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Posted to users@cocoon.apache.org by Mansour Al Akeel <ma...@gmail.com> on 2012/11/08 05:14:25 UTC
Is cocoon dead ?
As of today the page
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/cocoon/cocoon3/trunk/ shows that the most
recent changes were 6 weeks ago.
Is there any activity or plans to continue developing cocoon ?
Index of /cocoon/cocoon3/trunk
Files shown: 7
Directory revision: 1389975 (of 1406915)
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Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Posted by Bart Remmerie <re...@gmail.com>.
Hi Robby & others,
I'm not judging the steps that have been taken. I'm just wondering why
there was such a decline in active community.
IMHO, moving to Maven, 2.2 and 3.0 make sense,
but there's something missing that you need if you want to keep your
userbase broad & involved: decent documentation and an acceptable learning
curve !
And remember, an autopsy has a function: learn from previous mistakes.
Bart
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 9:40 PM, Robby Pelssers <Ro...@nxp.com>wrote:
> Hi Bart,
>
> I'd say we've learned people are reluctant to change.. even developers.
> But to be honest.. it was C2.2 forcing me to learn maven and I've been
> using it ever since for all new projects. Same holds true for Spring
> actually. And where I could understand the drop back then, maven or Spring
> can hardly be considered to be valid reasons not to use newer versions of
> Cocoon.
>
> I think I can agree on two things:
> C2.1 and C2.2 are pretty complete in what they have to offer. They are
> also pretty well documented. But most advanced users have moved to C2.2 or
> C3 and can't offer good support for the older versions. I guess it's the
> developers own responsibility to (NOT?) upgrade on a regular basis and
> dealing with corresponding consequences of his choice.
>
> C3 is already used in production and in my opinion easier to use. The
> biggest problem is it's still coined alpha. We should really focus on
> getting c3 1.0 out which will give users a more confident feeling API's
> won't break that easily.
>
> Robby
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bart Remmerie [mailto:remmerie@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 9:21 PM
> To: users@cocoon.apache.org
> Cc: users@cocoon.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Is cocoon dead ?
>
> Just being critical & analytical: where die we observe the big drop in
> community activity ? Switch to Maven & move from 2.1.11 to next version ?
> (just a guess) => What can we learn from this ?
>
> Bart Remmerie
>
> Op 11-nov.-2012 om 18:13 heeft Michael Müller <
> michael.mueller@mueller-bruehl.de> het volgende geschreven:
>
> > Francesco,
> >
> > I observe this list for years now (since I started using Cocon 2.1). And
> I recongnized some activities, especially from you. But since a couple of
> years I'm using a) a different technology (JSF) for my web pages and b) I'm
> waiting for Cocoon 3.0 to become ready. Even there are some acitivies, it
> seems to be a never ending story.
> >
> > I guess it would be helpfull to schedule some dates for beta and
> release. If it is so much to do right now, maybe this version might be
> feature-reduced and some of the planned features will be postponed to a
> version 3.1? Otherwise I'm afraid this project is dead - even though there
> are some activities.
> >
> > If your horse is dead, don't try to ride it anymore. Change the horse.
> > (similar to Dakota saying)
> >
> > Herzliche Grüße - Best Regards,
> > Michael Müller
> >
> > Am 10.11.2012 14:00, schrieb Francesco Chicchiriccò:
> >> Hi all,
> >> I think e-mails like the one below are not helpful at all.
> >>
> >> First of all, even though most of critical aspects of our current
> >> situation are reported, some things are barely wrong:
> >>
> >>> down the same page you find the next most recent news is a year and
> >>> a half old
> >> Open your favorite browser at http://cocoon.apache.org/ and read that
> >> latest two news are dated July 2nd and March 3rd 2012
> >>
> >>> When people ask about C2.x (and the latest released version is 2.2)
> >>> nobody wants to talk about it (except others desperate for
> >>> information about some aspect of C2);
> >> Just browse http://cocoon.markmail.org and judge by yourself whether
> >> this is true or not.
> >>
> >>> There are no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a decade
> old.
> >> Just point again your favorite browser to
> >> http://www.apache.org/dist/cocoon/ and you will see that Cocoon
> >> 2.1.11 was released on Jan 14th 2008.
> >>
> >>> Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or skeletal,
> and the only people who know the inside of Cocoon well enough to complete
> it keep asking others to do that.
> >> This is absolutely false for C2.X and only partially true for C3.
> >>
> >> Beware, I am not stating that the Cocoon status is healthy, new
> >> releases with bugfixes and new features are regularly made available
> >> and documentation is accurate and complete.
> >> I am only trying to look at the Cocoon project for what it is
> >> *today*: a project with:
> >> * very few active committers
> >> * almost no occasional contributors
> >> * still a lot of interested people: most because they are running an
> >> ancient Cocoon version, few because they've heard of Cocoon only
> >> recently
> >>
> >> In my opinion, a dead project is a project in which no one is
> >> interested, and Cocoon is not (yet?) that far.
> >>
> >> Remembering that Cocoon - like as any other project at ASF - is
> >> exclusively made up by volunteer contribution, I'd rather start a
> >> [DISCUSS] thread to see what needs to be done and who is available to
> >> help instead of such acid and unproductive e-mails.
> >>
> >> WDYT?
> >>
> >> Regards.
