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Posted to derby-commits@db.apache.org by Kathey Marsden <km...@sbcglobal.net> on 2006/06/09 02:29:03 UTC
New updates to the Wiki - Should they be here? (was Re: [Db-derby
Wiki] Update of "LifeCache" by DonaldMcLean)
Apache Wiki wrote:
>Dear Wiki user,
>
>You have subscribed to a wiki page or wiki category on "Db-derby Wiki" for change notification.
>
>The following page has been changed by DonaldMcLean:
>http://wiki.apache.org/db-derby/LifeCache
>
>
>
I wonder if this content is really appropriate for the Derby Wiki.
I wonder if Donald knows that every single edit goes to the
derby-commits@db.apache.org mailing list.
Kathey
Re: Sharing user code
Posted by Daniel John Debrunner <dj...@apache.org>.
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> Daniel John Debrunner wrote:
>
>>Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>
>
> Previously, Jean wrote:
>
>>>>I haven't found a precedent for sharing user application code at the
>>>>ASF, so it appears this is a first.
>>
>>What about the Lucene sandbox?
>
>
> great idea, Dan -- I like the idea of a sandbox a lot.
>
> The sandboxes I know about at the ASF seem to mostly be mini-incubators
> for software destined for the core of the project. But it's clear that
> Lucene isn't restricting itself to just stuff destined for direct
> inclusion in Lucene. Likewise, the MyFaces sandbox is open to other
> "goodies".
>
> There's still reason to include examples on the Derby Wiki. One
> "dividing line" might be anything small enough to post to the derby list
> would be a good candidate for the Wiki. Anything too large to post to
> the list is a candidate for a sandbox, if we decide to create a Derby
> sandbox.
+1
An other view of the dividing line:
- Simple example, not likely to be worked on by others - Wiki
- Application/code that could form a development community -
sandbox/other site/derby sub-component/etc.
Dan.
Re: Sharing user code
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com>.
Daniel John Debrunner wrote:
> Jean T. Anderson wrote:
Previously, Jean wrote:
>>>I haven't found a precedent for sharing user application code at the
>>>ASF, so it appears this is a first.
>
> What about the Lucene sandbox?
great idea, Dan -- I like the idea of a sandbox a lot.
The sandboxes I know about at the ASF seem to mostly be mini-incubators
for software destined for the core of the project. But it's clear that
Lucene isn't restricting itself to just stuff destined for direct
inclusion in Lucene. Likewise, the MyFaces sandbox is open to other
"goodies".
There's still reason to include examples on the Derby Wiki. One
"dividing line" might be anything small enough to post to the derby list
would be a good candidate for the Wiki. Anything too large to post to
the list is a candidate for a sandbox, if we decide to create a Derby
sandbox.
-jean
Re: Sharing user code (Was Re: New updates to the Wiki - Should
they be here? )
Posted by Daniel John Debrunner <dj...@apache.org>.
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> note: I'm dropping dmclean@stsci.edu from the cc because we're headed
> down a Derby project policy path.
>
> Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>
>>Daniel John Debrunner wrote:
>
>
> <snipping>
>
>>>Seems like the Derby wiki may be ok for sharing sample code for Derby,
>>>but not the code for or developing a complete application. Lots of
>>>applications can use Derby, doesn't mena they need to be hosted on
>>>Derby's wiki.
>>
>>I haven't found a precedent for sharing user application code at the
>>ASF, so it appears this is a first.
What about the Lucene sandbox?
>>The line between "sample" and "complete application" will be blurry.
>>Ideally, any sample should be able to be built and run. Then the
>>question becomes, how big is too big? And how does that decision get made?
>
>
> There is derby interest in sharing user code; see the thread starting at:
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-dev/200603.mbox/%3c4411F9DD.5070500@gmail.com%3e
I think sharing code is good. I think using Derby resources
(wiki/mailing lists) to develop a project to be shared is not good.
People on the developer & user list are probably not interested in the
development discussion of, say, a personal information mangagment
system, though they might be interested in looking at the final result.
Dan.
Sharing user code (Was Re: New updates to the Wiki - Should they
be here? )
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com>.
note: I'm dropping dmclean@stsci.edu from the cc because we're headed
down a Derby project policy path.
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> Daniel John Debrunner wrote:
<snipping>
>>Seems like the Derby wiki may be ok for sharing sample code for Derby,
>>but not the code for or developing a complete application. Lots of
>>applications can use Derby, doesn't mena they need to be hosted on
>>Derby's wiki.
>
> I haven't found a precedent for sharing user application code at the
> ASF, so it appears this is a first.
>
> The line between "sample" and "complete application" will be blurry.
> Ideally, any sample should be able to be built and run. Then the
> question becomes, how big is too big? And how does that decision get made?
