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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk> on 2005/06/19 12:37:37 UTC
Re: [PROPOSAL] subproject that's a home for bricks reusable in
java web applications
On Fri, 2005-06-17 at 19:38 -0400, Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> Java Web Parts is the name of the SF project I began that is exactly
> what is being described here. Not that I have a trademark on it or
> anything, and besides, I don't have enough lawyers to trademark common
> words, like oh, I don't know, Windows?!? :)
web parts is a good name. trademarks are of particular importance for
the ASF but it's also important to do the right thing ethically. i
wouldn't be happy to see a jakarta subproject take the name of a related
open source project against the wishes of those involved in that
project.
web parts appears to in use by dot net. not sure whether anyone holds
trademarks. FWIW AIUI sun are opposed to names such as java web parts
(trademark reasons): they believe it should be web parts for java
(WP4J).
maybe web bricks might be a possible alternative (but this name is also
already used by a web site).
in any case, the official name would be jakarta web parts (or jakarta
web bricks). if a consensus emerges then the pmc could probably check
out the legal side.
> Incidentally, I was one of the people involved in those threads
> discussing this idea... I could be persuaded to fold my work into this
> subproject, but I would like to see that the consensus on direction is
> similar to what I've done. Perhaps I should briefly describe my project...
>
> It is what we are discussing here: a repository for small, generally
> independent components of interest to general Java webapp developers.
> It consists of a number of packages including Filters, Servlets,
> Taglibs, Request (general request-related utilities), Response (general
> response-related utilities and Session (I think you see the pattern!).
> Right now I have 3 filters, 1 servlet and some miscellaneous code in the
> other packages... There will likely be more after tonight in CVS.
>
> In fact, the only packages with nothing at this point is the Response
> and Taglib packages.
>
> I have a list of over a dozen things I intend to build over the next few
> weeks. Also included in all this is a single webapp that demonstrates
> and tests all components. Some others have expressed interest in
> contributing as well and I am awaiting their code to add.
>
> Each of these packages gets JARed separately, so a developer can pick
> and choose as they see fit. Cross-package dependencies are to be
> frowned upon, unless it is an absolute necessity. Also, external
> dependencies are to be kept to a minimum.
>
> Again, since I originally made a proposal for a Commons Filters project
> and just expanded on that in starting Java Web Parts, I would still have
> interest in working with Jakarta instead. There is definite benefit to
> doing that. But I would have to believe the vision for the project is
> in line, at least mostly, with what I had planned. But if finding
> people to do the work is what is needed to get such a project off the
> ground at Jakarta, I'm here, I'm willing and have in fact already begun
> the work in essence.
the new subproject would need a charter. development of the charter is
required before the subproject could start. the vision will be embedded
in the charter so it's subject to development by the community but
(personally speaking) i had in mind something very similar.
anyone else have any radically different ideas?
this leads to the question: what's the best way to develop the charter?
i've been contemplating using the wiki to store a working draft whilst
debating content on this list. opinions?
- robert
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Re: [PROPOSAL] subproject that's a home for bricks reusable in
java web applications
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
On Wed, 2005-06-22 at 16:53 -0400, Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> I'll step back and let you guys get it off the ground then...
no one's asking you to step back :)
the reason why this discussion was moved to this forum was to encourage
people to get involved with the discussion and help to shape the sub
project. consider staying and doing that.
it's important to understand that there's a distinction between
importing existing code into apache (which would mean incubation to
build a community, educate committers and ensure there were no legal
issues) and collaborating in the development of new code covering
similar ground.
i can think of (at least) one example of a Jakarta Commons committer who
developed open source libraries covering similar ground. the apache
contributions were new code and so the question of importing code does
not arise.
> However, the one point that I believe to be very relevant at this
> junction, in light of what Robert has said about a name being required
> up-front, is that I may not be willing to give up the Java Web Parts
> name. Since that was one of the suggestions, I think that is a relevant
> point. And since mere similarity of names was mentioned by someone as
> well, it is that much more relevant.
fine (feel free to remove any names you're not happy with from the wiki)
> Martin Cooper wrote:
> > Can we please separate the two different topics being discussed here?
+1
we need to start some new threads with better subjects...
- robert
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Re: [PROPOSAL] subproject that's a home for bricks reusable in java
web applications
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
I'll step back and let you guys get it off the ground then...
However, the one point that I believe to be very relevant at this
junction, in light of what Robert has said about a name being required
up-front, is that I may not be willing to give up the Java Web Parts
name. Since that was one of the suggestions, I think that is a relevant
point. And since mere similarity of names was mentioned by someone as
well, it is that much more relevant.