> >>
> >> On 08/11/2012 15:10, Mark H. Wood wrote:
> >>> I'm not surprised at all. Looking 3cm. down the same page you find
> >>> the next most recent news is a year and a half old. When people ask
> >>> about C2.x (and the latest released version is 2.2) nobody wants to
> >>> talk about it (except others desperate for information about some
> >>> aspect of C2); one is told to use C3. C3 has been alpha for perhaps
> >>> two years -- there is as yet no beta, let alone a release. There
> >>> are no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a decade old.
> >>> Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or skeletal,
> >>> and the only people who know the inside of Cocoon well enough to
> >>> complete it keep asking others to do that. Bugs with patches
> >>> attached languish for years. Seemingly everyone using Cocoon is
> >>> running a unique local version with scads of patches that are passed
> >>> around like ancient lore.
> >>>
> >>> Why would anyone think Cocoon is dead?
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@cocoon.apache.org
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@cocoon.apache.org
>
>
>
--
Bart Remmerie
+32 (0477) 78.88.76
remmerie@gmail.com
RE: Is cocoon dead ?
Posted by Robby Pelssers <Ro...@nxp.com>.
Hi Bart,
I'd say we've learned people are reluctant to change.. even developers. But to be honest.. it was C2.2 forcing me to learn maven and I've been using it ever since for all new projects. Same holds true for Spring actually. And where I could understand the drop back then, maven or Spring can hardly be considered to be valid reasons not to use newer versions of Cocoon.
I think I can agree on two things:
C2.1 and C2.2 are pretty complete in what they have to offer. They are also pretty well documented. But most advanced users have moved to C2.2 or C3 and can't offer good support for the older versions. I guess it's the developers own responsibility to (NOT?) upgrade on a regular basis and dealing with corresponding consequences of his choice.
C3 is already used in production and in my opinion easier to use. The biggest problem is it's still coined alpha. We should really focus on getting c3 1.0 out which will give users a more confident feeling API's won't break that easily.
Robby
-----Original Message-----
From: Bart Remmerie [mailto:remmerie@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 9:21 PM
To: users@cocoon.apache.org
Cc: users@cocoon.apache.org
Subject: Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Just being critical & analytical: where die we observe the big drop in community activity ? Switch to Maven & move from 2.1.11 to next version ? (just a guess) => What can we learn from this ?
Bart Remmerie
Op 11-nov.-2012 om 18:13 heeft Michael Müller <mi...@mueller-bruehl.de> het volgende geschreven:
> Francesco,
>
> I observe this list for years now (since I started using Cocon 2.1). And I recongnized some activities, especially from you. But since a couple of years I'm using a) a different technology (JSF) for my web pages and b) I'm waiting for Cocoon 3.0 to become ready. Even there are some acitivies, it seems to be a never ending story.
>
> I guess it would be helpfull to schedule some dates for beta and release. If it is so much to do right now, maybe this version might be feature-reduced and some of the planned features will be postponed to a version 3.1? Otherwise I'm afraid this project is dead - even though there are some activities.
>
> If your horse is dead, don't try to ride it anymore. Change the horse.
> (similar to Dakota saying)
>
> Herzliche Grüße - Best Regards,
> Michael Müller
>
> Am 10.11.2012 14:00, schrieb Francesco Chicchiriccò:
>> Hi all,
>> I think e-mails like the one below are not helpful at all.
>>
>> First of all, even though most of critical aspects of our current
>> situation are reported, some things are barely wrong:
>>
>>> down the same page you find the next most recent news is a year and
>>> a half old
>> Open your favorite browser at http://cocoon.apache.org/ and read that
>> latest two news are dated July 2nd and March 3rd 2012
>>
>>> When people ask about C2.x (and the latest released version is 2.2)
>>> nobody wants to talk about it (except others desperate for
>>> information about some aspect of C2);
>> Just browse http://cocoon.markmail.org and judge by yourself whether
>> this is true or not.
>>
>>> There are no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a decade old.
>> Just point again your favorite browser to
>> http://www.apache.org/dist/cocoon/ and you will see that Cocoon
>> 2.1.11 was released on Jan 14th 2008.
>>
>>> Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or skeletal, and the only people who know the inside of Cocoon well enough to complete it keep asking others to do that.
>> This is absolutely false for C2.X and only partially true for C3.
>>
>> Beware, I am not stating that the Cocoon status is healthy, new
>> releases with bugfixes and new features are regularly made available
>> and documentation is accurate and complete.
>> I am only trying to look at the Cocoon project for what it is
>> *today*: a project with:
>> * very few active committers
>> * almost no occasional contributors
>> * still a lot of interested people: most because they are running an
>> ancient Cocoon version, few because they've heard of Cocoon only
>> recently
>>
>> In my opinion, a dead project is a project in which no one is
>> interested, and Cocoon is not (yet?) that far.
>>
>> Remembering that Cocoon - like as any other project at ASF - is
>> exclusively made up by volunteer contribution, I'd rather start a
>> [DISCUSS] thread to see what needs to be done and who is available to
>> help instead of such acid and unproductive e-mails.
>>
>> WDYT?
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>> On 08/11/2012 15:10, Mark H. Wood wrote:
>>> I'm not surprised at all. Looking 3cm. down the same page you find
>>> the next most recent news is a year and a half old. When people ask
>>> about C2.x (and the latest released version is 2.2) nobody wants to
>>> talk about it (except others desperate for information about some
>>> aspect of C2); one is told to use C3. C3 has been alpha for perhaps
>>> two years -- there is as yet no beta, let alone a release. There
>>> are no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a decade old.
