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Posted to dev@cordova.apache.org by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> on 2014/04/22 23:34:55 UTC
Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the
Cordova PMC.
The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book
keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more formal
incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves sending an
email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on
http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day
there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is not
fair to Cordova.
I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to nominate
Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project since
before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work on
Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute more
code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if there
is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties on.
Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Marcel Kinard <cm...@gmail.com>.
+1 to Shaz in the PMC Chair role.
Brian, you've done a tremendous job helping to build the community and contribute to the direction. I hope that doesn't change!
I got to meet Jim and other board members at ApacheCon a couple weeks ago. My takeaway is that they are super nice people, very reasonable, and want to do "the right thing". I learned some of the nuance of the Apache Way, and have a better understanding of their perspective. Though some of the Apache approaches and processes may be different, the overall goals are not. I believe the flames which have been exchanged here are overblown and would dissipate quickly during a face-to-face with some beverages. Sometimes email isn't a good vehicle for understanding another person.
On Apr 22, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to nominate
> Shazron Abdullha to take on the role.
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
No worries :)
On Apr 22, 2014, at 9:17 PM, Andrew Grieve <ag...@chromium.org> wrote:
> Joe - totally uncalled for. Not sure where it even came from. If you
> hate Apache so much, then why are you a *volunteer* on an Apache
> project?
>
> I'm fairly confident that there is not a good understanding of what it
> means to be a PMC, or PMC chair, and Jim is spending his time to help
> us out.
> Jim - thank you.
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>> There is one other aspect of the chair which, for a somewhat
>>> newish PMC is important: The entire PMC is responsible for
>>> ensuring that the project is run in a way which abides by,
>>> and embraces, the "Apache Way"... when it doesn't, the
>>> Chair needs to (1) know that the PMC is going awry and
>>> (2) encourage the PMC to fix those problems and (3)
>>> interact w/ the board if the PMC needs help in doing so.
>>>
>>
>> So, who is to protect the PMC from yourself and rest of the board
>> trying to destroy the project with insults and vitriol? While I
>> believe that Shazron is up to the task, I'm convinced that "The Apache
>> Way" is the worst way to run a software project, and that the Apache
>> Board spends all their time trying to find ways to debate itself into
>> irrelevancy. I wish that we never joined the ASF, and honestly when
>> you told us that we should leave months ago, I welcomed it. That
>> being said, we're still here, despite your best efforts. We've seen
>> what happens when the board tries to help, and it generally pisses a
>> bunch of committers off, and ends up with people insulting each other
>> personally. This response to your first e-mail on this list should
>> not come as any surprise.
>>
>> The fact is that Shaz fits well, because unlike me, he is diplomatic
>> and won't tell you to jump off a cliff every time you or any other
>> Apache person comes in and tries to interfere with our project.
>>
>>
>>> Not knowing Shaz personally, how does that all fit in
>>> with the nomination?
>>>
>>> On Apr 22, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the
>>>> Cordova PMC.
>>>>
>>>> The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book
>>>> keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more formal
>>>> incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
>>>> approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves sending an
>>>> email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on
>>>> http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day
>>>> there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
>>>>
>>>> In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
>>>> responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is not
>>>> fair to Cordova.
>>>>
>>>> I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to nominate
>>>> Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project since
>>>> before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
>>>> directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work on
>>>> Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
>>>>
>>>> I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute more
>>>> code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if there
>>>> is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties on.
>>>> Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
>>>
>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Apr 22, 2014, at 9:21 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 6:17 PM, Andrew Grieve <ag...@chromium.org> wrote:
>> Joe - totally uncalled for. Not sure where it even came from. If you
>> hate Apache so much, then why are you a *volunteer* on an Apache
>> project?
>
> Because I like the Cordova project, despite what Apache has done to it.
>
>>
>> I'm fairly confident that there is not a good understanding of what it
>> means to be a PMC, or PMC chair, and Jim is spending his time to help
>> us out.
>
> Nobody asked Jim to help, in fact quite the opposite. I know that we
> have to do what Apache tells us because they own the code now, but I
> don't have to pretend to like it.
Actually, the board did.
>
>> Jim - thank you.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>>> There is one other aspect of the chair which, for a somewhat
>>>> newish PMC is important: The entire PMC is responsible for
>>>> ensuring that the project is run in a way which abides by,
>>>> and embraces, the "Apache Way"... when it doesn't, the
>>>> Chair needs to (1) know that the PMC is going awry and
>>>> (2) encourage the PMC to fix those problems and (3)
>>>> interact w/ the board if the PMC needs help in doing so.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So, who is to protect the PMC from yourself and rest of the board
>>> trying to destroy the project with insults and vitriol? While I
>>> believe that Shazron is up to the task, I'm convinced that "The Apache
>>> Way" is the worst way to run a software project, and that the Apache
>>> Board spends all their time trying to find ways to debate itself into
>>> irrelevancy. I wish that we never joined the ASF, and honestly when
>>> you told us that we should leave months ago, I welcomed it. That
>>> being said, we're still here, despite your best efforts. We've seen
>>> what happens when the board tries to help, and it generally pisses a
>>> bunch of committers off, and ends up with people insulting each other
>>> personally. This response to your first e-mail on this list should
>>> not come as any surprise.
>>>
>>> The fact is that Shaz fits well, because unlike me, he is diplomatic
>>> and won't tell you to jump off a cliff every time you or any other
>>> Apache person comes in and tries to interfere with our project.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Not knowing Shaz personally, how does that all fit in
>>>> with the nomination?
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 22, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the
>>>>> Cordova PMC.
>>>>>
>>>>> The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book
>>>>> keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more formal
>>>>> incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
>>>>> approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves sending an
>>>>> email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on
>>>>> http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day
>>>>> there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
>>>>>
>>>>> In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
>>>>> responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is not
>>>>> fair to Cordova.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to nominate
>>>>> Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project since
>>>>> before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
>>>>> directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work on
>>>>> Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
>>>>>
>>>>> I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute more
>>>>> code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if there
>>>>> is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties on.
>>>>> Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
>>>>
>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 6:17 PM, Andrew Grieve <ag...@chromium.org> wrote:
> Joe - totally uncalled for. Not sure where it even came from. If you
> hate Apache so much, then why are you a *volunteer* on an Apache
> project?
Because I like the Cordova project, despite what Apache has done to it.
>
> I'm fairly confident that there is not a good understanding of what it
> means to be a PMC, or PMC chair, and Jim is spending his time to help
> us out.
Nobody asked Jim to help, in fact quite the opposite. I know that we
have to do what Apache tells us because they own the code now, but I
don't have to pretend to like it.
> Jim - thank you.
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>> There is one other aspect of the chair which, for a somewhat
>>> newish PMC is important: The entire PMC is responsible for
>>> ensuring that the project is run in a way which abides by,
>>> and embraces, the "Apache Way"... when it doesn't, the
>>> Chair needs to (1) know that the PMC is going awry and
>>> (2) encourage the PMC to fix those problems and (3)
>>> interact w/ the board if the PMC needs help in doing so.
>>>
>>
>> So, who is to protect the PMC from yourself and rest of the board
>> trying to destroy the project with insults and vitriol? While I
>> believe that Shazron is up to the task, I'm convinced that "The Apache
>> Way" is the worst way to run a software project, and that the Apache
>> Board spends all their time trying to find ways to debate itself into
>> irrelevancy. I wish that we never joined the ASF, and honestly when
>> you told us that we should leave months ago, I welcomed it. That
>> being said, we're still here, despite your best efforts. We've seen
>> what happens when the board tries to help, and it generally pisses a
>> bunch of committers off, and ends up with people insulting each other
>> personally. This response to your first e-mail on this list should
>> not come as any surprise.
>>
>> The fact is that Shaz fits well, because unlike me, he is diplomatic
>> and won't tell you to jump off a cliff every time you or any other
>> Apache person comes in and tries to interfere with our project.
>>
>>
>>> Not knowing Shaz personally, how does that all fit in
>>> with the nomination?
>>>
>>> On Apr 22, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the
>>>> Cordova PMC.
>>>>
>>>> The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book
>>>> keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more formal
>>>> incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
>>>> approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves sending an
>>>> email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on
>>>> http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day
>>>> there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
>>>>
>>>> In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
>>>> responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is not
>>>> fair to Cordova.
>>>>
>>>> I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to nominate
>>>> Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project since
>>>> before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
>>>> directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work on
>>>> Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
>>>>
>>>> I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute more
>>>> code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if there
>>>> is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties on.
>>>> Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
>>>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Shazron <sh...@gmail.com>.
Thanks for all you've done Brian! Also thank you for all the confidence and
acclaim everyone that has chimed in. I'll try to do my best for the project
and for Apache -- to dot the i's and cross all the t's (assuming the Apache
Board approves of course).
'Nuff said, I'll just express my gratitude in an 80's song - a classic by
the Pet Shop Boys and Dusty Springfield:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn9E5i7l-Eg
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Anis KADRI <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1 for Shaz! Thanks for everything Brian!
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 3:28 PM, Michael Brooks <michael@michaelbrooks.ca
> >wrote:
>
> > Brian, thank you for all of the hard work that you've done over the past
> > few years. Drinks will have to be on the Cordova team.
> >
> > +1 Shaz for all the reasons listed above.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 1:36 PM, RUDD, Brett <br...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > yep +1 to shaz, known (and worked on and off with) him for ten years
> and
> > > once you get used to his jokes (~ year 6) he's fine.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Off topic: Joe and Jim, please may you each put up email filters for
> > the
> > > > others' comments? Its almost entirely you two trolls yelling at each
> > > > other, throwing salt in wounds, in every thread about cordova vs
> apache
> > > > (actually they should be called Joe vs Jim threads). The problems
> with
> > > our
> > > > PMC and the Board are being blown way, way out of proportion I think.
> > >
> > > i think jim and sebb's input is productive on any, and seemingly every,
> > > email thread we have ever had, and their contribution to cordova has
> been
> > > invaluable and i look forward to working with them more closely in the
> > > future.
> > >
> > > -brett
> >
>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Anis KADRI <an...@gmail.com>.
+1 for Shaz! Thanks for everything Brian!
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 3:28 PM, Michael Brooks <mi...@michaelbrooks.ca>wrote:
> Brian, thank you for all of the hard work that you've done over the past
> few years. Drinks will have to be on the Cordova team.
>
> +1 Shaz for all the reasons listed above.
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 1:36 PM, RUDD, Brett <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > yep +1 to shaz, known (and worked on and off with) him for ten years and
> > once you get used to his jokes (~ year 6) he's fine.
> >
> > >
> > > Off topic: Joe and Jim, please may you each put up email filters for
> the
> > > others' comments? Its almost entirely you two trolls yelling at each
> > > other, throwing salt in wounds, in every thread about cordova vs apache
> > > (actually they should be called Joe vs Jim threads). The problems with
> > our
> > > PMC and the Board are being blown way, way out of proportion I think.
> >
> > i think jim and sebb's input is productive on any, and seemingly every,
> > email thread we have ever had, and their contribution to cordova has been
> > invaluable and i look forward to working with them more closely in the
> > future.
> >
> > -brett
>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Michael Brooks <mi...@michaelbrooks.ca>.
Brian, thank you for all of the hard work that you've done over the past
few years. Drinks will have to be on the Cordova team.
+1 Shaz for all the reasons listed above.
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 1:36 PM, RUDD, Brett <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> yep +1 to shaz, known (and worked on and off with) him for ten years and
> once you get used to his jokes (~ year 6) he's fine.
>
> >
> > Off topic: Joe and Jim, please may you each put up email filters for the
> > others' comments? Its almost entirely you two trolls yelling at each
> > other, throwing salt in wounds, in every thread about cordova vs apache
> > (actually they should be called Joe vs Jim threads). The problems with
> our
> > PMC and the Board are being blown way, way out of proportion I think.
>
> i think jim and sebb's input is productive on any, and seemingly every,
> email thread we have ever had, and their contribution to cordova has been
> invaluable and i look forward to working with them more closely in the
> future.
>
> -brett
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by "RUDD, Brett" <br...@gmail.com>.
yep +1 to shaz, known (and worked on and off with) him for ten years and once you get used to his jokes (~ year 6) he's fine.
>
> Off topic: Joe and Jim, please may you each put up email filters for the
> others' comments? Its almost entirely you two trolls yelling at each
> other, throwing salt in wounds, in every thread about cordova vs apache
> (actually they should be called Joe vs Jim threads). The problems with our
> PMC and the Board are being blown way, way out of proportion I think.
i think jim and sebb's input is productive on any, and seemingly every, email thread we have ever had, and their contribution to cordova has been invaluable and i look forward to working with them more closely in the future.
-brett
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Carlos Santana <cs...@gmail.com>.
+1 on Shaz if he wants to do it.
I hope he has the bandwidth to continue his awesome technical contributions
also.
I tip my hat to Brian for tremendous leadership in this community that is
not just an open source project is a philosophy on what we believe as a
community and and willing to dedicate time and effort to help others with
contributions.
--Carlos
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 11:32 AM, Mike Billau <mi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks a lot Brian for driving the project and always trying to do what's
> best for the community and the developers! Where's the beer fund I can
> donate to? ;D
>
> +1 Shaz if he is willing!
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Michal Mocny <mm...@chromium.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On topic: Big +1 to Shaz, a perfect fit. Also, thank you Brian for your
> > efforts over the years and your work bringing the project through
> > incubation. Thank you also for taking the decision to pass the torch.
> >
> > Off topic: Joe and Jim, please may you each put up email filters for the
> > others' comments? Its almost entirely you two trolls yelling at each
> > other, throwing salt in wounds, in every thread about cordova vs apache
> > (actually they should be called Joe vs Jim threads). The problems with
> our
> > PMC and the Board are being blown way, way out of proportion I think.
> >
> > -Michal
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > On Apr 22, 2014, at 10:36 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Some of the Apache rules are build up of old
> > > > policy that has become meaningless ceremony.
> > >
> > > This is not true. If you can provide examples of such "meaningless
> > > ceremony" that still exists, please mention them. They will either
> > > get removed, fixed or explained.
> > >
> > > FWIW, ALL policy has a basis in actual, tangible benefits
> > > to the community. Believe it or not, we are as anti-
> > > meaningless ceremony as you are. Why would we not
> > > be?? We are all people who develop and hack. We are
> > > not bureaucrats by choice or desire; we were *asked*
> > > to take on bureaucratic roles so that other developers
> > > didn't have to. And we care enough about the ASF to
> > > do so, and add those duties onto our numerous other
> > > duties as developers, committers, developers, PMC members, etc...
> > >
> >
>
--
Carlos Santana
<cs...@gmail.com>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Mike Billau <mi...@gmail.com>.
Thanks a lot Brian for driving the project and always trying to do what's
best for the community and the developers! Where's the beer fund I can
donate to? ;D
+1 Shaz if he is willing!
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Michal Mocny <mm...@chromium.org> wrote:
> On topic: Big +1 to Shaz, a perfect fit. Also, thank you Brian for your
> efforts over the years and your work bringing the project through
> incubation. Thank you also for taking the decision to pass the torch.
>
> Off topic: Joe and Jim, please may you each put up email filters for the
> others' comments? Its almost entirely you two trolls yelling at each
> other, throwing salt in wounds, in every thread about cordova vs apache
> (actually they should be called Joe vs Jim threads). The problems with our
> PMC and the Board are being blown way, way out of proportion I think.
>
> -Michal
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Apr 22, 2014, at 10:36 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >
> > > Some of the Apache rules are build up of old
> > > policy that has become meaningless ceremony.
> >
> > This is not true. If you can provide examples of such "meaningless
> > ceremony" that still exists, please mention them. They will either
> > get removed, fixed or explained.
> >
> > FWIW, ALL policy has a basis in actual, tangible benefits
> > to the community. Believe it or not, we are as anti-
> > meaningless ceremony as you are. Why would we not
> > be?? We are all people who develop and hack. We are
> > not bureaucrats by choice or desire; we were *asked*
> > to take on bureaucratic roles so that other developers
> > didn't have to. And we care enough about the ASF to
> > do so, and add those duties onto our numerous other
> > duties as developers, committers, developers, PMC members, etc...
> >
>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Michal Mocny <mm...@chromium.org>.
On topic: Big +1 to Shaz, a perfect fit. Also, thank you Brian for your
efforts over the years and your work bringing the project through
incubation. Thank you also for taking the decision to pass the torch.
Off topic: Joe and Jim, please may you each put up email filters for the
others' comments? Its almost entirely you two trolls yelling at each
other, throwing salt in wounds, in every thread about cordova vs apache
(actually they should be called Joe vs Jim threads). The problems with our
PMC and the Board are being blown way, way out of proportion I think.
-Michal
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
> On Apr 22, 2014, at 10:36 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>
> > Some of the Apache rules are build up of old
> > policy that has become meaningless ceremony.
>
> This is not true. If you can provide examples of such "meaningless
> ceremony" that still exists, please mention them. They will either
> get removed, fixed or explained.
>
> FWIW, ALL policy has a basis in actual, tangible benefits
> to the community. Believe it or not, we are as anti-
> meaningless ceremony as you are. Why would we not
> be?? We are all people who develop and hack. We are
> not bureaucrats by choice or desire; we were *asked*
> to take on bureaucratic roles so that other developers
> didn't have to. And we care enough about the ASF to
> do so, and add those duties onto our numerous other
> duties as developers, committers, developers, PMC members, etc...
>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Apr 22, 2014, at 10:36 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> Some of the Apache rules are build up of old
> policy that has become meaningless ceremony.
This is not true. If you can provide examples of such "meaningless
ceremony" that still exists, please mention them. They will either
get removed, fixed or explained.
FWIW, ALL policy has a basis in actual, tangible benefits
to the community. Believe it or not, we are as anti-
meaningless ceremony as you are. Why would we not
be?? We are all people who develop and hack. We are
not bureaucrats by choice or desire; we were *asked*
to take on bureaucratic roles so that other developers
didn't have to. And we care enough about the ASF to
do so, and add those duties onto our numerous other
duties as developers, committers, developers, PMC members, etc...
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by James Jong <wj...@gmail.com>.
+1 to chair nomination for Shaz. He will do a great job.
Let’s try and keep this on topic and move the Apache Way discussion to a separate thread.
-James Jong
On Apr 23, 2014, at 3:09 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think I need to go into why I don't like "The Apache Way" from the
> view of the people that I actually care about, our users. The people
> who talk to me at conventions, and wonder why things are so slow,
> broken and stupid.
>
> 1. All communication on the e-mail list
>
> We've been breaking this one with Google Hangouts. From my
> understanding we can't make any decision on the Google Hangout because
> that is against the Apache Way and some committer can't make the
> hangout in theory. The reality is that we have zero European
> contributors and we manage to accomodate Tommy though magic of him
> either being able to not sleep, or us picking a weird ass time that
> screws over the East Coast. Before we did hangouts, connect and
> conference calls on a more regular basis and it was easier for us to
> actually work on shit together instead of being in weird silos.
>
> 2. Bureaucracy > Community > Code
>
> We've had numerous users complain about how we had to leave GitHub,
> how hard it is to submit an issue, about API changes because of
> Trademark Issues, and other issues pertaining to Apache Cordova
> updates. We've had people criticize our fix for the non-voting and
> people criticize the voting. We've basically had people criticize
> everything that we've done to abide by the Apache Way because it makes
> no sense. If Community > Code actually meant something, we'd listen
> to all the users we had before we donated PhoneGap to Apache and
> created Cordova. Just beacuse we're not httpd or OpenOffice doesn't
> mean we don't have an active and passionate userbase that frankly
> loves us and is passionate about this project far more than we ever
> deserve. We should do better to listen to them and push back against
> bureaucracy that doesn't make sense. It's not us being special
> snowflakes, it's us fighting for the user!
>
> 3. Being bad at working with people and projects isn't funny
>
> I really didn't find the SVN abandoning SVN and adopting Git funny
> (https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-7524) because I was privy
> to all the communications sent during the whole
> not-voting-for-releases battle. Everything is a big fight with
> Apache, especially with people such as Jim. The first e-mail I
> remember receiving from Jim was the cced one basically telling us to
> go pound sand, which is my first impression of how the Apache board
> works. Being assholes in private or public isn't funny, it's sad and
> pathetic. However, it appears to be the Apache Way, which is why I do
> it on this list, albeit not nearly as hard as people do it on most of
> the lists that I've seen.
>
> I know that people don't care what anyone thinks of them, but that's a
> bad attitude when you're trying to attract contributors, and when
> you're trying to attract projects to the foundation. Whether it's
> hangover posts from the Git war, or other posts bemoaning the Apache
> culture of RTFM when it comes to its arcane policies, this is actively
> discouraging people from being involved with Apache at all, including
> Apache Cordova. I have some friends who were formerly with Apache, or
> associated with the ASF that aren't because of it's toxic culture, and
> it pisses me off that aspects of it continue, so yeah, I'm pretty
> toxic to things that I see as toxic. I'm not going to air all the
> dirty laundry here.
>
> Now, those are probably my main three complaints. I already know that
> there's going to be some defence about not caring what other people
> think and popularity contests, and I don't view that as productive.
> I'm not asking everyone to sing kumbaya, but it would be nice if the
> ASF, and those trying to curry favour with the ASF, would stop
> purposely trying to alienate the people who helped create this project
> in the first place. If you forwarded me an e-mail, even
> unintentionally where you were abusive to myself or other people who
> created this thing, I'll definitely remember that.
>
> Now, I think I derailed this thread enough with my personal opinion.
> I think Shaz should be our chair because I think he'll do a good job
> at it.
>
> Joe
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>> Coming from Joe's perspective this is year 6 of the source code now known
>> as Cordova. Jim and others have as much merit in our world as we clearly do
>> in theirs. It is not uncalled for and very obvious where the sentiment
>> comes from. Members of the board care deeply about Apache and we care
>> deeply about Cordova. Finding a respectful and productive balance would be
>> nice though clearly this is not mandatory.
>>
>> Anyhow, the very concept of PMC was always intended to be no different than
>> committer in Cordova. This was understood and acknowledged during
>> incubation. Despite the language of meritocracy there's a hierarchical
>> pyramid at Apache (Contributor->Committer->PMC->Member) and we very
>> deliberately chose to incorporate Committer and PMC Member at the same
>> time.
>>
>> If you are good enough to land a patch you are good enough to be involved
>> in the releasing of it. We have always intended to continue with a flat
>> structure though given recent board "help" with releasing I could see this
>> changing too.
>>
>> Simply put, ideally there is zero barrier to contribute and ship. Anything
>> that gets in the way of contribution and releasing is inviting higher
>> chance of project failure. Some of the Apache rules are build up of old
>> policy that has become meaningless ceremony. We need to get better at
>> acknowledging that for what it is and fixing Apache. (Another example would
>> be eradicating the harmful concepts in meritocracy.)
>>
>> But back at Jim's comment: yes I very much do believe Shaz lives up the
>> conveniently vague term "The Apache Way" as I understand it [1] but please
>> do check the facts.
>>
>> [1] http://brian.io/slides/codemania-2014/#/16
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 6:17 PM, Andrew Grieve <ag...@chromium.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Joe - totally uncalled for. Not sure where it even came from. If you
>>> hate Apache so much, then why are you a *volunteer* on an Apache
>>> project?
>>>
>>> I'm fairly confident that there is not a good understanding of what it
>>> means to be a PMC, or PMC chair, and Jim is spending his time to help
>>> us out.
>>> Jim - thank you.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>>>> There is one other aspect of the chair which, for a somewhat
>>>>> newish PMC is important: The entire PMC is responsible for
>>>>> ensuring that the project is run in a way which abides by,
>>>>> and embraces, the "Apache Way"... when it doesn't, the
>>>>> Chair needs to (1) know that the PMC is going awry and
>>>>> (2) encourage the PMC to fix those problems and (3)
>>>>> interact w/ the board if the PMC needs help in doing so.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So, who is to protect the PMC from yourself and rest of the board
>>>> trying to destroy the project with insults and vitriol? While I
>>>> believe that Shazron is up to the task, I'm convinced that "The Apache
>>>> Way" is the worst way to run a software project, and that the Apache
>>>> Board spends all their time trying to find ways to debate itself into
>>>> irrelevancy. I wish that we never joined the ASF, and honestly when
>>>> you told us that we should leave months ago, I welcomed it. That
>>>> being said, we're still here, despite your best efforts. We've seen
>>>> what happens when the board tries to help, and it generally pisses a
>>>> bunch of committers off, and ends up with people insulting each other
>>>> personally. This response to your first e-mail on this list should
>>>> not come as any surprise.
>>>>
>>>> The fact is that Shaz fits well, because unlike me, he is diplomatic
>>>> and won't tell you to jump off a cliff every time you or any other
>>>> Apache person comes in and tries to interfere with our project.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Not knowing Shaz personally, how does that all fit in
>>>>> with the nomination?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 22, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the
>>>>>> Cordova PMC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book
>>>>>> keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more
>>> formal
>>>>>> incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
>>>>>> approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves
>>> sending an
>>>>>> email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on
>>>>>> http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day
>>>>>> there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
>>>>>> responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is
>>> not
>>>>>> fair to Cordova.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to
>>> nominate
>>>>>> Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project
>>> since
>>>>>> before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
>>>>>> directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work
>>> on
>>>>>> Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute
>>> more
>>>>>> code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if
>>> there
>>>>>> is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties
>>> on.
>>>>>> Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
>>>>>
>>>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Apr 23, 2014, at 3:09 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think I need to go into why I don't like "The Apache Way" from the
> view of the people that I actually care about, our users. The people
> who talk to me at conventions, and wonder why things are so slow,
> broken and stupid.
>
> 1. All communication on the e-mail list
>
> We've been breaking this one with Google Hangouts. From my
> understanding we can't make any decision on the Google Hangout because
> that is against the Apache Way and some committer can't make the
> hangout in theory. The reality is that we have zero European
> contributors and we manage to accomodate Tommy though magic of him
> either being able to not sleep, or us picking a weird ass time that
> screws over the East Coast. Before we did hangouts, connect and
> conference calls on a more regular basis and it was easier for us to
> actually work on shit together instead of being in weird silos.
>
The very fact that the PMC is OK with it *now* is immaterial.
Do you know how many people you are disenfranchising from
being potential committers/members/users because you are holding
such "meetings" using hangouts? The PMC should be worried
not only about the community as it exists today, but to
also ensure that the community continues to exist long after
the *current* group of people leave for other things.
It's called planning for the future, and sometimes that takes
time and effort.
> 2. Bureaucracy > Community > Code
>
> We've had numerous users complain about how we had to leave GitHub,
> how hard it is to submit an issue, about API changes because of
> Trademark Issues, and other issues pertaining to Apache Cordova
> updates. We've had people criticize our fix for the non-voting and
> people criticize the voting. We've basically had people criticize
> everything that we've done to abide by the Apache Way because it makes
> no sense. If Community > Code actually meant something, we'd listen
> to all the users we had before we donated PhoneGap to Apache and
> created Cordova. Just beacuse we're not httpd or OpenOffice doesn't
> mean we don't have an active and passionate userbase that frankly
> loves us and is passionate about this project far more than we ever
> deserve. We should do better to listen to them and push back against
> bureaucracy that doesn't make sense. It's not us being special
> snowflakes, it's us fighting for the user!
>
I will forego the obvious attempt at trolling by lumping
"Bureaucracy" in there, but needed to say, it is kinda
clear that you don't understand much more than the
words "community over code" and lack a clear understanding
of the rationale behind that. Partly it is explained in my
answer to #1, but I could go into much more detail if desired.
If you and others are *really* interested in knowing more,
and not just venting or trolling, let me know.
> 3. Being bad at working with people and projects isn't funny
>
> I really didn't find the SVN abandoning SVN and adopting Git funny
> (https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-7524) because I was privy
> to all the communications sent during the whole
> not-voting-for-releases battle. Everything is a big fight with
> Apache, especially with people such as Jim. The first e-mail I
> remember receiving from Jim was the cced one basically telling us to
> go pound sand, which is my first impression of how the Apache board
> works. Being assholes in private or public isn't funny, it's sad and
> pathetic. However, it appears to be the Apache Way, which is why I do
> it on this list, albeit not nearly as hard as people do it on most of
> the lists that I've seen.
>
The board is not a fine surgical scalpel. It is a blunt hammer.
When things arise to the level of the board, it is
because there is a problem. A serious problem.
Maybe an analogy would help. Say you have decided to become
orthodox Jewish. You then complain that you can't eat pork, and
that not eating pork is stupid and that you can't see any
reason for it, despite it being a "condition" of being a Jew.
You talk to a rabbi. Do you expect him to say "Of course,
I understand. Please do what you want." or do you expect that
he will say, basically, "pound sand"?
> I know that people don't care what anyone thinks of them, but that's a
> bad attitude when you're trying to attract contributors, and when
> you're trying to attract projects to the foundation. Whether it's
> hangover posts from the Git war, or other posts bemoaning the Apache
> culture of RTFM when it comes to its arcane policies, this is actively
> discouraging people from being involved with Apache at all, including
> Apache Cordova. I have some friends who were formerly with Apache, or
> associated with the ASF that aren't because of it's toxic culture, and
> it pisses me off that aspects of it continue, so yeah, I'm pretty
> toxic to things that I see as toxic. I'm not going to air all the
> dirty laundry here.
>
We have never said that the ASF nor the Apache Way is for everyone.
So the fact that you know people who were formerly w/ or involved
in Apache means nothing. Maybe they were controlling dictators who
couldn't stand allowing other people into their own personal
sandboxes. Or maybe they were real nice people who just didn't
like things here in the ASF. I'm not sure. But again, stuff like
that happens.
It is also obvious that you, and others, already are predisposed
to being toxic against anything Apache. To you, the Apache Way,
and old=timers such as myself are clueless, out-of-touch fucktards
who simply can't understand how real development is done in the
21st century. Is that really how you value experience?
And finally, it was Cordova who decided to come to Apache, not
the reverse. Considering that the ASF is such a complete and
total disaster, why???
> Now, those are probably my main three complaints. I already know that
> there's going to be some defence about not caring what other people
> think and popularity contests, and I don't view that as productive.
> I'm not asking everyone to sing kumbaya, but it would be nice if the
> ASF, and those trying to curry favour with the ASF, would stop
> purposely trying to alienate the people who helped create this project
> in the first place. If you forwarded me an e-mail, even
> unintentionally where you were abusive to myself or other people who
> created this thing, I'll definitely remember that.
>
> Now, I think I derailed this thread enough with my personal opinion.
> I think Shaz should be our chair because I think he'll do a good job
> at it.
>
> Joe
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>> Coming from Joe's perspective this is year 6 of the source code now known
>> as Cordova. Jim and others have as much merit in our world as we clearly do
>> in theirs. It is not uncalled for and very obvious where the sentiment
>> comes from. Members of the board care deeply about Apache and we care
>> deeply about Cordova. Finding a respectful and productive balance would be
>> nice though clearly this is not mandatory.
>>
>> Anyhow, the very concept of PMC was always intended to be no different than
>> committer in Cordova. This was understood and acknowledged during
>> incubation. Despite the language of meritocracy there's a hierarchical
>> pyramid at Apache (Contributor->Committer->PMC->Member) and we very
>> deliberately chose to incorporate Committer and PMC Member at the same
>> time.
>>
>> If you are good enough to land a patch you are good enough to be involved
>> in the releasing of it. We have always intended to continue with a flat
>> structure though given recent board "help" with releasing I could see this
>> changing too.
>>
>> Simply put, ideally there is zero barrier to contribute and ship. Anything
>> that gets in the way of contribution and releasing is inviting higher
>> chance of project failure. Some of the Apache rules are build up of old
>> policy that has become meaningless ceremony. We need to get better at
>> acknowledging that for what it is and fixing Apache. (Another example would
>> be eradicating the harmful concepts in meritocracy.)
>>
>> But back at Jim's comment: yes I very much do believe Shaz lives up the
>> conveniently vague term "The Apache Way" as I understand it [1] but please
>> do check the facts.
>>
>> [1] http://brian.io/slides/codemania-2014/#/16
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 6:17 PM, Andrew Grieve <ag...@chromium.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Joe - totally uncalled for. Not sure where it even came from. If you
>>> hate Apache so much, then why are you a *volunteer* on an Apache
>>> project?
>>>
>>> I'm fairly confident that there is not a good understanding of what it
>>> means to be a PMC, or PMC chair, and Jim is spending his time to help
>>> us out.
>>> Jim - thank you.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>>>> There is one other aspect of the chair which, for a somewhat
>>>>> newish PMC is important: The entire PMC is responsible for
>>>>> ensuring that the project is run in a way which abides by,
>>>>> and embraces, the "Apache Way"... when it doesn't, the
>>>>> Chair needs to (1) know that the PMC is going awry and
>>>>> (2) encourage the PMC to fix those problems and (3)
>>>>> interact w/ the board if the PMC needs help in doing so.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So, who is to protect the PMC from yourself and rest of the board
>>>> trying to destroy the project with insults and vitriol? While I
>>>> believe that Shazron is up to the task, I'm convinced that "The Apache
>>>> Way" is the worst way to run a software project, and that the Apache
>>>> Board spends all their time trying to find ways to debate itself into
>>>> irrelevancy. I wish that we never joined the ASF, and honestly when
>>>> you told us that we should leave months ago, I welcomed it. That
>>>> being said, we're still here, despite your best efforts. We've seen
>>>> what happens when the board tries to help, and it generally pisses a
>>>> bunch of committers off, and ends up with people insulting each other
>>>> personally. This response to your first e-mail on this list should
>>>> not come as any surprise.
>>>>
>>>> The fact is that Shaz fits well, because unlike me, he is diplomatic
>>>> and won't tell you to jump off a cliff every time you or any other
>>>> Apache person comes in and tries to interfere with our project.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Not knowing Shaz personally, how does that all fit in
>>>>> with the nomination?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 22, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the
>>>>>> Cordova PMC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book
>>>>>> keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more
>>> formal
>>>>>> incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
>>>>>> approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves
>>> sending an
>>>>>> email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on
>>>>>> http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day
>>>>>> there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
>>>>>> responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is
>>> not
>>>>>> fair to Cordova.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to
>>> nominate
>>>>>> Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project
>>> since
>>>>>> before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
>>>>>> directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work
>>> on
>>>>>> Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute
>>> more
>>>>>> code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if
>>> there
>>>>>> is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties
>>> on.
>>>>>> Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
>>>>>
>>>
>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>.
I think I need to go into why I don't like "The Apache Way" from the
view of the people that I actually care about, our users. The people
who talk to me at conventions, and wonder why things are so slow,
broken and stupid.
1. All communication on the e-mail list
We've been breaking this one with Google Hangouts. From my
understanding we can't make any decision on the Google Hangout because
that is against the Apache Way and some committer can't make the
hangout in theory. The reality is that we have zero European
contributors and we manage to accomodate Tommy though magic of him
either being able to not sleep, or us picking a weird ass time that
screws over the East Coast. Before we did hangouts, connect and
conference calls on a more regular basis and it was easier for us to
actually work on shit together instead of being in weird silos.
2. Bureaucracy > Community > Code
We've had numerous users complain about how we had to leave GitHub,
how hard it is to submit an issue, about API changes because of
Trademark Issues, and other issues pertaining to Apache Cordova
updates. We've had people criticize our fix for the non-voting and
people criticize the voting. We've basically had people criticize
everything that we've done to abide by the Apache Way because it makes
no sense. If Community > Code actually meant something, we'd listen
to all the users we had before we donated PhoneGap to Apache and
created Cordova. Just beacuse we're not httpd or OpenOffice doesn't
mean we don't have an active and passionate userbase that frankly
loves us and is passionate about this project far more than we ever
deserve. We should do better to listen to them and push back against
bureaucracy that doesn't make sense. It's not us being special
snowflakes, it's us fighting for the user!
3. Being bad at working with people and projects isn't funny
I really didn't find the SVN abandoning SVN and adopting Git funny
(https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-7524) because I was privy
to all the communications sent during the whole
not-voting-for-releases battle. Everything is a big fight with
Apache, especially with people such as Jim. The first e-mail I
remember receiving from Jim was the cced one basically telling us to
go pound sand, which is my first impression of how the Apache board
works. Being assholes in private or public isn't funny, it's sad and
pathetic. However, it appears to be the Apache Way, which is why I do
it on this list, albeit not nearly as hard as people do it on most of
the lists that I've seen.
I know that people don't care what anyone thinks of them, but that's a
bad attitude when you're trying to attract contributors, and when
you're trying to attract projects to the foundation. Whether it's
hangover posts from the Git war, or other posts bemoaning the Apache
culture of RTFM when it comes to its arcane policies, this is actively
discouraging people from being involved with Apache at all, including
Apache Cordova. I have some friends who were formerly with Apache, or
associated with the ASF that aren't because of it's toxic culture, and
it pisses me off that aspects of it continue, so yeah, I'm pretty
toxic to things that I see as toxic. I'm not going to air all the
dirty laundry here.
Now, those are probably my main three complaints. I already know that
there's going to be some defence about not caring what other people
think and popularity contests, and I don't view that as productive.
I'm not asking everyone to sing kumbaya, but it would be nice if the
ASF, and those trying to curry favour with the ASF, would stop
purposely trying to alienate the people who helped create this project
in the first place. If you forwarded me an e-mail, even
unintentionally where you were abusive to myself or other people who
created this thing, I'll definitely remember that.
Now, I think I derailed this thread enough with my personal opinion.
I think Shaz should be our chair because I think he'll do a good job
at it.
Joe
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> Coming from Joe's perspective this is year 6 of the source code now known
> as Cordova. Jim and others have as much merit in our world as we clearly do
> in theirs. It is not uncalled for and very obvious where the sentiment
> comes from. Members of the board care deeply about Apache and we care
> deeply about Cordova. Finding a respectful and productive balance would be
> nice though clearly this is not mandatory.
>
> Anyhow, the very concept of PMC was always intended to be no different than
> committer in Cordova. This was understood and acknowledged during
> incubation. Despite the language of meritocracy there's a hierarchical
> pyramid at Apache (Contributor->Committer->PMC->Member) and we very
> deliberately chose to incorporate Committer and PMC Member at the same
> time.
>
> If you are good enough to land a patch you are good enough to be involved
> in the releasing of it. We have always intended to continue with a flat
> structure though given recent board "help" with releasing I could see this
> changing too.
>
> Simply put, ideally there is zero barrier to contribute and ship. Anything
> that gets in the way of contribution and releasing is inviting higher
> chance of project failure. Some of the Apache rules are build up of old
> policy that has become meaningless ceremony. We need to get better at
> acknowledging that for what it is and fixing Apache. (Another example would
> be eradicating the harmful concepts in meritocracy.)
>
> But back at Jim's comment: yes I very much do believe Shaz lives up the
> conveniently vague term "The Apache Way" as I understand it [1] but please
> do check the facts.
>
> [1] http://brian.io/slides/codemania-2014/#/16
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 6:17 PM, Andrew Grieve <ag...@chromium.org> wrote:
>
>> Joe - totally uncalled for. Not sure where it even came from. If you
>> hate Apache so much, then why are you a *volunteer* on an Apache
>> project?
>>
>> I'm fairly confident that there is not a good understanding of what it
>> means to be a PMC, or PMC chair, and Jim is spending his time to help
>> us out.
>> Jim - thank you.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>> >> There is one other aspect of the chair which, for a somewhat
>> >> newish PMC is important: The entire PMC is responsible for
>> >> ensuring that the project is run in a way which abides by,
>> >> and embraces, the "Apache Way"... when it doesn't, the
>> >> Chair needs to (1) know that the PMC is going awry and
>> >> (2) encourage the PMC to fix those problems and (3)
>> >> interact w/ the board if the PMC needs help in doing so.
>> >>
>> >
>> > So, who is to protect the PMC from yourself and rest of the board
>> > trying to destroy the project with insults and vitriol? While I
>> > believe that Shazron is up to the task, I'm convinced that "The Apache
>> > Way" is the worst way to run a software project, and that the Apache
>> > Board spends all their time trying to find ways to debate itself into
>> > irrelevancy. I wish that we never joined the ASF, and honestly when
>> > you told us that we should leave months ago, I welcomed it. That
>> > being said, we're still here, despite your best efforts. We've seen
>> > what happens when the board tries to help, and it generally pisses a
>> > bunch of committers off, and ends up with people insulting each other
>> > personally. This response to your first e-mail on this list should
>> > not come as any surprise.
>> >
>> > The fact is that Shaz fits well, because unlike me, he is diplomatic
>> > and won't tell you to jump off a cliff every time you or any other
>> > Apache person comes in and tries to interfere with our project.
>> >
>> >
>> >> Not knowing Shaz personally, how does that all fit in
>> >> with the nomination?
>> >>
>> >> On Apr 22, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the
>> >>> Cordova PMC.
>> >>>
>> >>> The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book
>> >>> keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more
>> formal
>> >>> incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
>> >>> approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves
>> sending an
>> >>> email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on
>> >>> http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day
>> >>> there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
>> >>>
>> >>> In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
>> >>> responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is
>> not
>> >>> fair to Cordova.
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to
>> nominate
>> >>> Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project
>> since
>> >>> before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
>> >>> directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work
>> on
>> >>> Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
>> >>>
>> >>> I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute
>> more
>> >>> code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if
>> there
>> >>> is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties
>> on.
>> >>> Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
>> >>
>>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io>.
Coming from Joe's perspective this is year 6 of the source code now known
as Cordova. Jim and others have as much merit in our world as we clearly do
in theirs. It is not uncalled for and very obvious where the sentiment
comes from. Members of the board care deeply about Apache and we care
deeply about Cordova. Finding a respectful and productive balance would be
nice though clearly this is not mandatory.
Anyhow, the very concept of PMC was always intended to be no different than
committer in Cordova. This was understood and acknowledged during
incubation. Despite the language of meritocracy there's a hierarchical
pyramid at Apache (Contributor->Committer->PMC->Member) and we very
deliberately chose to incorporate Committer and PMC Member at the same
time.
If you are good enough to land a patch you are good enough to be involved
in the releasing of it. We have always intended to continue with a flat
structure though given recent board "help" with releasing I could see this
changing too.
Simply put, ideally there is zero barrier to contribute and ship. Anything
that gets in the way of contribution and releasing is inviting higher
chance of project failure. Some of the Apache rules are build up of old
policy that has become meaningless ceremony. We need to get better at
acknowledging that for what it is and fixing Apache. (Another example would
be eradicating the harmful concepts in meritocracy.)
But back at Jim's comment: yes I very much do believe Shaz lives up the
conveniently vague term "The Apache Way" as I understand it [1] but please
do check the facts.
[1] http://brian.io/slides/codemania-2014/#/16
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 6:17 PM, Andrew Grieve <ag...@chromium.org> wrote:
> Joe - totally uncalled for. Not sure where it even came from. If you
> hate Apache so much, then why are you a *volunteer* on an Apache
> project?
>
> I'm fairly confident that there is not a good understanding of what it
> means to be a PMC, or PMC chair, and Jim is spending his time to help
> us out.
> Jim - thank you.
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >> There is one other aspect of the chair which, for a somewhat
> >> newish PMC is important: The entire PMC is responsible for
> >> ensuring that the project is run in a way which abides by,
> >> and embraces, the "Apache Way"... when it doesn't, the
> >> Chair needs to (1) know that the PMC is going awry and
> >> (2) encourage the PMC to fix those problems and (3)
> >> interact w/ the board if the PMC needs help in doing so.
> >>
> >
> > So, who is to protect the PMC from yourself and rest of the board
> > trying to destroy the project with insults and vitriol? While I
> > believe that Shazron is up to the task, I'm convinced that "The Apache
> > Way" is the worst way to run a software project, and that the Apache
> > Board spends all their time trying to find ways to debate itself into
> > irrelevancy. I wish that we never joined the ASF, and honestly when
> > you told us that we should leave months ago, I welcomed it. That
> > being said, we're still here, despite your best efforts. We've seen
> > what happens when the board tries to help, and it generally pisses a
> > bunch of committers off, and ends up with people insulting each other
> > personally. This response to your first e-mail on this list should
> > not come as any surprise.
> >
> > The fact is that Shaz fits well, because unlike me, he is diplomatic
> > and won't tell you to jump off a cliff every time you or any other
> > Apache person comes in and tries to interfere with our project.
> >
> >
> >> Not knowing Shaz personally, how does that all fit in
> >> with the nomination?
> >>
> >> On Apr 22, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the
> >>> Cordova PMC.
> >>>
> >>> The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book
> >>> keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more
> formal
> >>> incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
> >>> approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves
> sending an
> >>> email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on
> >>> http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day
> >>> there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
> >>>
> >>> In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
> >>> responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is
> not
> >>> fair to Cordova.
> >>>
> >>> I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to
> nominate
> >>> Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project
> since
> >>> before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
> >>> directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work
> on
> >>> Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
> >>>
> >>> I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute
> more
> >>> code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if
> there
> >>> is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties
> on.
> >>> Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
> >>
>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Andrew Grieve <ag...@chromium.org>.
Joe - totally uncalled for. Not sure where it even came from. If you
hate Apache so much, then why are you a *volunteer* on an Apache
project?
I'm fairly confident that there is not a good understanding of what it
means to be a PMC, or PMC chair, and Jim is spending his time to help
us out.
Jim - thank you.
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>> There is one other aspect of the chair which, for a somewhat
>> newish PMC is important: The entire PMC is responsible for
>> ensuring that the project is run in a way which abides by,
>> and embraces, the "Apache Way"... when it doesn't, the
>> Chair needs to (1) know that the PMC is going awry and
>> (2) encourage the PMC to fix those problems and (3)
>> interact w/ the board if the PMC needs help in doing so.
>>
>
> So, who is to protect the PMC from yourself and rest of the board
> trying to destroy the project with insults and vitriol? While I
> believe that Shazron is up to the task, I'm convinced that "The Apache
> Way" is the worst way to run a software project, and that the Apache
> Board spends all their time trying to find ways to debate itself into
> irrelevancy. I wish that we never joined the ASF, and honestly when
> you told us that we should leave months ago, I welcomed it. That
> being said, we're still here, despite your best efforts. We've seen
> what happens when the board tries to help, and it generally pisses a
> bunch of committers off, and ends up with people insulting each other
> personally. This response to your first e-mail on this list should
> not come as any surprise.
>
> The fact is that Shaz fits well, because unlike me, he is diplomatic
> and won't tell you to jump off a cliff every time you or any other
> Apache person comes in and tries to interfere with our project.
>
>
>> Not knowing Shaz personally, how does that all fit in
>> with the nomination?
>>
>> On Apr 22, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the
>>> Cordova PMC.
>>>
>>> The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book
>>> keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more formal
>>> incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
>>> approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves sending an
>>> email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on
>>> http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day
>>> there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
>>>
>>> In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
>>> responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is not
>>> fair to Cordova.
>>>
>>> I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to nominate
>>> Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project since
>>> before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
>>> directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work on
>>> Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
>>>
>>> I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute more
>>> code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if there
>>> is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties on.
>>> Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
>>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> There is one other aspect of the chair which, for a somewhat
> newish PMC is important: The entire PMC is responsible for
> ensuring that the project is run in a way which abides by,
> and embraces, the "Apache Way"... when it doesn't, the
> Chair needs to (1) know that the PMC is going awry and
> (2) encourage the PMC to fix those problems and (3)
> interact w/ the board if the PMC needs help in doing so.
>
So, who is to protect the PMC from yourself and rest of the board
trying to destroy the project with insults and vitriol? While I
believe that Shazron is up to the task, I'm convinced that "The Apache
Way" is the worst way to run a software project, and that the Apache
Board spends all their time trying to find ways to debate itself into
irrelevancy. I wish that we never joined the ASF, and honestly when
you told us that we should leave months ago, I welcomed it. That
being said, we're still here, despite your best efforts. We've seen
what happens when the board tries to help, and it generally pisses a
bunch of committers off, and ends up with people insulting each other
personally. This response to your first e-mail on this list should
not come as any surprise.
The fact is that Shaz fits well, because unlike me, he is diplomatic
and won't tell you to jump off a cliff every time you or any other
Apache person comes in and tries to interfere with our project.
> Not knowing Shaz personally, how does that all fit in
> with the nomination?
>
> On Apr 22, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>
>> Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the
>> Cordova PMC.
>>
>> The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book
>> keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more formal
>> incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
>> approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves sending an
>> email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on
>> http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day
>> there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
>>
>> In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
>> responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is not
>> fair to Cordova.
>>
>> I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to nominate
>> Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project since
>> before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
>> directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work on
>> Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
>>
>> I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute more
>> code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if there
>> is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties on.
>> Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
There is one other aspect of the chair which, for a somewhat
newish PMC is important: The entire PMC is responsible for
ensuring that the project is run in a way which abides by,
and embraces, the "Apache Way"... when it doesn't, the
Chair needs to (1) know that the PMC is going awry and
(2) encourage the PMC to fix those problems and (3)
interact w/ the board if the PMC needs help in doing so.
Not knowing Shaz personally, how does that all fit in
with the nomination?
On Apr 22, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the
> Cordova PMC.
>
> The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book
> keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more formal
> incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
> approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves sending an
> email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on
> http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day
> there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
>
> In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
> responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is not
> fair to Cordova.
>
> I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to nominate
> Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project since
> before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
> directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work on
> Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
>
> I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute more
> code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if there
> is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties on.
> Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
RE: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by "Dao, Thomas" <Th...@T-Mobile.com>.
+1
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:35 PM
To: dev
Subject: Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
+1 to this!
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'll second the nomination.
> I think Shaz is a perfect candidate.
>
> @purplecabbage
> risingj.com
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Ross Gerbasi <rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Good stuff, Shazron has always been a huge resource, main guy I turn
>> to for any deeper questions. Just hoping this doesn't cut into the
>> amount of awesome updates and enhancements we see! :)
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>
>> > Geez, see how bad I am at this? I meant Shazron Abdullah not that
>> > other guy. =S
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair
>> > > for the Cordova PMC.
>> > >
>> > > The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and
>> > > book keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache
>> > > have more
>> > formal
>> > > incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our
>> > > lightweight approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too.
>> > > This involves sending
>> > an
>> > > email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl
>> > > scripts on http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is
>> > > important if some day there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
>> > >
>> > > In evaluation of my current workload these additional book
>> > > keeping responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize
>> > > and that is
>> not
>> > > fair to Cordova.
>> > >
>> > > I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to
>> nominate
>> > > Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the
>> > > project
>> > since
>> > > before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most,
>> > > interacts directly with the community more than anyone, and is
>> > > committed to work
>> on
>> > > Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
>> > >
>> > > I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can
>> > > contribute
>> more
>> > > code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote
>> > > if
>> > there
>> > > is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin
>> > > duties
>> on.
>> > > Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
>> > >
>> >
>>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Andrew Grieve <ag...@chromium.org>.
Sounds good to me. (Do we need a vote thread for this?)
Responsibilities for PMC chair: http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#chair
Note also to others who are on the Cordova PMC
(http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#cordova-pmc)
PMC members have responsibilities as well:
http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#policy
Mostly, we are responsible for making sure our releases are up to par.
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 8:52 PM, Tommy Williams <to...@devgeeks.org> wrote:
> A solid +1 from myself as well... Assuming he wants the job :)
> On 23 Apr 2014 09:10, "Al Harding" <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> +1
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 3:35 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > +1 to this!
>> >
>> > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > I'll second the nomination.
>> > > I think Shaz is a perfect candidate.
>> > >
>> > > @purplecabbage
>> > > risingj.com
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Ross Gerbasi <rg...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Good stuff, Shazron has always been a huge resource, main guy I turn
>> to
>> > for
>> > >> any deeper questions. Just hoping this doesn't cut into the amount of
>> > >> awesome updates and enhancements we see! :)
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> > Geez, see how bad I am at this? I meant Shazron Abdullah not that
>> > other
>> > >> > guy. =S
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair
>> for
>> > the
>> > >> > > Cordova PMC.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and
>> > book
>> > >> > > keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have
>> more
>> > >> > formal
>> > >> > > incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our
>> lightweight
>> > >> > > approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves
>> > sending
>> > >> > an
>> > >> > > email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts
>> > on
>> > >> > > http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if
>> some
>> > day
>> > >> > > there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > In evaluation of my current workload these additional book
>> keeping
>> > >> > > responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that
>> > is
>> > >> not
>> > >> > > fair to Cordova.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to
>> > >> nominate
>> > >> > > Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the
>> project
>> > >> > since
>> > >> > > before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most,
>> > interacts
>> > >> > > directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to
>> > work
>> > >> on
>> > >> > > Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can
>> contribute
>> > >> more
>> > >> > > code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote
>> if
>> > >> > there
>> > >> > > is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin
>> > duties
>> > >> on.
>> > >> > > Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next
>> > week.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> >
>>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Tommy Williams <to...@devgeeks.org>.
A solid +1 from myself as well... Assuming he wants the job :)
On 23 Apr 2014 09:10, "Al Harding" <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 3:35 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > +1 to this!
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I'll second the nomination.
> > > I think Shaz is a perfect candidate.
> > >
> > > @purplecabbage
> > > risingj.com
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Ross Gerbasi <rg...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Good stuff, Shazron has always been a huge resource, main guy I turn
> to
> > for
> > >> any deeper questions. Just hoping this doesn't cut into the amount of
> > >> awesome updates and enhancements we see! :)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Geez, see how bad I am at this? I meant Shazron Abdullah not that
> > other
> > >> > guy. =S
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair
> for
> > the
> > >> > > Cordova PMC.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and
> > book
> > >> > > keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have
> more
> > >> > formal
> > >> > > incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our
> lightweight
> > >> > > approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves
> > sending
> > >> > an
> > >> > > email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts
> > on
> > >> > > http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if
> some
> > day
> > >> > > there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > In evaluation of my current workload these additional book
> keeping
> > >> > > responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that
> > is
> > >> not
> > >> > > fair to Cordova.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to
> > >> nominate
> > >> > > Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the
> project
> > >> > since
> > >> > > before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most,
> > interacts
> > >> > > directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to
> > work
> > >> on
> > >> > > Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can
> contribute
> > >> more
> > >> > > code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote
> if
> > >> > there
> > >> > > is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin
> > duties
> > >> on.
> > >> > > Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next
> > week.
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> >
>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Al Harding <al...@gmail.com>.
+1
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 3:35 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1 to this!
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'll second the nomination.
> > I think Shaz is a perfect candidate.
> >
> > @purplecabbage
> > risingj.com
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Ross Gerbasi <rg...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Good stuff, Shazron has always been a huge resource, main guy I turn to
> for
> >> any deeper questions. Just hoping this doesn't cut into the amount of
> >> awesome updates and enhancements we see! :)
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Geez, see how bad I am at this? I meant Shazron Abdullah not that
> other
> >> > guy. =S
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for
> the
> >> > > Cordova PMC.
> >> > >
> >> > > The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and
> book
> >> > > keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more
> >> > formal
> >> > > incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
> >> > > approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves
> sending
> >> > an
> >> > > email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts
> on
> >> > > http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some
> day
> >> > > there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
> >> > >
> >> > > In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
> >> > > responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that
> is
> >> not
> >> > > fair to Cordova.
