PROPOSAL: send notifications to separate mailing list

[Adam Monsen <ha...@gmail.com>]

Currently mesos-dev is a mix of hand-typed emails and automated emails
(from Review Board, Jenkins, and JIRA).

I propose redirecting all automated ("this happened in tool x") emails
to a separate mailing list, perhaps "mesos-auto" or "mesos-notification".

This would make it easier to follow hand-typed email discussions
directly between humans, while retaining the ability to follow all
automated emails by subscribing to the other mailing list.

Thoughts?

Re: PROPOSAL: send notifications to separate mailing list

[Benjamin Mahler <bm...@twitter.com>]

mesos-dev is the development mailing list, I personally find the
review board notifications
to be a core part of the development discussion. On the email you link
I the important bit
is the update:

"
Changes
-------

Isolation modules also properly cleanup executors now!
"

Reviewboard notifications are a core part of the development, so I
think they belong
in the development mailing list.

Unfortunately, we've seen a history of people using mesos-dev instead
of mesos-users
because that's where all the action happens. I think that's the
fundamental problem and
we'll need to reverse that trend.

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Adam Monsen <ha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 02/28/2013 10:57 AM, Benjamin Hindman wrote:
>> I'm not opposed to the idea, but we do A LOT of communication via JIRA and
>> Review Board, and my fear is that relegating these automatically generated
>> emails to a separate list will cause people to miss the
>> *actual*conversation that's going on. I don't like the idea of having
>> the
>> conversation in too many places, e.g., on the mailing list, and on Review
>> Board, and on JIRA!
>
> Yes, agreed. Fewer sources of truth/activity are better!
>
> Here's some constructive criticism.
>
> I've been trying to follow development conversations in JIRA and Review
> Board, and I'm finding the mailing list useless for this purpose. I end
> up just using the mailing list, JIRA, and Review Board separately anyway.
>
> For example: I can easily see what's going on in a Review Board review
> or a JIRA issue because of the handy UI. Here's a review with lots of
> activity: https://reviews.apache.org/r/9408/ . Looks great there. I can
> pick out the chronology, participants, and see the commented diffs!
> That's a pretty cool tool.
>
> A notification from review 9408 on the mailing list is much less
> helpful. Here's one of the actions out of context:
> http://tinyurl.com/cbpyfwr . That email by itself adds little except an
> audit trail. It crowds out (IMHO) more important emails. I wouldn't
> reply directly to it. I really have to go back to Review Board to do
> anything useful with that notification.
>
> Maybe the problem is just that I'm trying to browse the archives, and
> mod_mbox is not my favorite mailing list archive browser. I'll try email
> filtering before any more whinging.
>
> If you're still feeling thumbs-down after reading the above, I'll
> probably withdraw my proposal. This may just be me getting used to Mesos
> development/communication.
>
> I also found http://tinyurl.com/ch2njku ... Andrew maybe got put off by
> the notification emails too. Again, might just be an issue for new Mesos
> contributors.
>

Re: PROPOSAL: send notifications to separate mailing list

["Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>]

Hi Adam,

Actually your feedback is very important and is a common concern at the
ASF 
on projects that communicate heavily in JIRA and in RB and by external
tools.
We've made a requirement that those tools must email the lists b/c all
interaction/decisions
"happen" on the list, at the same time, using tools sometimes muddies the
waters
as you are seeing.

In the end my recommendation to the Mesos community:

* dev list -- should be emails from time to time consisting of design
discussion, etc. that *is not*
a RB or JIRA email -- discussion and emails should actually happen on this
list. From time to time if
RB and/or JIRA come here that's fine too.
* commits -- automated junk from Git and/or RB and/or JIRA [potentially
with RB and/or JIRA being on a
separate email list like *-issues or something if desired; or not]

Cheers,
Chris


On 2/28/13 12:06 PM, "Adam Monsen" <ha...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 02/28/2013 10:57 AM, Benjamin Hindman wrote:
>> I'm not opposed to the idea, but we do A LOT of communication via JIRA
>>and
>> Review Board, and my fear is that relegating these automatically
>>generated
>> emails to a separate list will cause people to miss the
>> *actual*conversation that's going on. I don't like the idea of having
>> the
>> conversation in too many places, e.g., on the mailing list, and on
>>Review
>> Board, and on JIRA!
>
>Yes, agreed. Fewer sources of truth/activity are better!
>
>Here's some constructive criticism.
>
>I've been trying to follow development conversations in JIRA and Review
>Board, and I'm finding the mailing list useless for this purpose. I end
>up just using the mailing list, JIRA, and Review Board separately anyway.
>
>For example: I can easily see what's going on in a Review Board review
>or a JIRA issue because of the handy UI. Here's a review with lots of
>activity: https://reviews.apache.org/r/9408/ . Looks great there. I can
>pick out the chronology, participants, and see the commented diffs!
>That's a pretty cool tool.
>
>A notification from review 9408 on the mailing list is much less
>helpful. Here's one of the actions out of context:
>http://tinyurl.com/cbpyfwr . That email by itself adds little except an
>audit trail. It crowds out (IMHO) more important emails. I wouldn't
>reply directly to it. I really have to go back to Review Board to do
>anything useful with that notification.
>
>Maybe the problem is just that I'm trying to browse the archives, and
>mod_mbox is not my favorite mailing list archive browser. I'll try email
>filtering before any more whinging.
>
>If you're still feeling thumbs-down after reading the above, I'll
>probably withdraw my proposal. This may just be me getting used to Mesos
>development/communication.
>
>I also found http://tinyurl.com/ch2njku ... Andrew maybe got put off by
>the notification emails too. Again, might just be an issue for new Mesos
>contributors.
>

Re: PROPOSAL: send notifications to separate mailing list

[Adam Monsen <ha...@gmail.com>]

On 02/28/2013 10:57 AM, Benjamin Hindman wrote:
> I'm not opposed to the idea, but we do A LOT of communication via JIRA and
> Review Board, and my fear is that relegating these automatically generated
> emails to a separate list will cause people to miss the
> *actual*conversation that's going on. I don't like the idea of having
> the
> conversation in too many places, e.g., on the mailing list, and on Review
> Board, and on JIRA!

