You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by ant elder <an...@gmail.com> on 2007/10/12 10:42:00 UTC
[VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
The Tuscany podling respectfully requests the Incubator to consider its
graduation to a Top Level Project.
While incubating Tuscany has made 14(!) releases, voted in 19 new
committers, survived conflicts, formed its PPMC, learned how to govern
itself, resolved licensing issues and an active community continues to grow
around Tuscany.
The community vote for graduation can be found on the Tuscany dev list at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg24675.html
We have prepared the resolution below to be presented for consideration at
the upcoming Board meeting.
We invite everyone to vote to approve this proposal.
Many thanks,
...ant
Establish the Apache Tuscany project:
WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
interests of the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's
purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged with
the creation and maintenance of open-source software that
simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented
applications and provides a managed service-oriented runtime
based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group,
for distribution at no charge to the public.
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management
Committee (PMC), to be known as the "Apache Tuscany Project",
be and hereby is established pursuant to Bylaws of the
Foundation; and be it further
RESOLVED, that the Apache Tuscany Project be and hereby is
responsible for the creation and maintenance of software
related to Apache Tuscany;
and be it further
RESOLVED, that the office of "Vice President, Apache Tuscany" be
and hereby is created, the person holding such office to
serve at the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair
of the Apache Tuscany Project, and to have primary responsibility
for management of the projects within the scope of
responsibility of the Apache Tuscany Project; and be it further
RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and
hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the
Apache Tuscany Project:
Adriano Crestani <adrianocrestani at apache dot org>
Andrew Borley <ajborley at apache dot org>
Andy Grove <agrove at apache dot org>
ant elder <antelder at apache dot org>
Brady Johnson <bjohnson at apache dot org>
Frank Budinsky <frankb at apache dot org>
Ignacio Silva-Lepe <isilval at apache dot org>
Jean-Sebastien Delfino <jsdelfino at apache dot org>
kelvin goodson <kelvingoodson at apache dot org>
Luciano Resende <lresende at apache dot org>
Mike Edwards <edwardsmj at apache dot org>
Pete Robbins <robbinspg at apache dot org>
Raymond Feng <rfeng at apache dot org>
Simon Laws <slaws at apache dot org>
Simon Nash <nash at apache dot org>
Venkata Krishnan <svkrish at apache dot org>
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Ant Elder
be appointed to the office of Vice President, Apache Tuscany, to
serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the
Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until
death, resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification,
or until a successor is appointed; and be it further
RESOLVED, that the Apache Tuscany Project be and hereby
is tasked with the migration and rationalization of the Apache
Incubator Tuscany podling; and be it further
RESOLVED, that all responsibilities pertaining to the Apache
Incubator Tuscany podling encumbered upon the Apache Incubator
Project are hereafter discharged.
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On 10/13/07, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...+1 for graduation, with these two edits....
Not sure if the vote is still going, but considering the current
discussions and uncertainty about community diversity, I change my
vote to a +0.
IMHO, our current "3 independent committers" rule needs to be refined
(see also the "Graduation: how do we check "three or more independent
committers" thread here).
-Bertrand
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On 10/12/07, Matthieu Riou <ma...@offthelip.org> wrote:
> +1 on graduation, with the two edits proposed by Mike...
+1 for graduation, with these two edits.
-Bertrand
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@offthelip.org>.
+1 on graduation, with the two edits proposed by Mike (comma before "based"
and "on but not limited to"). SOA is often used as a buzzword but it's also
unfortunately the only acronym available for that style of architecture.
Good luck guys!
On 10/12/07, Mike Edwards <mi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> Comments inline...
>
> Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> > <snip>
> >
> > On 10/12/07, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Establish the Apache Tuscany project:
> >>
> >> WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
> >> interests of the Foundation and consistent with the
> Foundation's
> >> purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged
> with
> >> the creation and maintenance of open-source software that
> >> simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented
> >> applications and provides a managed service-oriented runtime
> >> based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group,
> > ^^^^
> >> for distribution at no charge to the public.
> >
> > 1. is 'based' the right term?
> >
>
> We discussed this within the Tuscany project. The intent is to say that
> Tuscany will implement the SCA & SDO standards, without being limited to
> them. Tuscany today goes beyond what is in the standards - for example,
> there are implementations of things like XQuery, JSON, Ruby, none of
> which are (yet) in the standards. "Based on" is intended to give the
> flavour of implementing the standards and also going further.
>
>
> > 2. grrr SOA! i'm unclear what this really means in this case. though
> > i've been following the lists for quite a while now, i still find it
> > really hard to understand the target use cases are for tuscany. is it
> > possible to accurately describe what what tuscany is used for without
> > using buzzwords?
> >
>
> I must admit that I hadn't perceived "SOA" as a buzzword. I agree that
> it is a deliberately imprecise term, but that it does describe a general
> architectural approach to building applications. Do you think we need
> to build some paragraphs here that describe what service-oriented
> architecture means?
>
> As for the target use cases for Tuscany - it is when you want to build a
> distributed application from independently acting, loosely coupled
> service components, which may be written using any of a range of
> programming technologies (Java, C++, Ruby, PHP....) and which may be
> connected using any of a range of communication technologies (Web
> services, REST, JMS, RMI-IIOP....).
>
> > 3. is the definition a little ambiguous?
> >
> > ((simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented
> > applications) and (provides a managed service-oriented runtime))
> > based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group
> >
> > vs
> >
> > (simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented
> > applications) and ((provides a managed service-oriented runtime)
> > based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group)
> >
>
> It's the former and I think we can improve the text by adding a comma
> before "based".
>
> > 4. does tuscany really want to limit itself to a single standard? if
> > another organisation created standards in this same area, would
> > tuscany really wish to exclude itself from creating an implementation?
> >
>
> No, Tuscany does not want to limit itself - indeed it already uses other
> standards like some of the WS-* standards. We had thought that the
> wording above didn't imply any limitation, but if we're mistaken in that
> view, perhaps we need to add some explicit words like:
>
> "...based on but not limited to..."
>
> > - robert
> >
>
>
> Yours, Mike.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Venkata Krishnan <fo...@gmail.com>.
Seems ok with me too.
- Venkat
On 10/17/07, Simon Nash <na...@hursley.ibm.com> wrote:
>
>
> Luciano Resende wrote:
>
> > "...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
> > creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution
> > at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development,
> > deployment and management of distributed applications built as
> > compositions of service components, where the components may be written
> > using any of a wide range of programming languages and where the
> > components can be connected using any of a wide range of communication
> > technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards
> > including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the
> > OASIS OpenCSA member section."
> >
> >>From the paragraph above, should we use "...where the components may
> > be written using any of a wide range of technologies..." to allow for
> > script/dynamic languages, and other technologies such as BPEL, etc ?
> >
> I think changing "programming languages" to "technologies" is an
> improvement.
> This language would also encompass declarative components like XQuery.
>
> I wonder if we could shorten this just a little. How about:
>
> "...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation
> and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge
> to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management
> of distributed applications built as compositions of service components.
> These components may be implemented with a range of technologies and
> connected using a variety of communication protocols. This software will
> implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the
> SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section."
>
> Simon
>
> >
> > On 10/16/07, Jean-Sebastien Delfino <js...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >>Mike Edwards wrote:
> >>
> >>>Folks,
> >>>
> >>>ant elder wrote:
> >>><snip>
> >>>
> >>>>Having both the last two sentences start "This software will..."
> doesn't
> >>>>sound perfect to me so if we are able to move the "for distribution
> >>>>at no
> >>>>charge..." bit up to the top that seems better, which gives:
> >>>>
> >>>>...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
> >>>>creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution
> >>>>at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development,
> >>>>deployment and management of distributed applications composed of
> >>>>independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically heterogeneous
> >>>>components connected using any of a wide range of communication
> >>>>technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards
> >>>>including, but not limited to, standards defined by the OASIS
> >>>>OpenCSA group.
> >>>>
> >>>>That first sentence is starting to get quite long but unless anyone
> >>>>can come
> >>>>up with some better wording I could live with that.
> >>>>
> >>>> ...ant
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>I'm sorry, but I don't find this wording at all convincing. I suspect
> >>>that most people would be mystified by the section:
> >>>
> >>>"distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely
> >>>coupled, linguistically heterogeneous components connected using any
> >>>of a wide range of communication technologies"
> >>>
> >>>So, let me try another version, which turns out to be longer, but I
> >>>hope that it is easier to comprehend. I also explicitly mention SCA
> >>>and SDO since these are two core standards that are implemented by
> >>>Tuscany.
> >>>
> >>>"...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
> >>>creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution
> >>>at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development,
> >>>deployment and management of distributed applications built as
> >>>compositions of service components, where the components may be
> >>>written using any of a wide range of programming languages and where
> >>>the components can be connected using any of a wide range of
> >>>communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open
> >>>standards
> >>>including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by
> >>>the OASIS OpenCSA member section."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Yours, Mike.
> >>>
> >>
> >>This version looks better to me. I was a little mystified by the
> >>"linguistically heterogeneous" part as well :) I like the "built as
> >>compositions of service components" which describes well what we do in
> >>Tuscany and the fact that you explicitly mention the SCA and SDO
> standards.
> >>
> >>--
> >>Jean-Sebastien
> >>
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Mike Edwards <mi...@gmail.com>.
Folks,
ant elder wrote:
> On 10/17/07, Simon Nash <na...@hursley.ibm.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> I wonder if we could shorten this just a little. How about:
>> "...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation
>> and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge
>> to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management
>> of distributed applications built as compositions of service components.
>> These components may be implemented with a range of technologies and
>> connected using a variety of communication protocols. This software will
>> implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the
>> SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section."
>
>
> That sounds ok to me, is everyone else happy with these words?
>
> ...ant
>
Yes, fine with me.
Yours, Mike.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
For the record, I am voting -1 on graduation.
I do not feel that Tuscany has sufficient "real" diversity,
at this time, for graduation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by kelvin goodson <ke...@gmail.com>.
Looks good to me.
Kelvin.
On 18/10/2007, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/17/07, Simon Nash <na...@hursley.ibm.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> I wonder if we could shorten this just a little. How about:
> >
> > "...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation
> > and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge
> > to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management
> > of distributed applications built as compositions of service components.
> > These components may be implemented with a range of technologies and
> > connected using a variety of communication protocols. This software will
> > implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the
> > SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section."
>
>
> That sounds ok to me, is everyone else happy with these words?
>
> ...ant
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Simon Laws <si...@googlemail.com>.
On 10/18/07, Raymond Feng <en...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It looks pretty good to me.
>
> Thanks,
> Raymond
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ant elder" <an...@gmail.com>
> To: <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 4:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
>
>
> > On 10/17/07, Simon Nash <na...@hursley.ibm.com> wrote:
> > <snip>
> >
> > I wonder if we could shorten this just a little. How about:
> >>
> >> "...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation
> >> and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge
> >> to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and
> management
> >> of distributed applications built as compositions of service
> components.
> >> These components may be implemented with a range of technologies and
> >> connected using a variety of communication protocols. This software
> will
> >> implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the
> >> SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section."
