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Posted to dev@lenya.apache.org by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org> on 2006/07/06 20:18:52 UTC
[VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Discussion seems to have settled down on this topic,
so it must be time for a Vote.
This concerns everyone on the dev mailing list,
so please all vote, not just PMC committers.
Review the current draft at http://lenya.zones.apache.org/docu/guidelines.html for the latest version.
Apart from possible minor tweaks, are you happy with the
current content?
Voting ends one week from today, Thursday, July 13, 2006 (UTC time).
http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/customcounter.html?year=2006&month=07&day=13
salu2
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
Thorsten Scherler escribió:
> Discussion seems to have settled down on this topic,
> so it must be time for a Vote.
>
> This concerns everyone on the dev mailing list,
> so please all vote, not just PMC committers.
>
> Review the current draft at http://lenya.zones.apache.org/docu/guidelines.html for the latest version.
>
> Apart from possible minor tweaks, are you happy with the
> current content?
>
+1
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by Joachim Wolfgang Kaltz <jo...@uni-duisburg-essen.de>.
Thorsten Scherler schrieb:
> Discussion seems to have settled down on this topic,
> so it must be time for a Vote.
>
> This concerns everyone on the dev mailing list,
> so please all vote, not just PMC committers.
>
> Review the current draft at http://lenya.zones.apache.org/docu/guidelines.html for the latest version.
>
> Apart from possible minor tweaks, are you happy with the
> current content?
+1
--
Wolfgang
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by Edith Chevrier <ed...@wyona.com>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>Discussion seems to have settled down on this topic,
>so it must be time for a Vote.
>
>This concerns everyone on the dev mailing list,
>so please all vote, not just PMC committers.
>
>Review the current draft at http://lenya.zones.apache.org/docu/guidelines.html for the latest version.
>
>Apart from possible minor tweaks, are you happy with the
>current content?
>
>Voting ends one week from today, Thursday, July 13, 2006 (UTC time).
>http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/customcounter.html?year=2006&month=07&day=13
>
>salu2
>
>
+1
Edith
--
Edith Chevrier
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
edith.chevrier@wyona.com edith@apache.org
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[VOTE-Summary] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
Hi all,
I counted
8 binding +1 and one not binding one.
We have one -1.
Meaning the community accepted in majority the proposal as their project
guidelines. I will remove the draft note on the document and update the
website.
Thanks very much for the great participation in this vote.
salu2
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> Discussion seems to have settled down on this topic,
> so it must be time for a Vote.
>
> This concerns everyone on the dev mailing list,
> so please all vote, not just PMC committers.
>
> Review the current draft at http://lenya.zones.apache.org/docu/guidelines.html for the latest version.
>
> Apart from possible minor tweaks, are you happy with the
> current content?
+1
-- Andreas
--
Andreas Hartmann
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
andreas.hartmann@wyona.com andreas@apache.org
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by Michael Ralston <mi...@ralston.id.au>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> Discussion seems to have settled down on this topic,
> so it must be time for a Vote.
>
> This concerns everyone on the dev mailing list,
> so please all vote, not just PMC committers.
>
> Review the current draft at http://lenya.zones.apache.org/docu/guidelines.html for the latest version.
>
> Apart from possible minor tweaks, are you happy with the
> current content?
>
> Voting ends one week from today, Thursday, July 13, 2006 (UTC time).
> http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/customcounter.html?year=2006&month=07&day=13
>
> salu2
>
+1
Michael R
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
El jue, 06-07-2006 a las 20:18 +0200, Thorsten Scherler escribió:
> Discussion seems to have settled down on this topic,
> so it must be time for a Vote.
>
> This concerns everyone on the dev mailing list,
> so please all vote, not just PMC committers.
>
> Review the current draft at http://lenya.zones.apache.org/docu/guidelines.html for the latest version.
>
> Apart from possible minor tweaks, are you happy with the
> current content?
