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Posted to dev@couchdb.apache.org by Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com> on 2012/10/31 08:24:17 UTC
website - should we target the devs a little more
Hi all,
Early in the morning I installed a new machine without anything around and
I couldn't remember the right link to the repository... So obviously I went
on our website to look at the link; But couldn't find it either. I couldn't
find it until I end to the Quick Links section. Which was after all logical
but ot so much intuitive (a dev is also a contributor ...).
Anyway I'm worried that this 1 page site isn't the appropriate way to
present the project.
1. This big font (at least on chrome) doesn't help to read at all. And
links can't be easily read due to the thickness of it too
2. We should have a real dev sections to target devs, presenting couchdb
internals & such like here :
http://ipython.org/ipython-doc/stable/development/index.html or
http://www.chromium.org/developers/ an not a simple wiki page . It's
important for other to present couchdb internals so other developer know
where to hack. And it's important to attract more devs to couchdb I think.
3. For other and I think the new doc site will help we should have
something like http://developer.android.com/index.html
On a side note I don't find the slogan "Apache CouchDB is a database that
uses JSON for documents, Javascript for MapReduce queries and regular HTTP
for an API" is quite good. If I came here for the first time I would say
"and?" . Replications, Views, Rendering (couchapps) and Reliable &
Elastiic (when bigcouch will come) are imo some selling points that speak
more to the end user.
Anyway here is my post-reaction after losing more than 5 mn to find a link
on the website. I hope it can help to make our site better.
- benoit
Re: website - should we target the devs a little more
Posted by Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 8:24 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> On a side note I don't find the slogan "Apache CouchDB is a database that
> uses JSON for documents, Javascript for MapReduce queries and regular HTTP
> for an API" is quite good.
>
isn't quite good.
Re: website - should we target the devs a little more
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
We could definitely sell ourselves better. And of course, our customers are
highly technical. But until something better comes along, this has been
designed as a single page site. So we need to stay laser focused. And so,
to answer Benoits question, no, we shouldn't be trying to please everybody,
or speak to everybody all at once. As Vonnegut once said, if you try to
open your window and make love to the world, all you will get is pneumonia.
On 3 November 2012 18:56, Octavian Damiean <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree with Benoit that we could improve on our information structure a
> bit. Google's Android developer portal is a very good example.
>
> Also, the wording definitely needs some work. I mean end-users are in
> fact developer that want to use CouchDB so we should mention some of those
> key features.
>
> On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > The homepage (or marketing site as I call it) is targeted at new users.
> > That's why the link to the source code is tucked away at the bottom.
> >
> > Benoit, you trying to find the Git URL was not one of our user stories,
> and
> > nor should it be. You're perfectly able to figure that one out for
> > yourself. ;)
> >
> > I definitely think we need to keep the website up to date, and iterate on
> > it. And I would like to see some concrete proposals that we can talk
> about.
> >
> > On 3 November 2012 01:22, Randall Leeds <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:24 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bchesneau@gmail.com
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Early in the morning I installed a new machine without anything
> around
> > > and
> > > > I couldn't remember the right link to the repository... So obviously
> I
> > > went
> > > > on our website to look at the link; But couldn't find it either. I
> > > couldn't
> > > > find it until I end to the Quick Links section. Which was after all
> > > logical
> > > > but ot so much intuitive (a dev is also a contributor ...).
> > > >
> > > > Anyway I'm worried that this 1 page site isn't the appropriate way to
> > > > present the project.
> > > >
> > > > 1. This big font (at least on chrome) doesn't help to read at all.
> And
> > > > links can't be easily read due to the thickness of it too
> > > >
> > >
> > > This one is going to be subjective. I do think we should change the
> > default
> > > link text color so it's not the same as the rest of the text. That
> would
> > > make it stand out more clearly. Especially because many useful links
> are
> > in
> > > the body text and not in the menus.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > 2. We should have a real dev sections to target devs, presenting
> > couchdb
> > > > internals & such like here :
> > > > http://ipython.org/ipython-doc/stable/development/index.html or
> > > > http://www.chromium.org/developers/ an not a simple wiki page .
