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Posted to dev@stdcxx.apache.org by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com> on 2013/05/29 13:29:05 UTC
Search for new chair
I am stepping down as Chair of the C++ StdLib PMC.
So the question is: Does this project and community
elect a new Chair, or does it enter the Attic?
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by "William A. Rowe Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
On Wed, 29 May 2013 15:55:45 -0600
Martin Sebor <ms...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> FYI: A chair doesn't necessarily need to have a plan to do anything
> other than fulfill the duties assigned to them by the ASF:
>
> http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#chair
>
> It's mostly a bureaucratic role, and can be a big time sink (reading
> all the mailing lists, like board and members can be especially time
> consuming). Other than that, being a chair doesn't give one the power
> or ability to assure the success of a project than the rest of us.
All good points. Although I'd caution against using members@ as any
yardstick for chairing a project, the comdev (community development)
and the general@incubator lists can be much better lists to follow
to observe the pain points in other projects and solutions to help
improve the way than an ASF project could function as a community.
But those don't have to be all on the chair, anyone from the project
can follow those lists, and you might find like-minded C++ developers
on a list like general@incubator, or good ideas for recruiting docs
authors and building a larger community from comdev. As a 'community'
project it is going to take the efforts of more than simply one chair
to really reenergize stdcxx to accomplish some of the many things that
are being kicked around on the list this week. Glad to see the project
has a good candidate for chair, and to see good discussion on moving it
forwards :)
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by "William A. Rowe Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
On Thu, 30 May 2013 08:27:38 -0600
Martin Sebor <ms...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 05/30/2013 06:04 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> >
> > On May 29, 2013, at 5:55 PM, Martin Sebor <ms...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> But to be chair, one needs to be a member of the foundation.
> >
> > That's not true.
> >
>
> It would certainly simplify the situation if it wasn't.
>
> I've always understood that one would have to be based on statements
> like the one below (copied from Project Management Committees (PMC)):
>
> Each PMC consists of at least one officer of the ASF, who shall
> be designated chairperson, and may include one or more *other*
> members of the ASF.
The statement is correct, although non-ASF members may also be
members of the project's PMC, and I think the statement was not
cast very clearly.
In appointing a chair, the Board simultaneously names them to be
a Vice President of the Foundation, ensuring they are an officer
of the ASF (and not simply a committee chair).
> That suggests that chairperson is the one required member of the
> foundation on a PMC.
>
> The chair of the PMC is appointed by the Board and is an officer
> of the ASF (Vice President).
>
> Does an officer of the ASF not have to be a member?
Correct. Hope my comments above made this clearer.
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by Martin Sebor <ms...@gmail.com>.
By my count, four people are in favor and no one objects
so I think the consensus is clear. By my reading of How
the ASF works, the Board nominates the new chair. Since
the current chair is resigning and we have a volunteer
for the post, it's up to Jim to communicate this to the
Board at the next meeting, and up to the Board to decide
whether to nominate Chris. I don't know what other option
there is.
Jim, it would be nice if you could confirm or clarify
the procedure for the rest of us.
Martin
On 6/7/13 7:22 AM, "C. Bergström" wrote:
> On 06/ 7/13 08:07 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>> The PMC report is due at this month's meeting...
>>
>> so what's the word? Should we propose a new chair??
> I've volunteered and multiple people have +1, but I don't know the
> official procedure for this.
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
I'll add a resolution for next week's board mtg.
On Jun 7, 2013, at 9:22 AM, C. Bergström <cb...@pathscale.com> wrote:
> On 06/ 7/13 08:07 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>> The PMC report is due at this month's meeting...
>>
>> so what's the word? Should we propose a new chair??
> I've volunteered and multiple people have +1, but I don't know the official procedure for this.
>
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by "C. Bergström" <cb...@pathscale.com>.
On 06/ 7/13 08:07 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> The PMC report is due at this month's meeting...
>
> so what's the word? Should we propose a new chair??
I've volunteered and multiple people have +1, but I don't know the
official procedure for this.
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
The PMC report is due at this month's meeting...
so what's the word? Should we propose a new chair??
On May 31, 2013, at 7:27 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com> wrote:
>
> On May 30, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Martin Sebor <ms...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> The chair of the PMC is appointed by the Board and is an officer
>> of the ASF (Vice President).
>>
>> Does an officer of the ASF not have to be a member?
>>
>
> Not, s/he does not. There are a handful of such cases where the
> PMC Chair is not a member. Yet.
