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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Tony Collen <co...@umn.edu> on 2004/06/04 22:32:01 UTC
Redesigning the Samples
As some of you may have seen, I've been poking around in the CSS of the samples lately. I've been
playing around with the design in Photoshop, and I've come up with a design that I think is Pretty
Damn Good(tm)
Screenshot at:
http://rose.ce.umn.edu/images/misc/cocoon-mockup.gif
If nobody objects, I will commit the changes Monday, suggestions are welcome.
Regards,
Tony, who had an itch big enough to scratch.
Re: Redesigning the Samples
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
Hi Tony:
As many on the list, I believe good looking pages are better and encourage
people to use a product. I think it is inside our human nature that also
"inconsiently give points" for external good looking things, even when we
don't know what is inside. A well knowed phrase said:
"A good looking package sell by itself"
I know we are not selling nothing, but we will be glad to give a more
professional look to our community project. I think in that noone is
against.
I think while a lot of people don't have concerns about how good is XML et
al. They have concerns about how well we can develop good looking pages. I
often hear a "wow" when people look at some pages done with Cocoon. The
"wow" is because they don't believed that with Cocoon they are able to do
good looking pages. This is changing and fortunately, we also have many
samples sites to look with diferents designs.
Your efforts enhancing for a better look Cocoon site is important for us.
Don't think that because people don't reply was because they don't care.
We really care your effort. Your mail was reading by many of us. Often, we
choose to not reply, because we thought the work is good and this is a
"silent" +1 too. We learned this in Cocoon. As you, I have exactly the
same time as Cocoon committer. Even no second more or less. ;-)
The replies to your works was just critics to get into account. As your
pointed it is hard to reach consensus, but in this case there were just 2
concerns:
1-The logo don't need to be changed for historic reasons.
2-Try to use the least space in the header.
I think both requested changes are easily manageable by you. Please try
again and reach the consesus. Is it OK? ;-)
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo
Re: Redesigning the Samples
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Tony Collen wrote:.
>
> One problem that I encounter a lot when building web sites and doing
> graphic design for people is that if a design is put in front of 50
> people, you'll get 50 different suggestions as to how to make it better
> or more appealing. This makes it *very* hard to do something that
> everyone will agree to fully.
Absolutely. We developers are often in that situation.
Gee, it would be great if we did get feedback from 50 people,
even any people.
> I've found a few ways around this situation:
>
> - Ignore them, since you know better than they do (arrogant)
> - Try to appease everybody fully (doesn't work)
> - Take their suggestions into consideration, but keep working forward
> (useful, practical)
> - Try to compromise between what people want and what you think should
> happen (best IMO)
>
> Obviously, I favor the compromise route.
Yes, the only way to go. Who ever is doing the work, gets to
decide what to incorporate. It is their responsibility to
listen and decide wisely.
On the feed provider side, it is our responsibility to be
constructive in our comments. I did try to do that.
> Like I said, the page design
> bugged me enough to do something about it. Now I think we should find
> some sort of a compromise that won't dillute the Cocoon "brand" but try
> to snazz up the pages as much as possible, without pissing people off.
My comment about the wasted space at the top banner is
speaking from experience on this very cocoon-dev list
when we discussed and re-designed it last time. I still
feel strongly about the need to conserve screen space
for actual content rather than vast areas of blue or white.
> WDYT?
>
> Regards,
>
> Tony, who thought long and hard over the weekend about this message, and
> was originally angry about the poor reaction but got over it since he
> shouldn't take people's reactions as an attack against him personally.
It is up to you how you read feedback. I only used the
word "you" once.
Wow, it sounds like it was a good opensource lesson for
everyone then.
--David
Re: Redesigning the Samples
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Tony Collen wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>>
>> Tony, as wrote in my previous email, the logo was designed to be
>> simple, with a few colors, in order to be easier to print on things.
>>
>> Your version of the logo, although graphically more appealing, is too
>> complex for that.
>>
>> Also, simply put, we don't need a new logo as we don't need to signal
>> any change in direction.
>
>
> Alright, I can appreciate all these things. Thanks for clearing it up.
> I've only really been around Cocoon since 2.0.x, so I wasn't too
> familliar with the older incarnations of the logos. Looking at the logo
> on the 1.x page, I suddenly have more appreciation for the current one :)
eheh, this happens every other year, that's why I was -1 without
explaination (it has happened already in the past), but I apologize if
it sounded rude and irrespectful of the work that you placed into this,
it was not my intention to put you down.
I'm very glad of the way you handled your negative emotions.
