RE: Question about IP rights

[Steve Huston <sh...@riverace.com>]

Hi Carl,

Thanks for replying.

The situation here is somewhat different. I'm doing the work and
creating the code, yes, and I'm a committer with an ICLA on file. So
in cases where I just do the work, all the rights go to Apache. No
problem.

In times when I've advised Microsoft folks on code they were doing,
I've told them straight up it has to go in via a JIRA with rights
assigned. Don't give it to me, I can't help you.

However, the wrinkle here is that I'm being paid by Microsoft to work
on some parts of Qpid. In this case, the code is a "work for hire" and
Microsoft owns it. Since I don't have the right to give Microsoft's
stuff away, I'm stuck. So even though Microsoft will pay me for the
work, and they want it to go to Apache, I can't give it to Apache
(that's my understanding) since Microsoft won't let go of the rights
and I can't do it for them.

For other work I do on Qpid for another customer I got the customer to
sign a rights assignment to me; then I can give it away to Apache. In
this case, though, Microsoft is acknowledging there's an issue (as
does Apache, apparantly) but nobody is budging on the rights
assignment.

-Steve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl Trieloff [mailto:cctrieloff@redhat.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 5:55 PM
> To: private@qpid.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Question about IP rights
> 
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
> What happens is that if you write the code, you own the 
> rights. however 
> the way apache deals
> with this is that they require you to gaunt a license. Thus all code

> needs to be submitted to the
>  project via JIRA, if you are not a committer. When adding 
> the code to 
> the JIRA, there is a
> check box, which has the 'I agree' which gives apache everything
they 
> needs from a licensing
> rights perspective.
> 
> So that is why we have to be very strict, that any contribution
taken 
> into the project has to be
> submitted via JIRA from non-committers. So if you make it the 
> rule that 
> anything microsoft
> does, make sure they don't give it directly to you, but 
> attach it to a 
> JIRA in the form of a diff
> and in so doing they are agreeing to the terms required by the
apache
> 
> The ICLA then comes into play if they get nominated for
commitership, 
> and it has to be on-file
> before they can get an account. The ICLA then states, that 
> all work you 
> submit, you guarantee
> is you own closing that off from the legal side.
> 
> So, the basic rules is ---  I can't commit it unless you 
> attach it to a 
> JIRA for any non committer.
> 
> does that answer the question?
> 
>  there is also legal-discuss@apache.org
> Carl.
> 
> Steve Huston wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > I have a somewhat delicate situation and not sure how to resolve
it.
> > I'm doing some work on Qpid for Microsoft (the build stuff 
> going over
> > to cmake, primarily, but the DLL stuff is semi-involved here too).
> > I've signed the Apache ICLA, but Microsoft also claims ownership
of
> > work they're paying for.
> >
> > I've tried to push Microsoft to get explicit about the fact 
> that this
> > work is for Apache Qpid and Microsoft gives up the rights, but I'm
> > getting a lot of hand-waving that I'm not totally comfortable
with.
> > Apparantly Microsoft and Apache have discussed this and they all
> > recognize the issue, but nobody has a solution.
> >
> > Here's what I was told... "Also your situation is exactly 
> the same as
> > [some other people that work for Microsoft]. We are Microsoft
> > employees/contractors and Microsoft owns all rights to the 
> work we do.
> > But we contribute to Apache because Microsoft has allowed 
> us to do so.
> > We didn't get an explicit letter stating that, but it was 
> part of what
> > we talked to Apache about."
> >
> > Now, I am certainly not a lawyer, but the above sounds rather
> > non-committal and scary given Microsoft's legal department. Is
there
> > someone (if not in this group) that I can discuss this with 
> at Apache?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -Steve Huston
> >
> >   
> 


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Re: Question about IP rights

[Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>]

Just one point, in case it isn't clear (from the discussion here,  
there might be a misunderstanding about rights versus ownership).

Microsoft still has ownership of the code you write under a "work for  
hire" contract. Primarily what a CLA does is to grant rights to Apache  
to distribute and relicense the code.

Generally, Apache encourages corporations to file CCLAs primarily for  
protection of the employee (contractor). If you've kept your employer  
informed that the code you're writing is being licensed to Apache, and  
your management specifically directs you to continue, that's good  
enough. I'd say the only thing to worry about is if you're  
contributing code to Apache and they think you're working on something  
else.

Craig

On Mar 5, 2009, at 4:25 PM, Doug Cutting wrote:

> Steve Huston wrote:
>> So even though Microsoft will pay me for the
>> work, and they want it to go to Apache, I can't give it to Apache
>> (that's my understanding) since Microsoft won't let go of the rights
>> and I can't do it for them.
>
> If Microsoft directs you to give it to Apache, that's sufficient.   
> But, to be safe, you should get it in writing.  The CCLA is a good  
> way to get it in writing, but by no means the only way.  For  
> example, I altered my current employment agreement before signing it  
> to explicitly permit me to contribute to certain Apache projects.   
> When I was a contractor I would generally amend my contract to  
> specify this.  Perhaps you can similarly amend your contract?  Or at  
> least get a letter or email that documents that you've been directed  
> to contribute your work to Apache.
>
> Doug
>
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>

Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!

Re: Question about IP rights

[Doug Cutting <cu...@apache.org>]

Steve Huston wrote:
> So even though Microsoft will pay me for the
> work, and they want it to go to Apache, I can't give it to Apache
> (that's my understanding) since Microsoft won't let go of the rights
> and I can't do it for them.

If Microsoft directs you to give it to Apache, that's sufficient.  But, 
to be safe, you should get it in writing.  The CCLA is a good way to get 
it in writing, but by no means the only way.  For example, I altered my 
current employment agreement before signing it to explicitly permit me 
to contribute to certain Apache projects.  When I was a contractor I 
would generally amend my contract to specify this.  Perhaps you can 
similarly amend your contract?  Or at least get a letter or email that 
documents that you've been directed to contribute your work to Apache.

Doug

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RE: Question about IP rights

[Steve Huston <sh...@riverace.com>]

Hi Aidan,

> On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 11:09 PM, Steve Huston 
> <sh...@riverace.com> wrote:
> 
> > However, the wrinkle here is that I'm being paid by 
> Microsoft to work
> > on some parts of Qpid. In this case, the code is a "work 
> for hire" and
> > Microsoft owns it. Since I don't have the right to give
Microsoft's
> > stuff away, I'm stuck. So even though Microsoft will pay me for
the
> > work, and they want it to go to Apache, I can't give it to Apache
> > (that's my understanding) since Microsoft won't let go of the
rights
> > and I can't do it for them.
> 
> Do they have a CCLA on file?

I don't know; I sent that question off to my contact.

-Steve


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Re: Question about IP rights

[Aidan Skinner <ai...@gmail.com>]

On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 11:09 PM, Steve Huston <sh...@riverace.com> wrote:

> However, the wrinkle here is that I'm being paid by Microsoft to work
> on some parts of Qpid. In this case, the code is a "work for hire" and
> Microsoft owns it. Since I don't have the right to give Microsoft's
> stuff away, I'm stuck. So even though Microsoft will pay me for the
> work, and they want it to go to Apache, I can't give it to Apache
> (that's my understanding) since Microsoft won't let go of the rights
> and I can't do it for them.

Do they have a CCLA on file?

- Aidan
-- 
Apache Qpid - World Domination through Advanced Message Queueing
http://qpid.apache.org

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