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Posted to dev@struts.apache.org by Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org> on 2008/04/07 15:08:17 UTC
Feature sponsorship proposal
As more and more companies start using open source software, many,
like mine, are looking for ways to give back to the community. They
want a way to contribute and ensure their contribution will be noticed
and appreciated. What if we had a feature sponsorship program that
encouraged companies to donate engineering time to filling out needed
features in Struts?
I imagine it would work like this:
1. The Struts community comes up with a short list of desired
features with high-level specs
2. Companies (or individuals) could "sign up" for a feature and
donate internal engineering time to implementing the feature
3. The Struts community would review then commit the feature
4. The release notes for that version and perhaps somewhere on the
website would note who gets credit for the feature
This would help those that want to donate time what features are most
needed by the community and give them a way to receive recognition for
their work in a very public way. A key component in this proposal
is the way credit is given to the work, something that might encourage
the marketing departments of the respective companies. The list of
desired features is also important as it ensures their effort will not
be in vain, and it also implies the support of the Struts dev
community to work to apply the patch in a timely manner.
Thoughts?
Don
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Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
On Tue, April 8, 2008 9:30 am, Martin Gilday wrote:
> How do you decide if the dontated feature is large enough to warrant
> creditation?
All of my open-source projects run under the idea that *every*
contribution of *any* size should be acknowledged. Each of them (JWP and
DataVision for example) include a list of contributors somewhere (JWP has
a separate contributors file:
http://javawebparts.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/javawebparts/trunk/javawebparts/contributors.txt?view=markup
while DataVision has it as part of it's changelog:
http://datavision.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/datavision/trunk/ChangeLog?view=markup
as well as the Credits section of the web site and documentation) in which
we say what they contributed and simply say thanks. Even if they just
point something out that a committer later addresses, i.e., they don't
contribute code or documentation something "concrete", they still deserve
a mention IMO.
(I don't know what project Don was referring to originally, but all the
ones I run have this basic philosophy as he described)
> Do you take it away once the feature has changed substantially over
> time?
IMO, no. You just keep building up the list forever. I don't see how you
do otherwise. Just because the code someone contributed is no longer in
use doesn't mean acknolwedgement of their involvement should be taken
away. They still took the time to contribute in some fashion and
therefore deserve to be listed as long as the project continues.
Frank
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Author of "Practical DWR 2 Projects"
and "JavaScript, DOM Scripting and Ajax Projects"
and "Practical Ajax Projects With Java Technology"
for info: apress.com/book/search?searchterm=zammetti&act=search
Java Web Parts - javawebparts.sourceforge.net
Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
My "look ma, I have a blog too!" blog: zammetti.com/blog
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Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Martin Gilday <ma...@imap.cc>.
I have to say I'm not really convinced this would be a benefit to the
project. I'm sure there are rules in the ASF and licenses that prevent
it, but I can ony see an increase in conflicts of interest.
How do you decide if the dontated feature is large enough to warrant
creditation?
Do you take it away once the feature has changed substantially over
time?
The license prevents it but there could be disputes when individuals
change the functionality of a corporate component, that they feel they
have some ownership of.
Giving thanks to someone for working on a feature should of course
happen, but this is very different to stating on the website that the
Parameters Interceptor is the work of Joe Bloggs. That would certinaly
take away the feeling of collective ownership of the codebase.
The fact that many projects are thriving without this suggests that
maybe Struts is simply going though a stagnant period (I know that a lot
of hard work is being done on 2.1, but it very much seems like the
efforts of a core team). If a company with the resources required a
feature would they not just create it? The fact they are not donated
back smacks more of corporate policies, which this simply wouldn't
change. Getting recognition is simply not of interest to a lot of
businesses. Partly due to responsibilities it perceives it brings as
well of being of little benefit. Would consumers really care that
donations of code had been made to Struts? I can only think in the case
of peers and consulting it would. Most certainly wouldn't when buying a
book from say Amazon.
I hope this isn't true of all companies, but it certainly is of the few
I have worked for.
----- Original message -----
From: "Don Brown" <mr...@twdata.org>
To: "Struts Developers List" <de...@struts.apache.org>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 23:08:17 +1000
Subject: Feature sponsorship proposal
As more and more companies start using open source software, many,
like mine, are looking for ways to give back to the community. They
want a way to contribute and ensure their contribution will be noticed
and appreciated. What if we had a feature sponsorship program that
encouraged companies to donate engineering time to filling out needed
features in Struts?
I imagine it would work like this:
1. The Struts community comes up with a short list of desired
features with high-level specs
2. Companies (or individuals) could "sign up" for a feature and
donate internal engineering time to implementing the feature
3. The Struts community would review then commit the feature
4. The release notes for that version and perhaps somewhere on the
website would note who gets credit for the feature
This would help those that want to donate time what features are most
needed by the community and give them a way to receive recognition for
their work in a very public way. A key component in this proposal
is the way credit is given to the work, something that might encourage
the marketing departments of the respective companies. The list of
desired features is also important as it ensures their effort will not
be in vain, and it also implies the support of the Struts dev
community to work to apply the patch in a timely manner.
Thoughts?
Don
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Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by James Holmes <ja...@jamesholmes.com>.
+1
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 9:08 AM, Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org> wrote:
> As more and more companies start using open source software, many,
> like mine, are looking for ways to give back to the community. They
> want a way to contribute and ensure their contribution will be noticed
> and appreciated. What if we had a feature sponsorship program that
> encouraged companies to donate engineering time to filling out needed
> features in Struts?
>
> I imagine it would work like this:
> 1. The Struts community comes up with a short list of desired
> features with high-level specs
> 2. Companies (or individuals) could "sign up" for a feature and
> donate internal engineering time to implementing the feature
> 3. The Struts community would review then commit the feature
> 4. The release notes for that version and perhaps somewhere on the
> website would note who gets credit for the feature
>
> This would help those that want to donate time what features are most
> needed by the community and give them a way to receive recognition for
> their work in a very public way. A key component in this proposal
> is the way credit is given to the work, something that might encourage
> the marketing departments of the respective companies. The list of
> desired features is also important as it ensures their effort will not
> be in vain, and it also implies the support of the Struts dev
> community to work to apply the patch in a timely manner.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Don
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
Fwd: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by James Mitchell <jm...@gmail.com>.
Thanks Henri for that clarification.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Henri Yandell <ba...@apache.org>
Date: Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
To: James Mitchell <jm...@gmail.com>
Cc: legal-discuss@apache.org, leland@speakeasy.net
It's one of the Incubator criteria for consideration when graduating a
project - "how dominated by one entity is it?".
The board ask the same question when reviewing TLPs. I don't believe
there's anything legal to it - it's about community risk. Having one
entity as the resource provider is a danger to the healthy of a
community.
Hen
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 1:06 PM, James Mitchell <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's a good question. I have always heard this was the case and I think
I
> remember someone sending out a link in the past, but I don't keep up with
> this kind of stuff.
>
> Can anyone on legal point me to such a paragraph? (sorry if this is the
> wrong forum for this question)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Rob Leland <le...@speakeasy.net>
> Date: Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 3:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
> To: Struts Developers List <de...@struts.apache.org>
>
>
> James Mitchell wrote:
>
> > I'm inclined to vote down anything mixing Community and Corporate
agenda.
> I
> > think that's just a bad mix. In fact, the ASF has specific
> rules/guidelines
> > with respect to corporate involvement (employment) with too many project
> >
> >
> Do you have that reference ?
>
>
>
>
>
> > leads.
> >
> > There's a reason that Apache projects are so successful, in one word ...
