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Posted to general@gump.apache.org by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org> on 2004/10/02 19:25:52 UTC
[rant] I hate this gump
This is a rant. I rant when I'm pissed, but I rant when I care.
Cocoon received some 25 nags in a row, twice, in two days and it's
likely to continue since I have no idea on how to fix the thing.
I spent a few hours browsing around the gump html pages. I'm sorry, they
are not only uselessly full of information that nobody really cares
about, but they are also misleading *very misleading*.
Example:
http://brutus.apache.org/gump/public/cocoon-2.1/index.html
look at what it says:
"SUCCESS"
success at what? at finding problems? then it says "overall project
success 18%". WTF? what is the measure of success for gump, anything
higher than zero?
So, we clearly have a problem and I try to fix it. I take the 'cocoon'
module because is the root of the dependencies (obviously *I* know that,
stupid gump doesn't tell me that, even if it knows)
http://brutus.apache.org/gump/public/cocoon-2.1/cocoon/index.html
no such project "avalon-framework". What? It has been there *FOREVER*...
oh, yeah, it's the "we love our users" anthem we hear from avalon every
day [we are fixing that one in another area, but it should be fixed soon]
So, I go looking for the new name of the avalon framework... hmmm...
where do I go? I look up: run? no workspace? yeah, that shoudl have
it... no, it's useless crap, back, where is the list of the goddamn
projects... hmmm, maybe log? all right
Oh *fuck* "gump is currently building, blah blah blah"
Boy, this gump sucks.
Gump needs to be a two tier system: one system drives the build and
generates data, pumps it into a database and another tier (possibly a
webapp) drives the presentation layer accessing that data.
This insanity has to stop.
Yes, I'm going to do something about it myself and you can bet your ass
that the webapp will *NOT* be written in python.
--
Stefano.
Re: [rant] I hate this gump
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Sunday 03 October 2004 07:34, Scott Sanders wrote:
> > it's going to be the simplest thing (for me!) that can possibly work.
> > which is probably going to be cocoon ;-)
>
> That's a HUGE hammer, I hope you're pounding some big nails :)
http://www.ibiblio.org/Dave/Dr-Fun/df200210/df20021030.jpg
--
+------//-------------------+
/ http://www.bali.ac /
/ http://niclas.hedhman.org /
+------//-------------------+
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Re: [rant] I hate this gump
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Scott Sanders wrote:
>
> On Oct 2, 2004, at 4:08 PM, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>>>> and you can bet your ass that the webapp will *NOT* be written in
>>>> python.
>>>
>>> ooh, ooh, is it ruby? :-P
>>
>>
>> it's going to be the simplest thing (for me!) that can possibly work.
>> which is probably going to be cocoon ;-)
>>
> That's a HUGE hammer, I hope you're pounding some big nails :)
it will just be a prototype. if you guys like it, we can use it, if not,
throw it away, I won't be emotionally attached to it. promise ;-)
--
Stefano.
Re: [rant] I hate this gump
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Scott Sanders wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> >>> and you can bet your ass that the webapp will *NOT* be written in
> >>> python.
> >>
> >> ooh, ooh, is it ruby? :-P
> >
> > it's going to be the simplest thing (for me!) that can possibly work.
> > which is probably going to be cocoon ;-)
> >
> That's a HUGE hammer, I hope you're pounding some big nails :)
>
> Scott
What happened to the middle of this thread?
Did it go off-list for a while?
--
David Crossley
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Re: [rant] I hate this gump
Posted by Scott Sanders <sc...@dotnot.org>.
On Oct 2, 2004, at 4:08 PM, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>>> and you can bet your ass that the webapp will *NOT* be written in
>>> python.
>> ooh, ooh, is it ruby? :-P
>
> it's going to be the simplest thing (for me!) that can possibly work.
> which is probably going to be cocoon ;-)
>
That's a HUGE hammer, I hope you're pounding some big nails :)
Scott
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Re: [rant] I hate this gump
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Leo Simons wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> Boy, this gump sucks.
>
> you're exaggerating. Be nice now.
sorry :-(
apologies, you guys, but I am kinda frustrated by all this.
>
>> Yes, I'm going to do something about it myself
>
> about time! <ducks/>
I know. :-(
but dudes, be ready for something pretty wild ;-)
>> and you can bet your ass that the webapp will *NOT* be written in python.
>
> ooh, ooh, is it ruby? :-P
it's going to be the simplest thing (for me!) that can possibly work.
which is probably going to be cocoon ;-)
--
Stefano.
Re: [rant] I hate this gump
Posted by Leo Simons <ls...@jicarilla.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Boy, this gump sucks.
you're exaggerating. Be nice now.