>>> Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or skeletal,
>>> and the only people who know the inside of Cocoon well enough to
>>> complete it keep asking others to do that. Bugs with patches
>>> attached languish for years. Seemingly everyone using Cocoon is
>>> running a unique local version with scads of patches that are passed
>>> around like ancient lore.
>>>
>>> Why would anyone think Cocoon is dead?
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@cocoon.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Posted by Michael Müller <mi...@mueller-bruehl.de>.
...Activities for Cocoon 3 are much to little...
Missing 3 in my contribution. Just for clarification.
Herzliche Grüße - Best Regards,
Michael Müller
Am 11.11.2012 21:42, schrieb Michael Müller:
> Bart,
>
> If you guess, Maven is a problem, I second you. Maven might be great
> from the developer's view. But a poor (cocoon) user perfers just a
> simple setup. Thus Maven might scare users - and it did, when I tried
> the new version apx. 5 or 6 years ago.
>
> But from my point of view, tinker on a new realease for such a long
> time, is the really problem. Cocoon 2 is mainly in maintenance state.
> Some users still run it, thus there are some activities. Activities
> for Cocoon are much to little. Neither beta version nor a release is
> on the horizon. If this can't be changed soon, I'll predict Cocoon (3)
> to die.
>
> Just my 2 cents...
>
> Herzliche Grüße - Best Regards,
> Michael Müller
>
> Am 11.11.2012 21:20, schrieb Bart Remmerie:
>> Just being critical & analytical: where die we observe the big drop
>> in community activity ? Switch to Maven & move from 2.1.11 to next
>> version ? (just a guess) => What can we learn from this ?
>>
>> Bart Remmerie
>>
>> Op 11-nov.-2012 om 18:13 heeft Michael Müller
>> <mi...@mueller-bruehl.de> het volgende geschreven:
>>
>>> Francesco,
>>>
>>> I observe this list for years now (since I started using Cocon 2.1).
>>> And I recongnized some activities, especially from you. But since a
>>> couple of years I'm using a) a different technology (JSF) for my web
>>> pages and b) I'm waiting for Cocoon 3.0 to become ready. Even there
>>> are some acitivies, it seems to be a never ending story.
>>>
>>> I guess it would be helpfull to schedule some dates for beta and
>>> release. If it is so much to do right now, maybe this version might
>>> be feature-reduced and some of the planned features will be
>>> postponed to a version 3.1? Otherwise I'm afraid this project is
>>> dead - even though there are some activities.
>>>
>>> If your horse is dead, don't try to ride it anymore. Change the
>>> horse. (similar to Dakota saying)
>>>
>>> Herzliche Grüße - Best Regards,
>>> Michael Müller
>>>
>>> Am 10.11.2012 14:00, schrieb Francesco Chicchiriccò:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>> I think e-mails like the one below are not helpful at all.
>>>>
>>>> First of all, even though most of critical aspects of our current
>>>> situation are reported, some things are barely wrong:
>>>>
>>>>> down the same page you find the next most recent news is a year and a
>>>>> half old
>>>> Open your favorite browser at http://cocoon.apache.org/ and read that
>>>> latest two news are dated July 2nd and March 3rd 2012
>>>>
>>>>> When people ask about C2.x (and the latest released version is
>>>>> 2.2) nobody wants to talk about it (except others desperate for
>>>>> information about some aspect of C2);
>>>> Just browse http://cocoon.markmail.org and judge by yourself whether
>>>> this is true or not.
>>>>
>>>>> There are no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a
>>>>> decade old.
>>>> Just point again your favorite browser to
>>>> http://www.apache.org/dist/cocoon/ and you will see that Cocoon 2.1.11
>>>> was released on Jan 14th 2008.
>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or
>>>>> skeletal, and the only people who know the inside of Cocoon well
>>>>> enough to complete it keep asking others to do that.
>>>> This is absolutely false for C2.X and only partially true for C3.
>>>>
>>>> Beware, I am not stating that the Cocoon status is healthy, new
>>>> releases
>>>> with bugfixes and new features are regularly made available and
>>>> documentation is accurate and complete.
>>>> I am only trying to look at the Cocoon project for what it is
>>>> *today*: a
>>>> project with:
>>>> * very few active committers
>>>> * almost no occasional contributors
>>>> * still a lot of interested people: most because they are running an
>>>> ancient Cocoon version, few because they've heard of Cocoon only
>>>> recently
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion, a dead project is a project in which no one is
>>>> interested, and Cocoon is not (yet?) that far.
>>>>
>>>> Remembering that Cocoon - like as any other project at ASF - is
>>>> exclusively made up by volunteer contribution, I'd rather start a
>>>> [DISCUSS] thread to see what needs to be done and who is available to
>>>> help instead of such acid and unproductive e-mails.
>>>>
>>>> WDYT?
>>>>
>>>> Regards.
>>>>
>>>> On 08/11/2012 15:10, Mark H. Wood wrote:
>>>>> I'm not surprised at all. Looking 3cm. down the same page you find
>>>>> the next most recent news is a year and a half old. When people ask
>>>>> about C2.x (and the latest released version is 2.2) nobody wants to
>>>>> talk about it (except others desperate for information about some
>>>>> aspect of C2); one is told to use C3. C3 has been alpha for perhaps
>>>>> two years -- there is as yet no beta, let alone a release. There are
>>>>> no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a decade old.