> > "community". I hate it as much as the next guy when movement seems to
> > stagnate for weeks/months, but that's never just cause to bring in
> > money/free stuff as incentive.
> >
> > The folks who want to help when there's a prize at the end will be the
> first
> > ones to dump your a## when you really need them, but don't have an
> incentive
> > to offer.
> >
> > If Struts (or any project) doesn't have enough volunteers to keep the
work
> > going, then we have bigger issues.
> >
> > Just my $0.02!
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Robert Leland <rl...@apache.org>
wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Don I have a few questions
> > >
> > > 1) I agree that this contribution has to be valuable to the
contributing
> > > company
> > > both technically and marketing. Back in 2003 when I obtained free
> IntelliJ
> > > licenses from Jetbrains for the Struts
> > > Committers all they wanted was acknowledgment on our web page and that
> was
> > > voted down as too commercial.
> > > To IntelliJ's credit they still provided the license and later
expanded
> it
> > > to all of Apache.
> > > How has the Struts PMC changed since then to allow what your proposing
?
> > >
> > > 2) What if a proposal isn't on the short list of features, however
when
> it
> > > is proposed the Struts community
> > > its viewed as a useful idea ?
> > >
> > > 3) What if it turns out that two competing companies have different
> > > implementations, which is a great place to be in.
> > > Do we need to think this far ahead or using Agile methods do we not
> > > want to over design this process initially ?
> > >
> > >
> > > -Rob
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Don Brown wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > As more and more companies start using open source software, many,
> > > > like mine, are looking for ways to give back to the community. They
> > > > want a way to contribute and ensure their contribution will be
noticed
> > > > and appreciated. What if we had a feature sponsorship program that
> > > > encouraged companies to donate engineering time to filling out
needed
> > > > features in Struts?
> > > >
> > > > I imagine it would work like this:
> > > > 1. The Struts community comes up with a short list of desired
> > > > features with high-level specs
> > > > 2. Companies (or individuals) could "sign up" for a feature and
> > > > donate internal engineering time to implementing the feature
> > > > 3. The Struts community would review then commit the feature
> > > > 4. The release notes for that version and perhaps somewhere on the
> > > > website would note who gets credit for the feature
> > > >
> > > > This would help those that want to donate time what features are
most
> > > > needed by the community and give them a way to receive recognition
for
> > > > their work in a very public way. A key component in this proposal
> > > > is the way credit is given to the work, something that might
encourage
> > > > the marketing departments of the respective companies. The list of
> > > > desired features is also important as it ensures their effort will
not
> > > > be in vain, and it also implies the support of the Struts dev
> > > > community to work to apply the patch in a timely manner.
> > > >
> > > > Thoughts?
> > > >
> > > > Don
> > > >
> > > >
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> James Mitchell
--
James Mitchell
Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@apache.org>.
It's one of the Incubator criteria for consideration when graduating a
project - "how dominated by one entity is it?".
The board ask the same question when reviewing TLPs. I don't believe
there's anything legal to it - it's about community risk. Having one
entity as the resource provider is a danger to the healthy of a
community.
Hen
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 1:06 PM, James Mitchell <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's a good question. I have always heard this was the case and I think I
> remember someone sending out a link in the past, but I don't keep up with
> this kind of stuff.
>
> Can anyone on legal point me to such a paragraph? (sorry if this is the
> wrong forum for this question)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Rob Leland <le...@speakeasy.net>
> Date: Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 3:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
> To: Struts Developers List <de...@struts.apache.org>
>
>
> James Mitchell wrote:
>
> > I'm inclined to vote down anything mixing Community and Corporate agenda.
> I
> > think that's just a bad mix. In fact, the ASF has specific
> rules/guidelines
> > with respect to corporate involvement (employment) with too many project
> >
> >
> Do you have that reference ?
>
>
>
>
>
> > leads.
> >
> > There's a reason that Apache projects are so successful, in one word ...
> > "community". I hate it as much as the next guy when movement seems to
> > stagnate for weeks/months, but that's never just cause to bring in
> > money/free stuff as incentive.
> >
> > The folks who want to help when there's a prize at the end will be the
> first
> > ones to dump your a## when you really need them, but don't have an
> incentive
> > to offer.
> >
> > If Struts (or any project) doesn't have enough volunteers to keep the work
> > going, then we have bigger issues.
> >
> > Just my $0.02!
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Robert Leland <rl...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Don I have a few questions
> > >
> > > 1) I agree that this contribution has to be valuable to the contributing
> > > company
> > > both technically and marketing. Back in 2003 when I obtained free
> IntelliJ
> > > licenses from Jetbrains for the Struts
> > > Committers all they wanted was acknowledgment on our web page and that
> was
> > > voted down as too commercial.
> > > To IntelliJ's credit they still provided the license and later expanded
> it
> > > to all of Apache.
> > > How has the Struts PMC changed since then to allow what your proposing ?
> > >
> > > 2) What if a proposal isn't on the short list of features, however when
> it
> > > is proposed the Struts community
> > > its viewed as a useful idea ?
> > >
> > > 3) What if it turns out that two competing companies have different
> > > implementations, which is a great place to be in.
> > > Do we need to think this far ahead or using Agile methods do we not
> > > want to over design this process initially ?
> > >
> > >
> > > -Rob
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Don Brown wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > As more and more companies start using open source software, many,
> > > > like mine, are looking for ways to give back to the community. They
> > > > want a way to contribute and ensure their contribution will be noticed
> > > > and appreciated. What if we had a feature sponsorship program that
> > > > encouraged companies to donate engineering time to filling out needed
> > > > features in Struts?
> > > >
> > > > I imagine it would work like this:
> > > > 1. The Struts community comes up with a short list of desired
> > > > features with high-level specs
> > > > 2. Companies (or individuals) could "sign up" for a feature and
> > > > donate internal engineering time to implementing the feature
> > > > 3. The Struts community would review then commit the feature
> > > > 4. The release notes for that version and perhaps somewhere on the
> > > > website would note who gets credit for the feature
> > > >
> > > > This would help those that want to donate time what features are most
> > > > needed by the community and give them a way to receive recognition for
> > > > their work in a very public way. A key component in this proposal
> > > > is the way credit is given to the work, something that might encourage
> > > > the marketing departments of the respective companies. The list of
> > > > desired features is also important as it ensures their effort will not
> > > > be in vain, and it also implies the support of the Struts dev
> > > > community to work to apply the patch in a timely manner.
> > > >
> > > > Thoughts?
> > > >
> > > > Don
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> James Mitchell
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Fwd: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by James Mitchell <jm...@gmail.com>.
That's a good question. I have always heard this was the case and I think I
remember someone sending out a link in the past, but I don't keep up with
this kind of stuff.
Can anyone on legal point me to such a paragraph? (sorry if this is the
wrong forum for this question)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rob Leland <le...@speakeasy.net>
Date: Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
To: Struts Developers List <de...@struts.apache.org>
James Mitchell wrote:
> I'm inclined to vote down anything mixing Community and Corporate agenda.
> I
> think that's just a bad mix. In fact, the ASF has specific
> rules/guidelines
> with respect to corporate involvement (employment) with too many project
>
>
Do you have that reference ?
leads.
>
> There's a reason that Apache projects are so successful, in one word ...
> "community". I hate it as much as the next guy when movement seems to
> stagnate for weeks/months, but that's never just cause to bring in
> money/free stuff as incentive.
>
> The folks who want to help when there's a prize at the end will be the
> first
> ones to dump your a## when you really need them, but don't have an
> incentive
> to offer.