Frank
Martin Cooper wrote:
> Can we please separate the two different topics being discussed here?
>
> The original purpose of this discussion was to see if there is general
> concensus that a Webapp Commons (or whatever name we end up with) is a
> good idea. If we think it is, then we need to develop a charter, come up
> with a name, and officially make the proposal to the PMC. We also need
> to discuss other aspects, such as whether or not we want to follow the
> Jakarta Commons model, with separate Proper and Sandbox components.
>
> Once we've got to that point, we can have discussions about the various
> sources from which code might be contributed. Some of those will be from
> inside of Jakarta, or other ASF projects, and some might be from
> external sources. IMHO, the discussion of potential external sources and
> potential new ASF committers is premature at this point. I think we need
> to get off the ground first.
>
> Finally, I'll point out that any substantive contributions would need to
> come in through the incubator. That being the case, we're not in any
> position to make judgements or promises, here and now, about what can be
> brought in and / or who may or may not become committers on the new
> subproject.
>
> (Frank, I am *not* trying to shut you out. I'm simply trying to get the
> new subproject off the ground without complicating things by discussing
> external elements prematurely.)
>
> --
> Martin Cooper
>
>
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
>
>> robert burrell donkin wrote:
>>
>>> that's understandable but is likely to cause wrinkles in the approval
>>> process. a subproject needs a name and a charter before it can be
>>> approved. no guarantees could be offered since accepting new committers
>>> is something that sould be delegated to the new community.
>>
>>
>> I definitely see the conundrum.
>>
>> You touched on something too that I hadn't even brought up directly...
>> If I'm going to give up the name, and end my project and contribute
>> all the code I've written, I don't think it is unreasonable to ask to
>> be a committer on the new Jakarta project.
>>
>> I may be mistaken, but I thought part of the approval process is a
>> list of initial committers? I thought I had seen that at one point on
>> the new project proposal paperwork. If so, I'd say that could take
>> care of this part of things because I could be named a committer
>> initially, then everything else as far as names and initial code goes
>> falls in to place pretty easily.
>>
>>> anyone have any opinions about this?
>>
>>
>> If the above isn't true, one possible suggestion is to proceed with a
>> contingent name... The contingency being the community accepting me as
>> a committer. There would still be a name in reserve if that should
>> not happen.
>>
>> I hope I'm not coming across like an a**hole here trying to worm my
>> way in... I believe what I'm saying is reasonable, if anyone disagrees
>> please feel free to tell me so.
>>
>>> if you could leave it a little while before changing the name of your
>>> project to WP4J, that might give us some time to prepare the documents
>>> in...
>>
>>
>> I actually didn't mean I would change my project name... In my mind,
>> there are three possible paths here...
>>
>> One is that the Jakarta project takes my name, and my projects ends
>> and all the code is contributed. Two is that the Jakarta project
>> takes a completely different name and I still end my project and
>> contribute all the code. Third is that my project continues as-is and
>> the Jakarta project takes a completely different name.
>>
>> There is the fourth option of me changing my proejects' name and
>> keeping in separate, but that presents problems for me at this point
>> so I wouldn't be especially inclined to do that. I suppose I wouldn't
>> rule it completely out, but it would definitely be last on my list.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
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>>
>
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>
>
>
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
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Re: [PROPOSAL] subproject that's a home for bricks reusable in java
web applications
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
Can we please separate the two different topics being discussed here?
The original purpose of this discussion was to see if there is general
concensus that a Webapp Commons (or whatever name we end up with) is a
good idea. If we think it is, then we need to develop a charter, come up
with a name, and officially make the proposal to the PMC. We also need to
discuss other aspects, such as whether or not we want to follow the
Jakarta Commons model, with separate Proper and Sandbox components.
Once we've got to that point, we can have discussions about the various
sources from which code might be contributed. Some of those will be from
inside of Jakarta, or other ASF projects, and some might be from external
sources. IMHO, the discussion of potential external sources and potential
new ASF committers is premature at this point. I think we need to get off
the ground first.
Finally, I'll point out that any substantive contributions would need to
come in through the incubator. That being the case, we're not in any
position to make judgements or promises, here and now, about what can be
brought in and / or who may or may not become committers on the new
subproject.
(Frank, I am *not* trying to shut you out. I'm simply trying to get the
new subproject off the ground without complicating things by discussing
external elements prematurely.)