> >
> >
> > That sounds ok to me, is everyone else happy with these words?
> >
> > ...ant
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
> Sounds ok to me.
Simon
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Raymond Feng <en...@gmail.com>.
It looks pretty good to me.
Thanks,
Raymond
----- Original Message -----
From: "ant elder" <an...@gmail.com>
To: <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
> On 10/17/07, Simon Nash <na...@hursley.ibm.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> I wonder if we could shorten this just a little. How about:
>>
>> "...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation
>> and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge
>> to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management
>> of distributed applications built as compositions of service components.
>> These components may be implemented with a range of technologies and
>> connected using a variety of communication protocols. This software will
>> implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the
>> SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section."
>
>
> That sounds ok to me, is everyone else happy with these words?
>
> ...ant
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On 10/17/07, Simon Nash <na...@hursley.ibm.com> wrote:
<snip>
I wonder if we could shorten this just a little. How about:
>
> "...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation
> and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge
> to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management
> of distributed applications built as compositions of service components.
> These components may be implemented with a range of technologies and
> connected using a variety of communication protocols. This software will
> implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the
> SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section."
That sounds ok to me, is everyone else happy with these words?
...ant
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Simon Nash <na...@hursley.ibm.com>.
Luciano Resende wrote:
> "...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
> creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution
> at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development,
> deployment and management of distributed applications built as
> compositions of service components, where the components may be written
> using any of a wide range of programming languages and where the
> components can be connected using any of a wide range of communication
> technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards
> including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the
> OASIS OpenCSA member section."
>
>>>From the paragraph above, should we use "...where the components may
> be written using any of a wide range of technologies..." to allow for
> script/dynamic languages, and other technologies such as BPEL, etc ?
>
I think changing "programming languages" to "technologies" is an improvement.
This language would also encompass declarative components like XQuery.
I wonder if we could shorten this just a little. How about:
"...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation
and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge
to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management
of distributed applications built as compositions of service components.
These components may be implemented with a range of technologies and
connected using a variety of communication protocols. This software will
implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the
SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section."
Simon
>
> On 10/16/07, Jean-Sebastien Delfino <js...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>Mike Edwards wrote:
>>
>>>Folks,
>>>
>>>ant elder wrote:
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>Having both the last two sentences start "This software will..." doesn't
>>>>sound perfect to me so if we are able to move the "for distribution
>>>>at no
>>>>charge..." bit up to the top that seems better, which gives:
>>>>
>>>>...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
>>>>creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution
>>>>at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development,
>>>>deployment and management of distributed applications composed of
>>>>independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically heterogeneous
>>>>components connected using any of a wide range of communication
>>>>technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards
>>>>including, but not limited to, standards defined by the OASIS
>>>>OpenCSA group.
>>>>
>>>>That first sentence is starting to get quite long but unless anyone
>>>>can come
>>>>up with some better wording I could live with that.
>>>>
>>>> ...ant
>>>>
>>>
>>>I'm sorry, but I don't find this wording at all convincing. I suspect
>>>that most people would be mystified by the section:
>>>
>>>"distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely
>>>coupled, linguistically heterogeneous components connected using any
>>>of a wide range of communication technologies"
>>>
>>>So, let me try another version, which turns out to be longer, but I
>>>hope that it is easier to comprehend. I also explicitly mention SCA
>>>and SDO since these are two core standards that are implemented by
>>>Tuscany.
>>>
>>>"...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
>>>creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution
>>>at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development,
>>>deployment and management of distributed applications built as
>>>compositions of service components, where the components may be
>>>written using any of a wide range of programming languages and where
>>>the components can be connected using any of a wide range of
>>>communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open
>>>standards
>>>including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by
>>>the OASIS OpenCSA member section."
>>>
>>>
>>>Yours, Mike.
>>>
>>
>>This version looks better to me. I was a little mystified by the
>>"linguistically heterogeneous" part as well :) I like the "built as
>>compositions of service components" which describes well what we do in
>>Tuscany and the fact that you explicitly mention the SCA and SDO standards.
>>
>>--
>>Jean-Sebastien
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>.
"...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution
at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development,
deployment and management of distributed applications built as
compositions of service components, where the components may be written
using any of a wide range of programming languages and where the
components can be connected using any of a wide range of communication
technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards
including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the
OASIS OpenCSA member section."
>From the paragraph above, should we use "...where the components may
be written using any of a wide range of technologies..." to allow for
script/dynamic languages, and other technologies such as BPEL, etc ?
On 10/16/07, Jean-Sebastien Delfino <js...@apache.org> wrote:
> Mike Edwards wrote:
> > Folks,
> >
> > ant elder wrote:
> > <snip>
> >>
> >> Having both the last two sentences start "This software will..." doesn't
> >> sound perfect to me so if we are able to move the "for distribution
> >> at no
> >> charge..." bit up to the top that seems better, which gives:
> >>
> >> ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
> >> creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution
> >> at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development,
> >> deployment and management of distributed applications composed of
> >> independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically heterogeneous
> >> components connected using any of a wide range of communication
> >> technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards
> >> including, but not limited to, standards defined by the OASIS
> >> OpenCSA group.
> >>
> >> That first sentence is starting to get quite long but unless anyone
> >> can come
> >> up with some better wording I could live with that.
> >>
> >> ...ant
> >>
> > I'm sorry, but I don't find this wording at all convincing. I suspect
> > that most people would be mystified by the section:
> >
> > "distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely
> > coupled, linguistically heterogeneous components connected using any
> > of a wide range of communication technologies"
> >
> > So, let me try another version, which turns out to be longer, but I
> > hope that it is easier to comprehend. I also explicitly mention SCA
> > and SDO since these are two core standards that are implemented by
> > Tuscany.
> >
> > "...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
> > creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution
> > at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development,
> > deployment and management of distributed applications built as
> > compositions of service components, where the components may be
> > written using any of a wide range of programming languages and where
> > the components can be connected using any of a wide range of
> > communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open
> > standards
> > including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by
> > the OASIS OpenCSA member section."
> >
> >
> > Yours, Mike.
> >
>
> This version looks better to me. I was a little mystified by the
> "linguistically heterogeneous" part as well :) I like the "built as
> compositions of service components" which describes well what we do in
> Tuscany and the fact that you explicitly mention the SCA and SDO standards.
>
> --
> Jean-Sebastien
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Luciano Resende
Apache Tuscany Committer
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://lresende.blogspot.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Jean-Sebastien Delfino <js...@apache.org>.
Mike Edwards wrote:
> Folks,
>
> ant elder wrote:
> <snip>
>>
>> Having both the last two sentences start "This software will..." doesn't
>> sound perfect to me so if we are able to move the "for distribution
>> at no
>> charge..." bit up to the top that seems better, which gives:
>>
>> ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
>> creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution
>> at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development,
>> deployment and management of distributed applications composed of
>> independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically heterogeneous
>> components connected using any of a wide range of communication
>> technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards
>> including, but not limited to, standards defined by the OASIS
>> OpenCSA group.
>>
>> That first sentence is starting to get quite long but unless anyone
>> can come
>> up with some better wording I could live with that.
>>
>> ...ant
>>
> I'm sorry, but I don't find this wording at all convincing. I suspect
> that most people would be mystified by the section:
>
> "distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely
> coupled, linguistically heterogeneous components connected using any
> of a wide range of communication technologies"
>
> So, let me try another version, which turns out to be longer, but I
> hope that it is easier to comprehend. I also explicitly mention SCA
> and SDO since these are two core standards that are implemented by
> Tuscany.
>
> "...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
> creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution
> at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development,
> deployment and management of distributed applications built as
> compositions of service components, where the components may be
> written using any of a wide range of programming languages and where
> the components can be connected using any of a wide range of
> communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open
> standards
> including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by
> the OASIS OpenCSA member section."
>
>
> Yours, Mike.
>
This version looks better to me. I was a little mystified by the
"linguistically heterogeneous" part as well :) I like the "built as
compositions of service components" which describes well what we do in
Tuscany and the fact that you explicitly mention the SCA and SDO standards.
--
Jean-Sebastien
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Mike Edwards <mi...@gmail.com>.
Folks,
ant elder wrote:
<snip>
>
> Having both the last two sentences start "This software will..." doesn't
> sound perfect to me so if we are able to move the "for distribution at no
> charge..." bit up to the top that seems better, which gives:
>
> ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
> creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution
> at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development,
> deployment and management of distributed applications composed of
> independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically heterogeneous
> components connected using any of a wide range of communication
> technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards
> including, but not limited to, standards defined by the OASIS
> OpenCSA group.
>
> That first sentence is starting to get quite long but unless anyone can come
> up with some better wording I could live with that.
>
> ...ant
>
I'm sorry, but I don't find this wording at all convincing. I suspect
that most people would be mystified by the section:
"distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely
coupled, linguistically heterogeneous components connected using any of
a wide range of communication technologies"
So, let me try another version, which turns out to be longer, but I hope
that it is easier to comprehend. I also explicitly mention SCA and SDO
since these are two core standards that are implemented by Tuscany.
"...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution
at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development,
deployment and management of distributed applications built as
compositions of service components, where the components may be written
using any of a wide range of programming languages and where the
components can be connected using any of a wide range of communication
technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards
including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the
OASIS OpenCSA member section."
Yours, Mike.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On 10/13/07, Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 10/13/07, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 10/13/07, Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > So bringing together all the comments so far gives something like:
> >
> > ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
> > creation and maintenance of open-source software that simplifies
> > the development, deployment and management of distributed
> > applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled,
> > linguistically hetrogenous components connected using any of a
> > wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement
> > relevant open standards including, but not limited to, standards defined
> > by the OASIS OpenCSA group, for distribution at no charge to the public.
>
> the concatination makes last sentence is a little ambiguous. might be
> better to either start another sentence
>
> > This software will implement
> > relevant open standards including, but not limited to, standards defined
> > by the OASIS OpenCSA group. This software will be distribution at no
> charge to the public.
>
> or move the phrase next to open source:
>
> > ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
> > creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no
> charge to the public
>
> maybe someone on the board could jump with guideance
>
> - robert
Having both the last two sentences start "This software will..." doesn't
sound perfect to me so if we are able to move the "for distribution at no
charge..." bit up to the top that seems better, which gives:
...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution
at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development,
deployment and management of distributed applications composed of
independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically heterogeneous
components connected using any of a wide range of communication
technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards
including, but not limited to, standards defined by the OASIS
OpenCSA group.
That first sentence is starting to get quite long but unless anyone can come
up with some better wording I could live with that.
...ant
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On 10/13/07, Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/13/07, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 10/13/07, Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > So bringing together all the comments so far gives something like:
> >
> > ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
> > creation and maintenance of open-source software that simplifies
> > the development, deployment and management of distributed
> > applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled,
> > linguistically hetrogenous components connected using any of a
> > wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement
> > relevant open standards including, but not limited to, standards defined
> > by the OASIS OpenCSA group, for distribution at no charge to the public.
