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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org> on 2009/08/05 05:16:57 UTC

Re: [appeal] Help Us Graduate!

On Nov 21, 2008 William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
>
> I'd like to suggest a thread on general@ for each of those projects
> who believe they are close to graduation, but not sure what to do
> next.  To kick off such a thread, email *me* with a summary (like
> you do for status reports) of where your project is now in terms
> of community, code, releases and functionality.  Don't forget to tell
> everyone *what* the code does, the language it's coded in, etc :)
> 
> Most importantly, point out what help *you* think it needs.
> (Once launch the discussion your fellow podling members can offer
> their perceptions and opinion about what's needed, so we'll get a
> balanced view.)
> 
> Here are the rules to keep this fun...
> 
>   Reply to *me*, not the list, so I can put one podling up for help
>   at a time.  Keep this subject so I can keep them in their own folder.
>   If I see something missing, I'll help with editing the appeal so that
>   everyone has enough information to jump in if they want to help.  This
>   also lets you remain anonymous, if you prefer - just tell me upfront.
> 
>   Only one of these at a time, let's give each podling our undivided
>   attention on general@.  I'll post the first appeal just as soon as
>   I get it.
> 
>   Exactly one week of general@ discussion to help solicit the advise,
>   help needed, advise, and possibly attract some other helpers reading
>   general@ to your podling-dev@ list.  Then let another have their turn.
> 
>   After a week, I'll kick off the second podling based on whichever
>   appeal is next in my email queue, then the third, etc etc.  Betting
>   we can discuss and help out four podlings before we take a break
>   for the holidays, and pick back up in January.
> 
> Anyone want to give this a try?

I am very disappointed that no podlings took up your suggestion.

I wonder if the various podling developers are attentive
to this general@ list.

-David


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Fwd: [appeal] Help JSPWiki Graduate!

Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.

Hi Janne,

I think you will find releasing code from Apache to be a bit  
frustrating but at the end worthwhile.

It really is hard to get all of the legal requirements completed  
without a few trips playing the incubator release fetch-a-rock game.

Oh, and it would be nice if the code actually worked. ;-)

I have confidence that JSPWiki can make a release and graduate in  
pretty short order.

Craig

Begin forwarded message:

>> Personally, I would like to get most of the issues looked at in  
>> advance so that we wouldn't have to bump our heads against the "oh,  
>> but your release is missing X, do it all again" too many times.
>>
>> /Janne
>>
>

Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!

Re: [appeal] Help JSPWiki Graduate!

Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.

Janne Jalkanen wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> >Janne Jalkanen wrote:
> >>
> >>Yes, we're keeping our task list in JIRA instead of the web page,
> >>simply because it's a lot easier, and encourages participation more
> >>than a static HTML file somewhere.
> >
> >I know. However, that page is what the incubation docs ask for.
> >Remember that the Incubator PMC (all volunteers with no time)
> >currently has 38 projects to oversee. We must have such information
> >in a consistent place and format.
> 
> True; I added a JIRA issue on it. But it does not have to be updated  
> until right before graduation, yes?

If it was me, i would be doing it often during incubation,
for the various reasons elaborated earlier. I would want to
make it easier for people to find and review the project,
especially PMC members, but also anyone who is interested
in becoming a developer.

-David

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Re: [appeal] Help JSPWiki Graduate!

Posted by Janne Jalkanen <Ja...@ecyrd.com>.

On Aug 10, 2009, at 06:49 , David Crossley wrote:

> Gee, i hope that more people will assist with this offer
> to review your project status. That was supposed to be
> your week to have some special attention.

It's holiday season - I myself haven't had anything but cellphone  
access to the intahweb until this weekend ;-)

>> Yes, we're keeping our task list in JIRA instead of the web page,
>> simply because it's a lot easier, and encourages participation more
>> than a static HTML file somewhere.
>
> I know. However, that page is what the incubation docs ask for.
> Remember that the Incubator PMC (all volunteers with no time)
> currently has 38 projects to oversee. We must have such information
> in a consistent place and format.