>>> P.S. The cocoon2.ai Illustrator file in the current CVS won't even
>>> open in the latest version of Illustrator. This is bad because if we
>>> lose this file, we face losing original artwork.
>>
>> This is probably a newline corruption error. the file should be
>> treated as binary but CVS sometimes thinks it's text.
>>
> I'll see if I can pull it out of an older source tree. If it works, I'll
> just recommit the file.
Thanks.
--
Stefano.
Re: Redesigning the Samples
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
>>> ...P.S. The cocoon2.ai Illustrator file in the current CVS won't
>>> even open in the latest version of Illustrator. This is bad because
>>> if we lose this file, we face losing original artwork.
>> This is probably a newline corruption error. the file should be
>> treated as binary but CVS sometimes thinks it's text.
>
> I'll see if I can pull it out of an older source tree. If it works,
> I'll just recommit the file.
FYI, the svg version (misc/graphics/cocoon2.svg) opens fine here with
Illustrator 10.
I don't think the cocoon2.ai problem is related to binary/text as it
looks like a PostScript text file.
-Bertrand
Re: Redesigning the Samples
Posted by Tony Collen <co...@umn.edu>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> Tony, as wrote in my previous email, the logo was designed to be simple,
> with a few colors, in order to be easier to print on things.
>
> Your version of the logo, although graphically more appealing, is too
> complex for that.
>
> Also, simply put, we don't need a new logo as we don't need to signal
> any change in direction.
Alright, I can appreciate all these things. Thanks for clearing it up.
I've only really been around Cocoon since 2.0.x, so I wasn't too
familliar with the older incarnations of the logos. Looking at the logo
on the 1.x page, I suddenly have more appreciation for the current one :)
>> P.S. The cocoon2.ai Illustrator file in the current CVS won't even
>> open in the latest version of Illustrator. This is bad because if we
>> lose this file, we face losing original artwork.
>
>
> This is probably a newline corruption error. the file should be treated
> as binary but CVS sometimes thinks it's text.
>
I'll see if I can pull it out of an older source tree. If it works, I'll
just recommit the file.
Regards,
Tony
Re: Redesigning the Samples
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Tony Collen wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
>
>> Erk, i do not want to pour water on your efforts, but i was
>> already really happy with the original design. The only
>> thing that i would have changed would be to make the top
>> part of the page be even more compact.
>
>
> Welp, my personal opinion was that (putting it nicely) the page was
> lacking in the graphic design department. So I did something I thought
> was reasonable.
>
> I see people's arguments about dilluting the Cocoon "brand". I can
> understand this because I worked in an advertising agency for a few
> years, and many years ago I came very close to going to school for
> Graphic Design rather than Computer Science.
>
> I don't want to jeopardize the Cocoon brand by any means. I would like
> to express my concern about wanting to have a more professional image.
> Not necessarily more corporate looking, but I think a more polished look
> would greatly help the project, which led to my work.
>
> One problem that I encounter a lot when building web sites and doing
> graphic design for people is that if a design is put in front of 50
> people, you'll get 50 different suggestions as to how to make it better
> or more appealing. This makes it *very* hard to do something that
> everyone will agree to fully.
>
> I've found a few ways around this situation:
>
> - Ignore them, since you know better than they do (arrogant)
> - Try to appease everybody fully (doesn't work)
> - Take their suggestions into consideration, but keep working forward
> (useful, practical)
> - Try to compromise between what people want and what you think should
> happen (best IMO)
>
> Obviously, I favor the compromise route. Like I said, the page design
> bugged me enough to do something about it. Now I think we should find
> some sort of a compromise that won't dillute the Cocoon "brand" but try
> to snazz up the pages as much as possible, without pissing people off.
>
> WDYT?
Tony, as wrote in my previous email, the logo was designed to be simple,
with a few colors, in order to be easier to print on things.
Your version of the logo, although graphically more appealing, is too
complex for that.
Also, simply put, we don't need a new logo as we don't need to signal
any change in direction.
> Regards,
>
> Tony, who thought long and hard over the weekend about this message, and
> was originally angry about the poor reaction but got over it since he
> shouldn't take people's reactions as an attack against him personally.
Right, there is nothing personal and there is always a strong inertia in
any visual identity changes.
While I admit I have a personal bias since I'm the one who designed the
logo in the first place, the previous Cocoon 1.x logo was even more
graphically appealing than this but was hell to do anything with rather
than show on a web page. Thus the need for redesign (also to signal a
new generation of the project).