>
> the concatination makes last sentence is a little ambiguous. might be
> better to either start another sentence
it's wonderfully ironic that my grammar critique is not a sentence (or
at least, not in english)
- robert
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On 10/13/07, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/13/07, Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
> So bringing together all the comments so far gives something like:
>
> ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
> creation and maintenance of open-source software that simplifies
> the development, deployment and management of distributed
> applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled,
> linguistically hetrogenous components connected using any of a
> wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement
> relevant open standards including, but not limited to, standards defined
> by the OASIS OpenCSA group, for distribution at no charge to the public.
the concatination makes last sentence is a little ambiguous. might be
better to either start another sentence
> This software will implement
> relevant open standards including, but not limited to, standards defined
> by the OASIS OpenCSA group. This software will be distribution at no charge to the public.
or move the phrase next to open source:
> ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
> creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public
maybe someone on the board could jump with guideance
- robert
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On 10/13/07, Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 10/12/07, Mike Edwards <mi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > On 10/12/07, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > > 2. grrr SOA! i'm unclear what this really means in this case. though
> > > i've been following the lists for quite a while now, i still find it
> > > really hard to understand the target use cases are for tuscany. is it
> > > possible to accurately describe what what tuscany is used for without
> > > using buzzwords?
> > >
> >
> > I must admit that I hadn't perceived "SOA" as a buzzword. I agree that
> > it is a deliberately imprecise term, but that it does describe a general
> > architectural approach to building applications. Do you think we need
> > to build some paragraphs here that describe what service-oriented
> > architecture means?
>
> the problem with meta-architectures is that most have no canonical
> definition or description and so the same term means different things
> to different people. once a meta-architecture gets hot, it leads to
> outbreaks of Humpty Dumpty syndrome - "When I use a word, it means
> exactly what I intend it to mean, no more, no less.". IMHO SOA has now
> reached this stage.
>
> > As for the target use cases for Tuscany - it is when you want to build a
> > distributed application from independently acting, loosely coupled
> > service components, which may be written using any of a range of
> > programming technologies (Java, C++, Ruby, PHP....) and which may be
> > connected using any of a range of communication technologies (Web
> > services, REST, JMS, RMI-IIOP....).
> ^^^^^
> some would say that SOA excludes REST. perhaps tuscany may (one day)
> want to wire up ROA as well as SOA ;-)
>
> anyway, tuscany simplifies the development, deployment and management
> of distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely
> coupled, linguistically hetrogenous components connected using any of
> a wide range of communication technologies
>
> maybe it would be better to state this unambiguously rather than
> relying on the correct interpretation of an ill-defined buzzword
>
> <snip>
>
> > > 4. does tuscany really want to limit itself to a single standard? if
> > > another organisation created standards in this same area, would
> > > tuscany really wish to exclude itself from creating an implementation?
> > >
> >
> > No, Tuscany does not want to limit itself - indeed it already uses other
> > standards like some of the WS-* standards. We had thought that the
> > wording above didn't imply any limitation, but if we're mistaken in that
> > view, perhaps we need to add some explicit words like:
> >
> > "...based on but not limited to..."
>
> 'based on' worries me - the language seems to me to be uncomfortably
> close to 'derived from'. it's also a long sentence. perhaps something
> like
>
> "Tuscany will implement relevant open standards including ..."
>
> would be better
>
> - robert
So bringing together all the comments so far gives something like:
...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
creation and maintenance of open-source software that simplifies
the development, deployment and management of distributed
applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled,
linguistically hetrogenous components connected using any of a
wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement
relevant open standards including, but not limited to, standards defined
by the OASIS OpenCSA group, for distribution at no charge to the public.
I'll wait a while to see if there's any further comments over this and if
not restart a clean vote thread.
...ant
RE: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> "Tuscany will implement relevant open standards including ..."
As previously noted, the core standards for Tuscany are SCA and SDO, with
others as desired by the community. What distinguishes Tuscany from
ServiceMix from Synapse is:
Tuscany: SCA / SDO
ServiceMix: JBI
Synapse: WSDL / SOAP
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On 10/12/07, Mike Edwards <mi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> > <snip>
> >
> > On 10/12/07, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
> > 2. grrr SOA! i'm unclear what this really means in this case. though
> > i've been following the lists for quite a while now, i still find it
> > really hard to understand the target use cases are for tuscany. is it
> > possible to accurately describe what what tuscany is used for without
> > using buzzwords?
> >
>
> I must admit that I hadn't perceived "SOA" as a buzzword. I agree that
> it is a deliberately imprecise term, but that it does describe a general
> architectural approach to building applications. Do you think we need
> to build some paragraphs here that describe what service-oriented
> architecture means?
the problem with meta-architectures is that most have no canonical
definition or description and so the same term means different things
to different people. once a meta-architecture gets hot, it leads to
outbreaks of Humpty Dumpty syndrome - "When I use a word, it means
exactly what I intend it to mean, no more, no less.". IMHO SOA has now
reached this stage.
> As for the target use cases for Tuscany - it is when you want to build a
> distributed application from independently acting, loosely coupled
> service components, which may be written using any of a range of
> programming technologies (Java, C++, Ruby, PHP....) and which may be
> connected using any of a range of communication technologies (Web
> services, REST, JMS, RMI-IIOP....).
^^^^^
some would say that SOA excludes REST. perhaps tuscany may (one day)
want to wire up ROA as well as SOA ;-)
anyway, tuscany simplifies the development, deployment and management
of distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely
coupled, linguistically hetrogenous components connected using any of
a wide range of communication technologies
maybe it would be better to state this unambiguously rather than
relying on the correct interpretation of an ill-defined buzzword
<snip>
> > 4. does tuscany really want to limit itself to a single standard? if
> > another organisation created standards in this same area, would
> > tuscany really wish to exclude itself from creating an implementation?
> >
>
> No, Tuscany does not want to limit itself - indeed it already uses other
> standards like some of the WS-* standards. We had thought that the
> wording above didn't imply any limitation, but if we're mistaken in that
> view, perhaps we need to add some explicit words like:
>
> "...based on but not limited to..."
'based on' worries me - the language seems to me to be uncomfortably
close to 'derived from'. it's also a long sentence. perhaps something
like
"Tuscany will implement relevant open standards including ..."
would be better
- robert
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Mike Edwards <mi...@gmail.com>.
Folks,
Comments inline...
Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> <snip>
>
> On 10/12/07, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Establish the Apache Tuscany project:
>>
>> WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
>> interests of the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's
>> purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged with
>> the creation and maintenance of open-source software that
>> simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented
>> applications and provides a managed service-oriented runtime
>> based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group,
> ^^^^
>> for distribution at no charge to the public.
>
> 1. is 'based' the right term?
>
We discussed this within the Tuscany project. The intent is to say that
Tuscany will implement the SCA & SDO standards, without being limited to
them. Tuscany today goes beyond what is in the standards - for example,
there are implementations of things like XQuery, JSON, Ruby, none of
which are (yet) in the standards. "Based on" is intended to give the
flavour of implementing the standards and also going further.
> 2. grrr SOA! i'm unclear what this really means in this case. though
> i've been following the lists for quite a while now, i still find it
> really hard to understand the target use cases are for tuscany. is it
> possible to accurately describe what what tuscany is used for without
> using buzzwords?
>
I must admit that I hadn't perceived "SOA" as a buzzword. I agree that
it is a deliberately imprecise term, but that it does describe a general
architectural approach to building applications. Do you think we need
to build some paragraphs here that describe what service-oriented
architecture means?
As for the target use cases for Tuscany - it is when you want to build a
distributed application from independently acting, loosely coupled
service components, which may be written using any of a range of
programming technologies (Java, C++, Ruby, PHP....) and which may be
connected using any of a range of communication technologies (Web
services, REST, JMS, RMI-IIOP....).
> 3. is the definition a little ambiguous?
>
> ((simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented
> applications) and (provides a managed service-oriented runtime))
> based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group
>
> vs
>
> (simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented
> applications) and ((provides a managed service-oriented runtime)
> based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group)
>
It's the former and I think we can improve the text by adding a comma
before "based".
> 4. does tuscany really want to limit itself to a single standard? if
> another organisation created standards in this same area, would
> tuscany really wish to exclude itself from creating an implementation?
>
No, Tuscany does not want to limit itself - indeed it already uses other
standards like some of the WS-* standards. We had thought that the
wording above didn't imply any limitation, but if we're mistaken in that
view, perhaps we need to add some explicit words like:
"...based on but not limited to..."
> - robert
>
Yours, Mike.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
<snip>
On 10/12/07, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Establish the Apache Tuscany project:
>
> WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
> interests of the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's
> purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged with
> the creation and maintenance of open-source software that
> simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented
> applications and provides a managed service-oriented runtime
> based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group,
^^^^
> for distribution at no charge to the public.
1. is 'based' the right term?
2. grrr SOA! i'm unclear what this really means in this case. though
i've been following the lists for quite a while now, i still find it
really hard to understand the target use cases are for tuscany. is it
possible to accurately describe what what tuscany is used for without
using buzzwords?
3. is the definition a little ambiguous?
((simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented
applications) and (provides a managed service-oriented runtime))
based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group
vs
(simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented
applications) and ((provides a managed service-oriented runtime)
based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group)
4. does tuscany really want to limit itself to a single standard? if
another organisation created standards in this same area, would
tuscany really wish to exclude itself from creating an implementation?
- robert
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
nt elder wrote:
> The Tuscany podling respectfully requests the Incubator to consider its
> graduation to a Top Level Project.
>
> While incubating Tuscany has made 14(!) releases, voted in 19 new
> committers, survived conflicts, formed its PPMC, learned how to govern
> itself, resolved licensing issues and an active community continues to grow
> around Tuscany.
>
> The community vote for graduation can be found on the Tuscany dev list at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg24675.html
+1 for graduation.
I respect the calls for finer analysis and stronger standards for diversity,
but I just don't see this holding up Tuscany's graduation.
If there were issues that Tuscany was failing to consider strong prospects for
committership and committee membership, that issue would fall on the board (as
with any ASF project). I trust they are not trying to preserve the status quo,
but actively seek new committers and new PMC members.
Bill
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On 10/12/07, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
some grammar queries
> Establish the Apache Tuscany project:
>
> WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
> interests of the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's
> purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged with
> the creation and maintenance of open-source software that
^^^^^^^
http://www.apache.org/foundation/records/certificate.html uses open source
> simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented
^^^^^^^^^^
> applications and provides a managed service-oriented runtime
^^^^^^^^^
which is right?
- robert
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On 10/12/07, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The Tuscany podling respectfully requests the Incubator to consider its
> graduation to a Top Level Project.
>
> While incubating Tuscany has made 14(!) releases, voted in 19 new
> committers, survived conflicts, formed its PPMC, learned how to govern
> itself, resolved licensing issues and an active community continues to grow
> around Tuscany.
>
> The community vote for graduation can be found on the Tuscany dev list at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg24675.html
>
>
> We have prepared the resolution below to be presented for consideration at
> the upcoming Board meeting.
>
> We invite everyone to vote to approve this proposal.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> ...ant
>
> Establish the Apache Tuscany project:
>
> WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
> interests of the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's
> purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged with
> the creation and maintenance of open-source software that
> simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented
> applications and provides a managed service-oriented runtime
> based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group,
> for distribution at no charge to the public.