--
Martin Cooper
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> robert burrell donkin wrote:
>> that's understandable but is likely to cause wrinkles in the approval
>> process. a subproject needs a name and a charter before it can be
>> approved. no guarantees could be offered since accepting new committers
>> is something that sould be delegated to the new community.
>
> I definitely see the conundrum.
>
> You touched on something too that I hadn't even brought up directly... If I'm
> going to give up the name, and end my project and contribute all the code
> I've written, I don't think it is unreasonable to ask to be a committer on
> the new Jakarta project.
>
> I may be mistaken, but I thought part of the approval process is a list of
> initial committers? I thought I had seen that at one point on the new
> project proposal paperwork. If so, I'd say that could take care of this part
> of things because I could be named a committer initially, then everything
> else as far as names and initial code goes falls in to place pretty easily.
>
>> anyone have any opinions about this?
>
> If the above isn't true, one possible suggestion is to proceed with a
> contingent name... The contingency being the community accepting me as a
> committer. There would still be a name in reserve if that should not happen.
>
> I hope I'm not coming across like an a**hole here trying to worm my way in...
> I believe what I'm saying is reasonable, if anyone disagrees please feel free
> to tell me so.
>
>> if you could leave it a little while before changing the name of your
>> project to WP4J, that might give us some time to prepare the documents
>> in...
>
> I actually didn't mean I would change my project name... In my mind, there
> are three possible paths here...
>
> One is that the Jakarta project takes my name, and my projects ends and all
> the code is contributed. Two is that the Jakarta project takes a completely
> different name and I still end my project and contribute all the code. Third
> is that my project continues as-is and the Jakarta project takes a completely
> different name.
>
> There is the fourth option of me changing my proejects' name and keeping in
> separate, but that presents problems for me at this point so I wouldn't be
> especially inclined to do that. I suppose I wouldn't rule it completely out,
> but it would definitely be last on my list.
>
> Frank
>
>
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>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] subproject that's a home for bricks reusable in java
web applications
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
robert burrell donkin wrote:
> that's understandable but is likely to cause wrinkles in the approval
> process. a subproject needs a name and a charter before it can be
> approved. no guarantees could be offered since accepting new committers
> is something that sould be delegated to the new community.
I definitely see the conundrum.
You touched on something too that I hadn't even brought up directly...
If I'm going to give up the name, and end my project and contribute all
the code I've written, I don't think it is unreasonable to ask to be a
committer on the new Jakarta project.
I may be mistaken, but I thought part of the approval process is a list
of initial committers? I thought I had seen that at one point on the
new project proposal paperwork. If so, I'd say that could take care of
this part of things because I could be named a committer initially, then
everything else as far as names and initial code goes falls in to place
pretty easily.
> anyone have any opinions about this?
If the above isn't true, one possible suggestion is to proceed with a
contingent name... The contingency being the community accepting me as a
committer. There would still be a name in reserve if that should not
happen.
I hope I'm not coming across like an a**hole here trying to worm my way
in... I believe what I'm saying is reasonable, if anyone disagrees
please feel free to tell me so.
> if you could leave it a little while before changing the name of your
> project to WP4J, that might give us some time to prepare the documents
> in...
I actually didn't mean I would change my project name... In my mind,
there are three possible paths here...
One is that the Jakarta project takes my name, and my projects ends and
all the code is contributed. Two is that the Jakarta project takes a
completely different name and I still end my project and contribute all
the code. Third is that my project continues as-is and the Jakarta
project takes a completely different name.
There is the fourth option of me changing my proejects' name and keeping
in separate, but that presents problems for me at this point so I
wouldn't be especially inclined to do that. I suppose I wouldn't rule
it completely out, but it would definitely be last on my list.
Frank
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RE: [PROPOSAL] subproject that's a home for bricks reusablein java web applications
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > Or Jakarta Web Parts For Java, or JWP4J, which has the benefit of
> > being what I am now (JWP) with 4J appended. I for one like it!
> that sounds good to me too.
> anyone else have an opinion?
I believe that the PRC wants an Apache branding, but check.
Sorry for short reply, but my computer is literally in the process of dying
for the second time in a month (after repair), and I'm quickly posting this
before shutting down. I'll be offline for at least a few days.
--- Noel
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Re: [PROPOSAL] subproject that's a home for bricks reusable
in java web applications
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 15:34 -0400, Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> robert burrell donkin wrote:
> > web parts is a good name.
>
> I thought so... that's why I chose it ;)
>
> > trademarks are of particular importance for
> > the ASF but it's also important to do the right thing ethically. i
> > wouldn't be happy to see a jakarta subproject take the name of a related
> > open source project against the wishes of those involved in that
> > project.
