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Posted to dev@hc.apache.org by Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com> on 2006/03/14 00:23:46 UTC
Http components to Network components ?
Hi,
I'd like to propose something which came up during the current talks on
Jakarta's future.
One suggestion was that instead of creating Jakarta Http Components,
this group could be Jakarta Network Components.
In essence, this would mean adopting commons-net
(http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/net).
The idea is based on a premise that http and net (ftp/finger/smtp...)
might share common interests and could thus form a common community.
The downside is that it may distract this group from its current plans,
and it may also be that no-one here is that interested in ftp/smtp/nntp
etc. Also, commons-net is a mature product with relatively little
community - one which might benefit from a broader outlook.
Anyway, please consider this as a brainstorm idea. Nothing is being
forced on you. Think of it as an opportunity if you guys are interested.
If not, then at least the suggestion was made!
Stephen
PS. I'm aware that this discussion might have been better a few months
ago...
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Re: Http components to Network components ?
Posted by Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 10:17 -0500, Ryan Smith wrote:
> Hi Roland ,
>
> >[...]
> >There is some potential for generalizing things. A network layer is
> >one example: SSL/TLS and SOCKS support for all network components.
> >The HttpParams stuff is another example, or maybe commons-net has
> >their own parameter framework which we'd have to merge.
> >But generalizing and changing all network components to use the new
> >APIs is a lot of work and even more discussion. Currently, Oleg is
> >doing almost all the coding on HttpComponents and all on HttpClient,
> >and I'm helping him a little with HttpComponents. Others are providing
> >valuable feedback, reviews and suggestions, but they are not driving
> >development. The two of us are not enough to come up with a complete
> >HttpComponents in the near future, let alone to take over even more
> >code that needs refactoring.
> >Unless a whole bunch of active developers are moving over with the
> >code, I am very much in disfavor of a change that would in essence
> >mean generating plenty of work nobody will be doing.
> >
> >cheers,
> > Roland
>
> What should i do first if I would like to offer help to the http
> components project?
Hi Ryan,
Just hang around the mailing list, keep track of what is being
discussed, participate in discussions, and see what you find most
interesting and closest to your skill set. Sooner or later an
opportunity to contribute to the project will present itself.
Another venue to start contributing to any open-source project is the
issue tracking system. Take a look at the open issues, pick up any
outstanding one that you think you can solve, work on it, and submit a
fix. Sometimes, going after simplest bugs is the best strategy to work
yourself into the project: you will learn how to get the latest code
snapshot, run unit tests, create patches, and ultimately your way around
the code base.
There is plenty of work that needs to be done. It is just a matter of
finding something to work on that will keep you motivated
Cheers,
Oleg
> I have time on the weekends to help doc or organize or refactor or
> interface or unit test or offer annoying suggestions , etc... LMK
> Thanks :)
>
> -Ryan
>
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Re: Http components to Network components ?
Posted by Ryan Smith <rs...@livedatagroup.com>.
Hi Roland ,
>[...]
>There is some potential for generalizing things. A network layer is
>one example: SSL/TLS and SOCKS support for all network components.
>The HttpParams stuff is another example, or maybe commons-net has
>their own parameter framework which we'd have to merge.
>But generalizing and changing all network components to use the new
>APIs is a lot of work and even more discussion. Currently, Oleg is
>doing almost all the coding on HttpComponents and all on HttpClient,
>and I'm helping him a little with HttpComponents. Others are providing
>valuable feedback, reviews and suggestions, but they are not driving
>development. The two of us are not enough to come up with a complete
>HttpComponents in the near future, let alone to take over even more
>code that needs refactoring.
>Unless a whole bunch of active developers are moving over with the
>code, I am very much in disfavor of a change that would in essence
>mean generating plenty of work nobody will be doing.
>
>cheers,
> Roland
What should i do first if I would like to offer help to the http
components project?
I have time on the weekends to help doc or organize or refactor or
interface or unit test or offer annoying suggestions , etc... LMK
Thanks :)
-Ryan
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Re: Http components to Network components ?