>
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On May 30, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Martin Sebor <ms...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The chair of the PMC is appointed by the Board and is an officer
> of the ASF (Vice President).
>
> Does an officer of the ASF not have to be a member?
>
Not, s/he does not. There are a handful of such cases where the
PMC Chair is not a member. Yet.
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by Martin Sebor <ms...@gmail.com>.
On 05/30/2013 06:04 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
> On May 29, 2013, at 5:55 PM, Martin Sebor <ms...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> But to be chair, one needs to be a member of the foundation.
>
> That's not true.
>
It would certainly simplify the situation if it wasn't.
I've always understood that one would have to be based on statements
like the one below (copied from Project Management Committees (PMC)):
Each PMC consists of at least one officer of the ASF, who shall
be designated chairperson, and may include one or more *other*
members of the ASF.
That suggests that chairperson is the one required member of the
foundation on a PMC.
The chair of the PMC is appointed by the Board and is an officer
of the ASF (Vice President).
Does an officer of the ASF not have to be a member?
Martin
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On May 29, 2013, at 5:55 PM, Martin Sebor <ms...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> But to be chair, one needs to be a member of the foundation.
That's not true.
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by Stefan Teleman <st...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Martin Sebor <ms...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 05/29/2013 07:27 AM, Stefan Teleman wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 7:33 AM, "C. Bergström"
>> <cb...@pathscale.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 05/29/13 06:29 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am stepping down as Chair of the C++ StdLib PMC.
>>>>
>>>> So the question is: Does this project and community
>>>> elect a new Chair, or does it enter the Attic?
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd be willing to chair if others are supportive
>>
>>
>> OK, so before I give you a +1, could you please outline what is your
>> Plan(TM) regarding resurrecting this project?
>>
>> How are you going to do it, and, more specifically, what are you going to
>> do?
>
>
> FYI: A chair doesn't necessarily need to have a plan to do anything
> other than fulfill the duties assigned to them by the ASF:
>
> http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#chair
>
> It's mostly a bureaucratic role, and can be a big time sink (reading
> all the mailing lists, like board and members can be especially time
> consuming). Other than that, being a chair doesn't give one the power
> or ability to assure the success of a project than the rest of us.
>
> But to be chair, one needs to be a member of the foundation. It's
> usually a non-trivial process for one to become a member. Some of
> the prerequisites include long time contribution to at least one
> project, the sponsorship and nomination by another member, and
> a vote to accept the new member of the rest of the membership.
> I think the vote happens just a few times a year, and the last
> one was just last week.
>
> Maybe there's a way around this bureaucracy if the alternative
> is shutting the project down.
My question was purely pragmatic. If we are to try reviving the
project (again) and elect another chair (again) I'd like to know that
it won't be yet another dead-end exercise.
I also think Leandro asked a very pertinent set of questions in his
earlier post.
--Stefan
--
Stefan Teleman
KDE e.V.
stefan.teleman@gmail.com
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by Martin Sebor <ms...@gmail.com>.
On 05/29/2013 07:27 AM, Stefan Teleman wrote:
> On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 7:33 AM, "C. Bergström"
> <cb...@pathscale.com> wrote:
>> On 05/29/13 06:29 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>>
>>> I am stepping down as Chair of the C++ StdLib PMC.
>>>
>>> So the question is: Does this project and community
>>> elect a new Chair, or does it enter the Attic?
>>
>> I'd be willing to chair if others are supportive
>
> OK, so before I give you a +1, could you please outline what is your
> Plan(TM) regarding resurrecting this project?
>
> How are you going to do it, and, more specifically, what are you going to do?
FYI: A chair doesn't necessarily need to have a plan to do anything
other than fulfill the duties assigned to them by the ASF:
http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#chair
It's mostly a bureaucratic role, and can be a big time sink (reading
all the mailing lists, like board and members can be especially time
consuming). Other than that, being a chair doesn't give one the power
or ability to assure the success of a project than the rest of us.
But to be chair, one needs to be a member of the foundation. It's
usually a non-trivial process for one to become a member. Some of
the prerequisites include long time contribution to at least one
project, the sponsorship and nomination by another member, and
a vote to accept the new member of the rest of the membership.
I think the vote happens just a few times a year, and the last
one was just last week.
Maybe there's a way around this bureaucracy if the alternative
is shutting the project down.
Martin
>
> --Stefan
>
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by Stefan Teleman <st...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 9:41 AM, "C. Bergström"
<cb...@pathscale.com> wrote:
> On 05/29/13 08:27 PM, Stefan Teleman wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 7:33 AM, "C. Bergström"
>> <cb...@pathscale.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 05/29/13 06:29 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am stepping down as Chair of the C++ StdLib PMC.