True; I added a JIRA issue on it. But it does not have to be updated  
until right before graduation, yes?

https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/JSPWIKI-588

> That is a high-level summary, whereas your Jira can provide
> detail for some tasks.

A good idea would be to add the links.

> I suggest adding a link to it alongside all other proposals
> at http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/

Done.

>> OK, good.  And then a script copies it in the right place during
>> release process, I take it?
>
> See general instructions in
> http://www.apache.org/dev/#web
> http://www.apache.org/dev/project-site.html
>
> No, the websites are managed in SVN. Your project's
> committer does ssh to the server and deliberately does
> an 'svn up' (of course after initial checkout) in
> /www/www.apache.org/dist/incubator/jspwiki/

Yes, that's what I meant - someone must have a release script which  
checks out the necessary bits from SVN, builds the release and  
deposits it in a right place.  Anybody have a good example of such a  
script?

> I meant adding the KEYS file to that distribution area
> as explained by the various "How to ASF mirror" docs.

Gotcha.

/Janne

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Re: [appeal] Help JSPWiki Graduate!

Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.

Gee, i hope that more people will assist with this offer
to review your project status. That was supposed to be
your week to have some special attention.

More below ...

Janne Jalkanen wrote:
> >The podling Status page hasn't been updated in ages.
> >http://incubator.apache.org/projects/jspwiki.html
> >Personally i would at least add some News items in there.
> >That would help to encourage more participants and helps
> >the IPMC at graduation review time.
> >There are some items that i expect are already done.
> >Investigate some other projects status files.
> 
> Yes, we're keeping our task list in JIRA instead of the web page,  
> simply because it's a lot easier, and encourages participation more  
> than a static HTML file somewhere.

I know. However, that page is what the incubation docs ask for.
Remember that the Incubator PMC (all volunteers with no time)
currently has 38 projects to oversee. We must have such information
in a consistent place and format.

That is a high-level summary, whereas your Jira can provide
detail for some tasks.

>  We should probably have a link to  
> the relevant JIRA issues so that the info is in one place (as you well  
> know, information kept in multiple locations is always out of date).
> 
> We have multiple news channels out there (a blog, the wiki, an a  
> twitter account).  So perhaps we should just feed the Twitter news  
> stream in a badge onto the page?
> 
> >Clutch shows that there is one new committer since entry.
> 
> It should show two new committers; Harry Metske and Florian Holeczek.   
> Don't know why that is.

Hmmm, but i just showed you in the next sentence.

> >It gets that from the status News section. I tried to find
> >your Incubator Proposal wiki page and compare with the current
> >list of committers, but could not find it.
> 
> The incubator proposal wiki page is at 
> http://www.jspwiki.org/wiki/ApacheJSPWikiProposal

I suggest adding a link to it alongside all other proposals
at http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/
In that way, Incubator PMC members can readily see it
when it comes time for any review.

> >and provide decent patches. Getting more committers
> >should encourage others.
> 
> True...
> 
> >I suggest practicing ahead of time, as it will be less
> >frustrating when you go for the real release. Note down
> >your steps. Look around other projects and TLPs - many
> >have notes about their release process so that other devs
> >can assist and can do it themselves next time.
> 
> Releasing is a process we've done over many times :-).

Of course, but not here at the ASF.

My suggestions were to assist you to avoid the trap of
not having some things ready, therefore your first attempt
at an ASF release might get held up.

> >Most say that whoever is designated the Release Manager
> >needs to be prepared to put in a large amount of time.
> 
> Unfortunately, nobody over here has a large amount of time available :- 
> (.  JSPWiki is *fully* voluntary, which means that other priorities  
> are more important often.  This BTW explains our very long incubation  
> time as well.

Same for many projects. That is one reason why you need to
encourage new committers/PMC members and so help to spread
the knowledge and the administrative workload.