Posted by Roland Weber <ht...@dubioso.net>.
Hi Ryan,
> And all the code that is common to smtp, http, ftp, irc, etc.... could
> go in the commons-net layer.
>
> [...] to avoid code/method duplication
> across various projects all working on the same issues...... like if
> the httpComponenets project
> improves socket timeout handeling (or some other basic network layer
> advantage), it would be nice if all the protocols were able to benefit
> from the new code, not just http components.
We are very much trying to stay away from basic network layer stuff.
We have to create sockets and secure sockets, so we defined interfaces
with default implementations - just to isolate the network layer.
The default implementations rely on standard JDK APIs.
Also, one of the primary targets of the http-core component was to
avoid any external dependencies.
If we had Jakarta Network Components with a basic network layer, we
would provide another, non-default implementation for the above
mentioned interfaces which would be based on the new network layer.
Speaking from an HttpComponents perspective, that means more code
instead of less duplication.
There is some potential for generalizing things. A network layer is
one example: SSL/TLS and SOCKS support for all network components.
The HttpParams stuff is another example, or maybe commons-net has
their own parameter framework which we'd have to merge.
But generalizing and changing all network components to use the new
APIs is a lot of work and even more discussion. Currently, Oleg is
doing almost all the coding on HttpComponents and all on HttpClient,
and I'm helping him a little with HttpComponents. Others are providing
valuable feedback, reviews and suggestions, but they are not driving
development. The two of us are not enough to come up with a complete
HttpComponents in the near future, let alone to take over even more
code that needs refactoring.
Unless a whole bunch of active developers are moving over with the
code, I am very much in disfavor of a change that would in essence
mean generating plenty of work nobody will be doing.
cheers,
Roland
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Re: Http components to Network components ?
Posted by Ryan Smith <rs...@livedatagroup.com>.
I think its a great idea,
Here's my 2 cents, (c) (c)
it would be great if httpComponents was the child from a larger project
like commons-net.
And all the code that is common to smtp, http, ftp, irc, etc.... could
go in the commons-net layer.
I use http client all the time, and i occasionally need the ftp/smtp/irc
protocol, it would be nice if
all this stuff was in the same place to plug it in easier :) and of
course to avoid code/method duplication
across various projects all working on the same issues...... like if
the httpComponenets project
improves socket timeout handeling (or some other basic network layer
advantage), it would be nice if all the protocols were able to benefit
from the new code, not just http components.
Ok, ive said enough, flame on.
-Ryan
Stephen Colebourne wrote:
> Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
>> Can we expect any of the existing Commons [Net] committers to join the
>> project if we took the Commons [Net] on board? Would they be willing to
>> split the code base into a separate module per a network protocol?
>> Otherwise wouldn't it be kind of silly if we had almost a dozen modules
>> dedicated to various aspects of HTTP and one module containing all other
>> protocols (ftp, smtp, finger, and so on)?
>
> My answer is 'I don't know'. As this is at the brainstorm level, I've
> not yet proposed it to commons-net yet. (Think of it as offering you
> guys first refusal).
>
> I agree with your analysis though. To work sensibly, would involve
> commons-net becoming smaller units.
>
> Do you want me to propose the suggestion on commons-dev?
>
> Stephen
>
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Re: Http components to Network components ?
Posted by Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com>.
Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> I am really reluctant to get ourselves dragged into yet another endless
> discussion on how to make inactive projects active by shuffling then
> around the Jakarta web site. Unless a decision can be made fast, and
> some _real_ people are prepared to spend _real_ hours on reorganizing
> Commons [Net], I believe we are much better off on our own. I am much
> more interested in writing and reviewing code than renaming mailing
> lists and migrating Bugzilla issue reports.
I started this thread a little reluctantly. I did so because I thought I
saw a consensus forming elsewhere and I wanted to provide a suggestion
to this list. However, very recent emails on commons indicate to me that
where I thought a consensus might have been forming, it actually isn't yet.