There is derby interest in sharing user code; see the thread starting at:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-dev/200603.mbox/%3c4411F9DD.5070500@gmail.com%3e
My only experience with sharing user code is the International Informix
Users Group ( http://www.iiug.org/ ), which I used to be active in many
years ago. That web site hosts many user contributions, great and small.
Does anyone know of/have experience with any open source projects that
manage user contributions?
-jean
Re: New updates to the Wiki - Should they be here? (was Re: [Db-derby
Wiki] Update of "LifeCache" by DonaldMcLean)
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com>.
Donald McLean wrote:
> My intention was as much to create an interesting sample of using Derby
> and Hibernate together as it was to create a useful application.
>
> However, if it is felt that this isn't the appropriate place for this
> then I will certainly move or delete it.
You're breaking new Derby ground here, Donald. Let's give derby-dev time
to discuss it. I started a new thread on derby-dev with the subject
"Sharing user code". I dropped you from the cc, but you're welcome to
subscribe to derby-dev and participate in the discussion.
-jean
> Donald
>
> Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>
>> Daniel John Debrunner wrote:
>>
>>> Kathey Marsden wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> The following page has been changed by DonaldMcLean:
>>>>> http://wiki.apache.org/db-derby/LifeCache
>>>>>
>>>> I wonder if this content is really appropriate for the Derby Wiki.
>>>
>>> I don't believe it is. If this is a potential open-source project then a
>>> wiki is not the mechanism for community development. Something like
>>> sourceforge or Donald applying to the apache incubator is best.
>>>
>>> Seems like the Derby wiki may be ok for sharing sample code for Derby,
>>> but not the code for or developing a complete application. Lots of
>>> applications can use Derby, doesn't mena they need to be hosted on
>>> Derby's wiki.
>>
>>
>> I haven't found a precedent for sharing user application code at the
>> ASF, so it appears this is a first.
>>
>> The line between "sample" and "complete application" will be blurry.
>> Ideally, any sample should be able to be built and run. Then the
>> question becomes, how big is too big? And how does that decision get
>> made?
>
>
Re: New updates to the Wiki - Should they be here? (was Re: [Db-derby
Wiki] Update of "LifeCache" by DonaldMcLean)
Posted by Donald McLean <dm...@stsci.edu>.
My intention was as much to create an interesting sample of using Derby
and Hibernate together as it was to create a useful application.
However, if it is felt that this isn't the appropriate place for this
then I will certainly move or delete it.
Donald
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> Daniel John Debrunner wrote:
>> Kathey Marsden wrote:
>>
>>>> The following page has been changed by DonaldMcLean:
>>>> http://wiki.apache.org/db-derby/LifeCache
>>>>
>>> I wonder if this content is really appropriate for the Derby Wiki.
>> I don't believe it is. If this is a potential open-source project then a
>> wiki is not the mechanism for community development. Something like
>> sourceforge or Donald applying to the apache incubator is best.
>>
>> Seems like the Derby wiki may be ok for sharing sample code for Derby,
>> but not the code for or developing a complete application. Lots of
>> applications can use Derby, doesn't mena they need to be hosted on
>> Derby's wiki.
>
> I haven't found a precedent for sharing user application code at the
> ASF, so it appears this is a first.
>
> The line between "sample" and "complete application" will be blurry.
> Ideally, any sample should be able to be built and run. Then the
> question becomes, how big is too big? And how does that decision get made?
Re: New updates to the Wiki - Should they be here? (was Re: [Db-derby
Wiki] Update of "LifeCache" by DonaldMcLean)
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com>.
Daniel John Debrunner wrote:
> Kathey Marsden wrote:
>
>>>The following page has been changed by DonaldMcLean:
>>>http://wiki.apache.org/db-derby/LifeCache
>>>
>>I wonder if this content is really appropriate for the Derby Wiki.
>
> I don't believe it is. If this is a potential open-source project then a
> wiki is not the mechanism for community development. Something like
> sourceforge or Donald applying to the apache incubator is best.
>
> Seems like the Derby wiki may be ok for sharing sample code for Derby,
> but not the code for or developing a complete application. Lots of
> applications can use Derby, doesn't mena they need to be hosted on
> Derby's wiki.
I haven't found a precedent for sharing user application code at the
ASF, so it appears this is a first.
The line between "sample" and "complete application" will be blurry.
Ideally, any sample should be able to be built and run. Then the
question becomes, how big is too big? And how does that decision get made?
-jean
Re: New updates to the Wiki - Should they be here? (was Re: [Db-derby
Wiki] Update of "LifeCache" by DonaldMcLean)
Posted by Daniel John Debrunner <dj...@apache.org>.
Kathey Marsden wrote:
>> The following page has been changed by DonaldMcLean:
>> http://wiki.apache.org/db-derby/LifeCache
>>
>>
>>
> I wonder if this content is really appropriate for the Derby Wiki.