+1
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
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Re: Michi's guideline feedback (was Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project
Guidelines)
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
El mié, 12-07-2006 a las 09:03 +1000, Michael Ralston escribió:
> I think the current guidelines are a good starting point even though
> Michi has raised some valid points. Should the guidelines be published
> as is, or should Michi's issues be addressed prior to publishing any
> guidelines? I would opt for publishing them as is (hence my +1 vote),
> then gradually refine the guidelines over time.
>
+1
Thanks for pinning it down so clearly.
salu2
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
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Re: Michi's guideline feedback (was Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines)
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Michael Ralston wrote
>
>> - I think the mission of Apache Lenya needs be more detailed, e.g.
>> framework with out of the box samples, scalable, performant, backwards
>> compatible, ... I think we really need to define our goals resp. link
>> to a document which is defining the goals explicitely, otherwise I am
>> afraid this whole thing is pointless.
>
> I think the current mission statement is the most concise possible
> definition of what Lenya is. The mission statement addresses the two
> singly most important aspect of Lenya - open source content management
> - and separation of content and presentation.
>
> This definition does not get bogged down in the details of how this is
> to be accomplished. I think maybe under that mission statement there
> could be a link to another page which explains how we go about
> accomplishing this goal.
that's what I suggested
> But as a simple concise definition of what Lenya's core mission is, I
> think the statement is perfect.
why not remove "separation of content and presentation" as well then?
>
>> Without being negative, but generally speaking I think people haven't
>> really
>> read this document closely and hence just say +1. I hope I am wrong.
>
> I've read the document closely. I don't understand some of the issues
> you have raised,
which ones?
> I think this approach would lead to endless months of discussion
> without actually committing to anything. The proposed guidelines are
> quite large, yet you have only given 10 objections to them. Even if
> these are just the first 10 things you have had time to raise, should
> we discard the rest of the document and start from nothing?
yep
> That sounds like a complete waste of time in my opinion.
we do have time
>
>
> If the project guidelines were a piece of software, would you delay
> releasing it completely until it was completely bug free and everybody
> agreed that it operated exactly the way they wanted?
there will always be bugs, and also the guidelines will have bugs even
if started from scratch and time will change things.
> Or would you release the software, and then improve upon it with each
> new release? Maybe this is a silly question as Lenya hasn't had a new
> release for over a year... and maybe this is the heart of the problem
> with the Lenya community.
well, I don't think you can compare these two things, but yes, we should
try to get out this release ...
Anyway, I am happy to accept the decision of the majority despite I have
a different opinion.
Thanks
Michi
>
>
> Michael R
>
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--
Michael Wechner
Wyona - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: Michi's guideline feedback (was Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines)
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Michael Ralston wrote:
>> Nevertheless I still believe that we should start with a white sheet
>> of paper
>> and vote on every "paragraph" and also attach a reasoning for each
>> paragraph.
> I think this approach would lead to endless months of discussion without
> actually committing to anything. The proposed guidelines are quite
> large, yet you have only given 10 objections to them. Even if these are
> just the first 10 things you have had time to raise, should we discard
> the rest of the document and start from nothing? That sounds like a
> complete waste of time in my opinion.
+1, fully agreed.
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Michi's guideline feedback (was Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines)
Posted by Michael Ralston <mi...@ralston.id.au>.
I think the current guidelines are a good starting point even though
Michi has raised some valid points. Should the guidelines be published
as is, or should Michi's issues be addressed prior to publishing any
guidelines? I would opt for publishing them as is (hence my +1 vote),
then gradually refine the guidelines over time.
> - I think the mission of Apache Lenya needs be more detailed, e.g.
> framework with out of the box samples, scalable, performant, backwards
> compatible, ... I think we really need to define our goals resp. link
> to a document which is defining the goals explicitely, otherwise I am
> afraid this whole thing is pointless.