> I leave this decision to your best judgment.
Actually, I have very little say in this. Its your code and community
much more than mine.
My opinion based on what I've seen here and on commons is that you
should proceed with the promotion now. This idea can then be
reconsidered in a few months if needs be.
Stephen
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Re: Http components to Network components ?
Posted by Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 2006-03-14 at 21:04 +0000, Stephen Colebourne wrote:
> Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> > Can we expect any of the existing Commons [Net] committers to join the
> > project if we took the Commons [Net] on board? Would they be willing to
> > split the code base into a separate module per a network protocol?
> > Otherwise wouldn't it be kind of silly if we had almost a dozen modules
> > dedicated to various aspects of HTTP and one module containing all other
> > protocols (ftp, smtp, finger, and so on)?
>
> My answer is 'I don't know'. As this is at the brainstorm level, I've
> not yet proposed it to commons-net yet. (Think of it as offering you
> guys first refusal).
>
> I agree with your analysis though. To work sensibly, would involve
> commons-net becoming smaller units.
>
> Do you want me to propose the suggestion on commons-dev?
>
Stephen,
I am really reluctant to get ourselves dragged into yet another endless
discussion on how to make inactive projects active by shuffling then
around the Jakarta web site. Unless a decision can be made fast, and
some _real_ people are prepared to spend _real_ hours on reorganizing
Commons [Net], I believe we are much better off on our own. I am much
more interested in writing and reviewing code than renaming mailing
lists and migrating Bugzilla issue reports.
I leave this decision to your best judgment.
Cheers,
Oleg
> Stephen
>
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Re: Http components to Network components ?
Posted by Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com>.
Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> Can we expect any of the existing Commons [Net] committers to join the
> project if we took the Commons [Net] on board? Would they be willing to
> split the code base into a separate module per a network protocol?
> Otherwise wouldn't it be kind of silly if we had almost a dozen modules
> dedicated to various aspects of HTTP and one module containing all other
> protocols (ftp, smtp, finger, and so on)?
My answer is 'I don't know'. As this is at the brainstorm level, I've
not yet proposed it to commons-net yet. (Think of it as offering you
guys first refusal).
I agree with your analysis though. To work sensibly, would involve
commons-net becoming smaller units.
Do you want me to propose the suggestion on commons-dev?
Stephen
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Re: Http components to Network components ?
Posted by Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2006-03-13 at 23:23 +0000, Stephen Colebourne wrote:
> Hi,
> I'd like to propose something which came up during the current talks on
> Jakarta's future.
>
> One suggestion was that instead of creating Jakarta Http Components,
> this group could be Jakarta Network Components.
>
> In essence, this would mean adopting commons-net
> (http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/net).
>
> The idea is based on a premise that http and net (ftp/finger/smtp...)
> might share common interests and could thus form a common community.
>
>
> The downside is that it may distract this group from its current plans,
> and it may also be that no-one here is that interested in ftp/smtp/nntp
> etc. Also, commons-net is a mature product with relatively little
> community - one which might benefit from a broader outlook.
>
Stephen,
Can we expect any of the existing Commons [Net] committers to join the
project if we took the Commons [Net] on board? Would they be willing to
split the code base into a separate module per a network protocol?
Otherwise wouldn't it be kind of silly if we had almost a dozen modules
dedicated to various aspects of HTTP and one module containing all other
protocols (ftp, smtp, finger, and so on)?
Oleg
>
> Anyway, please consider this as a brainstorm idea. Nothing is being
> forced on you. Think of it as an opportunity if you guys are interested.
> If not, then at least the suggestion was made!
>
> Stephen
> PS. I'm aware that this discussion might have been better a few months
> ago...
>
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Re: Http components to Network components ?
Posted by Ortwin Glück <od...@odi.ch>.
Hi Stephen,
Although I don't know commons net too well, I guess we have less in
common with them than for instance with Tomcat or Fileupload. The
"closest" relationship I can only see in FTP - and even that is marginal.