>
> NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management
> Committee (PMC), to be known as the "Apache Tuscany Project",
> be and hereby is established pursuant to Bylaws of the
> Foundation; and be it further
>
> RESOLVED, that the Apache Tuscany Project be and hereby is
> responsible for the creation and maintenance of software
> related to Apache Tuscany;
> and be it further
>
> RESOLVED, that the office of "Vice President, Apache Tuscany" be
> and hereby is created, the person holding such office to
> serve at the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair
> of the Apache Tuscany Project, and to have primary responsibility
> for management of the projects within the scope of
> responsibility of the Apache Tuscany Project; and be it further
>
> RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and
> hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the
> Apache Tuscany Project:
>
> Adriano Crestani <adrianocrestani at apache dot
> org>
> Andrew Borley <ajborley at apache dot org>
> Andy Grove <agrove at apache dot org>
> ant elder <antelder at apache dot org>
> Brady Johnson <bjohnson at apache dot org>
> Frank Budinsky <frankb at apache dot org>
> Ignacio Silva-Lepe <isilval at apache dot org>
> Jean-Sebastien Delfino <jsdelfino at apache dot org>
> kelvin goodson <kelvingoodson at apache dot org>
> Luciano Resende <lresende at apache dot org>
> Mike Edwards <edwardsmj at apache dot org>
> Pete Robbins <robbinspg at apache dot org>
> Raymond Feng <rfeng at apache dot org>
> Simon Laws <slaws at apache dot org>
> Simon Nash <nash at apache dot org>
> Venkata Krishnan <svkrish at apache dot org>
>
> NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Ant Elder
> be appointed to the office of Vice President, Apache Tuscany, to
> serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the
> Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until
> death, resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification,
> or until a successor is appointed; and be it further
>
> RESOLVED, that the Apache Tuscany Project be and hereby
> is tasked with the migration and rationalization of the Apache
> Incubator Tuscany podling; and be it further
>
> RESOLVED, that all responsibilities pertaining to the Apache
> Incubator Tuscany podling encumbered upon the Apache Incubator
> Project are hereafter discharged.
>
>
Thanks to everyone who's commented on this thread. Looks like we've come up
with words that people are happy with but we shall hold off restarting the
vote till all the discussions around minimum diversity requirements reach
more consensus.
The latest words are:
"...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation
and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge
to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management
of distributed applications built as compositions of service components.
These components may be implemented with a range of technologies and
connected using a variety of communication protocols. This software will
implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the
SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section."
...ant
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
+1 (IPMC and ex-Mentor :)
-- dims
On 10/12/07, Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1 from me (IPMC and Mentor)
>
> Paul
>
> On 10/12/07, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The Tuscany podling respectfully requests the Incubator to consider its
> > graduation to a Top Level Project.
> >
> > While incubating Tuscany has made 14(!) releases, voted in 19 new
> > committers, survived conflicts, formed its PPMC, learned how to govern
> > itself, resolved licensing issues and an active community continues to grow
> > around Tuscany.
> >
> > The community vote for graduation can be found on the Tuscany dev list at:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg24675.html
> >
> > We have prepared the resolution below to be presented for consideration at
> > the upcoming Board meeting.
> >
> > We invite everyone to vote to approve this proposal.
> >
> > Many thanks,
> >
> > ...ant
> >
> > Establish the Apache Tuscany project:
> >
> > WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
> > interests of the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's
> > purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged with
> > the creation and maintenance of open-source software that
> > simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented
> > applications and provides a managed service-oriented runtime
> > based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group,
> > for distribution at no charge to the public.
> >
> > NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management
> > Committee (PMC), to be known as the "Apache Tuscany Project",
> > be and hereby is established pursuant to Bylaws of the
> > Foundation; and be it further
> >
> > RESOLVED, that the Apache Tuscany Project be and hereby is
> > responsible for the creation and maintenance of software
> > related to Apache Tuscany;
> > and be it further
> >
> > RESOLVED, that the office of "Vice President, Apache Tuscany" be
> > and hereby is created, the person holding such office to
> > serve at the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair
> > of the Apache Tuscany Project, and to have primary responsibility
> > for management of the projects within the scope of
> > responsibility of the Apache Tuscany Project; and be it further
> >
> > RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and
> > hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the
> > Apache Tuscany Project:
> >
> > Adriano Crestani <adrianocrestani at apache dot org>
> > Andrew Borley <ajborley at apache dot org>
> > Andy Grove <agrove at apache dot org>
> > ant elder <antelder at apache dot org>
> > Brady Johnson <bjohnson at apache dot org>
> > Frank Budinsky <frankb at apache dot org>
> > Ignacio Silva-Lepe <isilval at apache dot org>
> > Jean-Sebastien Delfino <jsdelfino at apache dot org>
> > kelvin goodson <kelvingoodson at apache dot org>
> > Luciano Resende <lresende at apache dot org>
> > Mike Edwards <edwardsmj at apache dot org>
> > Pete Robbins <robbinspg at apache dot org>
> > Raymond Feng <rfeng at apache dot org>
> > Simon Laws <slaws at apache dot org>
> > Simon Nash <nash at apache dot org>
> > Venkata Krishnan <svkrish at apache dot org>
> >
> > NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Ant Elder
> > be appointed to the office of Vice President, Apache Tuscany, to
> > serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the
> > Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until
> > death, resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification,
> > or until a successor is appointed; and be it further
> >
> > RESOLVED, that the Apache Tuscany Project be and hereby
> > is tasked with the migration and rationalization of the Apache
> > Incubator Tuscany podling; and be it further
> >
> > RESOLVED, that all responsibilities pertaining to the Apache
> > Incubator Tuscany podling encumbered upon the Apache Incubator
> > Project are hereafter discharged.
> >
>
>
> --
> Paul Fremantle
> Co-Founder and VP of Technical Sales, WSO2
> OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
>
> blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org
> paul@wso2.com
>
> "Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>.
+1 from me (IPMC and Mentor)
Paul
On 10/12/07, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Tuscany podling respectfully requests the Incubator to consider its
> graduation to a Top Level Project.
>
> While incubating Tuscany has made 14(!) releases, voted in 19 new
> committers, survived conflicts, formed its PPMC, learned how to govern
> itself, resolved licensing issues and an active community continues to grow
> around Tuscany.
>
> The community vote for graduation can be found on the Tuscany dev list at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg24675.html
>
> We have prepared the resolution below to be presented for consideration at
> the upcoming Board meeting.
>
> We invite everyone to vote to approve this proposal.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> ...ant
>
> Establish the Apache Tuscany project:
>
> WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
> interests of the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's
> purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged with
> the creation and maintenance of open-source software that
> simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented
> applications and provides a managed service-oriented runtime
> based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group,
> for distribution at no charge to the public.
>
> NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management
> Committee (PMC), to be known as the "Apache Tuscany Project",
> be and hereby is established pursuant to Bylaws of the
> Foundation; and be it further
>
> RESOLVED, that the Apache Tuscany Project be and hereby is
> responsible for the creation and maintenance of software
> related to Apache Tuscany;
> and be it further
>
> RESOLVED, that the office of "Vice President, Apache Tuscany" be
> and hereby is created, the person holding such office to
> serve at the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair
> of the Apache Tuscany Project, and to have primary responsibility
> for management of the projects within the scope of
> responsibility of the Apache Tuscany Project; and be it further
>
> RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and
> hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the
> Apache Tuscany Project:
>
> Adriano Crestani <adrianocrestani at apache dot org>
> Andrew Borley <ajborley at apache dot org>
> Andy Grove <agrove at apache dot org>
> ant elder <antelder at apache dot org>
> Brady Johnson <bjohnson at apache dot org>
> Frank Budinsky <frankb at apache dot org>
> Ignacio Silva-Lepe <isilval at apache dot org>
> Jean-Sebastien Delfino <jsdelfino at apache dot org>
> kelvin goodson <kelvingoodson at apache dot org>
> Luciano Resende <lresende at apache dot org>
> Mike Edwards <edwardsmj at apache dot org>
> Pete Robbins <robbinspg at apache dot org>
> Raymond Feng <rfeng at apache dot org>
> Simon Laws <slaws at apache dot org>
> Simon Nash <nash at apache dot org>
> Venkata Krishnan <svkrish at apache dot org>
>
> NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Ant Elder
> be appointed to the office of Vice President, Apache Tuscany, to
> serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the
> Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until
> death, resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification,
> or until a successor is appointed; and be it further
>
> RESOLVED, that the Apache Tuscany Project be and hereby
> is tasked with the migration and rationalization of the Apache
> Incubator Tuscany podling; and be it further
>
> RESOLVED, that all responsibilities pertaining to the Apache
> Incubator Tuscany podling encumbered upon the Apache Incubator
> Project are hereafter discharged.
>
--
Paul Fremantle
Co-Founder and VP of Technical Sales, WSO2
OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On 10/13/07, Noel J. Bergman <noel@devtech.com > wrote:
>
> Ant,
>
> Are there any issues that should be pointed out, such as the (hopefully)
> mechanical licensing header issue in stdcxx, or community diversity, which
> at least in part is measuring independence from corporate backing (a
> popular
> thread this past month)? It seems that the latter should be well in hand,
> but I'll not assume. :-)
>
> --- Noel
Tuscany has no legal or licensing issues that I'm aware of. RAT has been run
numerous times over all the releases we've done, and the code scrutinized in
lots of release reviews (and from all those release review comments the
Tuscany ppmc have a learnt lots about the Apache release requirements). The
biggest recent issue was when a dependency on bouncycastle got added but
we've removed that for now till the IDEA patent issues are resolved.
There were 11 committers when the Tuscany poddling was first created and
over the course of incubation 19 new committers have been added giving a
diversity of something like 5 or 6 different companies and several
independents. Not all of those are currently active, and a couple probably
wont ever be again, but others may become active again from time to time
depending on their own needs and uses of Tuscany. There does still remain at
least the minimum of three legally independent committers, and the with so
many new committers being voted in over incubation it shows Tuscany is
completely open to accepting new people.
...ant
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Oct 15, 2007, at 12:06 PM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
>
> Noel
>
> I've expressed some concern before about diversity and independence
> [1]. At the time, 11 out of 12 members proposed for the TLP's PMC
> worked for a single organization. Since then, a couple more people
> have been added but the ratio is still 13 out of 16. Yes, there are
> 3 organizations represented but control still lies with one bloc.
>
FWIW, if I were a Mentor, I would not be of the mind to
approve graduation. CXF, a podling of which I am a Mentor, is
in a very, very similar position, and I will continue to
lobby against its graduation until there is more diversity.
IMO, this is a key aspect of Mentorship: looking beyond the
simple numbers and seeing how much diversity there really
is.
I have not yet cast my vote for Tuscany graduation yet, but I
am leaning towards a -1...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>.
I don't see that has any relevance to this discussion. If someone wants to
do a presentation about Apache HTTPD focussing on mod_proxy and mod_rewrite
it doesn't mean the other modules aren't important.