>>>>> Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or skeletal,
>>>>> and the only people who know the inside of Cocoon well enough to
>>>>> complete it keep asking others to do that. Bugs with patches
>>>>> attached
>>>>> languish for years. Seemingly everyone using Cocoon is running a
>>>>> unique local version with scads of patches that are passed around
>>>>> like
>>>>> ancient lore.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would anyone think Cocoon is dead?
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@cocoon.apache.org
>>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@cocoon.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@cocoon.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Posted by Michael Müller <mi...@mueller-bruehl.de>.
Bart,
If you guess, Maven is a problem, I second you. Maven might be great
from the developer's view. But a poor (cocoon) user perfers just a
simple setup. Thus Maven might scare users - and it did, when I tried
the new version apx. 5 or 6 years ago.
But from my point of view, tinker on a new realease for such a long
time, is the really problem. Cocoon 2 is mainly in maintenance state.
Some users still run it, thus there are some activities. Activities for
Cocoon are much to little. Neither beta version nor a release is on the
horizon. If this can't be changed soon, I'll predict Cocoon (3) to die.
Just my 2 cents...
Herzliche Grüße - Best Regards,
Michael Müller
Am 11.11.2012 21:20, schrieb Bart Remmerie:
> Just being critical & analytical: where die we observe the big drop in community activity ? Switch to Maven & move from 2.1.11 to next version ? (just a guess) => What can we learn from this ?
>
> Bart Remmerie
>
> Op 11-nov.-2012 om 18:13 heeft Michael Müller <mi...@mueller-bruehl.de> het volgende geschreven:
>
>> Francesco,
>>
>> I observe this list for years now (since I started using Cocon 2.1). And I recongnized some activities, especially from you. But since a couple of years I'm using a) a different technology (JSF) for my web pages and b) I'm waiting for Cocoon 3.0 to become ready. Even there are some acitivies, it seems to be a never ending story.
>>
>> I guess it would be helpfull to schedule some dates for beta and release. If it is so much to do right now, maybe this version might be feature-reduced and some of the planned features will be postponed to a version 3.1? Otherwise I'm afraid this project is dead - even though there are some activities.
>>
>> If your horse is dead, don't try to ride it anymore. Change the horse. (similar to Dakota saying)
>>
>> Herzliche Grüße - Best Regards,
>> Michael Müller
>>
>> Am 10.11.2012 14:00, schrieb Francesco Chicchiriccò:
>>> Hi all,
>>> I think e-mails like the one below are not helpful at all.
>>>
>>> First of all, even though most of critical aspects of our current
>>> situation are reported, some things are barely wrong:
>>>
>>>> down the same page you find the next most recent news is a year and a
>>>> half old
>>> Open your favorite browser at http://cocoon.apache.org/ and read that
>>> latest two news are dated July 2nd and March 3rd 2012
>>>
>>>> When people ask about C2.x (and the latest released version is 2.2) nobody wants to talk about it (except others desperate for information about some aspect of C2);
>>> Just browse http://cocoon.markmail.org and judge by yourself whether
>>> this is true or not.
>>>
>>>> There are no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a decade old.
>>> Just point again your favorite browser to
>>> http://www.apache.org/dist/cocoon/ and you will see that Cocoon 2.1.11
>>> was released on Jan 14th 2008.
>>>
>>>> Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or skeletal, and the only people who know the inside of Cocoon well enough to complete it keep asking others to do that.
>>> This is absolutely false for C2.X and only partially true for C3.
>>>
>>> Beware, I am not stating that the Cocoon status is healthy, new releases
>>> with bugfixes and new features are regularly made available and
>>> documentation is accurate and complete.
>>> I am only trying to look at the Cocoon project for what it is *today*: a
>>> project with:
>>> * very few active committers
>>> * almost no occasional contributors
>>> * still a lot of interested people: most because they are running an
>>> ancient Cocoon version, few because they've heard of Cocoon only recently
>>>
>>> In my opinion, a dead project is a project in which no one is
>>> interested, and Cocoon is not (yet?) that far.
>>>
>>> Remembering that Cocoon - like as any other project at ASF - is
>>> exclusively made up by volunteer contribution, I'd rather start a
>>> [DISCUSS] thread to see what needs to be done and who is available to
>>> help instead of such acid and unproductive e-mails.
>>>
>>> WDYT?
>>>
>>> Regards.
>>>
>>> On 08/11/2012 15:10, Mark H. Wood wrote:
>>>> I'm not surprised at all. Looking 3cm. down the same page you find
>>>> the next most recent news is a year and a half old. When people ask
>>>> about C2.x (and the latest released version is 2.2) nobody wants to
>>>> talk about it (except others desperate for information about some
>>>> aspect of C2); one is told to use C3. C3 has been alpha for perhaps
>>>> two years -- there is as yet no beta, let alone a release. There are
>>>> no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a decade old.
>>>> Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or skeletal,
>>>> and the only people who know the inside of Cocoon well enough to
>>>> complete it keep asking others to do that. Bugs with patches attached
>>>> languish for years. Seemingly everyone using Cocoon is running a
>>>> unique local version with scads of patches that are passed around like
>>>> ancient lore.
>>>>
>>>> Why would anyone think Cocoon is dead?
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@cocoon.apache.org
>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@cocoon.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Posted by Bart Remmerie <re...@gmail.com>.