>
> If Struts (or any project) doesn't have enough volunteers to keep the work
> going, then we have bigger issues.
>
> Just my $0.02!
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Robert Leland <rl...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Don I have a few questions
> >
> > 1) I agree that this contribution has to be valuable to the contributing
> > company
> > both technically and marketing. Back in 2003 when I obtained free
> > IntelliJ
> > licenses from Jetbrains for the Struts
> > Committers all they wanted was acknowledgment on our web page and that
> > was
> > voted down as too commercial.
> > To IntelliJ's credit they still provided the license and later expanded
> > it
> > to all of Apache.
> > How has the Struts PMC changed since then to allow what your proposing ?
> >
> > 2) What if a proposal isn't on the short list of features, however when
> > it
> > is proposed the Struts community
> > its viewed as a useful idea ?
> >
> > 3) What if it turns out that two competing companies have different
> > implementations, which is a great place to be in.
> > Do we need to think this far ahead or using Agile methods do we not
> > want to over design this process initially ?
> >
> >
> > -Rob
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Don Brown wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > As more and more companies start using open source software, many,
> > > like mine, are looking for ways to give back to the community. They
> > > want a way to contribute and ensure their contribution will be noticed
> > > and appreciated. What if we had a feature sponsorship program that
> > > encouraged companies to donate engineering time to filling out needed
> > > features in Struts?
> > >
> > > I imagine it would work like this:
> > > 1. The Struts community comes up with a short list of desired
> > > features with high-level specs
> > > 2. Companies (or individuals) could "sign up" for a feature and
> > > donate internal engineering time to implementing the feature
> > > 3. The Struts community would review then commit the feature
> > > 4. The release notes for that version and perhaps somewhere on the
> > > website would note who gets credit for the feature
> > >
> > > This would help those that want to donate time what features are most
> > > needed by the community and give them a way to receive recognition for
> > > their work in a very public way. A key component in this proposal
> > > is the way credit is given to the work, something that might encourage
> > > the marketing departments of the respective companies. The list of
> > > desired features is also important as it ensures their effort will not
> > > be in vain, and it also implies the support of the Struts dev
> > > community to work to apply the patch in a timely manner.
> > >
> > > Thoughts?
> > >
> > > Don
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
--
James Mitchell
Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Rob Leland <le...@speakeasy.net>.
James Mitchell wrote:
> I'm inclined to vote down anything mixing Community and Corporate agenda. I
> think that's just a bad mix. In fact, the ASF has specific rules/guidelines
> with respect to corporate involvement (employment) with too many project
>
Do you have that reference ?
> leads.
>
> There's a reason that Apache projects are so successful, in one word ...
> "community". I hate it as much as the next guy when movement seems to
> stagnate for weeks/months, but that's never just cause to bring in
> money/free stuff as incentive.
>
> The folks who want to help when there's a prize at the end will be the first
> ones to dump your a## when you really need them, but don't have an incentive
> to offer.
>
> If Struts (or any project) doesn't have enough volunteers to keep the work
> going, then we have bigger issues.
>
> Just my $0.02!
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Robert Leland <rl...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
>> Don I have a few questions
>>
>> 1) I agree that this contribution has to be valuable to the contributing
>> company
>> both technically and marketing. Back in 2003 when I obtained free IntelliJ
>> licenses from Jetbrains for the Struts
>> Committers all they wanted was acknowledgment on our web page and that was
>> voted down as too commercial.
>> To IntelliJ's credit they still provided the license and later expanded it
>> to all of Apache.
>> How has the Struts PMC changed since then to allow what your proposing ?
>>
>> 2) What if a proposal isn't on the short list of features, however when it
>> is proposed the Struts community
>> its viewed as a useful idea ?
>>
>> 3) What if it turns out that two competing companies have different
>> implementations, which is a great place to be in.
>> Do we need to think this far ahead or using Agile methods do we not
>> want to over design this process initially ?
>>
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Don Brown wrote:
>>
>>
>>> As more and more companies start using open source software, many,
>>> like mine, are looking for ways to give back to the community. They
>>> want a way to contribute and ensure their contribution will be noticed
>>> and appreciated. What if we had a feature sponsorship program that
>>> encouraged companies to donate engineering time to filling out needed
>>> features in Struts?
>>>
>>> I imagine it would work like this:
>>> 1. The Struts community comes up with a short list of desired
>>> features with high-level specs
>>> 2. Companies (or individuals) could "sign up" for a feature and
>>> donate internal engineering time to implementing the feature
>>> 3. The Struts community would review then commit the feature
>>> 4. The release notes for that version and perhaps somewhere on the
>>> website would note who gets credit for the feature
>>>
>>> This would help those that want to donate time what features are most
>>> needed by the community and give them a way to receive recognition for
>>> their work in a very public way. A key component in this proposal
>>> is the way credit is given to the work, something that might encourage
>>> the marketing departments of the respective companies. The list of
>>> desired features is also important as it ensures their effort will not
>>> be in vain, and it also implies the support of the Struts dev
>>> community to work to apply the patch in a timely manner.
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Don
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>
>
>
Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Musachy Barroso <mu...@gmail.com>.
Ted said all I had in mind about this, now, none of it goes against
Don's proposal, except maybe point #4 right? If we recognize the
individual as "Wendy from BigCo" it will be on the release notes, so
it will be on the website somewhere. Would that fulfill point #4, or
you meant "somewhere on the website" with more visibility? (@Don).
musachy
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 9:27 AM, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org> wrote:
>
> > The core issue in this proposal is something that has bothered me
> > about Struts for years - we do a poor job giving credit to
> > contributors. I remember this one Open Source project I started
> > playing with that would include a little note of thanks/credit next to
> > a feature in the release notes, something simple like, "Added feature
> > foo. Thanks Wendy for the patch!" Just that little note, a few
> > characters really, did so much to encourage participation and build a
> > community. Community members want to feel like they make a difference
> > and when the only recognition they get is a patch buried in the depths
> > of JIRA or even in a commit no one will ever see, the motivation isn't
> > there.
>
> Following up on what James said, I think this much would be OK so long
> as "Wendy" had filed a ICLA (or a CCLA, if the work was done on
> company time). We already try to do that in the commit logs, and, for
> more substantial contributions, the release notes would be an
> extension of that practice. (The original Apache HTTPD voting rules
> even gave contributors (or
> "authors") a binding vote over something like this!)
>
> But, saying thanks to Wendy's employer might cross the line. One of
> our precepts is that ASF projects are "composed of individuals, and so
> we give the credit to individuals. The farthest we might be able to go
> is to say "Wendy of BigCo, Inc.", if that's how Wendy wanted to be
> described.
>
> And, of course, if "Wendy" continued to make welcome contributions to
> the project, we should consider her for committership, the BigCo
> paycheck notwithstanding. And, if she changes jobs, then she's still a
> committer. BigCo is transparent to us. We don't want their money, we
> want Wendy's brain.
>
> As for BigCo's motivation, it should be the same as anyone else's
> motivation. If BigCo is using our software, then BigCo should want the
> software to be the best that it can be. And it should want that
> regardless of attribution. If BigCo is using our software, then it
> should not be difficult for BigCo to calculate a positive ROI without
> a marketing element. Working with an open source project can eliminate
> or mitigate a good portion of the cost of developing equivalent
> software independently.
>
> To me, the most valuable part of this proposal is not only the list,
> but the specification. Where we really, really suck is planning
> features without actually coding them first :)
>
> -Ted.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
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Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Antonio Petrelli <an...@gmail.com>.
2008/4/8, Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>:
>
> Right, but in this case were talking about the corporations that
> contributors work for.