Paul
On 10/15/07, Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Oct 15, 2007, at 8:02 PM, Paul Fremantle wrote:
> > Is it stated somewhere that the Java SCA/SDO components are "core"
> > compared
> > to C++ and DAS?
>
> And then in a coincidence of timing, there is this:
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ws-tuscany-dev/200710.mbox/%
> 3cOF8552AC0B.489D30F6-ON85257375.00501367-85257375.0050CA20@us.ibm.com
> %3e
>
> which makes no mention of either C++ or DAS.
> --
> Jeremy
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Paul Fremantle
Co-Founder and VP of Technical Sales, WSO2
OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org>.
On Oct 15, 2007, at 8:02 PM, Paul Fremantle wrote:
> Is it stated somewhere that the Java SCA/SDO components are "core"
> compared
> to C++ and DAS?
And then in a coincidence of timing, there is this:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ws-tuscany-dev/200710.mbox/%
3cOF8552AC0B.489D30F6-ON85257375.00501367-85257375.0050CA20@us.ibm.com
%3e
which makes no mention of either C++ or DAS.
--
Jeremy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Just one example of the community bending over back wards to
accomodate Jim and Jeremy
http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg05118.html
Please search for "chianti" in the archives to get the background.
Basically the trunk was abandoned and the revolutionary "fork" was
accepted *JUST* for community reasons.
thanks,
dims
On 10/23/07, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Noel,
>
> FYI, I could plainly see who was working hard to co-exist and who
> wasnt'. IMHO, the people who left clearly did not want to
> play/participate. It was sacrilege to do anything that was against
> their mental model of things had to work.
>
> My 2 cents.
>
> -- dims
>
> On 10/23/07, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> > Jim Marino wrote:
> >
> > > About seven months ago, BEA decided to pursue an alternative
> > > direction with the other active independents working on SCA
> > > at the time when our goals diverged from others in the community.
> > > Speaking for BEA, we made it clear on multiple occasions that
> > > while we wished Tuscany success, given the divergent interests,
> > > we were satisfied with our decision to participate elsewhere.
> > > It is unlikely we will revisit this decision in the future.
> >
> > This should be a cautionary tale to communities if a project cannot serve
> > the interests of all its members.
> >
> > --- Noel
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com
>
--
Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Noel,
FYI, I could plainly see who was working hard to co-exist and who
wasnt'. IMHO, the people who left clearly did not want to
play/participate. It was sacrilege to do anything that was against
their mental model of things had to work.
My 2 cents.
-- dims
On 10/23/07, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Jim Marino wrote:
>
> > About seven months ago, BEA decided to pursue an alternative
> > direction with the other active independents working on SCA
> > at the time when our goals diverged from others in the community.
> > Speaking for BEA, we made it clear on multiple occasions that
> > while we wished Tuscany success, given the divergent interests,
> > we were satisfied with our decision to participate elsewhere.
> > It is unlikely we will revisit this decision in the future.
>
> This should be a cautionary tale to communities if a project cannot serve
> the interests of all its members.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jim Marino wrote:
> About seven months ago, BEA decided to pursue an alternative
> direction with the other active independents working on SCA
> at the time when our goals diverged from others in the community.
> Speaking for BEA, we made it clear on multiple occasions that
> while we wished Tuscany success, given the divergent interests,
> we were satisfied with our decision to participate elsewhere.
> It is unlikely we will revisit this decision in the future.
This should be a cautionary tale to communities if a project cannot serve
the interests of all its members.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Jim Marino <jm...@myromatours.com>.
On Oct 21, 2007, at 10:52 AM, ant elder wrote:
> On 10/21/07, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>>
>> Ant Elder wrote:
>>
>>>> Apparently a bare minimum, with very little active work from
>> independents?
>>
>>> If the bare minimum is the "3 legally independent committers" as
>>> defined
>> in
>>> the Incubator policy documents then Tuscany has more than the bare
>> minimum -
>>> and thats "active" committers.
>>
>> Can you compare those figures with Jeremy's statment:
>>
>>> at this time there are only 2 committers active[2] who don't work
>>> for
>>> that organization, compared to 11 who do. Neither of the two
>>> independents are active in the core project areas of Java SCA or SDO
>>> (they are committing to the C++ implementation or to DAS).
>>
>> and Simon Nash's:
>>
>>> In the last 2 months, 3 new committers have been added, one is in
>> progress
>>> as Paul has said, and one is being discussed. Of these 5 people,
>>> one is
>>> IBM "day job" (me), one is IBM "non-day-job", and 3 are non-IBM.
>>
>> Simon seems to say three non-IBM and one IBM as a hobby, not day
>> job. But
>> two of the five aren't committers *yet*. Jeremy says two
>> indepdendents.
>> You're saying more than three.
>
>
> I think the breakdown is: current active committers are from IBM,
> RougeWave
> and two independents.
>
> I'm not sure exactly who does how many hours for a day job but i
> _think_ at
> least 3 of those IBM committers don't participate at all for their day
> jobs.
>
> Tuscany has 11 inactive committers (not contributed for months),
> from BEA,
> IBM, IONA and Redhat and two independents, I don't know if any of
> those will
> contribute again, last time i spoke to one of them they said they
> would but
> they were busy on other things just now.
Without getting involved in the rest of the discussions associated
with this thread, I do want to clarify one point...
About seven months ago, BEA decided to pursue an alternative
direction with the other active independents working on SCA at the
time when our goals diverged from others in the community. Speaking
for BEA, we made it clear on multiple occasions that while we wished
Tuscany success, given the divergent interests, we were satisfied
with our decision to participate elsewhere. It is unlikely we will
revisit this decision in the future.
Regards,
Jim
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On 10/21/07, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>
> Ant Elder wrote:
>
> > > Apparently a bare minimum, with very little active work from
> independents?
>
> > If the bare minimum is the "3 legally independent committers" as defined
> in
> > the Incubator policy documents then Tuscany has more than the bare
> minimum -
> > and thats "active" committers.
>
> Can you compare those figures with Jeremy's statment:
>
> > at this time there are only 2 committers active[2] who don't work for
> > that organization, compared to 11 who do. Neither of the two
> > independents are active in the core project areas of Java SCA or SDO
> > (they are committing to the C++ implementation or to DAS).
>
> and Simon Nash's:
>
> > In the last 2 months, 3 new committers have been added, one is in
> progress
> > as Paul has said, and one is being discussed. Of these 5 people, one is
> > IBM "day job" (me), one is IBM "non-day-job", and 3 are non-IBM.
>
> Simon seems to say three non-IBM and one IBM as a hobby, not day job. But
> two of the five aren't committers *yet*. Jeremy says two indepdendents.
> You're saying more than three.
I think the breakdown is: current active committers are from IBM, RougeWave
and two independents.
I'm not sure exactly who does how many hours for a day job but i _think_ at
least 3 of those IBM committers don't participate at all for their day
jobs.
Tuscany has 11 inactive committers (not contributed for months), from BEA,
IBM, IONA and Redhat and two independents, I don't know if any of those will
contribute again, last time i spoke to one of them they said they would but
they were busy on other things just now.
There's two more new people being voted on presently, and the STATUS file
[1] shows new committers have been getting added every month or two over
most of the incubation.
So from that Tuscany does "more than meet" the minimum requirement of "at
least 3 legally independent committers". I've not seen this detail on
diversity and active versus inactive committers in other graduations - how
does Tuscany compare with other previously graduating poddlings?
...ant
[1] https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/tuscany/STATUS
RE: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Ant Elder wrote:
> > Apparently a bare minimum, with very little active work from
independents?
> If the bare minimum is the "3 legally independent committers" as defined
in
> the Incubator policy documents then Tuscany has more than the bare
minimum -
> and thats "active" committers.
Can you compare those figures with Jeremy's statment:
> at this time there are only 2 committers active[2] who don't work for
> that organization, compared to 11 who do. Neither of the two
> independents are active in the core project areas of Java SCA or SDO
> (they are committing to the C++ implementation or to DAS).
and Simon Nash's:
> In the last 2 months, 3 new committers have been added, one is in progress
> as Paul has said, and one is being discussed. Of these 5 people, one is
> IBM "day job" (me), one is IBM "non-day-job", and 3 are non-IBM.
Simon seems to say three non-IBM and one IBM as a hobby, not day job. But
two of the five aren't committers *yet*. Jeremy says two indepdendents.
You're saying more than three.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On 10/19/07, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>
> Paul Fremantle wrote:
>
> > I think Tuscany is ready to graduate because:
> > 1) I understand it to have met the base requirements of the IPMC in
> terms
> of
> > independent committers
>
> Apparently a bare minimum, with very little active work from independents?
If the bare minimum is the "3 legally independent committers" as defined in
the Incubator policy documents then Tuscany has more than the bare minimum -
and thats "active" committers. After two years in Incubation there are
inactive committers but we've been ignoring those for these graduation
discussions.
...ant
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Vamsavardhana Reddy <c1...@gmail.com>.
I am glad that I brought up the discussion on Tuscany graduation with Bill
Rowe at ApacheConEU 2008. Happy to see this gain momentum and the positive
responses :).
++Vamsi
On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
> On Sunday 13 April 2008 19:30, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> > IMHO the emphasis on committer affiliation is misguided. overloading
> > the word diversity was also probably a mistake. maybe we need to focus
> > on narrower concepts with alternative names.
> >
> > 1. the incubator should be concerned about the composition of the
> > proposed PMC.
> >
> > 2. for a top level project to succeed, it needs to be able to
> > encrourage, recruit and mentor new independent developers.
>
> +1.
>
> Also, my personal and highly subjective interpretation of the (if present)
> intent around diversity boils down to one scenario;
>
> * A company pulls the plug for paid developers - will the project survive?
>
> Other cases of dominance have been brought up, such as forcing the
> company's
> will upon the community, rejection to expand the developer community and
> PMC
> membership, and so forth. I find these issues less important, as ASF
> Members
> can (and should) monitor PMCs in general and raise flags to the board if
> misuse is happening, and we have been there before and can deal with it.
>
> So, for the case of Tuscany; I am satisfied with the diversity goal, and
> encourage Tuscany community with the aid of Mentors to move for
> graduation.
>
>
> Cheers
> --
> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
>
> I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
> I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
> I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 11:24 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 10:47 AM, William A. Rowe, Jr. <
> wrowe@rowe-clan.net> wrote:
>
> > On Sunday 13 April 2008 19:30, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> > >
> > > > IMHO the emphasis on committer affiliation is misguided. overloading
> > > > the word diversity was also probably a mistake. maybe we need to
> > > > focus
> > > > on narrower concepts with alternative names.
> > > >
> > > > 1. the incubator should be concerned about the composition of the
> > > > proposed PMC.
> > > >
> > >
> > Only that the community will be welcoming to newcomers and not treat the
> > ASF community-project as the "company's private project"; e.g. stdcxx is
> > largely one company, yet and still they brought across 2 mentors (Justin
> > and myself) to ensure we continue to foster community with the stdcxx
> > user community. A good c++ programmer/open source library user is
> > always
> > a potential patch contributor, more akin to apr, and very unlike httpd,
> > and we see those users to become potential contributors.