I think the current mission statement is the most concise possible
definition of what Lenya is. The mission statement addresses the two
singly most important aspect of Lenya - open source content management -
and separation of content and presentation.
This definition does not get bogged down in the details of how this is
to be accomplished. I think maybe under that mission statement there
could be a link to another page which explains how we go about
accomplishing this goal. But as a simple concise definition of what
Lenya's core mission is, I think the statement is perfect.
> Without being negative, but generally speaking I think people haven't
> really
> read this document closely and hence just say +1. I hope I am wrong.
I've read the document closely. I don't understand some of the issues
you have raised, probably as I'm not as active in the community as I
would like to be. But my vote +1 is that I think these guidelines are
appropriate and should be published as is. Once this occurs the
community has committed to something and it is a starting point which
can be revised.
> Nevertheless I still believe that we should start with a white sheet
> of paper
> and vote on every "paragraph" and also attach a reasoning for each
> paragraph.
I think this approach would lead to endless months of discussion without
actually committing to anything. The proposed guidelines are quite
large, yet you have only given 10 objections to them. Even if these are
just the first 10 things you have had time to raise, should we discard
the rest of the document and start from nothing? That sounds like a
complete waste of time in my opinion.
If the project guidelines were a piece of software, would you delay
releasing it completely until it was completely bug free and everybody
agreed that it operated exactly the way they wanted? Or would you
release the software, and then improve upon it with each new release?
Maybe this is a silly question as Lenya hasn't had a new release for
over a year... and maybe this is the heart of the problem with the Lenya
community.
Michael R
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> >Michael Wechner wrote:
> >>
> >>but I think it should be approved by the PMC (see our bad at Lenya
> >>re wrong statements ...) and maybe the ASF wants to consider that this
> >>would be a good thing and I think it actually would help the PMC chair
> >>for his/her own good.
> >
> >Take me for example at Apache Forrest. I run a draft
> >by our private at f.a.o list about a week before it is due,
> >asking if i have missed anything or should change anything.
> >But it still does not need to be approved by the PMC. It is
> >my report.
>
> do you want it to be your report? And if so, why?
Many reasons: Because it is the job of the "chair".
Because i agree with the ASF that it should be this way.
Because i can see that otherwise an impasse could be reached.
Because the board cannot deal with a whole committee.
There are many other reasons in those documents
referred to earlier. Some major reasons are listed here:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/faq.html#why-are-PMC-chairs-officers
If you have issues with the defined job, then please
take it up with the ASF membership.
-David
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
David Crossley wrote:
>
>>but I think it should be approved by the PMC (see our bad at Lenya
>>re wrong statements ...) and maybe the ASF wants to consider that this
>>would be a good thing and I think it actually would help the PMC chair
>>for his/her own good.
>>
>>
>
>Take me for example at Apache Forrest. I run a draft
>by our private at f.a.o list about a week before it is due,
>asking if i have missed anything or should change anything.
>But it still does not need to be approved by the PMC. It is
>my report.
>
>
do you want it to be your report? And if so, why?
Michi
>-David
>
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>
>
>
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
+41 44 272 91 61
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
>
> well, I am happy to aceept that, but I think it's not good at all, because
> I think the PMC chair has too much conflicts of interests ...
It is a hard job to balance those.
> >The quarterly report is only between the chair and the
> >board. The PMC don't need to "approve" it.
> >See paragraph #3 at http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#chair
>
> but I think it should be approved by the PMC (see our bad at Lenya
> re wrong statements ...) and maybe the ASF wants to consider that this
> would be a good thing and I think it actually would help the PMC chair
> for his/her own good.
Take me for example at Apache Forrest. I run a draft
by our private at f.a.o list about a week before it is due,
asking if i have missed anything or should change anything.
But it still does not need to be approved by the PMC. It is
my report.
-David
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
David Crossley wrote:
>Sorry for popping in to Lenya dev@ out-of-the-blue.