Just being critical & analytical: where die we observe the big drop in community activity ? Switch to Maven & move from 2.1.11 to next version ? (just a guess) => What can we learn from this ?
Bart Remmerie
Op 11-nov.-2012 om 18:13 heeft Michael Müller <mi...@mueller-bruehl.de> het volgende geschreven:
> Francesco,
>
> I observe this list for years now (since I started using Cocon 2.1). And I recongnized some activities, especially from you. But since a couple of years I'm using a) a different technology (JSF) for my web pages and b) I'm waiting for Cocoon 3.0 to become ready. Even there are some acitivies, it seems to be a never ending story.
>
> I guess it would be helpfull to schedule some dates for beta and release. If it is so much to do right now, maybe this version might be feature-reduced and some of the planned features will be postponed to a version 3.1? Otherwise I'm afraid this project is dead - even though there are some activities.
>
> If your horse is dead, don't try to ride it anymore. Change the horse. (similar to Dakota saying)
>
> Herzliche Grüße - Best Regards,
> Michael Müller
>
> Am 10.11.2012 14:00, schrieb Francesco Chicchiriccò:
>> Hi all,
>> I think e-mails like the one below are not helpful at all.
>>
>> First of all, even though most of critical aspects of our current
>> situation are reported, some things are barely wrong:
>>
>>> down the same page you find the next most recent news is a year and a
>>> half old
>> Open your favorite browser at http://cocoon.apache.org/ and read that
>> latest two news are dated July 2nd and March 3rd 2012
>>
>>> When people ask about C2.x (and the latest released version is 2.2) nobody wants to talk about it (except others desperate for information about some aspect of C2);
>> Just browse http://cocoon.markmail.org and judge by yourself whether
>> this is true or not.
>>
>>> There are no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a decade old.
>> Just point again your favorite browser to
>> http://www.apache.org/dist/cocoon/ and you will see that Cocoon 2.1.11
>> was released on Jan 14th 2008.
>>
>>> Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or skeletal, and the only people who know the inside of Cocoon well enough to complete it keep asking others to do that.
>> This is absolutely false for C2.X and only partially true for C3.
>>
>> Beware, I am not stating that the Cocoon status is healthy, new releases
>> with bugfixes and new features are regularly made available and
>> documentation is accurate and complete.
>> I am only trying to look at the Cocoon project for what it is *today*: a
>> project with:
>> * very few active committers
>> * almost no occasional contributors
>> * still a lot of interested people: most because they are running an
>> ancient Cocoon version, few because they've heard of Cocoon only recently
>>
>> In my opinion, a dead project is a project in which no one is
>> interested, and Cocoon is not (yet?) that far.
>>
>> Remembering that Cocoon - like as any other project at ASF - is
>> exclusively made up by volunteer contribution, I'd rather start a
>> [DISCUSS] thread to see what needs to be done and who is available to
>> help instead of such acid and unproductive e-mails.
>>
>> WDYT?
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>> On 08/11/2012 15:10, Mark H. Wood wrote:
>>> I'm not surprised at all. Looking 3cm. down the same page you find
>>> the next most recent news is a year and a half old. When people ask
>>> about C2.x (and the latest released version is 2.2) nobody wants to
>>> talk about it (except others desperate for information about some
>>> aspect of C2); one is told to use C3. C3 has been alpha for perhaps
>>> two years -- there is as yet no beta, let alone a release. There are
>>> no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a decade old.
>>> Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or skeletal,
>>> and the only people who know the inside of Cocoon well enough to
>>> complete it keep asking others to do that. Bugs with patches attached
>>> languish for years. Seemingly everyone using Cocoon is running a
>>> unique local version with scads of patches that are passed around like
>>> ancient lore.
>>>
>>> Why would anyone think Cocoon is dead?
>
>
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Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Posted by "Mark H. Wood" <mw...@IUPUI.Edu>.
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 10:28:39AM +0100, Francesco Chicchiriccò wrote:
> Hi all,
> for anyone interested more in contributing for make things change rather
> than ranting about autopsy and post-mortem status, I'd strongly suggest
> to take a look at [1], if need subscribe to dev@ ML, and join the
> discussion there.
>
> Regards.
>
> [1] http://markmail.org/message/n3xt6yio6vikanuh
Thank you. I've read that thread and am encouraged.
If I find something I can contribute, I surely will. I want Cocoon to
prosper: I'm invested in a project that is heavily dependent on
Cocoon. I've tried several times to find the place to start reading
the code, and never found it. Maybe it's time to try again.
--
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer mwood@IUPUI.Edu
Asking whether markets are efficient is like asking whether people are smart.
Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Posted by Francesco Chicchiriccò <il...@apache.org>.
Hi all,
for anyone interested more in contributing for make things change rather
than ranting about autopsy and post-mortem status, I'd strongly suggest
to take a look at [1], if need subscribe to dev@ ML, and join the
discussion there.
Regards.
[1] http://markmail.org/message/n3xt6yio6vikanuh
--
Francesco Chicchiriccò
ASF Member, Apache Cocoon PMC and Apache Syncope PPMC Member
http://people.apache.org/~ilgrosso/
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Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Posted by Michael Müller <mi...@mueller-bruehl.de>.
Francesco,
I observe this list for years now (since I started using Cocon 2.1). And
I recongnized some activities, especially from you. But since a couple
of years I'm using a) a different technology (JSF) for my web pages and
b) I'm waiting for Cocoon 3.0 to become ready. Even there are some
acitivies, it seems to be a never ending story.