> >
> > Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > Also, my personal and highly subjective interpretation of the (if
> > > present) intent around diversity boils down to one scenario;
> > >
> > > * A company pulls the plug for paid developers - will the project
> > > survive?
> > >
> >
> > Actually I think we are far too obsessed with the prospects of letting
> > a given project or podling die. So the project passes into lethargy
> > and it's time ends, what's really so "negative" about that? We don't
> > hold committers to the grindstone, why should we treat employer
> > sponsored
> > committers any differently?
> >
> > So, for the case of Tuscany; I am satisfied with the diversity goal,
> > > and encourage Tuscany community with the aid of Mentors to move for
> > > graduation.
> > >
> >
> > ++1
> >
>
> So it seems like there is better support for Tuscany graduation now, are
> there any other issues or concerns anyone would like to bring up before we
> do make another attempt?
>
> ...ant
>
>
FYI, we've now started the tuscany-dev vote for doing this:
http://apache.markmail.org/message/6bduwmwuhntbjafu
...ant
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 10:47 AM, William A. Rowe, Jr. <wr...@rowe-clan.net>
wrote:
> On Sunday 13 April 2008 19:30, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> >
> > > IMHO the emphasis on committer affiliation is misguided. overloading
> > > the word diversity was also probably a mistake. maybe we need to focus
> > > on narrower concepts with alternative names.
> > >
> > > 1. the incubator should be concerned about the composition of the
> > > proposed PMC.
> > >
> >
> Only that the community will be welcoming to newcomers and not treat the
> ASF community-project as the "company's private project"; e.g. stdcxx is
> largely one company, yet and still they brought across 2 mentors (Justin
> and myself) to ensure we continue to foster community with the stdcxx
> user community. A good c++ programmer/open source library user is always
> a potential patch contributor, more akin to apr, and very unlike httpd,
> and we see those users to become potential contributors.
>
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> >
>
> > Also, my personal and highly subjective interpretation of the (if
> > present) intent around diversity boils down to one scenario;
> >
> > * A company pulls the plug for paid developers - will the project
> > survive?
> >
>
> Actually I think we are far too obsessed with the prospects of letting
> a given project or podling die. So the project passes into lethargy
> and it's time ends, what's really so "negative" about that? We don't
> hold committers to the grindstone, why should we treat employer sponsored
> committers any differently?
>
> So, for the case of Tuscany; I am satisfied with the diversity goal, and
> > encourage Tuscany community with the aid of Mentors to move for graduation.
> >
>
> ++1
>
So it seems like there is better support for Tuscany graduation now, are
there any other issues or concerns anyone would like to bring up before we
do make another attempt?
...ant
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Apr 16, 2008, at 6:56 AM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> There needs to be a balance. And I am satisfied that the Incubator
> PMC has been taking the right line on the issue so far, subjective
> as the line may be.
>
FWIW, I also agree. And as a mentor, I think it results in a better
podling/PPMC/graduate.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
>>> 1. the incubator should be concerned about the composition of the
>>> proposed PMC.
> Only that the community will be welcoming to newcomers and not treat the
> ASF community-project as the "company's private project"
Those are primary concerns, yes. We don't want a company hijacking a project and using the ASF's imprimatur in that manner. More importantly, we want to see continued community development.
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > * A company pulls the plug for paid developers - will the project survive?
> Actually I think we are far too obsessed with the prospects of letting
> a given project or podling die.
There needs to be a balance. And I am satisfied that the Incubator PMC has been taking the right line on the issue so far, subjective as the line may be.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
> On Sunday 13 April 2008 19:30, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
>> IMHO the emphasis on committer affiliation is misguided. overloading
>> the word diversity was also probably a mistake. maybe we need to focus
>> on narrower concepts with alternative names.
>>
>> 1. the incubator should be concerned about the composition of the
>> proposed PMC.
Only that the community will be welcoming to newcomers and not treat the
ASF community-project as the "company's private project"; e.g. stdcxx is
largely one company, yet and still they brought across 2 mentors (Justin
and myself) to ensure we continue to foster community with the stdcxx
user community. A good c++ programmer/open source library user is always
a potential patch contributor, more akin to apr, and very unlike httpd,
and we see those users to become potential contributors.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>
> Also, my personal and highly subjective interpretation of the (if present)
> intent around diversity boils down to one scenario;
>
> * A company pulls the plug for paid developers - will the project survive?
Actually I think we are far too obsessed with the prospects of letting
a given project or podling die. So the project passes into lethargy
and it's time ends, what's really so "negative" about that? We don't
hold committers to the grindstone, why should we treat employer sponsored
committers any differently?
> So, for the case of Tuscany; I am satisfied with the diversity goal, and
> encourage Tuscany community with the aid of Mentors to move for graduation.
++1
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Sunday 13 April 2008 19:30, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> IMHO the emphasis on committer affiliation is misguided. overloading
> the word diversity was also probably a mistake. maybe we need to focus
> on narrower concepts with alternative names.
>
> 1. the incubator should be concerned about the composition of the
> proposed PMC.
>
> 2. for a top level project to succeed, it needs to be able to
> encrourage, recruit and mentor new independent developers.
+1.
Also, my personal and highly subjective interpretation of the (if present)
intent around diversity boils down to one scenario;
* A company pulls the plug for paid developers - will the project survive?
Other cases of dominance have been brought up, such as forcing the company's
will upon the community, rejection to expand the developer community and PMC
membership, and so forth. I find these issues less important, as ASF Members
can (and should) monitor PMCs in general and raise flags to the board if
misuse is happening, and we have been there before and can deal with it.
So, for the case of Tuscany; I am satisfied with the diversity goal, and
encourage Tuscany community with the aid of Mentors to move for graduation.
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin <
robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 9:27 PM, ant elder <an...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > That would make the PPMC be about 50% IBM day job and 50% (non IBMers
> or
> > IBM non-day jobers). Can we take it to a private list if anyone wants a
> > detailed breakdown?
>
> +1
>
> IMO the IPMC is wrong to ask for named affiliations in public.
> contractual information is potentially confidential and should be
> discussed only in private. all that should be needed in public are
> aggregate statistics.
>
> IMHO the emphasis on committer affiliation is misguided. overloading
> the word diversity was also probably a mistake. maybe we need to focus
> on narrower concepts with alternative names.
>
> 1. the incubator should be concerned about the composition of the
> proposed PMC. PMC conveys voting rights and control of the project
> going forward. independent committers are fine but if these are not
> being enfranchised then this should be a concern. so the aggregation
> distribution of affiliations of PPMC members should be of interest. i
> don't care what the affliation is, just the aggregate stats.
>
> 2. for a top level project to succeed, it needs to be able to
> encrourage, recruit and mentor new independent developers. unless a
> project demonstrates the ability to recruit new independent
> developers, it is not ready to graduate. so, i would like to know how
> many new independent committers the project has developed, am
> interested in the quantity of code they've contributed and whether
> they are on the PPMC. again, i don't care about their affiliations.
>
Some answers to these:
Here is the timeline of new committers additions to Tuscany:
2008-04-16 Vote to add Wang Feng as Tuscany committer
2008-03-26 Vote to add Giorgio Zoppi as Tuscany committer
2007-11-19 Vote to add Rajini Sivaram as Tuscany committer
2007-11-01 Vote to add Mark Combellack as Tuscany committer
2007-10-21 Vote to add Michael Yoder as Tuscany committer
2007-10-08 Vote to add Amita Vadhavkar as a new committer
2007-09-19 Vote to add Simon Nash as a new committer
2007-08-21 Vote to add Brady Johnson as a new committer
2007-07-12 Vote to add Fuhwei Lwo as a new committer
2007-05-01 Vote to add Andy Grove as a new committer
2007-04-03 Vote to add Adriano Crestani as a new committer
2007-01-22 Vote to add Simon Laws as a new committer
2006-11-15 Vote to add Geoffrey Winn as a new committer
2006-11-10 Vote to add Luciano Resende as a new commiter
2006-11-07 Vote to add Rajith Attapattu
2006-09-29 Vote to add Ignacio Silva-Lepe as a new committer
2006-09-18 Vote to add Venkata Krishnan as a new committer
2006-08-10 Vote to add Andrew Borley as a new committer
2006-08-07 Vote to add Meeraj Kunnumpurath as a new committer
2006-08-07 Vote to add Kelvin Goodson as a new committer
2006-08-06 Vote to add Brent Daniel as a new committer
2006-08-04 Vote to add Raymond Feng as a new committer
2006-05-02 Vote to add Dan Kulp as a new committer
2006-03-01 Vote to add Ant Elder as a new committer
So thats 24 new committers over the two and a bit years of incubation, about
one new committer every month or two. Of those, 12 were IBMers, 12 were
independents or non-paid job IBMers. The actual quantity of code each of
those have done is harder to say but using the dates on that list if you
trawl around in the tuscany-private archives you can see the discussion
around each nomination and I think be satisfied each was justified. Not all
those have become PPMC members (yet), some committers don't stay active and
we've had PPMC membership take a little longer and require a bit more
commitment to the project, but as mentioned earlier on this thread the
Tuscany PPMC currently has 15 members, about 50% IBM day job and 50% (non
IBMers or IBM non-day jobers).
...ant
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 9:27 PM, ant elder <an...@apache.org> wrote:
<snip>
> That would make the PPMC be about 50% IBM day job and 50% (non IBMers or
> IBM non-day jobers). Can we take it to a private list if anyone wants a
> detailed breakdown?
+1
IMO the IPMC is wrong to ask for named affiliations in public.
contractual information is potentially confidential and should be
discussed only in private. all that should be needed in public are
aggregate statistics.
IMHO the emphasis on committer affiliation is misguided. overloading
the word diversity was also probably a mistake. maybe we need to focus
on narrower concepts with alternative names.
1. the incubator should be concerned about the composition of the
proposed PMC. PMC conveys voting rights and control of the project
going forward. independent committers are fine but if these are not
being enfranchised then this should be a concern. so the aggregation
distribution of affiliations of PPMC members should be of interest. i
don't care what the affliation is, just the aggregate stats.
2. for a top level project to succeed, it needs to be able to
encrourage, recruit and mentor new independent developers. unless a
project demonstrates the ability to recruit new independent
developers, it is not ready to graduate. so, i would like to know how
many new independent committers the project has developed, am
interested in the quantity of code they've contributed and whether
they are on the PPMC. again, i don't care about their affiliations.
- robert
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by ant elder <an...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Matthieu Riou <ma...@offthelip.org>
wrote:
> On 4/10/08, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 4:31 PM, William A. Rowe, Jr. <
> wrowe@rowe-clan.net
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > i've been a passive subscriber to the tuscany list for quite a while
> > > > now and to me, from the lists, it feels like an open community
> > > >
> > >
> > > It's been a while since we discussed this.
> > >
> > > I'm very curious where Tuscany stands - in terms of viably graduating
> > > at this point. The one apparent issue is diversity - but I don't
> think
> > > we want to continue using that as a cudgel - in fact I think we are
> > > going to get very 'full' here at the Incubator if we have unrealistic
> > > expectations.
> > >
> > >
> > > Can someone fill me in on how many non-IBM PPMC members now
> participate?