>I don't read the lists. This month's board report drew
>my attention. I see some misunderstandings about the
>role of the Chair. I will try to help to clarify.
>
>Michael Wechner wrote:
>
>
>>Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Michael Wechner escribi??:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>
>[ snip ]
>
>
>
>>>>- Re the PMC chair: What means "the chair has the power to establish rules
>>>>and procedures"? Isn't that the role of the PMC itself?! And what means
>>>>"including of the PMC itself"? Hmm?
>>>>
>>>>
>
>The PMC is "is tasked with the creation of a set of
>bylaws intended to encourage open development and
>increased participation".
>http://lenya.apache.org/resolution.html
>
>However the above quote is also correct. It is ultimately
>the chair's responsibility.
>
>The position of the chair is clearly defined in these
>top-level documents. Specifically it is in the ASF Bylaws
>and you cannot go against that.
>See http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#pmc
>Be sure to follow all of the links. Specifically the
>ASF Bylaws link and the two email links in paragraph #4
>where Dirk and Greg clearly explain the exact issues that
>Michi is raising. There is no point me try to paraphrase
>or quote from them.
>
>
well, I am happy to aceept that, but I think it's not good at all, because
I think the PMC chair has too much conflicts of interests ...
>It sounds like people here have not understood those documents.
>
>
I guess people didn't read those documents (myself included) ...
>
>
>>>The chair is the ASF officer in charge (like a chairman of a board of a
>>>company). She has the last word and can overrule the pmc.
>>>
>>>
>>I am -1 on this. What would be agreeable to me is that if the PMC is
>>undecisive which means for instance 3 versus 3 then the PMC chair can decide.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Please see
>>>http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#pmc for more detailed
>>>explanation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>- I think the Quartely reports need to be approved by the PMC before
>>>>sending to the board
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Yes I think this is a good idea, but why didn't you raised before.
>>>
>>>
>>I raised it several times on the PMC mailing list
>>
>>
>
>The quarterly report is only between the chair and the
>board. The PMC don't need to "approve" it.
>See paragraph #3 at http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#chair
>
>
but I think it should be approved by the PMC (see our bad at Lenya
re wrong statements ...) and maybe the ASF wants to consider that this
would be a good thing and I think it actually would help the PMC chair
for his/her
own good.
>
>
>>>Now it will have to wait till after the vote
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>- Electing PMC members: I think the general rule should be that
>>>>committers are not PMC members from the very beginning when they become
>>>>committers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>You can raise this later.
>>>
>>>
>>I also raised this several times in discussion before
>>
>>
>
>Each PMC needs to decide how they do this. Some have
>Committers == PMC members, others don't.
>
>
I think committers should become PMC members in the "long" run, but
shouldn't
be PMC members by default
>
>
>>>>- Voting: Conensus means to me that everyone agrees or do I
>>>>misunderstand consesus?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>No, if you really mean *everyone* (like in all active committer have to
>>>vote), that is "Unanimous consensus".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>- Voting: Why the term lazy majority and not just majority?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>This points out that not all pmc member have to vote.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>- Veto: why does the pmc chair has the power to decide if a veto is
>>>>valid or not
>>>>
>>>>
>>>it comes with the role. see above link:
>>>"...has the power to establish rules and procedures for the day to day
>>>management of the communities for which the PMC is responsible..."
>>>
>>>
>>again, I am -1 on this, because I do not understand why the PMC chair should
>>have so much power in this type of community as Lenya is
>>
>>
>
>Someone needs to be able to break a deadlock.
>
>
agreed and I even said so within another email
Michi
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
+41 44 272 91 61
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Sorry for popping in to Lenya dev@ out-of-the-blue.
I don't read the lists. This month's board report drew
my attention. I see some misunderstandings about the
role of the Chair. I will try to help to clarify.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> >Michael Wechner escribi??:
> >>Thorsten Scherler wrote:
[ snip ]
> >>- Re the PMC chair: What means "the chair has the power to establish rules
> >>and procedures"? Isn't that the role of the PMC itself?! And what means
> >>"including of the PMC itself"? Hmm?