Sorry, I forgot an entire sentence :-O
I meant, if a contributor helped with the help of a company, then we should
write:
Wendy Windham (FooBar Co.)
with no links, something really simple.
I doubt that a whole company helps, I see the contribution as work done by
individuals, let's show the individuals along with their companies
(obviously if the PRC wants it), even if there are lots of them.
Antonio
Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 12:54 PM, Antonio Petrelli
<an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/4/8, Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>:
>
> >
> > Would be good to clear this with the PRC - I seem to recall a similar
> > discussion where a project was crediting a company for a couple of
> > free licenses and someone from the PRC pointed out that it might upset
> > the official ASF sponsors[1] if they other companies were seen to be
> > getting recognition without donating hard cash.
>
> There are other ways of "donation" than simple cash, and IMHO all
> contributors deserve a mention.
Right, but in this case were talking about the corporations that
contributors work for. Personally I think this is a can of worms, but
if the PRC says its OK then I won't object.
Niall
> For example, take OpenOffice.org, where every patch is "assimilated" into
> the codebase with no credit at all (at least in Apache the contribution is
> recorded somewhere).
> Probably a "Credits" file inside the distribution is enough, or better, a
> page similar to the "Volunteers" page (without all the stories :-) ) could
> show our wish to thank all the people who contribute.
>
> Antonio
>
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Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Antonio Petrelli <an...@gmail.com>.
2008/4/8, Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>:
>
> Would be good to clear this with the PRC - I seem to recall a similar
> discussion where a project was crediting a company for a couple of
> free licenses and someone from the PRC pointed out that it might upset
> the official ASF sponsors[1] if they other companies were seen to be
> getting recognition without donating hard cash.
There are other ways of "donation" than simple cash, and IMHO all
contributors deserve a mention.
For example, take OpenOffice.org, where every patch is "assimilated" into
the codebase with no credit at all (at least in Apache the contribution is
recorded somewhere).
Probably a "Credits" file inside the distribution is enough, or better, a
page similar to the "Volunteers" page (without all the stories :-) ) could
show our wish to thank all the people who contribute.
Antonio
Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org> wrote:
> Exactly - I'm not suggesting we change how we accept contributions at
> all and of course, we would try to give credit to individuals where
> desired, but look at it this way: if IBM donated a server to us, would
> we credit the person who processed the order or the company that
> purchased the computer? Paying someone to develop a feature is a
> significant contribution that should be recognized, IMO, along side
> the individual who performed the work. In addition, as you point out,
> not everything can be traced back to a single individual. For
> example, for a given feature in an Atlassian product, there is
> involvement from probably 6 or 7 people: product manager, project
> manager, UI designer, tech writer, product marketing guy, and the two
> developers that paired on the feature. If a company took their
> donation seriously and brought their resources to bear, I think that
> deserves recognition.
Would be good to clear this with the PRC - I seem to recall a similar
discussion where a project was crediting a company for a couple of
free licenses and someone from the PRC pointed out that it might upset
the official ASF sponsors[1] if they other companies were seen to be
getting recognition without donating hard cash.
http://apache.org/foundation/thanks.html
AIUI Teds on the PRC, so perhaps he can take it to them
Niall
> Don
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:37 PM, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 5:27 AM, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > But, saying thanks to Wendy's employer might cross the line. One of
> > > our precepts is that ASF projects are "composed of individuals, and so
> > > we give the credit to individuals. The farthest we might be able to go
> > > is to say "Wendy of BigCo, Inc.", if that's how Wendy wanted to be
> > > described.
> >
> > Unless, of course, most or all of the feature was developed outside of
> > the project, and then donated in bulk, under a CCLA (as James
> > implied). Of course, in that case, we'd then have to pass the
> > contribution through the incubator, to vet the IP.
> >
> > Of course, we'd have to reserve the right to reject the contribution
> > if the code was not up to our standards. (In fact, back in the day,
> > the first contribution by an paid IBM engineer to Apache HTTPD was
> > rejected!).
> >
> >
> >
> > -Ted.
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
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>
>
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Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org>.
Exactly - I'm not suggesting we change how we accept contributions at
all and of course, we would try to give credit to individuals where
desired, but look at it this way: if IBM donated a server to us, would
we credit the person who processed the order or the company that
purchased the computer? Paying someone to develop a feature is a
significant contribution that should be recognized, IMO, along side
the individual who performed the work. In addition, as you point out,
not everything can be traced back to a single individual. For
example, for a given feature in an Atlassian product, there is
involvement from probably 6 or 7 people: product manager, project
manager, UI designer, tech writer, product marketing guy, and the two
developers that paired on the feature. If a company took their
donation seriously and brought their resources to bear, I think that
deserves recognition.
Don
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:37 PM, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 5:27 AM, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> > But, saying thanks to Wendy's employer might cross the line. One of
> > our precepts is that ASF projects are "composed of individuals, and so
> > we give the credit to individuals. The farthest we might be able to go
> > is to say "Wendy of BigCo, Inc.", if that's how Wendy wanted to be
> > described.
>
> Unless, of course, most or all of the feature was developed outside of
> the project, and then donated in bulk, under a CCLA (as James
> implied). Of course, in that case, we'd then have to pass the
> contribution through the incubator, to vet the IP.
>
> Of course, we'd have to reserve the right to reject the contribution
> if the code was not up to our standards. (In fact, back in the day,
> the first contribution by an paid IBM engineer to Apache HTTPD was
> rejected!).
>
>
>
> -Ted.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
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Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 5:27 AM, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> But, saying thanks to Wendy's employer might cross the line. One of
> our precepts is that ASF projects are "composed of individuals, and so
> we give the credit to individuals. The farthest we might be able to go
> is to say "Wendy of BigCo, Inc.", if that's how Wendy wanted to be
> described.
Unless, of course, most or all of the feature was developed outside of
the project, and then donated in bulk, under a CCLA (as James
implied). Of course, in that case, we'd then have to pass the
contribution through the incubator, to vet the IP.
Of course, we'd have to reserve the right to reject the contribution
if the code was not up to our standards. (In fact, back in the day,
the first contribution by an paid IBM engineer to Apache HTTPD was
rejected!).
-Ted.
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Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org> wrote:
> The core issue in this proposal is something that has bothered me
> about Struts for years - we do a poor job giving credit to
> contributors. I remember this one Open Source project I started
> playing with that would include a little note of thanks/credit next to
> a feature in the release notes, something simple like, "Added feature
> foo. Thanks Wendy for the patch!" Just that little note, a few
> characters really, did so much to encourage participation and build a
> community. Community members want to feel like they make a difference
> and when the only recognition they get is a patch buried in the depths
> of JIRA or even in a commit no one will ever see, the motivation isn't
> there.
Following up on what James said, I think this much would be OK so long
as "Wendy" had filed a ICLA (or a CCLA, if the work was done on
company time). We already try to do that in the commit logs, and, for
more substantial contributions, the release notes would be an
extension of that practice. (The original Apache HTTPD voting rules
even gave contributors (or
"authors") a binding vote over something like this!)
But, saying thanks to Wendy's employer might cross the line. One of
our precepts is that ASF projects are "composed of individuals, and so
we give the credit to individuals. The farthest we might be able to go
is to say "Wendy of BigCo, Inc.", if that's how Wendy wanted to be
described.
And, of course, if "Wendy" continued to make welcome contributions to
the project, we should consider her for committership, the BigCo
paycheck notwithstanding. And, if she changes jobs, then she's still a
committer. BigCo is transparent to us. We don't want their money, we
want Wendy's brain.
As for BigCo's motivation, it should be the same as anyone else's
motivation. If BigCo is using our software, then BigCo should want the
software to be the best that it can be. And it should want that
regardless of attribution. If BigCo is using our software, then it
should not be difficult for BigCo to calculate a positive ROI without
a marketing element. Working with an open source project can eliminate
or mitigate a good portion of the cost of developing equivalent
software independently.
To me, the most valuable part of this proposal is not only the list,
but the specification. Where we really, really suck is planning
features without actually coding them first :)
-Ted.
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Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by James Mitchell <jm...@gmail.com>.
Ok, a couple of things here.
First, that's not exactly what I said. I wasn't talking about recognition.
I was talking about the use of financial incentives as motivation.
I'm all for recognition. If you remember a few years back ([0] and [1]),
the ASF decided we needed to strip the @author tags from all sources. I
didn't like it then and I don't like it now. I understand the reasoning,
but I still don't like it. I think having @author tags is a great way to
show recognition to those deserving folks who step up and help out.
[0] http://www.webweavertech.com/ovidiu/weblog/archives/000319.html
[1] http://www.webweavertech.com/costin/archives/000320.html
Second, as for corporation composition, you said exactly what I was trying
to. Thanks!
I guess what I'm trying to say is that some people will take issue with an
"Open Source community" recognizing someone's effort that was bought and
paid for by some Business Entity (without having signed a CCLA). I think
that could attract the wrong crowd. Given such a scenario, if the money
dries up, so does the help? That's nuts.
Now, of course there are always exceptions. I mean, if someone offered me a
job to work on Struts full-time, I'd probably jump on it. But that offer
has never come, and yet, I'm still here, putting in what small amount of
time I can.
It's entirely possible that when word gets out that people are getting paid
to work on Struts, a few companies might call into question who has the
legal rights to the source code. Irrespective of what the ASL says.
As well, and I'm not sure how others feel, but trying to explain to a
potential client or to an existing employer that Struts 2 is the way to go
is easy. However, trying to explain (at the same time) why they shouldn't
pay attention to the fact that "their fiercest competitor is listed in the
attribution section and on the website" is not a battle I wish to take on
right now.
But again, we are a community, so whatever is decided, I will go with it.
Can we make this conditional on CCLAs and CLAs? That would probably ease
any concern from the ASF as well.
Again, just my $0.02
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org> wrote:
> I think you are assuming the community isn't composed of Corporations,
> when in fact, they play an important part in almost every successful
> Open Source project. From providing hardware to sponsoring
> conferences to paying developers to work on projects, companies play a
> critical role in the community. Apache is concerned, and rightly so,
> that a single company may gain too much control in a project, but
> Apache just plain wouldn't exist without corporate support. One of
> the core aspects of the ASF, the Apache Public License, encourages
> corporate acceptance of Open Source projects.
>
> The core issue in this proposal is something that has bothered me
> about Struts for years - we do a poor job giving credit to
> contributors. I remember this one Open Source project I started
> playing with that would include a little note of thanks/credit next to
> a feature in the release notes, something simple like, "Added feature
> foo. Thanks Wendy for the patch!" Just that little note, a few
> characters really, did so much to encourage participation and build a
> community. Community members want to feel like they make a difference
> and when the only recognition they get is a patch buried in the depths
> of JIRA or even in a commit no one will ever see, the motivation isn't
> there.
>
> This proposal gives us an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone
> - put in place a sane, community-building attribution system, and give
> companies that want to give back to the community a clear path to get
> involved. The ASF and Struts, in particular, has always been about
> the community - isn't it time we started recognizing that?
>
> Don
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 1:49 AM, James Mitchell <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm inclined to vote down anything mixing Community and Corporate
> agenda. I
> > think that's just a bad mix. In fact, the ASF has specific
> rules/guidelines
> > with respect to corporate involvement (employment) with too many
> project
> > leads.
> >
> > There's a reason that Apache projects are so successful, in one word
> ...
> > "community". I hate it as much as the next guy when movement seems to
> > stagnate for weeks/months, but that's never just cause to bring in
> > money/free stuff as incentive.
> >
> > The folks who want to help when there's a prize at the end will be the
> first
> > ones to dump your a## when you really need them, but don't have an
> incentive
> > to offer.
> >
> > If Struts (or any project) doesn't have enough volunteers to keep the
> work
> > going, then we have bigger issues.
> >
> > Just my $0.02!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Robert Leland <rl...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Don I have a few questions
> > >
> > > 1) I agree that this contribution has to be valuable to the
> contributing
> > > company
> > > both technically and marketing. Back in 2003 when I obtained free
> IntelliJ
> > > licenses from Jetbrains for the Struts
> > > Committers all they wanted was acknowledgment on our web page and
> that was
> > > voted down as too commercial.
> > > To IntelliJ's credit they still provided the license and later
> expanded it
> > > to all of Apache.
> > > How has the Struts PMC changed since then to allow what your
> proposing ?
> > >
> > > 2) What if a proposal isn't on the short list of features, however
> when it
> > > is proposed the Struts community
> > > its viewed as a useful idea ?
> > >
> > > 3) What if it turns out that two competing companies have different
> > > implementations, which is a great place to be in.
> > > Do we need to think this far ahead or using Agile methods do we
> not
> > > want to over design this process initially ?
> > >
> > >
> > > -Rob
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Don Brown wrote:
> > >
> > > > As more and more companies start using open source software, many,
> > > > like mine, are looking for ways to give back to the community.
> They
> > > > want a way to contribute and ensure their contribution will be
> noticed
> > > > and appreciated. What if we had a feature sponsorship program that
> > > > encouraged companies to donate engineering time to filling out
> needed
> > > > features in Struts?
> > > >
> > > > I imagine it would work like this:
> > > > 1. The Struts community comes up with a short list of desired
> > > > features with high-level specs
> > > > 2. Companies (or individuals) could "sign up" for a feature and
> > > > donate internal engineering time to implementing the feature
> > > > 3. The Struts community would review then commit the feature
> > > > 4. The release notes for that version and perhaps somewhere on the
> > > > website would note who gets credit for the feature
> > > >
> > > > This would help those that want to donate time what features are
> most
> > > > needed by the community and give them a way to receive recognition
> for
> > > > their work in a very public way. A key component in this
> proposal
> > > > is the way credit is given to the work, something that might
> encourage
> > > > the marketing departments of the respective companies. The list of
> > > > desired features is also important as it ensures their effort will
> not
> > > > be in vain, and it also implies the support of the Struts dev
> > > > community to work to apply the patch in a timely manner.
> > > >
> > > > Thoughts?
> > > >
> > > > Don
> > > >
> > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Mitchell
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
--
James Mitchell
Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
> Apache just plain wouldn't exist without corporate support.
And a lot of corporations wouldn't exist without our software to run
their business :)
-T.
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Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org>.
I think you are assuming the community isn't composed of Corporations,
when in fact, they play an important part in almost every successful
Open Source project. From providing hardware to sponsoring
conferences to paying developers to work on projects, companies play a
critical role in the community. Apache is concerned, and rightly so,
that a single company may gain too much control in a project, but
Apache just plain wouldn't exist without corporate support. One of
the core aspects of the ASF, the Apache Public License, encourages
corporate acceptance of Open Source projects.
The core issue in this proposal is something that has bothered me
about Struts for years - we do a poor job giving credit to
contributors. I remember this one Open Source project I started
playing with that would include a little note of thanks/credit next to
a feature in the release notes, something simple like, "Added feature
foo. Thanks Wendy for the patch!" Just that little note, a few
characters really, did so much to encourage participation and build a
community. Community members want to feel like they make a difference
and when the only recognition they get is a patch buried in the depths
of JIRA or even in a commit no one will ever see, the motivation isn't
there.