But we'll happily incorporate a common CSS of course. No need to
contribute even more to the existing ASF web design mess.
IMHO this whole discussion about reforming communities is twofold:
A. The project maintainer's point of view: They want a community for a
certain topic. They make certain products. That's developer community
and team structure: dev mailing lists, SVN, dev wiki, access rights.
B. Our users' point of view: They want to find information and products
in places where they expect them. That's communication and user
community structure: user mailing lists, website, downloads, user wiki,
rss, news.
Unfortunately the two abstract structures differ quite strongly from
each other. But currently it's structure A which produces the
materialization of structure B. Speaking in design terms the two are
strongly coupled. That makes it impossible to modify them individually.
Restruturing A will affect B. And to restructure B you must modify A.
That's why companies have "corporate communication": to hide complexity
from their customers behind a facade and to decouple the two structures.
Conversely here at ASF we slap our dev structure directly in the face of
our user communities who hardly can cope with it.
I quite like the meta site approach that
http://projects.apache.org/index.html takes a lot. It is very promising.
Ortwin Glück
Stephen Colebourne wrote:
> Hi,
> I'd like to propose something which came up during the current talks on
> Jakarta's future.
>
> One suggestion was that instead of creating Jakarta Http Components,
> this group could be Jakarta Network Components.
>
> In essence, this would mean adopting commons-net
> (http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/net).
>
> The idea is based on a premise that http and net (ftp/finger/smtp...)
> might share common interests and could thus form a common community.
>
>
> The downside is that it may distract this group from its current plans,
> and it may also be that no-one here is that interested in ftp/smtp/nntp
> etc. Also, commons-net is a mature product with relatively little
> community - one which might benefit from a broader outlook.
>
>
> Anyway, please consider this as a brainstorm idea. Nothing is being
> forced on you. Think of it as an opportunity if you guys are interested.
> If not, then at least the suggestion was made!
>
> Stephen
> PS. I'm aware that this discussion might have been better a few months
> ago...
>
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Re: Http components to Network components ?
Posted by Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2006-03-13 at 23:23 +0000, Stephen Colebourne wrote:
> Hi,
> I'd like to propose something which came up during the current talks on
> Jakarta's future.
>
> One suggestion was that instead of creating Jakarta Http Components,
> this group could be Jakarta Network Components.
>
> In essence, this would mean adopting commons-net
> (http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/net).
>
> The idea is based on a premise that http and net (ftp/finger/smtp...)
> might share common interests and could thus form a common community.
>
>
> The downside is that it may distract this group from its current plans,
> and it may also be that no-one here is that interested in ftp/smtp/nntp
> etc. Also, commons-net is a mature product with relatively little
> community - one which might benefit from a broader outlook.
>
>
> Anyway, please consider this as a brainstorm idea. Nothing is being
> forced on you. Think of it as an opportunity if you guys are interested.
> If not, then at least the suggestion was made!
>
> Stephen
> PS. I'm aware that this discussion might have been better a few months
> ago...
>
Stephen,
My initial reaction to this is not very positive simply based on the
fact that the project has already been re-branded twice in the past two
years: from Jakarta Commons HttpClient to Jakarta HttpClient to Jakarta
HttpComponents. This time around it is getting a little too much. At the
same since we have not had a single public release as Jakarta HttpClient
or Jakarta HttpComponents, yet another rebranding is still an option.
I need to sleep this idea over. Literally.
Talk to you tomorrow
Oleg
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Re: Http components to Network components ?
Posted by Roland Weber <ht...@dubioso.net>.
Hi Stephen,
looks like I'm a little late to this discussion.
Anyway, I'll throw in my 0.02€ for the records.
In general, I agree with the concerns others have already voiced. If
commons-net would be moved over as a monolithic block, we would have
to split "network components" into "network components for HTTP" and
"network components for anything else", which is not an improvement.
cheers,
Roland
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