The PMC is "is tasked with the creation of a set of
bylaws intended to encourage open development and
increased participation".
http://lenya.apache.org/resolution.html
However the above quote is also correct. It is ultimately
the chair's responsibility.
The position of the chair is clearly defined in these
top-level documents. Specifically it is in the ASF Bylaws
and you cannot go against that.
See http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#pmc
Be sure to follow all of the links. Specifically the
ASF Bylaws link and the two email links in paragraph #4
where Dirk and Greg clearly explain the exact issues that
Michi is raising. There is no point me try to paraphrase
or quote from them.
It sounds like people here have not understood those documents.
> >The chair is the ASF officer in charge (like a chairman of a board of a
> >company). She has the last word and can overrule the pmc.
>
> I am -1 on this. What would be agreeable to me is that if the PMC is
> undecisive which means for instance 3 versus 3 then the PMC chair can decide.
>
> >Please see
> >http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#pmc for more detailed
> >explanation.
> >
> >>- I think the Quartely reports need to be approved by the PMC before
> >>sending to the board
> >
> >Yes I think this is a good idea, but why didn't you raised before.
>
> I raised it several times on the PMC mailing list
The quarterly report is only between the chair and the
board. The PMC don't need to "approve" it.
See paragraph #3 at http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#chair
> >Now it will have to wait till after the vote
> >
> >>- Electing PMC members: I think the general rule should be that
> >>committers are not PMC members from the very beginning when they become
> >>committers.
> >
> >You can raise this later.
>
> I also raised this several times in discussion before
Each PMC needs to decide how they do this. Some have
Committers == PMC members, others don't.
> >>- Voting: Conensus means to me that everyone agrees or do I
> >>misunderstand consesus?
> >
> >No, if you really mean *everyone* (like in all active committer have to
> >vote), that is "Unanimous consensus".
> >
> >>- Voting: Why the term lazy majority and not just majority?
> >
> >This points out that not all pmc member have to vote.
> >
> >>- Veto: why does the pmc chair has the power to decide if a veto is
> >>valid or not
> >
> >it comes with the role. see above link:
> >"...has the power to establish rules and procedures for the day to day
> >management of the communities for which the PMC is responsible..."
>
> again, I am -1 on this, because I do not understand why the PMC chair should
> have so much power in this type of community as Lenya is
Someone needs to be able to break a deadlock.
Look at it rather as the PMC chair is the poor bugger
that needs to do the administrative stuff, than as
a person with power. They had better use it wisely.
-David
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>El lun, 10-07-2006 a las 23:41 +0200, Michael Wechner escribió:
>
>
>>Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Discussion seems to have settled down on this topic,
>>>so it must be time for a Vote.
>>>
>>>This concerns everyone on the dev mailing list,
>>>so please all vote, not just PMC committers.
>>>
>>>Review the current draft at http://lenya.zones.apache.org/docu/guidelines.html for the latest version.
>>>
>>>Apart from possible minor tweaks, are you happy with the
>>>current content?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>As a preamble I would like to note, that I am currently on paternity
>>leave and will not be able to be very responsive until next week, but
>>nevertheless I will try to give some feedback:
>>
>>
>>
>
>I wish you have done this in the feedback time prior to this vote (like
>everyone else). Doing it in the vote is very deconstructive
>
I voted -1 and explained why.
> and it seems
>that you have not read the proposal when we ask for it.
>
>
what else should I do if we never really discussed it?
>
>
>>- I think the mission of Apache Lenya needs be more detailed, e.g.
>>framework with out of the box samples, scalable, performant, backwards
>>compatible, ... I think we really need to define our goals resp. link
>>to a document which is defining the goals explicitely, otherwise I am
>>afraid this whole thing is pointless.
