Re: Lenya may start using Forrest Plugins

[Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>]

El mar, 30-11-2004 a las 18:16, Ross Gardler escribió:
> Antonio Gallardo wrote:
> > 2-Lenya is the "content manager". On the other hand, Forrest can be viewed
> > as a content generator.
> 
> I see it differently, Forrest is a content publisher, it does not 
> generate the content only a representation of the content.
> 

That is quite tricky here. Forrest is both a content and presentation
framework. Forrest is not only publishing content but also is able to
work with different input formats.

Forrest provids tools to create and present content. Forrest is not
providing tools to manage content. This can be done by e.g. lenya cms.

That makes 
lenya = content manager
forrest = content creator & representation

> > The content generated by Forrest must be managed
> > by Lenya.
> 
> For me Lenya is a tool for content generation (driven by the user).
> 
> Lenya = excellent content managment
> Forrest = excellent publishing engine
> 
> Lenya + Forrest = Killer App
> 

That is a clear cut. I really would like to see that in practise, but
yourself have e.g. started a content generation plugin (HtmlArea).

IMO everything regarding the Mgt. (versioning, workflow, rights, ...)
should be done by lenya the rest by forrest. 

> > In that way, we need to "attach" Forrest to Lenya and no the
> > oposite.
> 
> This is just semantics, it is best for us to steer away from such 
> terminology as it will only generate (probably unspoken) arguments about 
> which is the most important part. Lenya and Forrest both do vital and 
> different jobs.
> 

Yeah, I agree, but still we have to find a way to unit them. IMO Lenya
should support forrest plugins and capsulate all existing functionality
into plugins. The only problem is who is going to do that and how can we
do it.

> > That means we need to develop some tools that Lenya will use to
> > "know how" call the tools and Forrest need to provide a support for this
> > tools called by Lenya.
> 
> Forrest is driven, in its entirety, from URI requests. There is no need 
> for Forrest to provide any additional support (pending further 
> experimentation of course).
> 

True, but Lenya as well is URI request based. That makes them two
different controller for one uri. We need to define how the interaction
between the two has to work. e.g. Lenya has authoring/live/admin
views,... 

> > 3-Forrest need to be able to generate only a desired document. Lenya will
> > "tell" Forrest wich one by running the forrest tools.
> 
> It already does, just request the document you want (for example 
> http://localhost:8888/mydoc.pdf or http://localhost:8888/mydoc.html)
> 

? in lenya or in forrest? 

The other thing is that I would like *one* distribution and not two or
three seperated (lenya *and* cocoon *and* forrest)

> > 4-From Lenya can be posible to call Forrest in the same way as we call use
> > case. Here Flowscript can play an important role.
> 
> (I don't know what you mean by "call use case", but in responding to the 
> flowscript comment I say - Too complicated, just make a request to a URI 
> at the appropriate place in a controlling sitemap.

The use case is based on lenya. We are speaking in use cases.

> 
> > 5-An interesting point to be solved is how to merge the Lenya "sitetree"
> > with Forrest site.xml and tabs.xml. 
> 
> Write a Forrest plugin to generate site.xml and tabs.xml from sitetree 
> (see IMSManifest plugin as an example, this creates site.xml and 
> tabs.xml from an IMS Manifest file).
> 

or define a standard that can be used by both projects. ;-)

> > Another posible solution is a
> > synchronization of all this files or perhaps we can "forget about the tabs
> > and site in the beggining and let lenya manage it. I am not sure if this
> > will be more easy or complicated. I am also thinking that another
> > posibility to include in this point the "linkmap.html" that forrest
> > currently generate.
> 
> It seems to me that in all of your points you are thinking of Forrest 
> running in a static mode, switch your thinking to Forrest running in a 
> dynamic mode and everything becomes much easier (interestingly this is 
> where you started by saying Forrest and Lenya can run in the same Cocoon 
> instance).
> 

Yeah, Ross is right, but that is where everthing starts to be
complicated. ;-)

> 
> >                                 -- 0 --
> > 
> > The other posible solution is import into Lenya some forrest plugins and
> > similar as above let Lenya manage everything.
> 
> This is my thinking entirely. Unfortunately I do not understand Lenya 
> enough yet to fully understand how easy/difficult this would be. I keep 
> sitting down trying to do something with Lenya and then get distracted. 
> Soon though...
> 

:)

I would like to find a paying project to do so. I mean playing around
with plugins and make them work in lenya and forrest, but ATM my spare
time is more then limited. :( Maybe next week where we have some
holydays here in Spain.

> 
> >                                 -- 0 --
> > 
> > We need to start with a low profile if we want to make both work together.
> > ;-)
> > 
> > WDYT?
> 
> I agree that a low profile is required until we actualy have something 
> working. The more I look at the way Lenya works the more difficult it 
> seems, but I am sure I will "get it" soon. So where you say "both work 
> together" there are at least three of us ;-)
> 

Yeah, IMO it should be *easy* to integrate them because both are based
on cocoon and in a dream world we just have to rewrite some matches. 