> >License headers:
> >I glanced at some files. Looks okay. If not already done,
> >then i suggest running RAT or using other tools from the
> >"committers" repository.
> 
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/JSPWIKI-545
> 
> >I see that your "LICENSE" file includes references to
> >the supporting products licenses. Personally i think that
> >that is a reasonable solution to a hard maintenance problem.
> >Others say that we are required to display actual text of
> >all licenses there.
> 
> Yes, we chose to put the actual licenses under doc/ with the LICENSE  
> file being a reference to them.  Otherwise it becomes a real PITA to  
> maintain, esp. considering that we've been changing our support  
> libraries quite a lot recently.
> 
> >Hmmm, i think that this file is intended for actual
> >notices that are requested in the various supporting products
> >licenses.
> 
> Never really knew the purpose :-)

There is probably some link in the incubation documentation.
Follow:
http://www.apache.org/dev/#licenses
leads to:
http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html#notice

> >One thing that you can get ready prior to release
> >is the distribution area at w.a.o/dist/incubator/jspwiki/
> 
> Gotcha.
> 
> >Look around other TLPs. Many have HEADER.html etc. files.
> >(Yes i know that not many other incubating projects do it.)
> >For people who stumble directly to mirrors or worse,
> >directly to w.a.o/dist/ space, rather than going via your
> >project's download page, these notices encourage them to
> >download from the mirrors instead, and provide instructions
> >for download verification. For example see Forrest.
> >We store those ancillary files in our SVN.
> 
> OK, good.  And then a script copies it in the right place during  
> release process, I take it?

See general instructions in
http://www.apache.org/dev/#web
http://www.apache.org/dev/project-site.html

No, the websites are managed in SVN. Your project's
committer does ssh to the server and deliberately does
an 'svn up' (of course after initial checkout) in
/www/www.apache.org/dist/incubator/jspwiki/

Note that that is just the HEADER.html and README.html
and KEYS file that i am talking about. Actual distribution
artifacts are not stored in SVN.

Anyway, as suggested, look at other projects and the
mirror docs.

> >I am not sure what the requirements are to notify that
> >the release is by a project in incubation. There are some
> >docs at incubator.apache.org site. See the mirror headers
> >at w.a.o/dist/incubator/ top-level. There is some disclaimer
> >text there that you might like to use too.
> 
> Yes, it's something that we've been wondering...  Our release scheme  
> will look interesting with a version numbering such as "JSPWiki-3.0.0- 
> alpha-1-incubating". ;-)
> 
> >The KEYS file is something else that you can get ready ahead
> >of release time. Even if it only contains the signature of
> >the Release Manager. Better with more, of course.
> 
> It should be up to date already.

I meant adding the KEYS file to that distribution area
as explained by the various "How to ASF mirror" docs.

> >Anyway, i hope that helps a little to ease your next phase.
> 
> Thanks; that should help!
> 
> One interesting question is what we should do to "jspwiki.org" domain.  
> I'm quite willing to give it to ASF, no worries, just to ease any  
> potential trademark issues; but whether ASF wants it is another matter.

That desrves its own discussion thread.

-David

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Re: [appeal] Help JSPWiki Graduate!

Posted by Janne Jalkanen <ja...@ecyrd.com>.

> The podling Status page hasn't been updated in ages.
> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/jspwiki.html
> Personally i would at least add some News items in there.
> That would help to encourage more participants and helps
> the IPMC at graduation review time.
> There are some items that i expect are already done.
> Investigate some other projects status files.

Yes, we're keeping our task list in JIRA instead of the web page,  
simply because it's a lot easier, and encourages participation more  
than a static HTML file somewhere.  We should probably have a link to  
the relevant JIRA issues so that the info is in one place (as you well  
know, information kept in multiple locations is always out of date).

We have multiple news channels out there (a blog, the wiki, an a  
twitter account).  So perhaps we should just feed the Twitter news  
stream in a badge onto the page?

> Clutch shows that there is one new committer since entry.

It should show two new committers; Harry Metske and Florian Holeczek.   
Don't know why that is.

> It gets that from the status News section. I tried to find
> your Incubator Proposal wiki page and compare with the current
> list of committers, but could not find it.

The incubator proposal wiki page is at http://www.jspwiki.org/wiki/ApacheJSPWikiProposal

> and provide decent patches. Getting more committers
> should encourage others.

True...