> It's
> > > > important for other to present couchdb internals so other developer
> > know
> > > > where to hack. And it's important to attract more devs to couchdb I
> > > think.
> > > >
> > >
> > > IMO it's not a problem to have this on a wiki. Our wiki front page
> reads
> > > somewhat like chromium.org. I re-arranged it to try to be more
> narrative
> > > last time I sprinted on the docs for a day. I would like to do it again
> > and
> > > I'll keep this in mind. Of course.... nobody wait for me :)
> > >
> > > Maybe it would be good to get the Wiki out of Quick LInks and into the
> > top
> > > toolbar?
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > 3. For other and I think the new doc site will help we should have
> > > > something like http://developer.android.com/index.html
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yeah, a lot will maybe change when the docs land. For now, I'm
> concerned
> > > about your original problem: not finding the source quickly. I think we
> > > should at least add the source repo under the Downloads section. Maybe
> > add
> > > a line which reads "Source (repository)".
> > >
> > > Although, now I think about it more. It really is important that people
> > can
> > > get to the source really fast. Maybe we should just have a "fork" link
> at
> > > the top? A section for it? Something to get here really, really fast:
> > > https://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/SourceCode
> > >
> > >
> > > > On a side note I don't find the slogan "Apache CouchDB is a database
> > that
> > > > uses JSON for documents, Javascript for MapReduce queries and regular
> > > HTTP
> > > > for an API" isn't quite good. If I came here for the first time I
> would
> > > say
> > > > "and?" . Replications, Views, Rendering (couchapps) and Reliable &
> > > > Elastiic (when bigcouch will come) are imo some selling points that
> > speak
> > > > more to the end user.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Agreed. Let's propose some rewrites. Some text from
> > > https://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/FrontPage applies. It needs to
> > communicate
> > > the awesome without getting stuck in the details. Different things are
> > > awesome to different people, though. Example: Erlang was one reason I
> got
> > > involved. Someone else might not care what language it's written in at
> > all.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > NS
> >
>
--
NS
Re: website - should we target the devs a little more
Posted by Octavian Damiean <ma...@gmail.com>.
I agree with Benoit that we could improve on our information structure a
bit. Google's Android developer portal is a very good example.
Also, the wording definitely needs some work. I mean end-users are in
fact developer that want to use CouchDB so we should mention some of those
key features.
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> The homepage (or marketing site as I call it) is targeted at new users.
> That's why the link to the source code is tucked away at the bottom.
>
> Benoit, you trying to find the Git URL was not one of our user stories, and
> nor should it be. You're perfectly able to figure that one out for
> yourself. ;)
>
> I definitely think we need to keep the website up to date, and iterate on
> it. And I would like to see some concrete proposals that we can talk about.
>
> On 3 November 2012 01:22, Randall Leeds <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:24 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bchesneau@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Early in the morning I installed a new machine without anything around
> > and
> > > I couldn't remember the right link to the repository... So obviously I
> > went
> > > on our website to look at the link; But couldn't find it either. I
> > couldn't
> > > find it until I end to the Quick Links section. Which was after all
> > logical
> > > but ot so much intuitive (a dev is also a contributor ...).
> > >
> > > Anyway I'm worried that this 1 page site isn't the appropriate way to
> > > present the project.
> > >
> > > 1. This big font (at least on chrome) doesn't help to read at all. And
> > > links can't be easily read due to the thickness of it too
> > >
> >
> > This one is going to be subjective. I do think we should change the
> default
> > link text color so it's not the same as the rest of the text. That would
> > make it stand out more clearly. Especially because many useful links are
> in
> > the body text and not in the menus.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > 2. We should have a real dev sections to target devs, presenting
> couchdb
> > > internals & such like here :
> > > http://ipython.org/ipython-doc/stable/development/index.html or
> > > http://www.chromium.org/developers/ an not a simple wiki page . It's
> > > important for other to present couchdb internals so other developer
> know
> > > where to hack. And it's important to attract more devs to couchdb I
> > think.