I guess it would be helpfull to schedule some dates for beta and
release. If it is so much to do right now, maybe this version might be
feature-reduced and some of the planned features will be postponed to a
version 3.1? Otherwise I'm afraid this project is dead - even though
there are some activities.
If your horse is dead, don't try to ride it anymore. Change the horse.
(similar to Dakota saying)
Herzliche Grüße - Best Regards,
Michael Müller
Am 10.11.2012 14:00, schrieb Francesco Chicchiriccò:
> Hi all,
> I think e-mails like the one below are not helpful at all.
>
> First of all, even though most of critical aspects of our current
> situation are reported, some things are barely wrong:
>
>> down the same page you find the next most recent news is a year and a
>> half old
> Open your favorite browser at http://cocoon.apache.org/ and read that
> latest two news are dated July 2nd and March 3rd 2012
>
>> When people ask about C2.x (and the latest released version is 2.2) nobody wants to talk about it (except others desperate for information about some aspect of C2);
> Just browse http://cocoon.markmail.org and judge by yourself whether
> this is true or not.
>
>> There are no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a decade old.
> Just point again your favorite browser to
> http://www.apache.org/dist/cocoon/ and you will see that Cocoon 2.1.11
> was released on Jan 14th 2008.
>
>> Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or skeletal, and the only people who know the inside of Cocoon well enough to complete it keep asking others to do that.
> This is absolutely false for C2.X and only partially true for C3.
>
> Beware, I am not stating that the Cocoon status is healthy, new releases
> with bugfixes and new features are regularly made available and
> documentation is accurate and complete.
> I am only trying to look at the Cocoon project for what it is *today*: a
> project with:
> * very few active committers
> * almost no occasional contributors
> * still a lot of interested people: most because they are running an
> ancient Cocoon version, few because they've heard of Cocoon only recently
>
> In my opinion, a dead project is a project in which no one is
> interested, and Cocoon is not (yet?) that far.
>
> Remembering that Cocoon - like as any other project at ASF - is
> exclusively made up by volunteer contribution, I'd rather start a
> [DISCUSS] thread to see what needs to be done and who is available to
> help instead of such acid and unproductive e-mails.
>
> WDYT?
>
> Regards.
>
> On 08/11/2012 15:10, Mark H. Wood wrote:
>> I'm not surprised at all. Looking 3cm. down the same page you find
>> the next most recent news is a year and a half old. When people ask
>> about C2.x (and the latest released version is 2.2) nobody wants to
>> talk about it (except others desperate for information about some
>> aspect of C2); one is told to use C3. C3 has been alpha for perhaps
>> two years -- there is as yet no beta, let alone a release. There are
>> no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a decade old.
>> Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or skeletal,
>> and the only people who know the inside of Cocoon well enough to
>> complete it keep asking others to do that. Bugs with patches attached
>> languish for years. Seemingly everyone using Cocoon is running a
>> unique local version with scads of patches that are passed around like
>> ancient lore.
>>
>> Why would anyone think Cocoon is dead?
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Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Posted by Francesco Chicchiriccò <il...@apache.org>.
Hi all,
I think e-mails like the one below are not helpful at all.
First of all, even though most of critical aspects of our current
situation are reported, some things are barely wrong:
> down the same page you find the next most recent news is a year and a
> half old
Open your favorite browser at http://cocoon.apache.org/ and read that
latest two news are dated July 2nd and March 3rd 2012
> When people ask about C2.x (and the latest released version is 2.2) nobody wants to talk about it (except others desperate for information about some aspect of C2);
Just browse http://cocoon.markmail.org and judge by yourself whether
this is true or not.
> There are no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a decade old.
Just point again your favorite browser to
http://www.apache.org/dist/cocoon/ and you will see that Cocoon 2.1.11
was released on Jan 14th 2008.
> Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or skeletal, and the only people who know the inside of Cocoon well enough to complete it keep asking others to do that.
This is absolutely false for C2.X and only partially true for C3.
Beware, I am not stating that the Cocoon status is healthy, new releases
with bugfixes and new features are regularly made available and
documentation is accurate and complete.
I am only trying to look at the Cocoon project for what it is *today*: a
project with:
* very few active committers
* almost no occasional contributors
* still a lot of interested people: most because they are running an
ancient Cocoon version, few because they've heard of Cocoon only recently
In my opinion, a dead project is a project in which no one is
interested, and Cocoon is not (yet?) that far.
Remembering that Cocoon - like as any other project at ASF - is
exclusively made up by volunteer contribution, I'd rather start a
[DISCUSS] thread to see what needs to be done and who is available to
help instead of such acid and unproductive e-mails.
WDYT?
Regards.
On 08/11/2012 15:10, Mark H. Wood wrote:
> I'm not surprised at all. Looking 3cm. down the same page you find
> the next most recent news is a year and a half old. When people ask
> about C2.x (and the latest released version is 2.2) nobody wants to
> talk about it (except others desperate for information about some
> aspect of C2); one is told to use C3. C3 has been alpha for perhaps
> two years -- there is as yet no beta, let alone a release. There are
> no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a decade old.
> Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or skeletal,
> and the only people who know the inside of Cocoon well enough to
> complete it keep asking others to do that. Bugs with patches attached
> languish for years. Seemingly everyone using Cocoon is running a
> unique local version with scads of patches that are passed around like
> ancient lore.
