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Posted to dev@harmony.apache.org by Brad Cox <br...@gmail.com> on 2005/05/23 23:51:34 UTC
Sun lashes out at open source J2SE
http://www.infomaticsonline.co.uk/2135503
Sun lashes out at open source J2SE
Apache plans dubbed 'destructive'
Sun Microsystems has expressed "serious doubts" about the usefulness of
the latest Apache Foundation project to create an open source
implementation of the Java 2 Standard Edition (J2SE).
In an interview with *vnunet.com* <http://www.vnunet.com>, James
Gosling, Java creator and Sun vice president in charge of the
programming language, explained that he did not understand why the open
source consortium was undertaking the project.
"I would never do that," he said about Apache's Project Harmony. "There
are so many more interesting things to do with my life."
The Apache Foundation announced the project *earlier this month*
<http://www.infomaticsonline.co.uk/2127323>. The organisation aims to
collect a group of developers and create an open source implementation
of the J2SE, which is needed to run Java code on a desktop computer.
Sun requires J2SE implementations to pass rigorous testing requirements
before they can call themselves Java compliant. While this ensures
compatibility between the different J2SEs, it also means that the
functionalities of the final product are identical to Sun's existing
offering.
Sun put the detailed requirements in place to prevent "forking", a
fragmentation of the language that would force software developers to
certify their code for each fork.
A similar development with Linux allowed Red Hat and SuSE to become the
de facto standards. Major software vendors, such as Oracle and Computer
Associates, now certify their software only for these Linux distributions.
Sun welcomes contributions from outside the company to the source code,
and has a Java Community Process in place to foster discussion within
the developer community and encourage input on the future direction of
the language.
The inability to fork Java is the only major difference between the
software licence that Sun uses for Java and the GPL-like licence that
the Apache Foundation will use, according to Gosling.
"[Apache] says a lot of words about why they want to do it. Exactly why
is it critical to have a delta between our source licence and the source
licence that they think is appropriate?" he said.
"I understand why they would like it to be different. From our point of
view that would actually be more destructive than helpful. It boils down
to forking: they believe that the ability to fork is an absolutely
critical right."
Gosling claimed that Java developers of enterprise software support Sun
in its refusal to open the source code of Java. But they are eclipsed by
more vocal open source advocates.
"If we could get the enterprise software architects to be as vocal as
the Slashdot crowd, it would be a really interesting discussion," he said.
Sun will not contribute to the project, Gosling said, revoking a comment
that another Sun vice president made on his blog earlier.
"We hardly have the energy to work on our [J2SE implementation]. We'll
be glad to get co-operative and helpful, but there is only so much
energy that is free and donatable," Gosling told *vnunet.com*
<http://www.vnunet.com>.
In response to Gosling's remarks, Geir Magnusson, an independent
software developer with the Foundation, told /vnunet.com/ that Apache
does not aim to fork Java.
An open source J2SE implementation could allow the software to spread to
new devices, according to Magnusson, who pointed out that Sun's J2SE
only supports Solaris, Linux and Windows.
"This is about producing a J2SE implementation that can be taken and
ported and used in more places," he said.
"If I am building a device that uses Java and I could get a complete
J2SE implementation from Apache, then we would have a new place for Java.
"It would be nice if every Linux distribution came with Java. Java
should be like a dial-tone."
Magnusson added that current J2SE providers, such as IBM, BEA and Sun,
all have to build and test their own software. An open source
implementation would allow them to share that work.
He is not surprised by Sun's lack of enthusiasm about his latest
project, however. Magnusson has spoken with the company about Harmony
and has invited it to participate. "Sun is a little sceptical that we
are able to do it," he said.
Sun has provided Magnusson with a slot at the upcoming Java One
conference from 27-30 June in San Francisco.
The development of the open source J2SE software is expected to take
several years.
Re: Sun lashes out at open source J2SE
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> Eh.
