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Posted to dev@camel.apache.org by "Walzer, Thomas" <th...@integratix.net> on 2016/03/17 13:50:18 UTC

Karma request

May I kindly ask for Karma on the wiki?
I am sorry, I am not really sure how the process is supposed to work. My ICLA is on file. However I have no username (twalzer would be my preferred username, I stated that on the ICLA).
I am on http://people.apache.org/unlistedclas.html.
Did I miss something?

I would like to start out with correcting typos.

Cheers, Thomas.



Re: Karma request

Posted by Deven Phillips <de...@gmail.com>.
NVM, I found the corporate contributors license agreement and forwarded it
to our legal department.

Deven

On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:21 PM, Deven Phillips <de...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On a related note, I am processing the requests here at work to allow us
> to contribute our fixes on work time. Does Apache require a corporate
> contributor license agreement?
>
> Deven
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Deven Phillips <de...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Claus,
>>
>>    Yep... I sent it a long time ago, but I did not see my name on the
>> Apache site, so I sent a new one to the Secretary this morning.
>>
>> Deven
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Deven
>>>
>>> Do you have signed ICLA?
>>> http://camel.apache.org/how-do-i-edit-the-website.html
>>>
>>> And btw its the Camel community and team that maintain the Camel
>>> project. Not individuals. So if people have issues or need in contact,
>>> then they should get in touch on these mailing lists or chat etc.
>>>
>>> Not reach out to people in the private.
>>> http://camel.apache.org/support.html
>>> http://camel.apache.org/contributing.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Deven Phillips
>>> <de...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Please add infosec812 as well please! I contributed the pgevent
>>> > component... It's incomplete, but somewhat usable, so I want people to
>>> know
>>> > how to contact me if they need assistance!
>>> >
>>> > Thanks in advance!!
>>> >
>>> > Deven Phillips
>>> > Sungard Availability Services
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 9:58 AM, Walzer, Thomas <
>>> > thomas.walzer@integratix.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Thank you, Claus.
>>> >>
>>> >> > Am 17.03.2016 um 14:50 schrieb Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Okay your user have karma now.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Thanks for helping
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Walzer, Thomas
>>> >> > <th...@integratix.net> wrote:
>>> >> >> Ok, now there should be a user twalzer.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Thomas.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> Am 17.03.2016 um 13:58 schrieb Claus Ibsen <claus.ibsen@gmail.com
>>> >:
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Hi
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> You need to create the account on wiki yourself, then you can
>>> pick a
>>> >> >>> free username.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> By clicking that "edit page" link in the bottom of the page takes
>>> you
>>> >> >>> to wiki, and somewhere there is a create new user button.
>>> >> >>> http://camel.apache.org/
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Walzer, Thomas
>>> >> >>> <th...@integratix.net> wrote:
>>> >> >>>> May I kindly ask for Karma on the wiki?
>>> >> >>>> I am sorry, I am not really sure how the process is supposed to
>>> work.
>>> >> My ICLA is on file. However I have no username (twalzer would be my
>>> >> preferred username, I stated that on the ICLA).
>>> >> >>>> I am on http://people.apache.org/unlistedclas.html.
>>> >> >>>> Did I miss something?
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> I would like to start out with correcting typos.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> Cheers, Thomas.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> --
>>> >> >>> Claus Ibsen
>>> >> >>> -----------------
>>> >> >>> http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
>>> >> >>> Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > --
>>> >> > Claus Ibsen
>>> >> > -----------------
>>> >> > http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
>>> >> > Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Claus Ibsen
>>> -----------------
>>> http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
>>> Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: Karma request

Posted by Deven Phillips <de...@gmail.com>.
On a related note, I am processing the requests here at work to allow us to
contribute our fixes on work time. Does Apache require a corporate
contributor license agreement?