> > >
> >
> > IMO it's not a problem to have this on a wiki. Our wiki front page reads
> > somewhat like chromium.org. I re-arranged it to try to be more narrative
> > last time I sprinted on the docs for a day. I would like to do it again
> and
> > I'll keep this in mind. Of course.... nobody wait for me :)
> >
> > Maybe it would be good to get the Wiki out of Quick LInks and into the
> top
> > toolbar?
> >
> >
> > >
> > > 3. For other and I think the new doc site will help we should have
> > > something like http://developer.android.com/index.html
> > >
> >
> > Yeah, a lot will maybe change when the docs land. For now, I'm concerned
> > about your original problem: not finding the source quickly. I think we
> > should at least add the source repo under the Downloads section. Maybe
> add
> > a line which reads "Source (repository)".
> >
> > Although, now I think about it more. It really is important that people
> can
> > get to the source really fast. Maybe we should just have a "fork" link at
> > the top? A section for it? Something to get here really, really fast:
> > https://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/SourceCode
> >
> >
> > > On a side note I don't find the slogan "Apache CouchDB is a database
> that
> > > uses JSON for documents, Javascript for MapReduce queries and regular
> > HTTP
> > > for an API" isn't quite good. If I came here for the first time I would
> > say
> > > "and?" . Replications, Views, Rendering (couchapps) and Reliable &
> > > Elastiic (when bigcouch will come) are imo some selling points that
> speak
> > > more to the end user.
> > >
> >
> > Agreed. Let's propose some rewrites. Some text from
> > https://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/FrontPage applies. It needs to
> communicate
> > the awesome without getting stuck in the details. Different things are
> > awesome to different people, though. Example: Erlang was one reason I got
> > involved. Someone else might not care what language it's written in at
> all.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> NS
>
Re: website - should we target the devs a little more
Posted by Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>.
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> The homepage (or marketing site as I call it) is targeted at new users.
> That's why the link to the source code is tucked away at the bottom.
>
I was speaking as a marketer.... (which was actually part of my master ;)
>
> Benoit, you trying to find the Git URL was not one of our user stories, and
> nor should it be. You're perfectly able to figure that one out for
> yourself. ;)
>
I'm confused. shouldn't the website direct all the users? See the android
site for ex it manage all actors of a project:
http://www.android.com/
Also i think I'm generally good to find the information on the web. Here it
took me 10mn to find the right link.
> I definitely think we need to keep the website up to date, and iterate on
> it. And I would like to see some concrete proposals that we can talk about.
>
On a pure information perspective their layout what you find on the
android website in term of entries and informations is what I would expect.
I could of course do something, but if a graphist could help that would be
the best.
- benoît
>
> On 3 November 2012 01:22, Randall Leeds <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:24 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bchesneau@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Early in the morning I installed a new machine without anything around
> > and
> > > I couldn't remember the right link to the repository... So obviously I
> > went
> > > on our website to look at the link; But couldn't find it either. I
> > couldn't
> > > find it until I end to the Quick Links section. Which was after all
> > logical
> > > but ot so much intuitive (a dev is also a contributor ...).
> > >
> > > Anyway I'm worried that this 1 page site isn't the appropriate way to
> > > present the project.
> > >
> > > 1. This big font (at least on chrome) doesn't help to read at all. And
> > > links can't be easily read due to the thickness of it too
> > >
> >
> > This one is going to be subjective. I do think we should change the
> default
> > link text color so it's not the same as the rest of the text. That would
> > make it stand out more clearly. Especially because many useful links are
> in
> > the body text and not in the menus.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > 2. We should have a real dev sections to target devs, presenting
> couchdb
> > > internals & such like here :
> > > http://ipython.org/ipython-doc/stable/development/index.html or
> > > http://www.chromium.org/developers/ an not a simple wiki page . It's
> > > important for other to present couchdb internals so other developer
> know
> > > where to hack. And it's important to attract more devs to couchdb I
> > think.