>>>>
>>>> So the question is: Does this project and community
>>>> elect a new Chair, or does it enter the Attic?
>>>
>>> I'd be willing to chair if others are supportive
>>
>> OK, so before I give you a +1, could you please outline what is your
>> Plan(TM) regarding resurrecting this project?
>>
>> How are you going to do it, and, more specifically, what are you going to
>> do?
>
> Off the cuff reply and I'll give this more thought and planning if others
> are supportive
>
> 1) I think the most important thing is grow the community
> a. Let people know how important and STL is
> b. Advocate for wider adoption/testing (See if we can get prebuilt
> packages and clear instructions for how people can use/test STDCXX)
>
>
> 2) Evaluate and get feedback from you and others about how we can improve
> the project (Communication, code review, growth opportunities.. etc)
>
> 3) From my $JOB I can advocate to help with code review, QA and ensuring
> good contributions like what you've done before actually get committed
> --------------
> One thing I don't yet have a clear idea how to accomplish is C++11 support.
> A C++03 STL is far from dead, but we need a 2-4 year plan to catch-up with
> others.
>
> My guiding principle is :
> Use, love and contribute back
>
> We need to increase our userbase 1st to start this cycle
>
OK so +1 from me but I also think we need to know who else is willing
to devote time to the project and make meaningful contributions to it.
Emphasis on *meaningful*.
--
Stefan Teleman
KDE e.V.
stefan.teleman@gmail.com
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by "C. Bergström" <cb...@pathscale.com>.
On 05/30/13 03:48 AM, Leandro T. C. Melo wrote:
> Hi,
>
> although I follow this list for a few years, it's actually my first post. I
> agree community would be on top, so let's say one would like to contribute
> to the project... What would be the greatest motivating factor?
I'd say our target is c++ enthusiasts/professionals, system maintainers
and compiler engineers
Licensing, portability, quality of codebase, standards conformance and
hopefully performance (though I don't have benchmarks to substantiate
this claim right now)
> I mean:
> This project has been relatively quiet; There's now libc++, which can
> probably better attract developers (specially given its connection with
> clang)
Based on the commit logs - how much non-Apple/general clang
contributions does libc++ get? STL hacking isn't the sexiest project to
contribute to generally..
> - as fair as I know Window/Linux are not complete yet; I guess
> STLport is also missing C++11, but I'd assume it's more widely spread than
> the STDCXX and with more derivations, then more potential as well.
STLport's last release was 2008 and I'm not sure how much potential
could be derived from that....
>
> > From a more practical side, regarding popularity and consequently an active
> community: How much people (and who) are using STDCXX (I couldn't find this
> on the page, sorry if it's there somewhere) and in which areas can the
> STDCXX be awesome and differentiate from the others. Portability, i18n...
I know of a few companies/projects using stdcxx, but it's probably
better to leave this as a TODO.
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by "Leandro T. C. Melo" <lt...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 3:41 PM, "C. Bergström" <cb...@pathscale.com>wrote:
> On 05/29/13 08:27 PM, Stefan Teleman wrote:
>
>> On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 7:33 AM, "C. Bergström"
>> <cb...@pathscale.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/29/13 06:29 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am stepping down as Chair of the C++ StdLib PMC.
>>>>
>>>> So the question is: Does this project and community
>>>> elect a new Chair, or does it enter the Attic?
>>>>
>>> I'd be willing to chair if others are supportive
>>>
>> OK, so before I give you a +1, could you please outline what is your
>> Plan(TM) regarding resurrecting this project?
>>
>> How are you going to do it, and, more specifically, what are you going to
>> do?
>>
> Off the cuff reply and I'll give this more thought and planning if others
> are supportive
>
> 1) I think the most important thing is grow the community
> a. Let people know how important and STL is
> b. Advocate for wider adoption/testing (See if we can get prebuilt
> packages and clear instructions for how people can use/test STDCXX)
>
>
> 2) Evaluate and get feedback from you and others about how we can improve
> the project (Communication, code review, growth opportunities.. etc)
>
> 3) From my $JOB I can advocate to help with code review, QA and ensuring
> good contributions like what you've done before actually get committed
> --------------
> One thing I don't yet have a clear idea how to accomplish is C++11
> support. A C++03 STL is far from dead, but we need a 2-4 year plan to
> catch-up with others.