Deven

On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Deven Phillips <de...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Claus,
>
>    Yep... I sent it a long time ago, but I did not see my name on the
> Apache site, so I sent a new one to the Secretary this morning.
>
> Deven
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Deven
>>
>> Do you have signed ICLA?
>> http://camel.apache.org/how-do-i-edit-the-website.html
>>
>> And btw its the Camel community and team that maintain the Camel
>> project. Not individuals. So if people have issues or need in contact,
>> then they should get in touch on these mailing lists or chat etc.
>>
>> Not reach out to people in the private.
>> http://camel.apache.org/support.html
>> http://camel.apache.org/contributing.html
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Deven Phillips
>> <de...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Please add infosec812 as well please! I contributed the pgevent
>> > component... It's incomplete, but somewhat usable, so I want people to
>> know
>> > how to contact me if they need assistance!
>> >
>> > Thanks in advance!!
>> >
>> > Deven Phillips
>> > Sungard Availability Services
>> >
>> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 9:58 AM, Walzer, Thomas <
>> > thomas.walzer@integratix.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Thank you, Claus.
>> >>
>> >> > Am 17.03.2016 um 14:50 schrieb Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>:
>> >> >
>> >> > Okay your user have karma now.
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks for helping
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Walzer, Thomas
>> >> > <th...@integratix.net> wrote:
>> >> >> Ok, now there should be a user twalzer.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thomas.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Am 17.03.2016 um 13:58 schrieb Claus Ibsen <claus.ibsen@gmail.com
>> >:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Hi
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> You need to create the account on wiki yourself, then you can pick
>> a
>> >> >>> free username.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> By clicking that "edit page" link in the bottom of the page takes
>> you
>> >> >>> to wiki, and somewhere there is a create new user button.
>> >> >>> http://camel.apache.org/
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Walzer, Thomas
>> >> >>> <th...@integratix.net> wrote:
>> >> >>>> May I kindly ask for Karma on the wiki?
>> >> >>>> I am sorry, I am not really sure how the process is supposed to
>> work.
>> >> My ICLA is on file. However I have no username (twalzer would be my
>> >> preferred username, I stated that on the ICLA).
>> >> >>>> I am on http://people.apache.org/unlistedclas.html.
>> >> >>>> Did I miss something?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> I would like to start out with correcting typos.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Cheers, Thomas.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>> Claus Ibsen
>> >> >>> -----------------
>> >> >>> http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
>> >> >>> Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Claus Ibsen
>> >> > -----------------
>> >> > http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
>> >> > Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Claus Ibsen
>> -----------------
>> http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
>> Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
>>
>
>

Re: Karma request

Posted by Deven Phillips <de...@gmail.com>.
Claus,

   Yep... I sent it a long time ago, but I did not see my name on the
Apache site, so I sent a new one to the Secretary this morning.

Deven

On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Deven
>
> Do you have signed ICLA?
> http://camel.apache.org/how-do-i-edit-the-website.html
>
> And btw its the Camel community and team that maintain the Camel
> project. Not individuals. So if people have issues or need in contact,
> then they should get in touch on these mailing lists or chat etc.
>
> Not reach out to people in the private.
> http://camel.apache.org/support.html
> http://camel.apache.org/contributing.html
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Deven Phillips
> <de...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Please add infosec812 as well please! I contributed the pgevent
> > component... It's incomplete, but somewhat usable, so I want people to
> know
> > how to contact me if they need assistance!
> >
> > Thanks in advance!!
> >
> > Deven Phillips
> > Sungard Availability Services
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 9:58 AM, Walzer, Thomas <
> > thomas.walzer@integratix.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Thank you, Claus.
> >>
> >> > Am 17.03.2016 um 14:50 schrieb Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>:
> >> >
> >> > Okay your user have karma now.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for helping
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Walzer, Thomas
> >> > <th...@integratix.net> wrote:
> >> >> Ok, now there should be a user twalzer.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thomas.
> >> >>
> >> >>> Am 17.03.2016 um 13:58 schrieb Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Hi
> >> >>>
> >> >>> You need to create the account on wiki yourself, then you can pick a
> >> >>> free username.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> By clicking that "edit page" link in the bottom of the page takes
> you
> >> >>> to wiki, and somewhere there is a create new user button.
> >> >>> http://camel.apache.org/
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Walzer, Thomas
> >> >>> <th...@integratix.net> wrote:
> >> >>>> May I kindly ask for Karma on the wiki?
> >> >>>> I am sorry, I am not really sure how the process is supposed to
> work.
> >> My ICLA is on file. However I have no username (twalzer would be my
> >> preferred username, I stated that on the ICLA).
> >> >>>> I am on http://people.apache.org/unlistedclas.html.
> >> >>>> Did I miss something?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I would like to start out with correcting typos.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Cheers, Thomas.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> Claus Ibsen
> >> >>> -----------------
> >> >>> http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
> >> >>> Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Claus Ibsen
> >> > -----------------
> >> > http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
> >> > Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
> >>
>
>
>
> --
> Claus Ibsen
> -----------------
> http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
> Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
>

Re: Karma request

Posted by Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>.
Hi Deven

Do you have signed ICLA?
http://camel.apache.org/how-do-i-edit-the-website.html

And btw its the Camel community and team that maintain the Camel
project. Not individuals. So if people have issues or need in contact,
then they should get in touch on these mailing lists or chat etc.