> I suggest practicing ahead of time, as it will be less
> frustrating when you go for the real release. Note down
> your steps. Look around other projects and TLPs - many
> have notes about their release process so that other devs
> can assist and can do it themselves next time.

Releasing is a process we've done over many times :-).

> Most say that whoever is designated the Release Manager
> needs to be prepared to put in a large amount of time.

Unfortunately, nobody over here has a large amount of time available :- 
(.  JSPWiki is *fully* voluntary, which means that other priorities  
are more important often.  This BTW explains our very long incubation  
time as well.

> License headers:
> I glanced at some files. Looks okay. If not already done,
> then i suggest running RAT or using other tools from the
> "committers" repository.

https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/JSPWIKI-545

> I see that your "LICENSE" file includes references to
> the supporting products licenses. Personally i think that
> that is a reasonable solution to a hard maintenance problem.
> Others say that we are required to display actual text of
> all licenses there.

Yes, we chose to put the actual licenses under doc/ with the LICENSE  
file being a reference to them.  Otherwise it becomes a real PITA to  
maintain, esp. considering that we've been changing our support  
libraries quite a lot recently.

> Hmmm, i think that this file is intended for actual
> notices that are requested in the various supporting products
> licenses.

Never really knew the purpose :-)

> One thing that you can get ready prior to release
> is the distribution area at w.a.o/dist/incubator/jspwiki/

Gotcha.

> Look around other TLPs. Many have HEADER.html etc. files.
> (Yes i know that not many other incubating projects do it.)
> For people who stumble directly to mirrors or worse,
> directly to w.a.o/dist/ space, rather than going via your
> project's download page, these notices encourage them to
> download from the mirrors instead, and provide instructions
> for download verification. For example see Forrest.
> We store those ancillary files in our SVN.

OK, good.  And then a script copies it in the right place during  
release process, I take it?

> I am not sure what the requirements are to notify that
> the release is by a project in incubation. There are some
> docs at incubator.apache.org site. See the mirror headers
> at w.a.o/dist/incubator/ top-level. There is some disclaimer
> text there that you might like to use too.

Yes, it's something that we've been wondering...  Our release scheme  
will look interesting with a version numbering such as "JSPWiki-3.0.0- 
alpha-1-incubating". ;-)

> The KEYS file is something else that you can get ready ahead
> of release time. Even if it only contains the signature of
> the Release Manager. Better with more, of course.

It should be up to date already.

> Anyway, i hope that helps a little to ease your next phase.

Thanks; that should help!

One interesting question is what we should do to "jspwiki.org" domain.  
I'm quite willing to give it to ASF, no worries, just to ease any  
potential trademark issues; but whether ASF wants it is another matter.

/Janne

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Re: [appeal] Help JSPWiki Graduate!

Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.

Craig L Russell wrote:
> Janne:
> >
> >*grin*
> >
> >I completely missed this email the first time around. I think  
> >JSPWiki would certainly benefit from the attention ...

Fantastic. I am so glad that i restarted Bill's thread.

> >close to having all the bits and pieces in place (minus a release or  
> >two).  It's just that we're slightly unsure as to what to do... When  
> >I collected the list of Things To Do Before Graduation 
> >(https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&mode=hide&sorter/order=DESC&sorter/field=priority&resolution=-1&pid=12310732&fixfor=12313986 
> >), I think I found at least two, if not three, separate lists.

Yes the Incubator documentation certainly needs refinement.
Please point out problems (or fix it directly). Also if you have
any other suggestions for the Clutch help section:
http://incubator.apache.org/clutch.html#steps

> >Wouldn't mind if you guys took a peek at the different items on the  
> >JIRA milestone above and gave your comments.

I will spend a little time soon.

>  I (and most of the  
> >other devs, most of whom are Europeans) are on holiday right now,  
> >but we should be getting back to speed in a week or two.
> >
> >Personally, I would like to get most of the issues looked at in  
> >advance so that we wouldn't have to bump our heads against the "oh,  
> >but your release is missing X, do it all again" too many times.