This proposal gives us an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone
- put in place a sane, community-building attribution system, and give
companies that want to give back to the community a clear path to get
involved. The ASF and Struts, in particular, has always been about
the community - isn't it time we started recognizing that?
Don
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 1:49 AM, James Mitchell <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm inclined to vote down anything mixing Community and Corporate agenda. I
> think that's just a bad mix. In fact, the ASF has specific rules/guidelines
> with respect to corporate involvement (employment) with too many project
> leads.
>
> There's a reason that Apache projects are so successful, in one word ...
> "community". I hate it as much as the next guy when movement seems to
> stagnate for weeks/months, but that's never just cause to bring in
> money/free stuff as incentive.
>
> The folks who want to help when there's a prize at the end will be the first
> ones to dump your a## when you really need them, but don't have an incentive
> to offer.
>
> If Struts (or any project) doesn't have enough volunteers to keep the work
> going, then we have bigger issues.
>
> Just my $0.02!
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Robert Leland <rl...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Don I have a few questions
> >
> > 1) I agree that this contribution has to be valuable to the contributing
> > company
> > both technically and marketing. Back in 2003 when I obtained free IntelliJ
> > licenses from Jetbrains for the Struts
> > Committers all they wanted was acknowledgment on our web page and that was
> > voted down as too commercial.
> > To IntelliJ's credit they still provided the license and later expanded it
> > to all of Apache.
> > How has the Struts PMC changed since then to allow what your proposing ?
> >
> > 2) What if a proposal isn't on the short list of features, however when it
> > is proposed the Struts community
> > its viewed as a useful idea ?
> >
> > 3) What if it turns out that two competing companies have different
> > implementations, which is a great place to be in.
> > Do we need to think this far ahead or using Agile methods do we not
> > want to over design this process initially ?
> >
> >
> > -Rob
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Don Brown wrote:
> >
> > > As more and more companies start using open source software, many,
> > > like mine, are looking for ways to give back to the community. They
> > > want a way to contribute and ensure their contribution will be noticed
> > > and appreciated. What if we had a feature sponsorship program that
> > > encouraged companies to donate engineering time to filling out needed
> > > features in Struts?
> > >
> > > I imagine it would work like this:
> > > 1. The Struts community comes up with a short list of desired
> > > features with high-level specs
> > > 2. Companies (or individuals) could "sign up" for a feature and
> > > donate internal engineering time to implementing the feature
> > > 3. The Struts community would review then commit the feature
> > > 4. The release notes for that version and perhaps somewhere on the
> > > website would note who gets credit for the feature
> > >
> > > This would help those that want to donate time what features are most
> > > needed by the community and give them a way to receive recognition for
> > > their work in a very public way. A key component in this proposal
> > > is the way credit is given to the work, something that might encourage
> > > the marketing departments of the respective companies. The list of
> > > desired features is also important as it ensures their effort will not
> > > be in vain, and it also implies the support of the Struts dev
> > > community to work to apply the patch in a timely manner.
> > >
> > > Thoughts?
> > >
> > > Don
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> James Mitchell
>
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Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Robert Leland <rl...@apache.org>.
I will tell you this, I hate overt marketing.
When I go to the Movies and they start playing commercials, not
previews, I'll close my eyes, put my fingers in my ears or walk out to
take a break.
My wife laughs at me since her background is Marketing Research and says
it doesn't bother her. So far she hasn't threatened
to not go out with me :)!
Seriously, I have occasionally wondered if there is a better balance
model for OSS projects. On one hand there is Spring where they actually
are able to pay their core developers based on proceeds from
training/certification. On the other hand we have
a mostly community/voluntary based development such as Struts/Apache. I
am not sure where that balance should lie or if it should change.
Nor do I feel I have the right to even suggest what it should be. Though
I think its a healthy question to ask every now and then.
How can Struts continue to grow and maintain an identity that active
committers and the active user community can live with.
Related to this topic, and one that would be interesting is to find out
what the turnover rate is between different OSS projects are.
Is there a correlation between that and the development/contribution
model they use ? Struts has been lucky in that some of the original
committers
such as Martin Cooper and Ted Husted still stay involved. Still there
has been a quite a number of committers over the years,
and I wonder how that compares to other projects that have also been
successful.
-Rob
James Mitchell wrote:
> I'm inclined to vote down anything mixing Community and Corporate agenda. I
> think that's just a bad mix. In fact, the ASF has specific rules/guidelines
> with respect to corporate involvement (employment) with too many project
> leads.
>
> There's a reason that Apache projects are so successful, in one word ...
> "community". I hate it as much as the next guy when movement seems to
> stagnate for weeks/months, but that's never just cause to bring in
> money/free stuff as incentive.
>
> The folks who want to help when there's a prize at the end will be the first
> ones to dump your a## when you really need them, but don't have an incentive
> to offer.
>
> If Struts (or any project) doesn't have enough volunteers to keep the work
> going, then we have bigger issues.
>
> Just my $0.02!
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Robert Leland <rl...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
>> Don I have a few questions
>>
>> 1) I agree that this contribution has to be valuable to the contributing
>> company
>> both technically and marketing. Back in 2003 when I obtained free IntelliJ
>> licenses from Jetbrains for the Struts
>> Committers all they wanted was acknowledgment on our web page and that was
>> voted down as too commercial.
>> To IntelliJ's credit they still provided the license and later expanded it
>> to all of Apache.
>> How has the Struts PMC changed since then to allow what your proposing ?
>>
>> 2) What if a proposal isn't on the short list of features, however when it
>> is proposed the Struts community
>> its viewed as a useful idea ?
>>
>> 3) What if it turns out that two competing companies have different
>> implementations, which is a great place to be in.
>> Do we need to think this far ahead or using Agile methods do we not
>> want to over design this process initially ?
>>
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Don Brown wrote:
>>
>>
>>> As more and more companies start using open source software, many,
>>> like mine, are looking for ways to give back to the community. They
>>> want a way to contribute and ensure their contribution will be noticed
>>> and appreciated. What if we had a feature sponsorship program that
>>> encouraged companies to donate engineering time to filling out needed
>>> features in Struts?
>>>
>>> I imagine it would work like this:
>>> 1. The Struts community comes up with a short list of desired
>>> features with high-level specs
>>> 2. Companies (or individuals) could "sign up" for a feature and
>>> donate internal engineering time to implementing the feature
>>> 3. The Struts community would review then commit the feature
>>> 4. The release notes for that version and perhaps somewhere on the
>>> website would note who gets credit for the feature
>>>
>>> This would help those that want to donate time what features are most
>>> needed by the community and give them a way to receive recognition for
>>> their work in a very public way. A key component in this proposal
>>> is the way credit is given to the work, something that might encourage
>>> the marketing departments of the respective companies. The list of
>>> desired features is also important as it ensures their effort will not
>>> be in vain, and it also implies the support of the Struts dev
>>> community to work to apply the patch in a timely manner.
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Don
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Ralf Fischer <th...@googlemail.com>.
Hello everybody,
I tend to agree with James, ASF is a non-profit organization and no
advertisement platform for corporations, even if they want to
contribute, others do so and don't ask for anything in return. In the
how-to-help-FAQ [1] on the homepage is a separate paragraph which
states how corporations may support struts by donating time of their
team members to help fixing bugs or creating patches to open JIRA
issues, or patch up the documentations or HOW-TOs. And look, with JIRA
there is a pretty good tool where anybody can sign up for issues
wanted to be fixed :-)
IF corporations want to donate money or anything else they maybe can
donate hardware to the ASF, give-away software licenses like JetBrains
does, or sponsor events like the ApacheCon [2], where they'll even get
their logo on the homepage.