>>
>>
>
>If you feel that we should redefine the mission statement (like you
>hinted in many threads) then please raise it in a separate thread, maybe
>present a proposal and we can discuss on it.
>
>
ok, will do so
>
>
>>- Re emeritus: What means "not contributing in any form"?
>>
>>
>
>no mail, no commit to the code base, no nothing.
>
>
if that's the meaning that we should add this definition, otherwise
discussions will happen
again and again ....
>
>
>>- Re the PMC chair: What means "the chair has the power to establish rules
>>and procedures"? Isn't that the role of the PMC itself?! And what means
>>"including of the PMC itself"? Hmm?
>>
>>
>
>The chair is the ASF officer in charge (like a chairman of a board of a
>company). She has the last word and can overrule the pmc.
>
I am -1 on this. What would be agreeable to me is that if the PMC is
undecisive which
means for instance 3 versus 3 then the PMC chair can decide.
> Please see
>http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#pmc for more detailed
>explanation.
>
>
>
>>- I think the Quartely reports need to be approved by the PMC before sending
>>to the board
>>
>>
>
>Yes I think this is a good idea, but why didn't you raised before.
>
I raised it several times on the PMC mailing list
> Now
>it will have to wait till after the vote
>
>
>
>
>>- Electing PMC members: I think the general rule should be that
>>committers are not PMC members from the very beginning when they become
>>committers.
>>
>>
>
>You can raise this later.
>
>
I also raised this several times in discussion before
>
>
>>- Voting: Conensus means to me that everyone agrees or do I
>>misunderstand consesus?
>>
>>
>
>No, if you really mean *everyone* (like in all active committer have to
>vote), that is "Unanimous consensus".
>
>
>
>>- Voting: Why the term lazy majority and not just majority?
>>
>>
>
>This points out that not all pmc member have to vote.
>
>
>
>>- Veto: why does the pmc chair has the power to decide if a veto is
>>valid or not
>>
>>
>
>it comes with the role. see above link:
>"...has the power to establish rules and procedures for the day to day
>management of the communities for which the PMC is responsible..."
>
>
again, I am -1 on this, because I do not understand why the PMC chair should
have so much power in this type of community as Lenya is
>
>
>>- voting procedure: i guess not all votes will be done on the dev list?!
>>
>>
>
>¿?
>
>http://lenya.zones.apache.org/docu/guidelines.html
>
>"...Where necessary, PMC voting may take place on the private PMC
>mailing list..."
>
>
>
I guess I have missed this sentence
>
>
>
>>- code management: why are old branches unmaintained?!
>>
>>
>
>Why maintain them when they are old?
>
>
old doesn't mean these are useless and often a lot of people
still use them and send it patches.
>
>
>>as a result of my questions and remarks I am -1 re the content of
>>these guidelines
>>
>>
>>
>
>You had the change to comment on this guidelines a long time. You
>decided to wait till it came to the vote.
>
>
was the vote announced resp. discussion closed?
>Why?
>
>
see above
>
>
>>Without being negative, but generally speaking I think people haven't really
>>read this document closely and hence just say +1. I hope I am wrong.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Interesting now all +1's are uninformed and have not read the
>guidelines.
>
>
let them speak for themselves
>
>
>>Nevertheless I still believe that we should start with a white sheet of
>>paper
>>and vote on every "paragraph" and also attach a reasoning for each
>>paragraph.
>>
>>
>
>See the thread from Michael Ralston regarding this point.
>
>
so I assume you have the same opinion as Michael Ralston.
Michi
>salu2
>
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
+41 44 272 91 61
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
El lun, 10-07-2006 a las 23:41 +0200, Michael Wechner escribió:
> Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>
> >Discussion seems to have settled down on this topic,
> >so it must be time for a Vote.
> >
> >This concerns everyone on the dev mailing list,
> >so please all vote, not just PMC committers.