>
> My guiding principle is :
> Use, love and contribute back
>
> We need to increase our userbase 1st to start this cycle
>
>
Hi,
although I follow this list for a few years, it's actually my first post. I
agree community would be on top, so let's say one would like to contribute
to the project... What would be the greatest motivating factor? I mean:
This project has been relatively quiet; There's now libc++, which can
probably better attract developers (specially given its connection with
clang) - as fair as I know Window/Linux are not complete yet; I guess
STLport is also missing C++11, but I'd assume it's more widely spread than
the STDCXX and with more derivations, then more potential as well.
>From a more practical side, regarding popularity and consequently an active
community: How much people (and who) are using STDCXX (I couldn't find this
on the page, sorry if it's there somewhere) and in which areas can the
STDCXX be awesome and differentiate from the others. Portability, i18n...
--
Leandro
http://www.ltcmelo.com
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by "C. Bergström" <cb...@pathscale.com>.
On 05/29/13 08:27 PM, Stefan Teleman wrote:
> On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 7:33 AM, "C. Bergström"
> <cb...@pathscale.com> wrote:
>> On 05/29/13 06:29 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>> I am stepping down as Chair of the C++ StdLib PMC.
>>>
>>> So the question is: Does this project and community
>>> elect a new Chair, or does it enter the Attic?
>> I'd be willing to chair if others are supportive
> OK, so before I give you a +1, could you please outline what is your
> Plan(TM) regarding resurrecting this project?
>
> How are you going to do it, and, more specifically, what are you going to do?
Off the cuff reply and I'll give this more thought and planning if
others are supportive
1) I think the most important thing is grow the community
a. Let people know how important and STL is
b. Advocate for wider adoption/testing (See if we can get prebuilt
packages and clear instructions for how people can use/test STDCXX)
2) Evaluate and get feedback from you and others about how we can
improve the project (Communication, code review, growth opportunities.. etc)
3) From my $JOB I can advocate to help with code review, QA and ensuring
good contributions like what you've done before actually get committed
--------------
One thing I don't yet have a clear idea how to accomplish is C++11
support. A C++03 STL is far from dead, but we need a 2-4 year plan to
catch-up with others.
My guiding principle is :
Use, love and contribute back
We need to increase our userbase 1st to start this cycle
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by Stefan Teleman <st...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 7:33 AM, "C. Bergström"
<cb...@pathscale.com> wrote:
> On 05/29/13 06:29 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>
>> I am stepping down as Chair of the C++ StdLib PMC.
>>
>> So the question is: Does this project and community
>> elect a new Chair, or does it enter the Attic?
>
> I'd be willing to chair if others are supportive
OK, so before I give you a +1, could you please outline what is your
Plan(TM) regarding resurrecting this project?
How are you going to do it, and, more specifically, what are you going to do?
--Stefan
--
Stefan Teleman
KDE e.V.
stefan.teleman@gmail.com
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by "Pavel Heimlich, a.k.a. hajma" <tr...@gmail.com>.
Dne 29.5.2013 13:36 C. Bergström <cb...@pathscale.com> napsal(a):
>
> On 05/29/13 06:29 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>
>> I am stepping down as Chair of the C++ StdLib PMC.
>>
>> So the question is: Does this project and community
>> elect a new Chair, or does it enter the Attic?
>
> I'd be willing to chair if others are supportive
+1
I'd prefer to reflect the reality and move the project to attic. But if you
want to play ... :-)
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>.
On 05/29/2013 01:33 PM, "C. Bergström" wrote:
> On 05/29/13 06:29 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>> I am stepping down as Chair of the C++ StdLib PMC.
>>
>> So the question is: Does this project and community
>> elect a new Chair, or does it enter the Attic?
> I'd be willing to chair if others are supportive
You have my +1 :)
Regards
--
^TM
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by Martin Sebor <ms...@gmail.com>.
On 05/29/2013 05:33 AM, "C. Bergström" wrote:
> On 05/29/13 06:29 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>> I am stepping down as Chair of the C++ StdLib PMC.
>>
>> So the question is: Does this project and community
>> elect a new Chair, or does it enter the Attic?
> I'd be willing to chair if others are supportive
I'm in favor. Thanks for volunteering!
Martin
Re: Search for new chair
Posted by "C. Bergström" <cb...@pathscale.com>.
On 05/29/13 06:29 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> I am stepping down as Chair of the C++ StdLib PMC.
>
> So the question is: Does this project and community
> elect a new Chair, or does it enter the Attic?
I'd be willing to chair if others are supportive