>
> Lets just keep to our purpose and message of compatibility and
> openness. I'm familiar with getting misquoted, or pieces taken out of
> context, and I hope this is the case here.
Yeah.
I understand where James Gosling is coming from: he is concerned about
'forking' and I understand that. But he has to undertand that forking
the codebase and forking the functionality are two different things. The
artistic license, for example, allows you to fork the code *ONLY* if you
change all the APIs issues. I think somebody has to go down to his
office and let him know at least that, I think he has a little
stereotypical view of open source and thinks that we are all tinfoil hats.
But you see why a lot of people got burned in talking to Sun: you can't
show them the value of a community if their top management thinks that
no real software architect would ever work with a bunch of slashdot freaks.
Pretty blind, actually. Especially because Apache created more code and
value for the Java platform than anybody else. Oh well.
He does not understand our "clear need" to have a truly open code,
because he does *NOT* understand that we don't want the right to fork
the java platform (we can't call it java if we do, so what's the
point!), but we want the right to build a community around it. Sun
licenses don't give us that, therefore the need for Harmony.
But at the end, who cares: the JCP license allows us to do it, and our
not-for-profit status allows us to have access to the TCK for free.
We will not need words to show James Gosling that, ultimately, Harmony
is not going to be disruptive, but rather beneficial. And the reason for
this is that we value compatibility even more than he does: because a
lot of our salaries depend on it!
Let's get to work.
--
Stefano.
Re: Sun lashes out at open source J2SE
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On May 24, 2005, at 6:57 AM, Steve Heath wrote:
> Isn't the message here: Gosling misunderstands the point of Harmony?
> Anyone reading to the bottom of the article will be put right.
>
> Just a quick question tho'. The article mentions portability and
> distribution licensing. Isn't another part of the point that an OSS
> virtual machine (with the backing of a big foundation like apache)
> will be able to take advantage of the 'many eyes' principle, for bug
> reports/fixes and performance enhancements?
Sure - that's a benefit too. There's the "many hands" principle too,
as we collaborate and share the work.
geir
>
> On 5/24/05, Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>
>>> Eh.
>>>
>>> Lets just keep to our purpose and message of compatibility and
>>> openness.
>>>
>>
>> When we move from 'enthusiasm' to the 'project' more and more
>> 'doubts' will be seen :)
>>
>> Let's just play our song and let others have all the doubts they
>> wish.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mladen.
>>
>>
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Sun lashes out at open source J2SE
Posted by Steve Heath <st...@gmail.com>.
Isn't the message here: Gosling misunderstands the point of Harmony?
Anyone reading to the bottom of the article will be put right.
Just a quick question tho'. The article mentions portability and
distribution licensing. Isn't another part of the point that an OSS
virtual machine (with the backing of a big foundation like apache)
will be able to take advantage of the 'many eyes' principle, for bug
reports/fixes and performance enhancements?
On 5/24/05, Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org> wrote:
> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> > Eh.
> >
> > Lets just keep to our purpose and message of compatibility and
> > openness.
>
> When we move from 'enthusiasm' to the 'project' more and more
> 'doubts' will be seen :)
>
> Let's just play our song and let others have all the doubts they wish.
>
> Regards,
> Mladen.
>
Re: Sun lashes out at open source J2SE
Posted by Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> Eh.
>
> Lets just keep to our purpose and message of compatibility and
> openness.
When we move from 'enthusiasm' to the 'project' more and more
'doubts' will be seen :)
Let's just play our song and let others have all the doubts they wish.
Regards,
Mladen.
Re: Sun lashes out at open source J2SE
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
Eh.
Lets just keep to our purpose and message of compatibility and
openness. I'm familiar with getting misquoted, or pieces taken out
of context, and I hope this is the case here.
geir
On May 23, 2005, at 5:51 PM, Brad Cox wrote:
> http://www.infomaticsonline.co.uk/2135503
>
>
> Sun lashes out at open source J2SE
>
>
> Apache plans dubbed 'destructive'
>
> Sun Microsystems has expressed "serious doubts" about the
> usefulness of the latest Apache Foundation project to create an
> open source implementation of the Java 2 Standard Edition (J2SE).