I am glancing at Clutch:
http://incubator.apache.org/clutch.html#jspwiki

The podling Status page hasn't been updated in ages.
http://incubator.apache.org/projects/jspwiki.html
Personally i would at least add some News items in there.
That would help to encourage more participants and helps
the IPMC at graduation review time.
There are some items that i expect are already done.
Investigate some other projects status files.

Clutch shows that there is one new committer since entry.
It gets that from the status News section. I tried to find
your Incubator Proposal wiki page and compare with the current
list of committers, but could not find it.

I went back through your board reports (nice) to try to find
mention of other committers.

So one new committer is good. That was 12 months ago.
Gradually adding more is ideal, but of course your PMC
knows best when someone else is ready. I do see other
contributors that seem to co-operate well in discussions
and provide decent patches. Getting more committers
should encourage others.

Getting ready for release is obviously your next thing ...

I suggest practicing ahead of time, as it will be less
frustrating when you go for the real release. Note down
your steps. Look around other projects and TLPs - many
have notes about their release process so that other devs
can assist and can do it themselves next time.
Most say that whoever is designated the Release Manager
needs to be prepared to put in a large amount of time.

Anyway some quick notes ...

License headers:
I glanced at some files. Looks okay. If not already done,
then i suggest running RAT or using other tools from the
"committers" repository.

License files:
I see that your "LICENSE" file includes references to
the supporting products licenses. Personally i think that
that is a reasonable solution to a hard maintenance problem.
Others say that we are required to display actual text of
all licenses there.

NOTICE file:
Hmmm, i think that this file is intended for actual
notices that are requested in the various supporting products
licenses.

One thing that you can get ready prior to release
is the distribution area at w.a.o/dist/incubator/jspwiki/

Look around other TLPs. Many have HEADER.html etc. files.
(Yes i know that not many other incubating projects do it.)
For people who stumble directly to mirrors or worse,
directly to w.a.o/dist/ space, rather than going via your
project's download page, these notices encourage them to
download from the mirrors instead, and provide instructions
for download verification. For example see Forrest.
We store those ancillary files in our SVN.

I am not sure what the requirements are to notify that
the release is by a project in incubation. There are some
docs at incubator.apache.org site. See the mirror headers
at w.a.o/dist/incubator/ top-level. There is some disclaimer
text there that you might like to use too.

The KEYS file is something else that you can get ready ahead
of release time. Even if it only contains the signature of
the Release Manager. Better with more, of course.

Anyway, i hope that helps a little to ease your next phase.

-David

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[appeal] Help JSPWiki Graduate!

Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.

Dear Incubator,

Taking up Bill Rowe's challenge, it would be great if JSPWiki got some  
feedback on graduation from the old hands here.

 From my (mentor) perspective, the project is almost there, still  
needing to release code under the Apache release process. Summertime  
is delaying things but the JSPWiki 3.0 release should give the project  
what it needs to satisfy the release requirement.

As noted in the last three incubator podling reports [1], community is  
in good shape, licensing is good, still need a release which was held  
up due to a Tomcat bug.

The project is tracking graduation requirements [2] and most of these  
are formalities.

Craig

forwarded message from Janne:

> *grin*
>
> I completely missed this email the first time around. I think  
> JSPWiki would certainly benefit from the attention - we're fairly  
> close to having all the bits and pieces in place (minus a release or  
> two).  It's just that we're slightly unsure as to what to do... When  
> I collected the list of Things To Do Before Graduation (https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&mode=hide&sorter/order=DESC&sorter/field=priority&resolution=-1&pid=12310732&fixfor=12313986 
> ), I think I found at least two, if not three, separate lists.
>
> Wouldn't mind if you guys took a peek at the different items on the  
> JIRA milestone above and gave your comments.  I (and most of the  
> other devs, most of whom are Europeans) are on holiday right now,  
> but we should be getting back to speed in a week or two.
>
> Personally, I would like to get most of the issues looked at in  
> advance so that we wouldn't have to bump our heads against the "oh,  
> but your release is missing X, do it all again" too many times.
>
> /Janne
>

[1] http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/jspwiki/board/
[2] http://is.gd/1qkV8

Craig L Russell
Incubator PMC, DB PMC, OpenJPA PMC
clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo