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Posted to dev@myfaces.apache.org by Mario Ivankovits <ma...@ops.co.at> on 2005/12/03 20:34:43 UTC
Faces Freeway
Hi!
Inspired from the "Ruby on Rails" Demo in vienna I would like to develop
a "rapid web-framework", "prototyping framework" or call it anything
else for JSF too.
Please have a look at
http://wiki.apache.org/myfaces/FacesFreeway
I am looking forwar for a vital discussion about it.
I hope I were able to express all my thoughts, if any german speaking
people is able to bring this proposal into a more understandable english
I'll be happy.
The main motivation for this (beside "Ruby on Rails") is that we have
had such a framework in the past (for our home build persistence layer)
and its really a time saver - now we moved to hibernate & JSF and thus
I'll build this again, but now with the hope that others can benefit
from this too.
Jump in!
---
Mario
Re: Faces Freeway
Posted by Jacob Hookom <ja...@hookom.net>.
Kind of like Rails has scaffolding based on actual DB metadata, it would
really great to specify a single component that would default a lot of
the form behavior based on EJB 3 metadata. I realize that you have to
do some jimmying at this point in the partial JEE 5 stack, but once
that's out-- all we need is the UI components that can survive long term
with the stack. You have quite a bit of opportunity to pioneer some
really cool 'drop in' RAD components.
-- Jacob
Mario Ivankovits wrote:
> Hi Jacob!
>
>> If you can standardize on the EJB3 spec, then you can piggy back on
>> JBoss Seam for TX management and state management
>
> I shy to use JBoss Seam in the "reference implementation". If you
> would like to use JBoss Seam outside the JBoss Seam enabled JBoss
> Application Server you have to add dozens of jars to your classpath,
> you know?
>
> And I dont know if I really need all this management now. I dont see
> this "conversational scope" now in Faces Freeway as any transaction
> will be finished in the same view. Save/Edit/Delete will all happen on
> the same page - and then I always can use Session.persist().
>
> I am not an JBoss Seam expert so I dont know if it is easily possible
> to plugin support for it later, but this might change in the future as
> I would like to use JBoss Seam in our application too :-)
>
> ---
> Mario
>
>
Re: Faces Freeway
Posted by Mario Ivankovits <ma...@ops.co.at>.
Hi Jacob!
> If you can standardize on the EJB3 spec, then you can piggy back on
> JBoss Seam for TX management and state management
I shy to use JBoss Seam in the "reference implementation". If you would
like to use JBoss Seam outside the JBoss Seam enabled JBoss Application
Server you have to add dozens of jars to your classpath, you know?
And I dont know if I really need all this management now. I dont see
this "conversational scope" now in Faces Freeway as any transaction will
be finished in the same view. Save/Edit/Delete will all happen on the
same page - and then I always can use Session.persist().
I am not an JBoss Seam expert so I dont know if it is easily possible to
plugin support for it later, but this might change in the future as I
would like to use JBoss Seam in our application too :-)
---
Mario
Re: Faces Freeway
Posted by Jacob Hookom <ja...@hookom.net>.
Mario,
If you can standardize on the EJB3 spec, then you can piggy back on
JBoss Seam for TX management and state management while concentrating on
useful UI components-- I've debated this a bit, but JBoss is taking the
route of code generation at this point for rails-ish support, but I
would like to see dynamic UIComponents such as the ones you are pitching
that can work off of reading EJB3 meta data types.
-- Jacob
Mario Ivankovits wrote:
> Hi Jacob!
>
>> Have you looked at JBoss Seam? As soon as you start dipping into
>> Persistence and JSF, then Seam already has a lot of the coordination
>> completed via Annotations. I do see some really good ideas around
>> components in the UI, something that I've wanted in the JSF spec
>> actually for a while.
>
> I know JBoss Seam, and there is much value in JBoss Seam, but it does
> nothing to present the data to the user, its just a thin layer between
> JSF and Hibernate(EntityManager) to get rid of all those
> DetachedObject/DuplicateObject Exceptions (you know what I mean?).
> This has been done by allow an easy way to use the
> session-per-application-transaction pattern.
>
> So Seam is great stuff, but wont help much here.
>
> ---
> Mario
>
>
--
Jacob Hookom - Minneapolis
--------------------------
http://hookom.blogspot.com
Re: Faces Freeway
Posted by Mario Ivankovits <ma...@ops.co.at>.
Hi Jacob!
> Have you looked at JBoss Seam? As soon as you start dipping into
> Persistence and JSF, then Seam already has a lot of the coordination
> completed via Annotations. I do see some really good ideas around
> components in the UI, something that I've wanted in the JSF spec
> actually for a while.
I know JBoss Seam, and there is much value in JBoss Seam, but it does
nothing to present the data to the user, its just a thin layer between
JSF and Hibernate(EntityManager) to get rid of all those
DetachedObject/DuplicateObject Exceptions (you know what I mean?).
This has been done by allow an easy way to use the
session-per-application-transaction pattern.
So Seam is great stuff, but wont help much here.
---
Mario
Re: Faces Freeway
Posted by Jacob Hookom <ja...@hookom.net>.
Have you looked at JBoss Seam? As soon as you start dipping into
Persistence and JSF, then Seam already has a lot of the coordination
completed via Annotations. I do see some really good ideas around
components in the UI, something that I've wanted in the JSF spec
actually for a while.
-- Jacob
Mario Ivankovits wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Inspired from the "Ruby on Rails" Demo in vienna I would like to
> develop a "rapid web-framework", "prototyping framework" or call it
> anything else for JSF too.
>
> Please have a look at
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/myfaces/FacesFreeway
>
> I am looking forwar for a vital discussion about it.
>
> I hope I were able to express all my thoughts, if any german speaking
> people is able to bring this proposal into a more understandable
> english I'll be happy.
>
>
> The main motivation for this (beside "Ruby on Rails") is that we have
> had such a framework in the past (for our home build persistence
> layer) and its really a time saver - now we moved to hibernate & JSF
> and thus I'll build this again, but now with the hope that others can
> benefit from this too.
>
> Jump in!
> ---
> Mario
>
>
--
Jacob Hookom - Minneapolis
--------------------------
http://hookom.blogspot.com
Re: Faces Freeway
Posted by Alberto Molpeceres <al...@gmail.com>.
On 12/4/05, Mario Ivankovits <ma...@ops.co.at> wrote:
> Alberto Molpeceres wrote:
> > I started a time ago a project in SF called Licurgo
> > (http://licurgo.sourceforge.net), altough I haven't take part in its
> > development in the last months.
> >
> > This is a persistence framework based on Ralph Johnson's Dynamic
> > Object Models
> Do you mean this is a replacement for hibernate?
Yes. What I had in mind was something similar to Oracle's HTML DB. You
can create tables and perform CRUD operations from/to DB directly 100%
from browser. Using a dynamic model allows you to do that in an easy
way: drop war, ask for DB information (or use an own instance of
HSQLDB) and display forms to create tables and fields. Than, if you
like, create automatically JSF pages from that data or write a page
which renders it on the fly. No more. No java for the user.
That was what I was proposing, but of course this is for a kind of
final applications, not what you are talking about right now.
Bye,
al.
Re: Faces Freeway
Posted by Mario Ivankovits <ma...@ops.co.at>.
Alberto Molpeceres wrote:
> I started a time ago a project in SF called Licurgo
> (http://licurgo.sourceforge.net), altough I haven't take part in its
> development in the last months.
>
> This is a persistence framework based on Ralph Johnson's Dynamic
> Object Models
Do you mean this is a replacement for hibernate?
Getting the informations needed from the database and/or from hibernate
isnt that complicated, complicated is the way how to present (JSF) them
in an automatic way.
BTW: FacesFreeway should use EJB3 annotations by default to get all this
information, so there should be need to have a database at all.
---
Mario
Re: Faces Freeway
Posted by Alberto Molpeceres <al...@gmail.com>.
I started a time ago a project in SF called Licurgo
(http://licurgo.sourceforge.net), altough I haven't take part in its
development in the last months.
This is a persistence framework based on Ralph Johnson's Dynamic
Object Models (http://st-www.cs.uiuc.edu/users/johnson/DOM.html), and
I have always thought it could be useful for building something
similar to RnR. In fact, we did int in my last company, only we didn't
make much propaganda (neither documentation :-( ).
I don't know it this could fit in the Idea you have. You can get
almost all needed information from database, so it could be very easy
to do what you purpose in both cases.
Bye,
al.
On 12/3/05, Martin Marinschek <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I like the idea!
>
> I am currently so involved in projects that I haven't got a clue if I
> can be of any help, but if I can, I will try to contribute.
>
> regards,
>
> Martin
>
> I am right now in far
> On 12/3/05, Mario Ivankovits <ma...@ops.co.at> wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > Inspired from the "Ruby on Rails" Demo in vienna I would like to develop
> > a "rapid web-framework", "prototyping framework" or call it anything
> > else for JSF too.
> >
> > Please have a look at
> >
> > http://wiki.apache.org/myfaces/FacesFreeway
> >
> > I am looking forwar for a vital discussion about it.
> >
> > I hope I were able to express all my thoughts, if any german speaking
> > people is able to bring this proposal into a more understandable english
> > I'll be happy.
> >
> >
> > The main motivation for this (beside "Ruby on Rails") is that we have
> > had such a framework in the past (for our home build persistence layer)
> > and its really a time saver - now we moved to hibernate & JSF and thus
> > I'll build this again, but now with the hope that others can benefit
> > from this too.
> >
> > Jump in!
> > ---
> > Mario
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> http://www.irian.at
>
> Your JSF powerhouse -
> JSF Consulting, Development and
> Courses in English and German
>
> Professional Support for Apache MyFaces
>
--
Alberto Molpeceres
alberto.molpeceres@linkingpaths.com
(+34) 661 304 614
Linking Paths
Francisco Maciá 11, 7º - 48014 Bilbao
(+34) 944 764 328
http://www.linkingpaths.com
Re: Faces Freeway
Posted by Martin Marinschek <ma...@gmail.com>.
I like the idea!
I am currently so involved in projects that I haven't got a clue if I
can be of any help, but if I can, I will try to contribute.
regards,
Martin
I am right now in far
On 12/3/05, Mario Ivankovits <ma...@ops.co.at> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Inspired from the "Ruby on Rails" Demo in vienna I would like to develop
> a "rapid web-framework", "prototyping framework" or call it anything
> else for JSF too.
>
> Please have a look at
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/myfaces/FacesFreeway
>
> I am looking forwar for a vital discussion about it.
>
> I hope I were able to express all my thoughts, if any german speaking
> people is able to bring this proposal into a more understandable english
> I'll be happy.
>
>
> The main motivation for this (beside "Ruby on Rails") is that we have
> had such a framework in the past (for our home build persistence layer)
> and its really a time saver - now we moved to hibernate & JSF and thus
> I'll build this again, but now with the hope that others can benefit
> from this too.
>
> Jump in!
> ---
> Mario
>
>
--
http://www.irian.at
Your JSF powerhouse -
JSF Consulting, Development and
Courses in English and German
Professional Support for Apache MyFaces
Re: Faces Freeway
Posted by Mario Ivankovits <ma...@ops.co.at>.
Hi Werner!
>> I'll have a look at it, but for what I have seen now, there might be
>> much I really can reuse from them.
Sorry, there is a word missing here ("there might NOT be much")
If you might have a look in their cvs
https://trails.dev.java.net/source/browse/trails/src/org/trails/
you will see there are "tapestry" imports all around.
e.g. trails/component and trails/page do have tapestry imports all
around, but they contains some of the heart of tapestry
They use spring to tie hibernate and tapestry together (see:
http://www.cstengel.de/tutorial/trails_firebird_tutorial/)
And they use aspect-J - not that I dont like aspect-J, but .... I wont
use it now and for this project, it should make our live easier with the
tools we have to handle today and not introduce new technologies.
Also I would like to get in full touch with the JSF possibilities. If
you use a framework which should handle tapestry and/or other
web-frameworks you have to find the least possible set of possibilites.
So, I'll get ideas how they handle the persistence stuff, but even this
I'll reimplement from scratch with the possibility in mind to plugin
JBoss Seam later.
Ok, this is my view today, though, if there is something happening which
will revert my mind it will be fine too.
---
Mario
Re: Faces Freeway
Posted by Werner Punz <we...@gmx.at>.
Mario Ivankovits wrote:
> Hi Werner,
>
>>> Inspired from the "Ruby on Rails" Demo in vienna I would like to
>>> develop a "rapid web-framework", "prototyping framework" or call it
>>> anything else for JSF too.
>>
>> Hi Mario, good to hear from you again,
>
> Hope you have had a power outlet in your train ;-)
>
Hungarian coach from Budapest, not really...
but given the fact that it was a late train, I got some sleep before
having to get up at 7 the next day ;-)
>> Trails .... currently use Tapestry as view target
>
> I'll have a look at it, but for what I have seen now, there might be
> much I really can reuse from them.
>
> 1) the Tapestry output needs to be replaced by JSF
> 2) the whole (bean) controller stuff needs to be a JSF component
>
> But hey, I can take the one or other idea from them.
>
Actually from what I could gather, you are very correct with your
assumptions, according to the blog, the frontend stuff can easily be
replaced since the whole thing was designed with modularity in mind.
So my guess having a trails jsf frontend would be the best option
instead of going the separate project route.
Re: Faces Freeway
Posted by Mario Ivankovits <ma...@ops.co.at>.
Hi Werner,
>> Inspired from the "Ruby on Rails" Demo in vienna I would like to
>> develop a "rapid web-framework", "prototyping framework" or call it
>> anything else for JSF too.
> Hi Mario, good to hear from you again,
Hope you have had a power outlet in your train ;-)
> Trails .... currently use Tapestry as view target
I'll have a look at it, but for what I have seen now, there might be
much I really can reuse from them.
1) the Tapestry output needs to be replaced by JSF
2) the whole (bean) controller stuff needs to be a JSF component
But hey, I can take the one or other idea from them.
Thanks!
Mario
Re: Faces Freeway
Posted by Werner Punz <we...@gmx.at>.
Mario Ivankovits wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Inspired from the "Ruby on Rails" Demo in vienna I would like to develop
> a "rapid web-framework", "prototyping framework" or call it anything
> else for JSF too.
>
Hi Mario, good to hear from you again, I do not thing that it really
makes sense to start from the scratch, the Trails people already have
covered a lot of ground of what you are trying to achive, in fact all
which is neede is a different view target, they currently use Tapestry
as view target for their tools but they said basically any component
based framework should do the trick if the tools are arranged for it.