>
> In an interview with *vnunet.com* <http://www.vnunet.com>, James
> Gosling, Java creator and Sun vice president in charge of the
> programming language, explained that he did not understand why the
> open source consortium was undertaking the project.
>
> "I would never do that," he said about Apache's Project Harmony.
> "There are so many more interesting things to do with my life."
>
> The Apache Foundation announced the project *earlier this month*
> <http://www.infomaticsonline.co.uk/2127323>. The organisation aims
> to collect a group of developers and create an open source
> implementation of the J2SE, which is needed to run Java code on a
> desktop computer.
>
> Sun requires J2SE implementations to pass rigorous testing
> requirements before they can call themselves Java compliant. While
> this ensures compatibility between the different J2SEs, it also
> means that the functionalities of the final product are identical
> to Sun's existing offering.
>
> Sun put the detailed requirements in place to prevent "forking", a
> fragmentation of the language that would force software developers
> to certify their code for each fork.
>
> A similar development with Linux allowed Red Hat and SuSE to become
> the de facto standards. Major software vendors, such as Oracle and
> Computer Associates, now certify their software only for these
> Linux distributions.
>
> Sun welcomes contributions from outside the company to the source
> code, and has a Java Community Process in place to foster
> discussion within the developer community and encourage input on
> the future direction of the language.
>
> The inability to fork Java is the only major difference between the
> software licence that Sun uses for Java and the GPL-like licence
> that the Apache Foundation will use, according to Gosling.
>
> "[Apache] says a lot of words about why they want to do it. Exactly
> why is it critical to have a delta between our source licence and
> the source licence that they think is appropriate?" he said.
>
> "I understand why they would like it to be different. From our
> point of view that would actually be more destructive than helpful.
> It boils down to forking: they believe that the ability to fork is
> an absolutely critical right."
>
> Gosling claimed that Java developers of enterprise software support
> Sun in its refusal to open the source code of Java. But they are
> eclipsed by more vocal open source advocates.
>
> "If we could get the enterprise software architects to be as vocal
> as the Slashdot crowd, it would be a really interesting
> discussion," he said.
>
> Sun will not contribute to the project, Gosling said, revoking a
> comment that another Sun vice president made on his blog earlier.
>
> "We hardly have the energy to work on our [J2SE implementation].
> We'll be glad to get co-operative and helpful, but there is only so
> much energy that is free and donatable," Gosling told *vnunet.com*
> <http://www.vnunet.com>.
>
> In response to Gosling's remarks, Geir Magnusson, an independent
> software developer with the Foundation, told /vnunet.com/ that
> Apache does not aim to fork Java.
>
> An open source J2SE implementation could allow the software to
> spread to new devices, according to Magnusson, who pointed out that
> Sun's J2SE only supports Solaris, Linux and Windows.
>
> "This is about producing a J2SE implementation that can be taken
> and ported and used in more places," he said.
>
> "If I am building a device that uses Java and I could get a
> complete J2SE implementation from Apache, then we would have a new
> place for Java.
>
> "It would be nice if every Linux distribution came with Java. Java
> should be like a dial-tone."
>
> Magnusson added that current J2SE providers, such as IBM, BEA and
> Sun, all have to build and test their own software. An open source
> implementation would allow them to share that work.
>
> He is not surprised by Sun's lack of enthusiasm about his latest
> project, however. Magnusson has spoken with the company about
> Harmony and has invited it to participate. "Sun is a little
> sceptical that we are able to do it," he said.
>
> Sun has provided Magnusson with a slot at the upcoming Java One
> conference from 27-30 June in San Francisco.
>
> The development of the open source J2SE software is expected to
> take several years.
>
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org