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 6:48 PM, Al Sutton <al...@alsutton.com> wrote:
> The closer award I looked after was, imho, the best way my company could
> give back to the S2 project. By awarding it to the person who closed the
> most JIRA issues it meant that the work wasn't "tainted" by my companies
> agenda, it provided a tangible reward to those willing to work hard on the
> project, and it (hopefully) encouraged others to get stuck in.
>
> If companies aren't willing to create a general prize, we could always
> encourage "bug bounties" where companies can offer rewards for fixing
> specific problems or adding specific features they want.
Wouldn't this "taint" the work as being on a company agenda? They, can
easily create a JIRA and then promote it excessively. I think we
cannot judge in general, as this entirely depends on the feature which
is promoted, but I don't see this unconcerned. Again, to quote James,
if volunteers don't step in on their own, there's a different problem.
Bye,
-Ralf
[1] http://struts.apache.org/helping.html#corp
[2] http://apachecon.com/
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Mitchell" <jm...@gmail.com>
> To: "Struts Developers List" <de...@struts.apache.org>
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 4:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
>
>
>
>
>
> > I'm inclined to vote down anything mixing Community and Corporate agenda.
> I
> > think that's just a bad mix. In fact, the ASF has specific
> rules/guidelines
> > with respect to corporate involvement (employment) with too many project
> > leads.
> >
> > There's a reason that Apache projects are so successful, in one word ...
> > "community". I hate it as much as the next guy when movement seems to
> > stagnate for weeks/months, but that's never just cause to bring in
> > money/free stuff as incentive.
> >
> > The folks who want to help when there's a prize at the end will be the
> first
> > ones to dump your a## when you really need them, but don't have an
> incentive
> > to offer.
> >
> > If Struts (or any project) doesn't have enough volunteers to keep the work
> > going, then we have bigger issues.
> >
> > Just my $0.02!
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Robert Leland <rl...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Don I have a few questions
> > >
> > > 1) I agree that this contribution has to be valuable to the contributing
> > > company
> > > both technically and marketing. Back in 2003 when I obtained free
> IntelliJ
> > > licenses from Jetbrains for the Struts
> > > Committers all they wanted was acknowledgment on our web page and that
> was
> > > voted down as too commercial.
> > > To IntelliJ's credit they still provided the license and later expanded
> it
> > > to all of Apache.
> > > How has the Struts PMC changed since then to allow what your proposing ?
> > >
> > > 2) What if a proposal isn't on the short list of features, however when
> it
> > > is proposed the Struts community
> > > its viewed as a useful idea ?
> > >
> > > 3) What if it turns out that two competing companies have different
> > > implementations, which is a great place to be in.
> > > Do we need to think this far ahead or using Agile methods do we not
> > > want to over design this process initially ?
> > >
> > >
> > > -Rob
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Don Brown wrote:
> > >
> > > > As more and more companies start using open source software, many,
> > > > like mine, are looking for ways to give back to the community. They
> > > > want a way to contribute and ensure their contribution will be noticed
> > > > and appreciated. What if we had a feature sponsorship program that
> > > > encouraged companies to donate engineering time to filling out needed
> > > > features in Struts?
> > > >
> > > > I imagine it would work like this:
> > > > 1. The Struts community comes up with a short list of desired
> > > > features with high-level specs
> > > > 2. Companies (or individuals) could "sign up" for a feature and
> > > > donate internal engineering time to implementing the feature
> > > > 3. The Struts community would review then commit the feature
> > > > 4. The release notes for that version and perhaps somewhere on the
> > > > website would note who gets credit for the feature
> > > >
> > > > This would help those that want to donate time what features are most
> > > > needed by the community and give them a way to receive recognition for
> > > > their work in a very public way. A key component in this proposal
> > > > is the way credit is given to the work, something that might encourage
> > > > the marketing departments of the respective companies. The list of
> > > > desired features is also important as it ensures their effort will not
> > > > be in vain, and it also implies the support of the Struts dev
> > > > community to work to apply the patch in a timely manner.
> > > >
> > > > Thoughts?
> > > >
> > > > Don
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Mitchell
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
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Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Al Sutton <al...@alsutton.com>.
The closer award I looked after was, imho, the best way my company could
give back to the S2 project. By awarding it to the person who closed the
most JIRA issues it meant that the work wasn't "tainted" by my companies
agenda, it provided a tangible reward to those willing to work hard on the
project, and it (hopefully) encouraged others to get stuck in.
If companies aren't willing to create a general prize, we could always
encourage "bug bounties" where companies can offer rewards for fixing
specific problems or adding specific features they want.
Al.
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Mitchell" <jm...@gmail.com>
To: "Struts Developers List" <de...@struts.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
> I'm inclined to vote down anything mixing Community and Corporate agenda.
> I
> think that's just a bad mix. In fact, the ASF has specific
> rules/guidelines
> with respect to corporate involvement (employment) with too many project
> leads.
>
> There's a reason that Apache projects are so successful, in one word ...
> "community". I hate it as much as the next guy when movement seems to
> stagnate for weeks/months, but that's never just cause to bring in
> money/free stuff as incentive.
>
> The folks who want to help when there's a prize at the end will be the
> first
> ones to dump your a## when you really need them, but don't have an
> incentive
> to offer.
>
> If Struts (or any project) doesn't have enough volunteers to keep the work
> going, then we have bigger issues.
>
> Just my $0.02!
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Robert Leland <rl...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Don I have a few questions
>>
>> 1) I agree that this contribution has to be valuable to the contributing
>> company
>> both technically and marketing. Back in 2003 when I obtained free
>> IntelliJ
>> licenses from Jetbrains for the Struts
>> Committers all they wanted was acknowledgment on our web page and that
>> was
>> voted down as too commercial.
>> To IntelliJ's credit they still provided the license and later expanded
>> it
>> to all of Apache.
>> How has the Struts PMC changed since then to allow what your proposing ?
>>
>> 2) What if a proposal isn't on the short list of features, however when
>> it
>> is proposed the Struts community
>> its viewed as a useful idea ?
>>
>> 3) What if it turns out that two competing companies have different
>> implementations, which is a great place to be in.
>> Do we need to think this far ahead or using Agile methods do we not
>> want to over design this process initially ?
>>
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Don Brown wrote:
>>
>> > As more and more companies start using open source software, many,
>> > like mine, are looking for ways to give back to the community. They
>> > want a way to contribute and ensure their contribution will be noticed
>> > and appreciated. What if we had a feature sponsorship program that
>> > encouraged companies to donate engineering time to filling out needed
>> > features in Struts?
>> >
>> > I imagine it would work like this:
>> > 1. The Struts community comes up with a short list of desired
>> > features with high-level specs
>> > 2. Companies (or individuals) could "sign up" for a feature and
>> > donate internal engineering time to implementing the feature
>> > 3. The Struts community would review then commit the feature
>> > 4. The release notes for that version and perhaps somewhere on the
>> > website would note who gets credit for the feature
>> >
>> > This would help those that want to donate time what features are most
>> > needed by the community and give them a way to receive recognition for
>> > their work in a very public way. A key component in this proposal
>> > is the way credit is given to the work, something that might encourage
>> > the marketing departments of the respective companies. The list of
>> > desired features is also important as it ensures their effort will not
>> > be in vain, and it also implies the support of the Struts dev
>> > community to work to apply the patch in a timely manner.