Yes, agreed. Fewer sources of truth/activity are better!

Here's some constructive criticism.

I've been trying to follow development conversations in JIRA and Review
Board, and I'm finding the mailing list useless for this purpose. I end
up just using the mailing list, JIRA, and Review Board separately anyway.

For example: I can easily see what's going on in a Review Board review
or a JIRA issue because of the handy UI. Here's a review with lots of
activity: https://reviews.apache.org/r/9408/ . Looks great there. I can
pick out the chronology, participants, and see the commented diffs!
That's a pretty cool tool.

A notification from review 9408 on the mailing list is much less
helpful. Here's one of the actions out of context:
http://tinyurl.com/cbpyfwr . That email by itself adds little except an
audit trail. It crowds out (IMHO) more important emails. I wouldn't
reply directly to it. I really have to go back to Review Board to do
anything useful with that notification.

Maybe the problem is just that I'm trying to browse the archives, and
mod_mbox is not my favorite mailing list archive browser. I'll try email
filtering before any more whinging.

If you're still feeling thumbs-down after reading the above, I'll
probably withdraw my proposal. This may just be me getting used to Mesos
development/communication.

I also found http://tinyurl.com/ch2njku ... Andrew maybe got put off by
the notification emails too. Again, might just be an issue for new Mesos
contributors.

Re: PROPOSAL: send notifications to separate mailing list

[Benjamin Hindman <be...@eecs.berkeley.edu>]

I'm not opposed to the idea, but we do A LOT of communication via JIRA and
Review Board, and my fear is that relegating these automatically generated
emails to a separate list will cause people to miss the
*actual*conversation that's going on. I don't like the idea of having
the
conversation in too many places, e.g., on the mailing list, and on Review
Board, and on JIRA!

Given that we are keen to take advantage of tools like JIRA and Review
Board my intuition is that any truly active contributor/committer will want
to be reading both of these streams as though they are one stream. This has
at least been my take on why we haven't separated JIRA and Review Board
emails out before.

Of course, it's very easy for me (and others) to subscribe to multiple
lists. But it's also easy for people to filter emails that contain "Review
Request:" or "[jira]". So I think the question comes down to what do we
want to optimize for? Would we prefer to have some documentation someplace
that explains to new developers that they need to sign up for these extra
mailing lists (which they'll possibly miss if they just join mesos-dev@) or
do we want to expose the use of these tools as a first class part of our
development?

On the flip side, it would be great to encourage more communication on
mesos-user@.


On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Vinod Kone <vi...@twitter.com> wrote:

> I like this idea. Though I'm not sure what is the Apache way.
>
>
> @vinodkone
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 10:07 AM, Adam Monsen <ha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Currently mesos-dev is a mix of hand-typed emails and automated emails
> > (from Review Board, Jenkins, and JIRA).
> >
> > I propose redirecting all automated ("this happened in tool x") emails
> > to a separate mailing list, perhaps "mesos-auto" or "mesos-notification".
> >
> > This would make it easier to follow hand-typed email discussions
> > directly between humans, while retaining the ability to follow all
> > automated emails by subscribing to the other mailing list.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> >
>

Re: PROPOSAL: send notifications to separate mailing list

["Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>]

Hi,

I've seen this happen in Apache Lucy and other projects, e.g., Lucene.

It would significantly declutter dev.

I would recommend something like: mesos-issues@incubator.apache.org
I would also be +1 for this. It would help to promote dev being actually
dev discussion rather than JIRA and/or RB auto emails.

At the same time, it may also splinter the conversation.

So I'm +0.5 on this. Up to the peeps doing the work.

Cheers,
Chris


On 2/28/13 10:14 AM, "Vinod Kone" <vi...@twitter.com> wrote:

>I like this idea. Though I'm not sure what is the Apache way.
>
>
>@vinodkone
>
>
>On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 10:07 AM, Adam Monsen <ha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Currently mesos-dev is a mix of hand-typed emails and automated emails
>> (from Review Board, Jenkins, and JIRA).
>>
>> I propose redirecting all automated ("this happened in tool x") emails
>> to a separate mailing list, perhaps "mesos-auto" or
>>"mesos-notification".
>>
>> This would make it easier to follow hand-typed email discussions
>> directly between humans, while retaining the ability to follow all
>> automated emails by subscribing to the other mailing list.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>>

Re: PROPOSAL: send notifications to separate mailing list

[Vinod Kone <vi...@twitter.com>]

I like this idea. Though I'm not sure what is the Apache way.


@vinodkone


On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 10:07 AM, Adam Monsen <ha...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Currently mesos-dev is a mix of hand-typed emails and automated emails
> (from Review Board, Jenkins, and JIRA).
>
> I propose redirecting all automated ("this happened in tool x") emails
> to a separate mailing list, perhaps "mesos-auto" or "mesos-notification".
>
> This would make it easier to follow hand-typed email discussions
> directly between humans, while retaining the ability to follow all
> automated emails by subscribing to the other mailing list.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>