>
> Why would anyone think Cocoon is dead?
--
Francesco Chicchiriccò
ASF Member, Apache Cocoon PMC and Apache Syncope PPMC Member
http://people.apache.org/~ilgrosso/
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Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Posted by "Mark H. Wood" <mw...@IUPUI.Edu>.
I'm not surprised at all. Looking 3cm. down the same page you find
the next most recent news is a year and a half old. When people ask
about C2.x (and the latest released version is 2.2) nobody wants to
talk about it (except others desperate for information about some
aspect of C2); one is told to use C3. C3 has been alpha for perhaps
two years -- there is as yet no beta, let alone a release. There are
no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a decade old.
Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or skeletal,
and the only people who know the inside of Cocoon well enough to
complete it keep asking others to do that. Bugs with patches attached
languish for years. Seemingly everyone using Cocoon is running a
unique local version with scads of patches that are passed around like
ancient lore.
Why would anyone think Cocoon is dead?
--
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer mwood@IUPUI.Edu
Asking whether markets are efficient is like asking whether people are smart.
Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Posted by Gintare Ragaisiene <gi...@gmail.com>.
I'm still getting Cocoon user list letter, please sign me out.
On 8 November 2012 15:10, Thorsten Scherler <sc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry for top posting but I am writing from ApacheCon from my tablet.
>
> I am suprised actually about the question since 6 weeks is not really a
> long time and more in the context that close to all active committers are
> ATM here in Sinsheim and had to prepare presentation, travelling, ...
>
> Any way we had a hackathon about the future of cocoon and we are planning
> to introduce OSGI support finally into cocoon. However that is not a
> trivial task and we need all the helping hands we can get.
>
> In codeBusters.es we are using cocoon in various big client projects since
> over 7 year and let me asure that we keep on using it. Never forget cocoon
> (the project) is now 14 years old and this makes it pretty mature.
>
> Having said all this we are welcome anybody who are willing to help and
> let me asure you that cocoon is here to stay and it is and always will be
> the swiss army knife of xml processing.
>
> salu2
>
> Thorsten Scherler <thorsten.at.apache.org>
> codeBusters S.L. - web based systems <consulting, training and solutions>
> http://www.codebusters.es
> On Nov 8, 2012 5:14 AM, "Mansour Al Akeel" <ma...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> As of today the page
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/cocoon/cocoon3/trunk/ shows that the most
>> recent changes were 6 weeks ago.
>> Is there any activity or plans to continue developing cocoon ?
>>
>>
>> Index of /cocoon/cocoon3/trunk
>> Files shown: 7
>> Directory revision: 1389975 (of 1406915)
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@cocoon.apache.org
>>
>>
Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <sc...@gmail.com>.
Sorry for top posting but I am writing from ApacheCon from my tablet.
I am suprised actually about the question since 6 weeks is not really a
long time and more in the context that close to all active committers are
ATM here in Sinsheim and had to prepare presentation, travelling, ...
Any way we had a hackathon about the future of cocoon and we are planning
to introduce OSGI support finally into cocoon. However that is not a
trivial task and we need all the helping hands we can get.
In codeBusters.es we are using cocoon in various big client projects since
over 7 year and let me asure that we keep on using it. Never forget cocoon
(the project) is now 14 years old and this makes it pretty mature.
Having said all this we are welcome anybody who are willing to help and let
me asure you that cocoon is here to stay and it is and always will be the
swiss army knife of xml processing.
salu2
Thorsten Scherler <thorsten.at.apache.org>
codeBusters S.L. - web based systems <consulting, training and solutions>
http://www.codebusters.es
On Nov 8, 2012 5:14 AM, "Mansour Al Akeel" <ma...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> As of today the page
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/cocoon/cocoon3/trunk/ shows that the most
> recent changes were 6 weeks ago.
> Is there any activity or plans to continue developing cocoon ?
>
>
> Index of /cocoon/cocoon3/trunk
> Files shown: 7
> Directory revision: 1389975 (of 1406915)
>
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>
>
Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Posted by Francesco Chicchiriccò <il...@apache.org>.
On 08/11/2012 13:10, Daniel Smith wrote:
> Hmm.
> What needs to be done to complete it?
> Just wondering.
Just search for "TBW" in
http://cocoon.apache.org//3.0/reference/html-single/index.html ;-)
Regards.
> On 11/8/12, Francesco Chicchiriccò <il...@apache.org> wrote:
>> On 08/11/2012 12:55, Daniel Smith wrote:
>>> Franceso, is there any documentation anywhere detailing the
>>> differences in Cocoon 3, or advances etc?
>> You can find a short summary at [1] and the complete documentation -
>> still to be completed, any volunteer? - at [2]
>>
>>> An old list member from all the way back to the first Cocoon book, etc.
>> Cool :-)
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>> [1] http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/features.html
>> [2] http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/reference/index.html
>>
>> --
>> Francesco Chicchiriccò
>>
>> ASF Member, Apache Cocoon PMC and Apache Syncope PPMC Member
>> http://people.apache.org/~ilgrosso/
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@cocoon.apache.org
>>
>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
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>
--
Francesco Chicchiriccò
ASF Member, Apache Cocoon PMC and Apache Syncope PPMC Member
http://people.apache.org/~ilgrosso/
Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Posted by Daniel Smith <op...@gmail.com>.
Hmm.