> > >
> >
> > IMO it's not a problem to have this on a wiki. Our wiki front page reads
> > somewhat like chromium.org. I re-arranged it to try to be more narrative
> > last time I sprinted on the docs for a day. I would like to do it again
> and
> > I'll keep this in mind. Of course.... nobody wait for me :)
> >
> > Maybe it would be good to get the Wiki out of Quick LInks and into the
> top
> > toolbar?
> >
> >
> > >
> > > 3. For other and I think the new doc site will help we should have
> > > something like http://developer.android.com/index.html
> > >
> >
> > Yeah, a lot will maybe change when the docs land. For now, I'm concerned
> > about your original problem: not finding the source quickly. I think we
> > should at least add the source repo under the Downloads section. Maybe
> add
> > a line which reads "Source (repository)".
> >
> > Although, now I think about it more. It really is important that people
> can
> > get to the source really fast. Maybe we should just have a "fork" link at
> > the top? A section for it? Something to get here really, really fast:
> > https://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/SourceCode
> >
> >
> > > On a side note I don't find the slogan "Apache CouchDB is a database
> that
> > > uses JSON for documents, Javascript for MapReduce queries and regular
> > HTTP
> > > for an API" isn't quite good. If I came here for the first time I would
> > say
> > > "and?" . Replications, Views, Rendering (couchapps) and Reliable &
> > > Elastiic (when bigcouch will come) are imo some selling points that
> speak
> > > more to the end user.
> > >
> >
> > Agreed. Let's propose some rewrites. Some text from
> > https://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/FrontPage applies. It needs to
> communicate
> > the awesome without getting stuck in the details. Different things are
> > awesome to different people, though. Example: Erlang was one reason I got
> > involved. Someone else might not care what language it's written in at
> all.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> NS
>
Re: website - should we target the devs a little more
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
The homepage (or marketing site as I call it) is targeted at new users.
That's why the link to the source code is tucked away at the bottom.
Benoit, you trying to find the Git URL was not one of our user stories, and
nor should it be. You're perfectly able to figure that one out for
yourself. ;)
I definitely think we need to keep the website up to date, and iterate on
it. And I would like to see some concrete proposals that we can talk about.
On 3 November 2012 01:22, Randall Leeds <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:24 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bchesneau@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Early in the morning I installed a new machine without anything around
> and
> > I couldn't remember the right link to the repository... So obviously I
> went
> > on our website to look at the link; But couldn't find it either. I
> couldn't
> > find it until I end to the Quick Links section. Which was after all
> logical
> > but ot so much intuitive (a dev is also a contributor ...).
> >
> > Anyway I'm worried that this 1 page site isn't the appropriate way to
> > present the project.
> >
> > 1. This big font (at least on chrome) doesn't help to read at all. And
> > links can't be easily read due to the thickness of it too
> >
>
> This one is going to be subjective. I do think we should change the default
> link text color so it's not the same as the rest of the text. That would
> make it stand out more clearly. Especially because many useful links are in
> the body text and not in the menus.
>
>
> >
> > 2. We should have a real dev sections to target devs, presenting couchdb
> > internals & such like here :
> > http://ipython.org/ipython-doc/stable/development/index.html or
> > http://www.chromium.org/developers/ an not a simple wiki page . It's
> > important for other to present couchdb internals so other developer know
> > where to hack. And it's important to attract more devs to couchdb I
> think.
> >
>
> IMO it's not a problem to have this on a wiki. Our wiki front page reads
> somewhat like chromium.org. I re-arranged it to try to be more narrative
> last time I sprinted on the docs for a day. I would like to do it again and
> I'll keep this in mind. Of course.... nobody wait for me :)
>
> Maybe it would be good to get the Wiki out of Quick LInks and into the top
> toolbar?