Right now, we have no need to change it since it's serving us perfectly
for the job.
Again, I'm talking about the logo only. If you want to improve the
stylesheets of the page, go for it.
> P.S. The cocoon2.ai Illustrator file in the current CVS won't even open
> in the latest version of Illustrator. This is bad because if we lose
> this file, we face losing original artwork.
This is probably a newline corruption error. the file should be treated
as binary but CVS sometimes thinks it's text.
--
Stefano.
Re: Redesigning the Samples
Posted by Tony Collen <co...@umn.edu>.
David Crossley wrote:
> Erk, i do not want to pour water on your efforts, but i was
> already really happy with the original design. The only
> thing that i would have changed would be to make the top
> part of the page be even more compact.
Welp, my personal opinion was that (putting it nicely) the page was
lacking in the graphic design department. So I did something I thought
was reasonable.
I see people's arguments about dilluting the Cocoon "brand". I can
understand this because I worked in an advertising agency for a few
years, and many years ago I came very close to going to school for
Graphic Design rather than Computer Science.
I don't want to jeopardize the Cocoon brand by any means. I would like
to express my concern about wanting to have a more professional image.
Not necessarily more corporate looking, but I think a more polished look
would greatly help the project, which led to my work.
One problem that I encounter a lot when building web sites and doing
graphic design for people is that if a design is put in front of 50
people, you'll get 50 different suggestions as to how to make it better
or more appealing. This makes it *very* hard to do something that
everyone will agree to fully.
I've found a few ways around this situation:
- Ignore them, since you know better than they do (arrogant)
- Try to appease everybody fully (doesn't work)
- Take their suggestions into consideration, but keep working forward
(useful, practical)
- Try to compromise between what people want and what you think should
happen (best IMO)
Obviously, I favor the compromise route. Like I said, the page design
bugged me enough to do something about it. Now I think we should find
some sort of a compromise that won't dillute the Cocoon "brand" but try
to snazz up the pages as much as possible, without pissing people off.
WDYT?
Regards,
Tony, who thought long and hard over the weekend about this message, and
was originally angry about the poor reaction but got over it since he
shouldn't take people's reactions as an attack against him personally.
P.S. The cocoon2.ai Illustrator file in the current CVS won't even open
in the latest version of Illustrator. This is bad because if we lose
this file, we face losing original artwork.
Re: Redesigning the Samples
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Tony Collen wrote:
> Screenshot at:
>
> http://rose.ce.umn.edu/images/misc/cocoon-mockup.gif
>
> If nobody objects, I will commit the changes Monday, suggestions are welcome.
The top banner seems to waste space. At one stage in
the past we had it like this - with everything centred.
Then it evolved to have three columns to try to give
more space for the important content. IMO this new
banner design is a backward step.
I don't like the rounded-corners. The presentation would
be sharper without them. They also seem to be cramping
the start of the headings text.
The font style for the headings seems to be too blocky,
not as crisp as it should be.
The footer i like as it is.
Erk, i do not want to pour water on your efforts, but i was
already really happy with the original design. The only
thing that i would have changed would be to make the top
part of the page be even more compact.
--David
Re: Redesigning the Samples
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Tony Collen wrote:
>
>> As some of you may have seen, I've been poking around in the CSS of
>> the samples lately. I've been playing around with the design in
>> Photoshop, and I've come up with a design that I think is Pretty Damn
>> Good(tm)
>>
>> Screenshot at:
>>
>> http://rose.ce.umn.edu/images/misc/cocoon-mockup.gif
>>
>> If nobody objects, I will commit the changes Monday, suggestions are
>> welcome.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tony, who had an itch big enough to scratch.
>
>
> -1 to the logo change.
>
> Otherwise +1
Same here: the logo is our identity. As old time Cocooner we have seen
it for a long time, hence the temptation to change it. But having
variations on the logo dilutes the brand for newcomers.
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: Redesigning the Samples
Posted by Tony Collen <co...@umn.edu>.
Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> -1 to the logo change.
>
>
>
> Any particular reason? Would you object to say, color change only? Or to
> slight letter shape changes?
>
Yes, I would like to know some reasons, too, instead of just "-1". I'd
like to thank Sylvain for his reasoning behind it, which is what I think
Stefano was getting at... just *useful* criticism would be more
helpful in the future.
> Just curious,
> Vadim
>
Best,
Tony
Re: Redesigning the Samples
Posted by Reinhard Poetz <re...@apache.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
>
>> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>>
>>> -1 to the logo change.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Any particular reason? Would you object to say, color change only? Or
>> to slight letter shape changes?
>
>
> Read what Sylvain wrote: changing in such a radical way dilutes the
> brand. why radical? well, logos shouldn't be shaded or they will be
> almost impossible to print on things.
>
> The cocoon 2.0 logo was designed to be vector graphics and no shades,
> so that it was easily embedded in almost all sort of merchandising.
>
> Lots of thinking went into that logo and I'm against changes just to
> refresh things. Cocoon has a strong identity now, and it's due also to
> the catchy name and the unique logo.
>
> I'm +1 to refreshing the look of the pages, but the logo shouldn't
> change or we signal a transition that might worry people.
>
+1
--
Reinhard
Re: Redesigning the Samples
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> -1 to the logo change.
>
>
>
> Any particular reason? Would you object to say, color change only? Or to
> slight letter shape changes?
Read what Sylvain wrote: changing in such a radical way dilutes the
brand. why radical? well, logos shouldn't be shaded or they will be
almost impossible to print on things.
The cocoon 2.0 logo was designed to be vector graphics and no shades, so
that it was easily embedded in almost all sort of merchandising.
Lots of thinking went into that logo and I'm against changes just to
refresh things. Cocoon has a strong identity now, and it's due also to
the catchy name and the unique logo.
I'm +1 to refreshing the look of the pages, but the logo shouldn't
change or we signal a transition that might worry people.
--
Stefano.
Re: Redesigning the Samples
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@reverycodes.com>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> -1 to the logo change.
Any particular reason? Would you object to say, color change only? Or to
slight letter shape changes?
Just curious,
Vadim
Re: Redesigning the Samples
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Tony Collen wrote:
> As some of you may have seen, I've been poking around in the CSS of the
> samples lately. I've been playing around with the design in Photoshop,
> and I've come up with a design that I think is Pretty Damn Good(tm)
>
> Screenshot at:
>
> http://rose.ce.umn.edu/images/misc/cocoon-mockup.gif
>
> If nobody objects, I will commit the changes Monday, suggestions are
> welcome.
>
> Regards,
> Tony, who had an itch big enough to scratch.
-1 to the logo change.
Otherwise +1
--
Stefano.
Re: Redesigning the Samples
Posted by Tony Collen <co...@umn.edu>.
Tony Collen wrote:
> Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
>>
>> Should footer also have a background? Just asking...
>
>
> Nope, didn't touch it....
I get -1 for reading comprehension. I should have said, "I'll try it out" :)
ATC
Re: Redesigning the Samples
Posted by Tony Collen <co...@umn.edu>.
Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
> Tony Collen wrote:
>
>> As some of you may have seen, I've been poking around in the CSS of
>> the samples lately. I've been playing around with the design in
>> Photoshop, and I've come up with a design that I think is Pretty Damn
>> Good(tm)
>>
>> Screenshot at:
>>
>> http://rose.ce.umn.edu/images/misc/cocoon-mockup.gif
>>
>> If nobody objects, I will commit the changes Monday, suggestions are
>> welcome.
>
>
>
> Looks good, and logo is especially good :-)
Cool, I'll have a slightly cleaner version once I crack open Illustrator.
>
> Should footer also have a background? Just asking...
Nope, didn't touch it....
>
> Vadim
>
Tony
Re: Redesigning the Samples
Posted by Joerg Heinicke <jo...@gmx.de>.
On 04.06.2004 23:40, Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
>> As some of you may have seen, I've been poking around in the CSS of
>> the samples lately. I've been playing around with the design in
>> Photoshop, and I've come up with a design that I think is Pretty Damn
>> Good(tm)
>>
>> Screenshot at:
>>
>> http://rose.ce.umn.edu/images/misc/cocoon-mockup.gif
>>
>> If nobody objects, I will commit the changes Monday, suggestions are
>> welcome.
>
> Looks good, and logo is especially good :-)
It's really cool!
> Should footer also have a background? Just asking...
Yes, I would like it.
Joerg
Re: Redesigning the Samples
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@reverycodes.com>.
Tony Collen wrote:
> As some of you may have seen, I've been poking around in the CSS of
> the samples lately. I've been playing around with the design in
> Photoshop, and I've come up with a design that I think is Pretty Damn
> Good(tm)
>
> Screenshot at:
>
> http://rose.ce.umn.edu/images/misc/cocoon-mockup.gif
>
> If nobody objects, I will commit the changes Monday, suggestions are
> welcome.
Looks good, and logo is especially good :-)
Should footer also have a background? Just asking...
Vadim