> >
> >Review the current draft at http://lenya.zones.apache.org/docu/guidelines.html for the latest version.
> >
> >Apart from possible minor tweaks, are you happy with the
> >current content?
> >
> >
>
> As a preamble I would like to note, that I am currently on paternity
> leave and will not be able to be very responsive until next week, but
> nevertheless I will try to give some feedback:
>
I wish you have done this in the feedback time prior to this vote (like
everyone else). Doing it in the vote is very deconstructive and it seems
that you have not read the proposal when we ask for it.
> - I think the mission of Apache Lenya needs be more detailed, e.g.
> framework with out of the box samples, scalable, performant, backwards
> compatible, ... I think we really need to define our goals resp. link
> to a document which is defining the goals explicitely, otherwise I am
> afraid this whole thing is pointless.
If you feel that we should redefine the mission statement (like you
hinted in many threads) then please raise it in a separate thread, maybe
present a proposal and we can discuss on it.
>
> - Re emeritus: What means "not contributing in any form"?
no mail, no commit to the code base, no nothing.
>
> - Re the PMC chair: What means "the chair has the power to establish rules
> and procedures"? Isn't that the role of the PMC itself?! And what means
> "including of the PMC itself"? Hmm?
The chair is the ASF officer in charge (like a chairman of a board of a
company). She has the last word and can overrule the pmc. Please see
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#pmc for more detailed
explanation.
>
> - I think the Quartely reports need to be approved by the PMC before sending
> to the board
Yes I think this is a good idea, but why didn't you raised before. Now
it will have to wait till after the vote.
>
> - Electing PMC members: I think the general rule should be that
> committers are not PMC members from the very beginning when they become
> committers.
You can raise this later.
>
> - Voting: Conensus means to me that everyone agrees or do I
> misunderstand consesus?
No, if you really mean *everyone* (like in all active committer have to
vote), that is "Unanimous consensus".
> - Voting: Why the term lazy majority and not just majority?
This points out that not all pmc member have to vote.
>
> - Veto: why does the pmc chair has the power to decide if a veto is
> valid or not
it comes with the role. see above link:
"...has the power to establish rules and procedures for the day to day
management of the communities for which the PMC is responsible..."
>
> - voting procedure: i guess not all votes will be done on the dev list?!
¿?
http://lenya.zones.apache.org/docu/guidelines.html
"...Where necessary, PMC voting may take place on the private PMC
mailing list..."
>
> - code management: why are old branches unmaintained?!
Why maintain them when they are old?
>
> as a result of my questions and remarks I am -1 re the content of
> these guidelines
>
You had the change to comment on this guidelines a long time. You
decided to wait till it came to the vote.
Why?
> Without being negative, but generally speaking I think people haven't really
> read this document closely and hence just say +1. I hope I am wrong.
>
Interesting now all +1's are uninformed and have not read the
guidelines.
> Nevertheless I still believe that we should start with a white sheet of
> paper
> and vote on every "paragraph" and also attach a reasoning for each
> paragraph.
See the thread from Michael Ralston regarding this point.
salu2
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>Discussion seems to have settled down on this topic,
>so it must be time for a Vote.
>
>This concerns everyone on the dev mailing list,
>so please all vote, not just PMC committers.
>
>Review the current draft at http://lenya.zones.apache.org/docu/guidelines.html for the latest version.
>
>Apart from possible minor tweaks, are you happy with the
>current content?
>
>
As a preamble I would like to note, that I am currently on paternity
leave and will not be able to be very responsive until next week, but
nevertheless I will try to give some feedback:
- I think the mission of Apache Lenya needs be more detailed, e.g.
framework with out of the box samples, scalable, performant, backwards
compatible, ... I think we really need to define our goals resp. link
to a document which is defining the goals explicitely, otherwise I am
afraid this whole thing is pointless.
- Re emeritus: What means "not contributing in any form"?