>
>
> >
> > 3. For other and I think the new doc site will help we should have
> > something like http://developer.android.com/index.html
> >
>
> Yeah, a lot will maybe change when the docs land. For now, I'm concerned
> about your original problem: not finding the source quickly. I think we
> should at least add the source repo under the Downloads section. Maybe add
> a line which reads "Source (repository)".
>
> Although, now I think about it more. It really is important that people can
> get to the source really fast. Maybe we should just have a "fork" link at
> the top? A section for it? Something to get here really, really fast:
> https://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/SourceCode
>
>
> > On a side note I don't find the slogan "Apache CouchDB is a database that
> > uses JSON for documents, Javascript for MapReduce queries and regular
> HTTP
> > for an API" isn't quite good. If I came here for the first time I would
> say
> > "and?" . Replications, Views, Rendering (couchapps) and Reliable &
> > Elastiic (when bigcouch will come) are imo some selling points that speak
> > more to the end user.
> >
>
> Agreed. Let's propose some rewrites. Some text from
> https://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/FrontPage applies. It needs to communicate
> the awesome without getting stuck in the details. Different things are
> awesome to different people, though. Example: Erlang was one reason I got
> involved. Someone else might not care what language it's written in at all.
>
--
NS
Re: website - should we target the devs a little more
Posted by Randall Leeds <ra...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:24 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Early in the morning I installed a new machine without anything around and
> I couldn't remember the right link to the repository... So obviously I went
> on our website to look at the link; But couldn't find it either. I couldn't
> find it until I end to the Quick Links section. Which was after all logical
> but ot so much intuitive (a dev is also a contributor ...).
>
> Anyway I'm worried that this 1 page site isn't the appropriate way to
> present the project.
>
> 1. This big font (at least on chrome) doesn't help to read at all. And
> links can't be easily read due to the thickness of it too
>
This one is going to be subjective. I do think we should change the default
link text color so it's not the same as the rest of the text. That would
make it stand out more clearly. Especially because many useful links are in
the body text and not in the menus.
>
> 2. We should have a real dev sections to target devs, presenting couchdb
> internals & such like here :
> http://ipython.org/ipython-doc/stable/development/index.html or
> http://www.chromium.org/developers/ an not a simple wiki page . It's
> important for other to present couchdb internals so other developer know
> where to hack. And it's important to attract more devs to couchdb I think.
>
IMO it's not a problem to have this on a wiki. Our wiki front page reads
somewhat like chromium.org. I re-arranged it to try to be more narrative
last time I sprinted on the docs for a day. I would like to do it again and
I'll keep this in mind. Of course.... nobody wait for me :)
Maybe it would be good to get the Wiki out of Quick LInks and into the top
toolbar?
>
> 3. For other and I think the new doc site will help we should have
> something like http://developer.android.com/index.html
>
Yeah, a lot will maybe change when the docs land. For now, I'm concerned
about your original problem: not finding the source quickly. I think we
should at least add the source repo under the Downloads section. Maybe add
a line which reads "Source (repository)".
Although, now I think about it more. It really is important that people can
get to the source really fast. Maybe we should just have a "fork" link at
the top? A section for it? Something to get here really, really fast:
https://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/SourceCode
> On a side note I don't find the slogan "Apache CouchDB is a database that
> uses JSON for documents, Javascript for MapReduce queries and regular HTTP
> for an API" isn't quite good. If I came here for the first time I would say
> "and?" . Replications, Views, Rendering (couchapps) and Reliable &
> Elastiic (when bigcouch will come) are imo some selling points that speak
> more to the end user.
>
Agreed. Let's propose some rewrites. Some text from
https://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/FrontPage applies. It needs to communicate
the awesome without getting stuck in the details. Different things are
awesome to different people, though. Example: Erlang was one reason I got
involved. Someone else might not care what language it's written in at all.