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> >
> >
> > The complete PPMC list is being maintained on the graduation proposal
> wiki
> > page -
> >
> >
> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TUSCANYWIKI/Draft+TLP+Resolution
> >
> > So thats 15 members, currently 3 non-IBMers. However there have been
> > regularly new committers added so I expect there may be other non-IBMer
> > committers we will add to that PPMC list before our next graduation
> > attempt
> > (which i expect wont be so long away, we are actively thinking about
> > it...).
>
>
> You should also mention people who happen to work for IBM but are not
> working on Tuscany as part of their daily job.
>
> Cheers,
> Matthieu
>
> ...ant
> >
That would make the PPMC be about 50% IBM day job and 50% (non IBMers or
IBM non-day jobers). Can we take it to a private list if anyone wants a
detailed breakdown?
...ant
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@offthelip.org>.
On 4/10/08, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 4:31 PM, William A. Rowe, Jr. <wrowe@rowe-clan.net
> >
> wrote:
>
>
> > Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > i've been a passive subscriber to the tuscany list for quite a while
> > > now and to me, from the lists, it feels like an open community
> > >
> >
> > It's been a while since we discussed this.
> >
> > I'm very curious where Tuscany stands - in terms of viably graduating
> > at this point. The one apparent issue is diversity - but I don't think
> > we want to continue using that as a cudgel - in fact I think we are
> > going to get very 'full' here at the Incubator if we have unrealistic
> > expectations.
> >
> >
> > Can someone fill me in on how many non-IBM PPMC members now participate?
> >
> > Bill
> >
>
>
> The complete PPMC list is being maintained on the graduation proposal wiki
> page -
>
> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TUSCANYWIKI/Draft+TLP+Resolution
>
> So thats 15 members, currently 3 non-IBMers. However there have been
> regularly new committers added so I expect there may be other non-IBMer
> committers we will add to that PPMC list before our next graduation
> attempt
> (which i expect wont be so long away, we are actively thinking about
> it...).
You should also mention people who happen to work for IBM but are not
working on Tuscany as part of their daily job.
Cheers,
Matthieu
...ant
>
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 4:31 PM, William A. Rowe, Jr. <wr...@rowe-clan.net>
wrote:
> Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
>
> >
> > i've been a passive subscriber to the tuscany list for quite a while
> > now and to me, from the lists, it feels like an open community
> >
>
> It's been a while since we discussed this.
>
> I'm very curious where Tuscany stands - in terms of viably graduating
> at this point. The one apparent issue is diversity - but I don't think
> we want to continue using that as a cudgel - in fact I think we are
> going to get very 'full' here at the Incubator if we have unrealistic
> expectations.
>
>
> Can someone fill me in on how many non-IBM PPMC members now participate?
>
> Bill
>
The complete PPMC list is being maintained on the graduation proposal wiki
page -
http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TUSCANYWIKI/Draft+TLP+Resolution
So thats 15 members, currently 3 non-IBMers. However there have been
regularly new committers added so I expect there may be other non-IBMer
committers we will add to that PPMC list before our next graduation attempt
(which i expect wont be so long away, we are actively thinking about it...).
...ant
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
>
> i've been a passive subscriber to the tuscany list for quite a while
> now and to me, from the lists, it feels like an open community
It's been a while since we discussed this.
I'm very curious where Tuscany stands - in terms of viably graduating
at this point. The one apparent issue is diversity - but I don't think
we want to continue using that as a cudgel - in fact I think we are
going to get very 'full' here at the Incubator if we have unrealistic
expectations.
Can someone fill me in on how many non-IBM PPMC members now participate?
Bill
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On 10/24/07, Matt Hogstrom <ma...@hogstrom.org> wrote:
> Jim,
>
> Thanks for this feedback. I think you raise a good point that one of
> the goals of community building is discovering a community's true
> synergies and strengths and that sometimes the right outcome is not a
> single community. Where goals are mis-aligned then a respectful
> change of direction is sometimes the best path. I trust your work is
> going well over at Codehaus and that y'all are fairing well and
> building a community is going also flourishing.
+1
> Although I don't follow the Fabric 3 work I can say that Tuscany has
> settled into a pace and cadence that suits them. I trust you are on
> a similar path.
+1
i've been a passive subscriber to the tuscany list for quite a while
now and to me, from the lists, it feels like an open community
- robert
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Matt Hogstrom <ma...@hogstrom.org>.
Jim,
Thanks for this feedback. I think you raise a good point that one of
the goals of community building is discovering a community's true
synergies and strengths and that sometimes the right outcome is not a
single community. Where goals are mis-aligned then a respectful
change of direction is sometimes the best path. I trust your work is
going well over at Codehaus and that y'all are fairing well and
building a community is going also flourishing.
Although I don't follow the Fabric 3 work I can say that Tuscany has
settled into a pace and cadence that suits them. I trust you are on
a similar path.
On Oct 23, 2007, at 12:14 PM, Jim Marino wrote:
> It does seem both it and our community (Fabric3) have a lot less
> friction and are growing nicely. Sometimes communities just diverge
> based on differences of opinion, technical or otherwise, and trying
> to villainize one group is the wrong approach since it is not
> constructive.
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Jim Marino <jm...@myromatours.com>.
On Oct 23, 2007, at 6:43 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Noel,
>
> <decloak>
> I was there when it happened. It was actually the other way
> around..Short story, the "independents" had trouble letting anyone
> else work or suggest ideas which went against their own mental model
> of how things should be. When i argued for a middle path vociferously,
> they left.
> </decloak>
>
> -- dims
>
Dims,
I was simply trying to clear up a point of ambiguity with respect to
my (and by extension my employer's) involvement in Tuscany. I was
hoping to avoid digging up the past, which doesn't serve good purposes.
Were the independents completely intransigent or were the others
inflexible? Sometimes people just have different goals and
reconciliation doesn't work because things are too far apart. I and
the others working on the SCA Java implementation left the project
because there was constant friction and differences of opinion, and
we felt it best for the two camps to go their separate ways. I
previously explained my motivations here:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ws-tuscany-dev/200703.mbox/%
3cC48A4BFB-A6F0-4113-81EA-25F5A207126B@myromatours.com%3e
Unfortunately, I don't have much time to follow Tuscany closely
although I do check the lists occasionally. It does seem both it and
our community (Fabric3) have a lot less friction and are growing
nicely. Sometimes communities just diverge based on differences of
opinion, technical or otherwise, and trying to villainize one group
is the wrong approach since it is not constructive.
I wish Tuscany luck as I work closely with some of those involved in
the project on the SCA specifications and have a lot of technical and
personal respect for them.
Jim
> On 10/23/07, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>> Matthieu Riou wrote:
>>
>>> they did welcome enough independent committers while being in the
>>> incubator
>>
>>> Attracting a large quantity of independent developers while being
>>> in the incubator is pretty hard
>>
>> Yes, but it seems to be emerging that there *were* more
>> independents, and
>> they have left to work actively elsewhere (as indicated by Jim
>> Marino for
>> BEA). Is this an indicator that the community wasn't able to
>> embrace the
>> interests of more than one vendor? Since SCA is a standard, why
>> was there a
>> need to fork the implementation?
>>
>> --- Noel
>>
>> P.S. I've removed [VOTE], since Ant indicates that the vote is
>> being tabled
>> for now.
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Noel,
<decloak>
I was there when it happened. It was actually the other way
around..Short story, the "independents" had trouble letting anyone
else work or suggest ideas which went against their own mental model
of how things should be. When i argued for a middle path vociferously,
they left.
</decloak>
-- dims
On 10/23/07, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Matthieu Riou wrote:
>
> > they did welcome enough independent committers while being in the
> > incubator
>
> > Attracting a large quantity of independent developers while being
> > in the incubator is pretty hard
>
> Yes, but it seems to be emerging that there *were* more independents, and
> they have left to work actively elsewhere (as indicated by Jim Marino for
> BEA). Is this an indicator that the community wasn't able to embrace the
> interests of more than one vendor? Since SCA is a standard, why was there a
> need to fork the implementation?
>
> --- Noel
>
> P.S. I've removed [VOTE], since Ant indicates that the vote is being tabled
> for now.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Matthieu Riou wrote:
> they did welcome enough independent committers while being in the
> incubator
> Attracting a large quantity of independent developers while being
> in the incubator is pretty hard
Yes, but it seems to be emerging that there *were* more independents, and
they have left to work actively elsewhere (as indicated by Jim Marino for
BEA). Is this an indicator that the community wasn't able to embrace the
interests of more than one vendor? Since SCA is a standard, why was there a
need to fork the implementation?
--- Noel
P.S. I've removed [VOTE], since Ant indicates that the vote is being tabled
for now.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@offthelip.org>.
On 10/20/07, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>
> Paul Fremantle wrote:
>
> > > Wouldn't the community be healthier if it focused some effort
> > > on bringing in independent committers?
>
> > Its my understanding that the project is very focussed on encouraging
> > new committers and that this is having results.
>
> Where? It seems to me that if it were having results, we wouldn't be
> having
> this discussion.
>
> I am happy to hear that Tuscany is open to new developers, but if we want
> a
> base level of diversity, we need to actually have those new developers,
> not
> just be open to them. Cross-fertilization between projects (Tuscany, Ode,
> CXF, Synapse, ServiceMix, et al) is one way to improve diversity, as well
> as
> improve synergies and integration.
My impression is that the current discussion only arises because Tuscany has
so many committers. If there were only 3 or 4 of them from a single
organization, nobody would be so worried about it, even if they had the bare
minimum of 3 independent committers. But they did welcome enough independent
committers while being in the incubator and there's actually a second
organization supporting the project as well.
Attracting a large quantity of independent developers while being in the
incubator is pretty hard, I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect them to
find enough independents to balance all others.
Matthieu
--- Noel
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Simon Nash <na...@hursley.ibm.com>.
The recent Tuscany 1.0 release included Ode integration with an
implementation.bpel component type. We also have experimental support
for integration with Geronimo.
In the last 2 months, 3 new committers have been added, one is in progress
as Paul has said, and one is being discussed. Of these 5 people, one is
IBM "day job" (me), one is IBM "non-day-job", and 3 are non-IBM.
I think this clearly shows that Tuscany is focusing effort on bringing in
new committers to increase diversity, and on cross-fertilizing with other
projects.
Simon
Paul Fremantle wrote:
> Noel
>
> There is a vote in progress on a new committer right now. Does that count?
>
> I'm certainly keen on doing integration between Synapse and Tuscany and as
> soon as I get a minute I will do it. I agree that cross-fertilization is
> good.
>
> Paul
>
> On 10/21/07, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>
>>Paul Fremantle wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Wouldn't the community be healthier if it focused some effort
>>>>on bringing in independent committers?
>>
>>>Its my understanding that the project is very focussed on encouraging
>>>new committers and that this is having results.
>>
>>Where? It seems to me that if it were having results, we wouldn't be
>>having
>>this discussion.
>>
>>I am happy to hear that Tuscany is open to new developers, but if we want
>>a
>>base level of diversity, we need to actually have those new developers,
>>not
>>just be open to them. Cross-fertilization between projects (Tuscany, Ode,
>>CXF, Synapse, ServiceMix, et al) is one way to improve diversity, as well
>>as
>>improve synergies and integration.