>
> It might be worth noting that this weekend marked the first actual
> release of my project... granted it's a pre-alpha release, but a release
> none the less. I am still interested in collapsing my project into this
> new Jakarta sub-project, hence my participation in this discussion... if
> that happens, Jakarta Web Parts sounds good to me, I'd have no problem
> closing down my project and passing the name along. If my project
> remains separate though, I'd prefer to not have to change my name :)
that's understandable but is likely to cause wrinkles in the approval
process. a subproject needs a name and a charter before it can be
approved. no guarantees could be offered since accepting new committers
is something that sould be delegated to the new community.
anyone have any opinions about this?
> > web parts appears to in use by dot net. not sure whether anyone holds
> > trademarks. FWIW AIUI sun are opposed to names such as java web parts
> > (trademark reasons): they believe it should be web parts for java
> > (WP4J).
>
> Well, if it is part of .Net, then maybe I have to change mine anyway :)
> In any case, I actually very much like the Sun approach here, although
> I'm not sure I know why! Web Parts For Java (WP4J) sounds pretty
> good... although JWP is a shorter abbreviation ;)
if you could leave it a little while before changing the name of your
project to WP4J, that might give us some time to prepare the documents
in...
> > in any case, the official name would be jakarta web parts (or jakarta
> > web bricks). if a consensus emerges then the pmc could probably check
> > out the legal side.
>
> Or Jakarta Web Parts For Java, or JWP4J, which has the benefit of being
> what I am now (JWP) with 4J appended. I for one like it!
that sounds good to me too.
anyone else have an opinion?
> > this leads to the question: what's the best way to develop the charter?
> >
> > i've been contemplating using the wiki to store a working draft whilst
> > debating content on this list. opinions?
>
> That seems reasonable to me... In fact, what might be nice is to have a
> link off the Wiki page labeled Request For Comments... that way people
> can post their ideas to that without the possibility of missing anything
> on the mailing list, and without changing the content outright... I'm
> sure we all have our filters set up and we all try to manually filter as
> well, and I for one can't say I've never missed something I would have
> been interested in.
that sounds like a good plan.
- robert
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Re: [PROPOSAL] subproject that's a home for bricks reusable in java
web applications
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
First of all, happy Father's Day to all my fellow male parental units
out there... hope you got to sleep in... I didn't :(
robert burrell donkin wrote:
> web parts is a good name.
I thought so... that's why I chose it ;)
> trademarks are of particular importance for
> the ASF but it's also important to do the right thing ethically. i
> wouldn't be happy to see a jakarta subproject take the name of a related
> open source project against the wishes of those involved in that
> project.
It might be worth noting that this weekend marked the first actual
release of my project... granted it's a pre-alpha release, but a release
none the less. I am still interested in collapsing my project into this
new Jakarta sub-project, hence my participation in this discussion... if
that happens, Jakarta Web Parts sounds good to me, I'd have no problem
closing down my project and passing the name along. If my project
remains separate though, I'd prefer to not have to change my name :)
> web parts appears to in use by dot net. not sure whether anyone holds
> trademarks. FWIW AIUI sun are opposed to names such as java web parts
> (trademark reasons): they believe it should be web parts for java
> (WP4J).
Well, if it is part of .Net, then maybe I have to change mine anyway :)
In any case, I actually very much like the Sun approach here, although
I'm not sure I know why! Web Parts For Java (WP4J) sounds pretty
good... although JWP is a shorter abbreviation ;)
> in any case, the official name would be jakarta web parts (or jakarta
> web bricks). if a consensus emerges then the pmc could probably check
> out the legal side.
Or Jakarta Web Parts For Java, or JWP4J, which has the benefit of being
what I am now (JWP) with 4J appended. I for one like it!
> the new subproject would need a charter. development of the charter is
> required before the subproject could start. the vision will be embedded
> in the charter so it's subject to development by the community but
> (personally speaking) i had in mind something very similar.
Glad to hear it! If everyone else is thinking along the same lines I'd
say I'm into it as well.
> this leads to the question: what's the best way to develop the charter?
>
> i've been contemplating using the wiki to store a working draft whilst
> debating content on this list. opinions?
That seems reasonable to me... In fact, what might be nice is to have a
link off the Wiki page labeled Request For Comments... that way people
can post their ideas to that without the possibility of missing anything
on the mailing list, and without changing the content outright... I'm
sure we all have our filters set up and we all try to manually filter as
well, and I for one can't say I've never missed something I would have
been interested in.
> - robert
Frank
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