> Yes, I'm going to do something about it myself
about time! <ducks/>
> and you can bet your ass
> that the webapp will *NOT* be written in python.
ooh, ooh, is it ruby? :-P
- LSD
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Re: [rant] I hate this gump
Posted by "Adam R. B. Jack" <aj...@apache.org>.
> Example:
>
> http://brutus.apache.org/gump/public/cocoon-2.1/index.html
>
> look at what it says:
>
> "SUCCESS"
> success at what? at finding problems? then it says "overall project
> success 18%". WTF? what is the measure of success for gump, anything
> higher than zero?
True, likely misleading. This is a module and it checked out so it is
"success" at the module level.
> So, we clearly have a problem and I try to fix it. I take the 'cocoon'
> module because is the root of the dependencies (obviously *I* know that,
> stupid gump doesn't tell me that, even if it knows)
>
> http://brutus.apache.org/gump/public/cocoon-2.1/cocoon/index.html
>
> no such project "avalon-framework". What? It has been there *FOREVER*...
> oh, yeah, it's the "we love our users" anthem we hear from avalon every
> day [we are fixing that one in another area, but it should be fixed soon]
I think It got renamed w/o some alias. Yeah, kinda tough on dependees.
> So, I go looking for the new name of the avalon framework... hmmm...
> where do I go? I look up: run? no workspace? yeah, that shoudl have
> it... no, it's useless crap, back, where is the list of the goddamn
> projects... hmmm, maybe log? all right
>
> Oh *fuck* "gump is currently building, blah blah blah"
Yup, that has been pissing me off big time recently. But, I've come to agree
... I'd hate to write yet another static page, they have to go.
> Boy, this gump sucks.
>
> Gump needs to be a two tier system: one system drives the build and
> generates data, pumps it into a database and another tier (possibly a
> webapp) drives the presentation layer accessing that data.
You and I stated this on an IM once. I agree completely. I also can't stand
the static pages, and I wrote them. The static pages were there because of
Forrest, partly historically, and that just slipped into XHTML, and stayed
there. As you've stated, they try to tell you everything, and there is
simply no intelligence. To attempt to be complete they overload the user
with data [that is, at times, misleading], and as such the obscure the
important facts.
I'd love to see you go for this.
Gump writes to MySQL, the data is there (albeit in somewhat ugly/simplistic
a schema) so feel free to dig into it. Let me know if you need anything
else. [BTW: Did Leo give you the PHP MySQL admin pages/login?]
I half wonder if we could also write some information into an RDF tuple
database for a webapp to query/display, but that can be a phase two (if
needed).
> Yes, I'm going to do something about it myself and you can bet your ass
> that the webapp will *NOT* be written in python.
No complaints from me. Python is a fine language, but I think:
(1) the Gump code uses (for want of a better word) "fragmented" classes
which are hard to form a mental picture from. I was trying to employ
multiple inheritance and re-use, but think I unintentionally obscured.
(2) I don't think Python is giving us the benefit it could, not necessarily
'cos of the language, more 'cos of the IDEs. I think Gump is large enough
that folks can't "navigate" around it, so get lost, when really the core
(wherever that is) is tiny and simple.
I do hope to keep finding ways to simplify Gump's code so that Python is not
a barrier to entry, but I'm more than happy to help work with alternatives.
regards,
Adam
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RE: [rant] I hate this gump
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:stefano@apache.org]
> Sent: 02 October 2004 19:26
> To: Apache Gump
> Subject: [rant] I hate this gump
>
> This is a rant. I rant when I'm pissed, but I rant when I care.
>
> Cocoon received some 25 nags in a row, twice, in two days and it's
> likely to continue since I have no idea on how to fix the thing.
>
> I spent a few hours browsing around the gump html pages. I'm sorry,
they
> are not only uselessly full of information that nobody really cares
> about, but they are also misleading *very misleading*.
>
> Example:
>
> http://brutus.apache.org/gump/public/cocoon-2.1/index.html
>
> look at what it says:
>
> "SUCCESS"
>
> success at what? at finding problems? then it says "overall project
> success 18%". WTF? what is the measure of success for gump, anything
> higher than zero?
>
> So, we clearly have a problem and I try to fix it. I take the 'cocoon'
> module because is the root of the dependencies (obviously *I* know
that,
> stupid gump doesn't tell me that, even if it knows)
>
> http://brutus.apache.org/gump/public/cocoon-2.1/cocoon/index.html
>
> no such project "avalon-framework". What? It has been there
*FOREVER*...
> oh, yeah, it's the "we love our users" anthem we hear from avalon
every
> day [we are fixing that one in another area, but it should be fixed
soon]
There is this message on cocoon-dev:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=109320288814185&w=4
And this reply:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=109322232009166&w=4
Stephen.
> --
> Stefano.
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