>>
>> --- Noel
>>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>.
Noel
There is a vote in progress on a new committer right now. Does that count?
I'm certainly keen on doing integration between Synapse and Tuscany and as
soon as I get a minute I will do it. I agree that cross-fertilization is
good.
Paul
On 10/21/07, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>
> Paul Fremantle wrote:
>
> > > Wouldn't the community be healthier if it focused some effort
> > > on bringing in independent committers?
>
> > Its my understanding that the project is very focussed on encouraging
> > new committers and that this is having results.
>
> Where? It seems to me that if it were having results, we wouldn't be
> having
> this discussion.
>
> I am happy to hear that Tuscany is open to new developers, but if we want
> a
> base level of diversity, we need to actually have those new developers,
> not
> just be open to them. Cross-fertilization between projects (Tuscany, Ode,
> CXF, Synapse, ServiceMix, et al) is one way to improve diversity, as well
> as
> improve synergies and integration.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Paul Fremantle
Co-Founder and VP of Technical Sales, WSO2
OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
I would refer people to the
Re: Graduation: how do we check "three or more independent
committers" ?
thread, and message (<3E...@jaguNET.com>)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@offthelip.org>.
On 10/22/07, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 20, 2007, at 2:58 AM, Paul Fremantle wrote:
>
> > Noel
> >
> >> Wouldn't the community be healthier if it focused some effort on
> >> bringing
> > in
> >> independent committers?
> >
> > Its my understanding that the project is very focussed on
> > encouraging new
> > committers and that this is having results.
> >
>
> In which case, I would guess that diversity will be
> better improved in a handful of months...
Thanks for your vote. Could you just clarify what you would consider a good
level of diversity for Tuscany? I think it would be very beneficial to the
project to know what they're shooting for and at which point they can
consider bringing this topic back to the IPMC.
Thanks,
Matthieu
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
RE: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Paul Fremantle wrote:
> I think the PPMC needs this sort of concrete feedback.
And perhaps needs to consider that diversity means supporting a broader
community of interests.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>.
Thanks for voting. I think the PPMC needs this sort of concrete feedback.
Paul
On 10/22/07, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 20, 2007, at 2:58 AM, Paul Fremantle wrote:
>
> > Noel
> >
> >> Wouldn't the community be healthier if it focused some effort on
> >> bringing
> > in
> >> independent committers?
> >
> > Its my understanding that the project is very focussed on
> > encouraging new
> > committers and that this is having results.
> >
>
> In which case, I would guess that diversity will be
> better improved in a handful of months...
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Paul Fremantle
Co-Founder and VP of Technical Sales, WSO2
OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Oct 20, 2007, at 2:58 AM, Paul Fremantle wrote:
> Noel
>
>> Wouldn't the community be healthier if it focused some effort on
>> bringing
> in
>> independent committers?
>
> Its my understanding that the project is very focussed on
> encouraging new
> committers and that this is having results.
>
In which case, I would guess that diversity will be
better improved in a handful of months...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Paul Fremantle wrote:
> > Wouldn't the community be healthier if it focused some effort
> > on bringing in independent committers?
> Its my understanding that the project is very focussed on encouraging
> new committers and that this is having results.
Where? It seems to me that if it were having results, we wouldn't be having
this discussion.
I am happy to hear that Tuscany is open to new developers, but if we want a
base level of diversity, we need to actually have those new developers, not
just be open to them. Cross-fertilization between projects (Tuscany, Ode,
CXF, Synapse, ServiceMix, et al) is one way to improve diversity, as well as
improve synergies and integration.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>.
Noel
>Wouldn't the community be healthier if it focused some effort on bringing
in
>independent committers?
Its my understanding that the project is very focussed on encouraging new
committers and that this is having results.
Paul
--
Paul Fremantle
Co-Founder and VP of Technical Sales, WSO2
OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On 10/15/07, Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
> 2) It has survived key members of the project jumping ship and forking the
> code*
<snip>
> * Personally I think you should have disclosed your previous involvement in
> this project to the IPMC when you started this thread.
probably so: but it's good to have any possible issues aired in public here
- robert
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Paul Fremantle wrote:
> I think Tuscany is ready to graduate because:
> 1) I understand it to have met the base requirements of the IPMC in terms
of
> independent committers
Apparently a bare minimum, with very little active work from independents?
> However, I agree that there is a strong numerical bias towards one
company.
> I think the IPMC needs to take that into consideration during this vote.
Wouldn't the community be healthier if it focused some effort on bringing in
independent committers?
As with Jim, I'm leaning towards a -1 vote because although I agree with
everything else, diversity is lacking in Tuscany (and CXF).
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>.
>
> I was thinking primarily of people who were on the TLP PMC proposal.
> But yes, you and Matthew did help draft that proposal.
I also took part in some other discussions.
As the
> diversity sub-thread was taken to the private list (which is kind of
> ironic in itself) there may also have been some discussion there I
> missed as well.
>
> As a mentor you are much closer to the project than I am - why do you
> think Tuscany is ready to graduate with such a skewed PMC and
> committer base?
I think Tuscany is ready to graduate because:
1) I understand it to have met the base requirements of the IPMC in terms of
independent committers
2) It has survived key members of the project jumping ship and forking the
code*
3) It seems to me to have an open, welcoming and fair attitude to new
committers and contributers
4) The Tuscany team has a clear understanding of the Apache IP rules and
release process.
However, I agree that there is a strong numerical bias towards one company.
I think the IPMC needs to take that into consideration during this vote.
Paul
* Personally I think you should have disclosed your previous involvement in
this project to the IPMC when you started this thread.
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@offthelip.org>.
On 10/15/07, Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Taking a quick sample of the mailing list, the only contributors to
> >> the discussion thread on Graduation, which I would assume would have
> >> been a hot topic, were from the vendor.
> >
> >
> > I remember contributing to discussion on Graduation. Maybe you
> > don't count
> > me? I know I'm an ex-corporate but then so are you!
>
> I was thinking primarily of people who were on the TLP PMC proposal.
> But yes, you and Matthew did help draft that proposal. As the
> diversity sub-thread was taken to the private list (which is kind of
> ironic in itself) there may also have been some discussion there I
> missed as well.
>
> As a mentor you are much closer to the project than I am - why do you
> think Tuscany is ready to graduate with such a skewed PMC and
> committer base?
Also as a mentor on Tuscany here is how my thinking goes:
1. Tuscany has these 3 independent developers and whether they're "good
enough" to qualify is, I think, not very relevant. In fact I'm sure you'll
find a lot of Apache projects with only one or two individuals at the core
who could be from the same company. And where does the core stops? What is
the core of SCA and SDO? I think that's a non issue. (As a side note, I'm
not so big on the 3 external developers rule just because it's a fixed
number. Depending on the project, this could be not enough or too drastic
(do we forbid graduation for a 4 persons project where 2 are from the same
company?). I think it's more subjective).
2. I believe Tuscany has proven to be open toward the acceptance of new
committers in a meritocratic way and has been welcoming. They're fairly open
in their decision process and even if there's a big majority of developers
from a single company, the communication and decisions are done on the
mailing-lists, seeking consensus.
3. They know what the IP issues are and address the eventual problems
appropriately. They've done numerous releases.
4. I'm not too worried about Tuscany potential orphanage. SCA is still in
its infancy as a spec but I'm personally convinced that it has enough mind
share and will continue to gather more. Even if all the individuals
belonging to this same company were to leave, I'm pretty sure Tuscany would
continue (not saying it would continue exactly in the same way, just that
the project would remain active and supported) with the others and more.
5. They've been in the incubator for a while and I think got most of what
there is to get here. Staying in longer wouldn't add much to the project.
So for all these reasons I believe Tuscany is ready for graduation. But I'll
continue to follow them afterward and I'm sure a lot of others will
(probably including you).
Cheers,
Matthieu
--
> Jeremy
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org>.
On Oct 15, 2007, at 8:02 PM, Paul Fremantle wrote:
> Jeremy
>
> Neither of the two independents
>> are active in the core project areas of Java SCA or SDO (they are
>> committing to the C++ implementation or to DAS).
>
>
> Is it stated somewhere that the Java SCA/SDO components are "core"
> compared
> to C++ and DAS?
s/core/most active/
I still find it odd that Tuscany is aiming for graduation when in the
two most active sections of the project there are no active
independents.
>
> Taking a quick sample of the mailing list, the only contributors to
>> the discussion thread on Graduation, which I would assume would have
>> been a hot topic, were from the vendor.
>
>
> I remember contributing to discussion on Graduation. Maybe you
> don't count
> me? I know I'm an ex-corporate but then so are you!
I was thinking primarily of people who were on the TLP PMC proposal.
But yes, you and Matthew did help draft that proposal. As the
diversity sub-thread was taken to the private list (which is kind of
ironic in itself) there may also have been some discussion there I
missed as well.
As a mentor you are much closer to the project than I am - why do you
think Tuscany is ready to graduate with such a skewed PMC and
committer base?
--
Jeremy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>.
Jeremy
Neither of the two independents
> are active in the core project areas of Java SCA or SDO (they are
> committing to the C++ implementation or to DAS).
Is it stated somewhere that the Java SCA/SDO components are "core" compared
to C++ and DAS?
Taking a quick sample of the mailing list, the only contributors to
> the discussion thread on Graduation, which I would assume would have
> been a hot topic, were from the vendor.
I remember contributing to discussion on Graduation. Maybe you don't count
me? I know I'm an ex-corporate but then so are you!
Paul
--
Paul Fremantle
Co-Founder and VP of Technical Sales, WSO2
OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org>.
On Oct 13, 2007, at 10:07 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Ant,
>
> Are there any issues that should be pointed out, such as the
> (hopefully)
> mechanical licensing header issue in stdcxx, or community
> diversity, which
> at least in part is measuring independence from corporate backing
> (a popular
> thread this past month)? It seems that the latter should be well
> in hand,
> but I'll not assume. :-)
Noel
I've expressed some concern before about diversity and independence
[1]. At the time, 11 out of 12 members proposed for the TLP's PMC
worked for a single organization. Since then, a couple more people
have been added but the ratio is still 13 out of 16. Yes, there are 3
organizations represented but control still lies with one bloc.
The project has voted in 19 new committers, but 12 of those work for
the same organization as above. Many have dropped out - at this time
there are only 2 committers active[2] who don't work for that
organization, compared to 11 who do. Neither of the two independents
are active in the core project areas of Java SCA or SDO (they are
committing to the C++ implementation or to DAS).
Taking a quick sample of the mailing list, the only contributors to
the discussion thread on Graduation, which I would assume would have
been a hot topic, were from the vendor.
I think more work is needed to reduce the dependency on and influence
by a single corporate.
--
Jeremy
[1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ws-tuscany-dev/
200710.mbox/%3c3F97441F-4EB2-4386-8ADE-B783BBF3EC2B@apache.org%3e
[2] commit in the last 3 months
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Ant,
Are there any issues that should be pointed out, such as the (hopefully)
mechanical licensing header issue in stdcxx, or community diversity, which
at least in part is measuring independence from corporate backing (a popular
thread this past month)? It seems that the latter should be well in hand,
but I'll not assume. :-)
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org