Maybe we can meet one day online via IRC with lenya and forrest devs
that are willing to help and brainstorm and start a branch with the
first steps.

WDYT?
-- 
thorsten

"Together we stand, divided we fall!" 
Hey you (Pink Floyd)

Re: Lenya may start using Forrest Plugins

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Antonio Gallardo wrote:
> 
>> Hi:
>>
>> I just got some ideas reading the lasts mails on the topic:
>>
>> 1. We can define Forrest doctype in the default lenya (outside a
>> publication). Maybe this is one of the (1st(s)?) pieces we need to have.
>> Lenya can use forrest doctypes. I mean to manage (content, FAQ, status 
>> and
>> so on). I guess using BXENG we can also define a editor for this forrest
>> content.
> 
> 
> IMHO we should do away with custom DTDs and only use (X)HTML(2) as a 
> basic source format. We should use divs or looser character conventions 
> to rework our FAQ, status, etc formats. In this way they become 
> automatically editable in htmltextarea.

+1, the htmlArea plugin works. It needs the CSS styling stuff adding so 
that we can only use defined styles, but I am now using it exclusively 
on our internal installation of Burrokeet. I have to tell you working in 
Eclipse with htmlArea as the editor rocks.

(and WYSIWYG editor would be fine, Lenya would provide more)

>> 2. Then Lenya can make use of forrest pipelines to render the pages.
>>
>> 3. I still see a problem in merging of Lenya "sitetree.xml" vs. site.xml
>> and tabs.xml. But we can do that in a separated subtask of the overall
>> project.
> 
> 
> IMHO the basic site.xml format has to be rediscussed. Could you 
> highlight the differences with sitetree.xml for us?

Even if site.xml stays the same there is no problem, simply create a 
plugin to create site.xml from sitetree.xml. The IMS Manifest plugin is 
an example of how to do this. It is a total replacement of site.xml and 
tabs.xml with IMS Manifest files.

I really like site.xml because it is really simple and easy to manually 
edit. Personally I think we should keep it because of that, not everyone 
will want to use Lenya.

I am willing to build this plugin (but not for a couple of weeks) if it 
will help us focus on the part I don't yet understand, which is the 
point below:

>> 5. A big question still in my mind is: the integration (Lenya and 
>> Forrest)
>> needs to be in the same servlet (running in the same servlet) or as 2
>> diferent applications (2 diferent servlets).

Lenya can (theoretically) be packaged as a series of Forrest Plugins. 
Then you only need do /forrest run/. If I understand correctly (and I 
only have a very high level understanding) Lenya is completely driven by 
URI requests, that means we can build plugins to intercept those 
requests and process them accordingly.

The hard part is the division of the Lenya sitemaps into Forrest plugin 
sitemaps in such a way that means Lenya is still a complete application 
without Forrest.

Ross

Re: Lenya may start using Forrest Plugins

[Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>]

Antonio Gallardo wrote:
> Hi:
> 
> I just got some ideas reading the lasts mails on the topic:
> 
> 1. We can define Forrest doctype in the default lenya (outside a
> publication). Maybe this is one of the (1st(s)?) pieces we need to have.
> Lenya can use forrest doctypes. I mean to manage (content, FAQ, status and
> so on). I guess using BXENG we can also define a editor for this forrest
> content.

IMHO we should do away with custom DTDs and only use (X)HTML(2) as a 
basic source format. We should use divs or looser character conventions 
to rework our FAQ, status, etc formats. In this way they become 
automatically editable in htmltextarea.

> 2. Then Lenya can make use of forrest pipelines to render the pages.
> 
> 3. I still see a problem in merging of Lenya "sitetree.xml" vs. site.xml
> and tabs.xml. But we can do that in a separated subtask of the overall
> project.

IMHO the basic site.xml format has to be rediscussed. Could you 
highlight the differences with sitetree.xml for us?

> 5. A big question still in my mind is: the integration (Lenya and Forrest)
> needs to be in the same servlet (running in the same servlet) or as 2
> diferent applications (2 diferent servlets).

Go figure! ;-)

-- 
Nicola Ken Barozzi                   nicolaken@apache.org
             - verba volant, scripta manent -
    (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Lenya may start using Forrest Plugins

[Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>]

Hi:

I just got some ideas reading the lasts mails on the topic:

1. We can define Forrest doctype in the default lenya (outside a
publication). Maybe this is one of the (1st(s)?) pieces we need to have.
Lenya can use forrest doctypes. I mean to manage (content, FAQ, status and
so on). I guess using BXENG we can also define a editor for this forrest
content.

2. Then Lenya can make use of forrest pipelines to render the pages.

3. I still see a problem in merging of Lenya "sitetree.xml" vs. site.xml
and tabs.xml. But we can do that in a separated subtask of the overall
project.

5. A big question still in my mind is: the integration (Lenya and Forrest)
needs to be in the same servlet (running in the same servlet) or as 2
diferent applications (2 diferent servlets).

WDYT?

Best Regards,

Antonio Gallardo