>> >
>> > Thoughts?
>> >
>> > Don
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> James Mitchell
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by James Mitchell <jm...@gmail.com>.
I'm inclined to vote down anything mixing Community and Corporate agenda. I
think that's just a bad mix. In fact, the ASF has specific rules/guidelines
with respect to corporate involvement (employment) with too many project
leads.
There's a reason that Apache projects are so successful, in one word ...
"community". I hate it as much as the next guy when movement seems to
stagnate for weeks/months, but that's never just cause to bring in
money/free stuff as incentive.
The folks who want to help when there's a prize at the end will be the first
ones to dump your a## when you really need them, but don't have an incentive
to offer.
If Struts (or any project) doesn't have enough volunteers to keep the work
going, then we have bigger issues.
Just my $0.02!
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Robert Leland <rl...@apache.org> wrote:
> Don I have a few questions
>
> 1) I agree that this contribution has to be valuable to the contributing
> company
> both technically and marketing. Back in 2003 when I obtained free IntelliJ
> licenses from Jetbrains for the Struts
> Committers all they wanted was acknowledgment on our web page and that was
> voted down as too commercial.
> To IntelliJ's credit they still provided the license and later expanded it
> to all of Apache.
> How has the Struts PMC changed since then to allow what your proposing ?
>
> 2) What if a proposal isn't on the short list of features, however when it
> is proposed the Struts community
> its viewed as a useful idea ?
>
> 3) What if it turns out that two competing companies have different
> implementations, which is a great place to be in.
> Do we need to think this far ahead or using Agile methods do we not
> want to over design this process initially ?
>
>
> -Rob
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Don Brown wrote:
>
> > As more and more companies start using open source software, many,
> > like mine, are looking for ways to give back to the community. They
> > want a way to contribute and ensure their contribution will be noticed
> > and appreciated. What if we had a feature sponsorship program that
> > encouraged companies to donate engineering time to filling out needed
> > features in Struts?
> >
> > I imagine it would work like this:
> > 1. The Struts community comes up with a short list of desired
> > features with high-level specs
> > 2. Companies (or individuals) could "sign up" for a feature and
> > donate internal engineering time to implementing the feature
> > 3. The Struts community would review then commit the feature
> > 4. The release notes for that version and perhaps somewhere on the
> > website would note who gets credit for the feature
> >
> > This would help those that want to donate time what features are most
> > needed by the community and give them a way to receive recognition for
> > their work in a very public way. A key component in this proposal
> > is the way credit is given to the work, something that might encourage
> > the marketing departments of the respective companies. The list of
> > desired features is also important as it ensures their effort will not
> > be in vain, and it also implies the support of the Struts dev
> > community to work to apply the patch in a timely manner.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Don
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
James Mitchell
Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Robert Leland <rl...@apache.org>.
Don I have a few questions
1) I agree that this contribution has to be valuable to the contributing
company
both technically and marketing. Back in 2003 when I obtained free
IntelliJ licenses from Jetbrains for the Struts
Committers all they wanted was acknowledgment on our web page and that
was voted down as too commercial.
To IntelliJ's credit they still provided the license and later expanded
it to all of Apache.
How has the Struts PMC changed since then to allow what your proposing ?
2) What if a proposal isn't on the short list of features, however when
it is proposed the Struts community
its viewed as a useful idea ?
3) What if it turns out that two competing companies have different
implementations, which is a great place to be in.
Do we need to think this far ahead or using Agile methods do we not
want to over design this process initially ?
-Rob
Don Brown wrote:
> As more and more companies start using open source software, many,
> like mine, are looking for ways to give back to the community. They
> want a way to contribute and ensure their contribution will be noticed
> and appreciated. What if we had a feature sponsorship program that
> encouraged companies to donate engineering time to filling out needed
> features in Struts?
>
> I imagine it would work like this:
> 1. The Struts community comes up with a short list of desired
> features with high-level specs
> 2. Companies (or individuals) could "sign up" for a feature and
> donate internal engineering time to implementing the feature
> 3. The Struts community would review then commit the feature
> 4. The release notes for that version and perhaps somewhere on the
> website would note who gets credit for the feature
>
> This would help those that want to donate time what features are most
> needed by the community and give them a way to receive recognition for
> their work in a very public way. A key component in this proposal
> is the way credit is given to the work, something that might encourage
> the marketing departments of the respective companies. The list of
> desired features is also important as it ensures their effort will not
> be in vain, and it also implies the support of the Struts dev
> community to work to apply the patch in a timely manner.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Don
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
>
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Re: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Philip Luppens <ph...@gmail.com>.
On 4/7/08, Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org> wrote:
> [snip]
>
> Thoughts?
>
Sounds good, if you can create a good list (I guess you could pick
them of the 'if I had a 1000 hours to give ..'), and find a way to
sign up for it, and give credit back where credit is due. Also, if
they have something they have developed, or something they want to
develop, just let them contact the list, and ask for the person
working in a particular field (eg. Musachy for Dojo integration,
Nils-Helge for portlets, ..) to see if they can support them in any
way.
I would also find it very nice if a company could just send us an
email with someone to contact to take care of a particular
integration. Seeing how we have some troubles with Websphere, I would
for example, appreciate it if IBM came around and said: "Here are the
contact details for J. Smith - if there's a question or a problem
regarding Struts on Websphere, just forward it to him, and he'll take
care of it (for free - not for a 35 hour support contract ..)". Or at
least work with us to find a solution. Maybe they could even sponsor
someone to work on the docs or user mailing list (although I guess
consultancy companies would regard that as shooting in their own
foot).
Seeing how your employer already supports the OS world, I think we
could only wish other companies would show the same level of support.
If I were a milionaire, I'd pay hire the three key devs and have them
work on Struts 2, and find a couple of IDE devs to work on plugins for
both Eclipse and IntelliJ (or NB).
Note: since I'm not actually a millionaire, I can only guess what I
would be thinking if I were one. It just as likely could be something
like 'Meh, screw you guys, I'm off to St. Tropez with a bunch of
bikini models'. Which would explain the absence of any sponsored key
devs today.
- Phil
--
Software Architect - Hydrodesk
"We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand."
- Randy Pausch
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RE: Feature sponsorship proposal
Posted by Bob Tiernay <bt...@hotmail.com>.
Great idea! Anything that propels s2 development is a great initiative :)> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 23:08:17 +1000> From: mrdon@twdata.org> To: dev@struts.apache.org> Subject: Feature sponsorship proposal> > As more and more companies start using open source software, many,> like mine, are looking for ways to give back to the community. They> want a way to contribute and ensure their contribution will be noticed> and appreciated. What if we had a feature sponsorship program that> encouraged companies to donate engineering time to filling out needed> features in Struts?> > I imagine it would work like this:> 1. The Struts community comes up with a short list of desired> features with high-level specs> 2. Companies (or individuals) could "sign up" for a feature and> donate internal engineering time to implementing the feature> 3. The Struts community would review then commit the feature> 4. The release notes for that version and perhaps somewhere on the> website would note who gets credit for the feature> > This would help those that want to donate time what features are most> needed by the community and give them a way to receive recognition for> their work in a very public way. A key component in this proposal> is the way credit is given to the work, something that might encourage> the marketing departments of the respective companies. The list of> desired features is also important as it ensures their effort will not> be in vain, and it also implies the support of the Struts dev> community to work to apply the patch in a timely manner.> > Thoughts?> > Don> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org>
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