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to
> >> nominate
> >> > > Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project
> >> > since
> >> > > before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most,
> interacts
> >> > > directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to
> work
> >> on
> >> > > Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
> >> > >
> >> > > I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute
> >> more
> >> > > code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if
> >> > there
> >> > > is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin
> duties
> >> on.
> >> > > Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next
> week.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>.
+1 to this!
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'll second the nomination.
> I think Shaz is a perfect candidate.
>
> @purplecabbage
> risingj.com
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Ross Gerbasi <rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Good stuff, Shazron has always been a huge resource, main guy I turn to for
>> any deeper questions. Just hoping this doesn't cut into the amount of
>> awesome updates and enhancements we see! :)
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>
>> > Geez, see how bad I am at this? I meant Shazron Abdullah not that other
>> > guy. =S
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the
>> > > Cordova PMC.
>> > >
>> > > The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book
>> > > keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more
>> > formal
>> > > incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
>> > > approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves sending
>> > an
>> > > email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on
>> > > http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day
>> > > there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
>> > >
>> > > In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
>> > > responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is
>> not
>> > > fair to Cordova.
>> > >
>> > > I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to
>> nominate
>> > > Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project
>> > since
>> > > before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
>> > > directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work
>> on
>> > > Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
>> > >
>> > > I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute
>> more
>> > > code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if
>> > there
>> > > is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties
>> on.
>> > > Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
>> > >
>> >
>>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Jesse <pu...@gmail.com>.
I'll second the nomination.
I think Shaz is a perfect candidate.
@purplecabbage
risingj.com
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Ross Gerbasi <rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Good stuff, Shazron has always been a huge resource, main guy I turn to for
> any deeper questions. Just hoping this doesn't cut into the amount of
> awesome updates and enhancements we see! :)
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>
> > Geez, see how bad I am at this? I meant Shazron Abdullah not that other
> > guy. =S
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the
> > > Cordova PMC.
> > >
> > > The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book
> > > keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more
> > formal
> > > incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
> > > approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves sending
> > an
> > > email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on
> > > http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day
> > > there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
> > >
> > > In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
> > > responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is
> not
> > > fair to Cordova.
> > >
> > > I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to
> nominate
> > > Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project
> > since
> > > before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
> > > directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work
> on
> > > Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
> > >
> > > I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute
> more
> > > code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if
> > there
> > > is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties
> on.
> > > Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
> > >
> >
>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Ross Gerbasi <rg...@gmail.com>.
Good stuff, Shazron has always been a huge resource, main guy I turn to for
any deeper questions. Just hoping this doesn't cut into the amount of
awesome updates and enhancements we see! :)
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> Geez, see how bad I am at this? I meant Shazron Abdullah not that other
> guy. =S
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>
> > Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the
> > Cordova PMC.
> >
> > The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book
> > keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more
> formal
> > incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
> > approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves sending
> an
> > email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on
> > http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day
> > there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
> >
> > In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
> > responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is not
> > fair to Cordova.
> >
> > I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to nominate
> > Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project
> since
> > before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
> > directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work on
> > Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
> >
> > I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute more
> > code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if
> there
> > is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties on.
> > Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
> >
>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io>.
Geez, see how bad I am at this? I meant Shazron Abdullah not that other
guy. =S
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the
> Cordova PMC.
>
> The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book
> keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more formal
> incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
> approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves sending an
> email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on
> http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day
> there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
>
> In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
> responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is not
> fair to Cordova.
>
> I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to nominate
> Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project since
> before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
> directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work on
> Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
>
> I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute more
> code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if there
> is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties on.
> Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io>.
I mentioned that I would formally notify the board in which I was
referencing this policy. =|
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> OK, hell has frozen over. Thanks sebb for that!
>
> That's actually insane that you can't quit until the meeting. You can
> normally resign a post by writing a resignation letter in most places.
> Why is this?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 11:13 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 22 April 2014 22:34, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >> Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the
> >> Cordova PMC.
> >>
> >> The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book
> >> keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more
> formal
> >> incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
> >> approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves sending
> an
> >> email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on
> >> http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day
> >> there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
> >>
> >> In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
> >> responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is
> not
> >> fair to Cordova.
> >>
> >> I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to nominate
> >> Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project
> since
> >> before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
> >> directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work
> on
> >> Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
> >>
> >> I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute more
> >> code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if
> there
> >> is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties
> on.
> >> Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
> >
> > Please note that the procedure for changing the PMC chair is not the
> > same as for changing PMC membership.
> > This is because the chair is an officer of the ASF [1].
> > As such, changes to the chair can only occur at a board meeting, and
> > require a formal motion rather than a simple NOTICE.
> > An example template can be found here [2] (requires ASF committer login)
> >
> > [1]
> https://www.apache.org/foundation/faq.html#why-are-PMC-chairs-officers
> > [2]
> https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/board/templates/change-chair-resolution.txt
>
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's actually insane that you can't quit until the meeting. You can
> normally resign a post by writing a resignation letter in most places.
> Why is this?
Brian could resign, but that would leave a vacancy until the Board passes a
resolution appointing a new Chair. It's possible for the Board to act outside
of the monthly meeting, it's just a pain. (See below for gory details
excerpted from the Foundation's bylaws.)
I speculate that making it non-trivial for the Board to change project VPs was
done by design, but I don't know that for sure.
Marvin Humphrey
http://www.apache.org/foundation/bylaws#5.12
Section 5.12. Action Without a Meeting.
Any action required or permitted to be taken at a meeting of the Board of
Directors or of any committee thereof may be taken without a meeting if
all the members of the board or committee, as the case may be, consent
thereto in writing, and such writing is filed with the minutes of the
proceedings of the board or committee. Such consent shall have the same
effect as a unanimous vote.
http://www.apache.org/foundation/bylaws#6.4
Section 6.4. Election and Term.
The officers of the corporation and the members of each existing Project
Management Committee shall be appointed by the Board of Directors or
appointed by an officer empowered by the Board to make such appointment.
Such appointment by the Board of Directors may be made at any regular
or special meeting of the Board...
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>.
OK, hell has frozen over. Thanks sebb for that!
That's actually insane that you can't quit until the meeting. You can
normally resign a post by writing a resignation letter in most places.
Why is this?
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 11:13 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 22 April 2014 22:34, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>> Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the
>> Cordova PMC.
>>
>> The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book
>> keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more formal
>> incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
>> approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves sending an
>> email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on
>> http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day
>> there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
>>
>> In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
>> responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is not
>> fair to Cordova.
>>
>> I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to nominate
>> Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project since
>> before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
>> directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work on
>> Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
>>
>> I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute more
>> code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if there
>> is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties on.
>> Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
>
> Please note that the procedure for changing the PMC chair is not the
> same as for changing PMC membership.
> This is because the chair is an officer of the ASF [1].
> As such, changes to the chair can only occur at a board meeting, and
> require a formal motion rather than a simple NOTICE.
> An example template can be found here [2] (requires ASF committer login)
>
> [1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/faq.html#why-are-PMC-chairs-officers
> [2] https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/board/templates/change-chair-resolution.txt
Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 22 April 2014 22:34, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the
> Cordova PMC.
>
> The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book
> keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more formal
> incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
> approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves sending an
> email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on
> http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day
> there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
>
> In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping
> responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is not
> fair to Cordova.
>
> I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to nominate
> Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project since
> before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
> directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work on
> Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
>
> I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute more
> code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if there
> is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties on.
> Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week.
Please note that the procedure for changing the PMC chair is not the
same as for changing PMC membership.
This is because the chair is an officer of the ASF [1].
As such, changes to the chair can only occur at a board meeting, and
require a formal motion rather than a simple NOTICE.
An example template can be found here [2] (requires ASF committer login)
[1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/faq.html#why-are-PMC-chairs-officers
[2] https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/board/templates/change-chair-resolution.txt