I don't believe it is. If this is a potential open-source project then a
wiki is not the mechanism for community development. Something like
sourceforge or Donald applying to the apache incubator is best.
Seems like the Derby wiki may be ok for sharing sample code for Derby,
but not the code for or developing a complete application. Lots of
applications can use Derby, doesn't mena they need to be hosted on
Derby's wiki.
Dan.
Re: New updates to the Wiki - Should they be here? (was Re: [Db-derby
Wiki] Update of "LifeCache" by DonaldMcLean)
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com>.
Donald McLean wrote:
> Actually, no. Since I'm not subscribed to that list, I would not have
> any way of knowing.
ok, you now know. :-) Saving Wiki updates is good, means you won't lose
your work. It's also good to know that each save causes a notification
to be sent.
> However, I really have to question the wisdom of that policy. My
> understand is that a wiki should be a living, breathing space where
> people have no compunctions about making whatever changes and
> contributions they deem to be necessary or useful.
I don't know that it's so much "policy" as asf convention.
It makes project oversight easier, which is a good thing. It was good
that Kathey paid attention to the commit notifications and it was
excellent that she questioned the updates. In your case, you had already
communicated with derby-user regarding your project and I could point
that out.
But take, for example, a hypothetical malicious case where somebody
overwrites the main derby wiki page with junk (this has happened at the
asf on another project). We would want to know about this asap, not the
next time one of us happened to go out to the Wiki. We also want to know
if anyone is uploading code to the Wiki that isn't available under an
ASL or ASL-compatible license. Wiki commit notifications keep us from
stumbling on surprises later.
I hope this helps explain the rationale.
regards,
-jean
> Donald
>
> Kathey Marsden wrote:
>
>> I wonder if Donald knows that every single edit goes to the
>> derby-commits@db.apache.org mailing list.
>
>
Re: New updates to the Wiki - Should they be here? (was Re: [Db-derby
Wiki] Update of "LifeCache" by DonaldMcLean)
Posted by Donald McLean <dm...@stsci.edu>.
Actually, no. Since I'm not subscribed to that list, I would not have
any way of knowing.
However, I really have to question the wisdom of that policy. My
understand is that a wiki should be a living, breathing space where
people have no compunctions about making whatever changes and
contributions they deem to be necessary or useful.
Donald
Kathey Marsden wrote:
> I wonder if Donald knows that every single edit goes to the
> derby-commits@db.apache.org mailing list.
Re: New updates to the Wiki - Should they be here? (was Re: [Db-derby
Wiki] Update of "LifeCache" by DonaldMcLean)
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com>.
Kathey Marsden wrote:
> Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>
>> The Derby Wiki is really the only place I can think of for end users to
>> contribute work that isn't part of the Derby core. I personally think
>> it's nice for users to have a place to share code.
>>
> ok. Sorry for the trouble.
No problem -- it's a good question. Back in March there was a derby-dev
thread on user code sharing:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-dev/200603.mbox/%3c44188872.8000903@bristowhill.com%3e
Donald's first hibernate example at
http://wiki.apache.org/db-derby/DatabaseManager prodded me to discuss
users sharing code on the Wiki with community@ and legal-discuss@ , and
I ended up putting this page on the Wiki:
http://wiki.apache.org/db-derby/UploadingCode
-jean
Re: New updates to the Wiki - Should they be here? (was Re: [Db-derby
Wiki] Update of "LifeCache" by DonaldMcLean)
Posted by Kathey Marsden <km...@sbcglobal.net>.
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>The Derby Wiki is really the only place I can think of for end users to
>contribute work that isn't part of the Derby core. I personally think
>it's nice for users to have a place to share code.
>
>
>
ok. Sorry for the trouble.
Kathey
Re: New updates to the Wiki - Should they be here? (was Re: [Db-derby
Wiki] Update of "LifeCache" by DonaldMcLean)
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com>.
Kathey Marsden wrote:
<snip>
>> The following page has been changed by DonaldMcLean:
>> http://wiki.apache.org/db-derby/LifeCache
>>
> I wonder if this content is really appropriate for the Derby Wiki.
> I wonder if Donald knows that every single edit goes to the
> derby-commits@db.apache.org mailing list.
This has to do with the Derby + Hibernate project Donald posted to
derby-user:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-user/200605.mbox/%3c052120061753.19559.4470A92F000BCDF000004C672213575333CDC0020E0A040C030B@comcast.net%3e
The Derby Wiki is really the only place I can think of for end users to
contribute work that isn't part of the Derby core. I personally think
it's nice for users to have a place to share code.
Is there a better place?
Wiki updates do result in commit notifications. --This is a standard at
the ASF. I just delete the traffic that doesn't interest me.
-jean