What needs to be done to complete it?
Just wondering.
Dan
>:)
On 11/8/12, Francesco Chicchiriccò <il...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 08/11/2012 12:55, Daniel Smith wrote:
>> Franceso, is there any documentation anywhere detailing the
>> differences in Cocoon 3, or advances etc?
>
> You can find a short summary at [1] and the complete documentation -
> still to be completed, any volunteer? - at [2]
>
>> An old list member from all the way back to the first Cocoon book, etc.
>
> Cool :-)
>
> Regards.
>
> [1] http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/features.html
> [2] http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/reference/index.html
>
> --
> Francesco Chicchiriccò
>
> ASF Member, Apache Cocoon PMC and Apache Syncope PPMC Member
> http://people.apache.org/~ilgrosso/
>
>
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Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Posted by Francesco Chicchiriccò <il...@apache.org>.
On 08/11/2012 12:55, Daniel Smith wrote:
> Franceso, is there any documentation anywhere detailing the
> differences in Cocoon 3, or advances etc?
You can find a short summary at [1] and the complete documentation -
still to be completed, any volunteer? - at [2]
> An old list member from all the way back to the first Cocoon book, etc.
Cool :-)
Regards.
[1] http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/features.html
[2] http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/reference/index.html
--
Francesco Chicchiriccò
ASF Member, Apache Cocoon PMC and Apache Syncope PPMC Member
http://people.apache.org/~ilgrosso/
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AW: Is cocoon dead ?
Posted by "Kunisch, Arne" <a....@telekom.de>.
A good starting point would be the Cocoon Site itself.
http://cocoon.apache.org/2.2/index.html
http://cocoon.apache.org/2.2/1420_1_1.html
http://cocoon.apache.org/2.2/blocks/1204_1_1.html
http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/features.html
http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/roadmap.html
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Daniel Smith [mailto:opened.to@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 8. November 2012 12:55
An: users@cocoon.apache.org
Betreff: Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Franceso, is there any documentation anywhere detailing the differences in Cocoon 3, or advances etc?
Thanks so much.
An old list member from all the way back to the first Cocoon book, etc.
Dan Smith
On 11/8/12, Francesco Chicchiriccò <il...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 08/11/2012 05:14, Mansour Al Akeel wrote:
>> As of today the page
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/cocoon/cocoon3/trunk/ shows that the
>> most recent changes were 6 weeks ago.
>> Is there any activity or plans to continue developing cocoon ?
>
> Hi Mansour,
> unfortunately this question keeps popping up: just search
> cocoon.markmail.org and you'll find plenty of wise and proper replies.
>
> I would only add some updates on this:
> * AFAICT my company and Thorsten's are regularly making (part of )
> their business proposition on Cocoon 3;
> * here at ApacheCon EU 2012 there have been an hackaton and two talks
> mentioning (and introducing) Cocoon.
>
> If you want to leave an helping hand for Cocoon 2.X or 3, your
> contribution is heavily appreciated :-) Regards.
>
> --
> Francesco Chicchiriccò
>
> ASF Member, Apache Cocoon PMC and Apache Syncope PPMC Member
> http://people.apache.org/~ilgrosso/
>
>
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Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Posted by Daniel Smith <op...@gmail.com>.
Franceso, is there any documentation anywhere detailing the
differences in Cocoon 3, or advances etc?
Thanks so much.
An old list member from all the way back to the first Cocoon book, etc.
Dan Smith
On 11/8/12, Francesco Chicchiriccò <il...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 08/11/2012 05:14, Mansour Al Akeel wrote:
>> As of today the page
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/cocoon/cocoon3/trunk/ shows that the most
>> recent changes were 6 weeks ago.
>> Is there any activity or plans to continue developing cocoon ?
>
> Hi Mansour,
> unfortunately this question keeps popping up: just search
> cocoon.markmail.org and you'll find plenty of wise and proper replies.
>
> I would only add some updates on this:
> * AFAICT my company and Thorsten's are regularly making (part of )
> their business proposition on Cocoon 3;
> * here at ApacheCon EU 2012 there have been an hackaton and two talks
> mentioning (and introducing) Cocoon.
>
> If you want to leave an helping hand for Cocoon 2.X or 3, your
> contribution is heavily appreciated :-)
> Regards.
>
> --
> Francesco Chicchiriccò
>
> ASF Member, Apache Cocoon PMC and Apache Syncope PPMC Member
> http://people.apache.org/~ilgrosso/
>
>
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Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Posted by Francesco Chicchiriccò <il...@apache.org>.
On 08/11/2012 05:14, Mansour Al Akeel wrote:
> As of today the page
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/cocoon/cocoon3/trunk/ shows that the most
> recent changes were 6 weeks ago.
> Is there any activity or plans to continue developing cocoon ?
Hi Mansour,
unfortunately this question keeps popping up: just search
cocoon.markmail.org and you'll find plenty of wise and proper replies.
I would only add some updates on this:
* AFAICT my company and Thorsten's are regularly making (part of )
their business proposition on Cocoon 3;
* here at ApacheCon EU 2012 there have been an hackaton and two talks
mentioning (and introducing) Cocoon.
If you want to leave an helping hand for Cocoon 2.X or 3, your
contribution is heavily appreciated :-)
Regards.
--
Francesco Chicchiriccò
ASF Member, Apache Cocoon PMC and Apache Syncope PPMC Member
http://people.apache.org/~ilgrosso/
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