- Re the PMC chair: What means "the chair has the power to establish rules
and procedures"? Isn't that the role of the PMC itself?! And what means
"including of the PMC itself"? Hmm?
- I think the Quartely reports need to be approved by the PMC before sending
to the board
- Electing PMC members: I think the general rule should be that
committers are not PMC members from the very beginning when they become
committers.
- Voting: Conensus means to me that everyone agrees or do I
misunderstand consesus?
- Voting: Why the term lazy majority and not just majority?
- Veto: why does the pmc chair has the power to decide if a veto is
valid or not
- voting procedure: i guess not all votes will be done on the dev list?!
- code management: why are old branches unmaintained?!
as a result of my questions and remarks I am -1 re the content of
these guidelines
Without being negative, but generally speaking I think people haven't really
read this document closely and hence just say +1. I hope I am wrong.
Nevertheless I still believe that we should start with a white sheet of
paper
and vote on every "paragraph" and also attach a reasoning for each
paragraph.
Thanks
Michi
>Voting ends one week from today, Thursday, July 13, 2006 (UTC time).
>http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/customcounter.html?year=2006&month=07&day=13
>
>salu2
>
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
+41 44 272 91 61
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by Doug Chestnut <dh...@virginia.edu>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> Discussion seems to have settled down on this topic,
> so it must be time for a Vote.
>
> This concerns everyone on the dev mailing list,
> so please all vote, not just PMC committers.
>
> Review the current draft at http://lenya.zones.apache.org/docu/guidelines.html for the latest version.
>
> Apart from possible minor tweaks, are you happy with the
> current content?
>
> Voting ends one week from today, Thursday, July 13, 2006 (UTC time).
> http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/customcounter.html?year=2006&month=07&day=13
>
> salu2
+1
--Doug
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by Jann Forrer <ja...@id.unizh.ch>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> Discussion seems to have settled down on this topic,
> so it must be time for a Vote.
>
> This concerns everyone on the dev mailing list,
> so please all vote, not just PMC committers.
>
> Review the current draft at http://lenya.zones.apache.org/docu/guidelines.html for the latest version.
>
> Apart from possible minor tweaks, are you happy with the
> current content?
>
+1
Jann
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
El jue, 06-07-2006 a las 14:45 -0400, Gregor J. Rothfuss escribió:
> Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> > Discussion seems to have settled down on this topic,
> > so it must be time for a Vote.
> >
> > This concerns everyone on the dev mailing list,
> > so please all vote, not just PMC committers.
> >
> > Review the current draft at http://lenya.zones.apache.org/docu/guidelines.html for the latest version.
> >
> > Apart from possible minor tweaks, are you happy with the
> > current content?
>
> i am, but we should remove the fixme at the bottom. we incorporated them
> into the latest draft.
I fixed that.
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> Discussion seems to have settled down on this topic,
> so it must be time for a Vote.
>
> This concerns everyone on the dev mailing list,
> so please all vote, not just PMC committers.
>
> Review the current draft at http://lenya.zones.apache.org/docu/guidelines.html for the latest version.
>
> Apart from possible minor tweaks, are you happy with the
> current content?
i am, but we should remove the fixme at the bottom. we incorporated them
into the latest draft.
otherwise,
+1
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by Josias Thöny <jo...@wyona.com>.
On Thu, 2006-07-06 at 20:18 +0200, Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> Discussion seems to have settled down on this topic,
> so it must be time for a Vote.
>
> This concerns everyone on the dev mailing list,
> so please all vote, not just PMC committers.
>
> Review the current draft at http://lenya.zones.apache.org/docu/guidelines.html for the latest version.
>
> Apart from possible minor tweaks, are you happy with the
> current content?
+1
- Josias
>
> Voting ends one week from today, Thursday, July 13, 2006 (UTC time).
> http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/customcounter.html?year=2006&month=07&day=13
>
> salu2
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