Not reach out to people in the private.
http://camel.apache.org/support.html
http://camel.apache.org/contributing.html



On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Deven Phillips
<de...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Please add infosec812 as well please! I contributed the pgevent
> component... It's incomplete, but somewhat usable, so I want people to know
> how to contact me if they need assistance!
>
> Thanks in advance!!
>
> Deven Phillips
> Sungard Availability Services
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 9:58 AM, Walzer, Thomas <
> thomas.walzer@integratix.net> wrote:
>
>> Thank you, Claus.
>>
>> > Am 17.03.2016 um 14:50 schrieb Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>:
>> >
>> > Okay your user have karma now.
>> >
>> > Thanks for helping
>> >
>> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Walzer, Thomas
>> > <th...@integratix.net> wrote:
>> >> Ok, now there should be a user twalzer.
>> >>
>> >> Thomas.
>> >>
>> >>> Am 17.03.2016 um 13:58 schrieb Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi
>> >>>
>> >>> You need to create the account on wiki yourself, then you can pick a
>> >>> free username.
>> >>>
>> >>> By clicking that "edit page" link in the bottom of the page takes you
>> >>> to wiki, and somewhere there is a create new user button.
>> >>> http://camel.apache.org/
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Walzer, Thomas
>> >>> <th...@integratix.net> wrote:
>> >>>> May I kindly ask for Karma on the wiki?
>> >>>> I am sorry, I am not really sure how the process is supposed to work.
>> My ICLA is on file. However I have no username (twalzer would be my
>> preferred username, I stated that on the ICLA).
>> >>>> I am on http://people.apache.org/unlistedclas.html.
>> >>>> Did I miss something?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I would like to start out with correcting typos.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers, Thomas.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Claus Ibsen
>> >>> -----------------
>> >>> http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
>> >>> Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Claus Ibsen
>> > -----------------
>> > http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
>> > Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
>>



-- 
Claus Ibsen
-----------------
http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2

Re: Karma request

Posted by Deven Phillips <de...@gmail.com>.
Please add infosec812 as well please! I contributed the pgevent
component... It's incomplete, but somewhat usable, so I want people to know
how to contact me if they need assistance!

Thanks in advance!!

Deven Phillips
Sungard Availability Services

On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 9:58 AM, Walzer, Thomas <
thomas.walzer@integratix.net> wrote:

> Thank you, Claus.
>
> > Am 17.03.2016 um 14:50 schrieb Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>:
> >
> > Okay your user have karma now.
> >
> > Thanks for helping
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Walzer, Thomas
> > <th...@integratix.net> wrote:
> >> Ok, now there should be a user twalzer.
> >>
> >> Thomas.
> >>
> >>> Am 17.03.2016 um 13:58 schrieb Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>:
> >>>
> >>> Hi
> >>>
> >>> You need to create the account on wiki yourself, then you can pick a
> >>> free username.
> >>>
> >>> By clicking that "edit page" link in the bottom of the page takes you
> >>> to wiki, and somewhere there is a create new user button.
> >>> http://camel.apache.org/
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Walzer, Thomas
> >>> <th...@integratix.net> wrote:
> >>>> May I kindly ask for Karma on the wiki?
> >>>> I am sorry, I am not really sure how the process is supposed to work.
> My ICLA is on file. However I have no username (twalzer would be my
> preferred username, I stated that on the ICLA).
> >>>> I am on http://people.apache.org/unlistedclas.html.
> >>>> Did I miss something?
> >>>>
> >>>> I would like to start out with correcting typos.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers, Thomas.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Claus Ibsen
> >>> -----------------
> >>> http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
> >>> Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Claus Ibsen
> > -----------------
> > http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
> > Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
>

Re: Karma request

Posted by "Walzer, Thomas" <th...@integratix.net>.
Thank you, Claus.

> Am 17.03.2016 um 14:50 schrieb Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>:
> 
> Okay your user have karma now.
> 
> Thanks for helping
> 
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Walzer, Thomas
> <th...@integratix.net> wrote:
>> Ok, now there should be a user twalzer.
>> 
>> Thomas.
>> 
>>> Am 17.03.2016 um 13:58 schrieb Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> You need to create the account on wiki yourself, then you can pick a
>>> free username.
>>> 
>>> By clicking that "edit page" link in the bottom of the page takes you
>>> to wiki, and somewhere there is a create new user button.
>>> http://camel.apache.org/
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Walzer, Thomas
>>> <th...@integratix.net> wrote:
>>>> May I kindly ask for Karma on the wiki?
>>>> I am sorry, I am not really sure how the process is supposed to work. My ICLA is on file. However I have no username (twalzer would be my preferred username, I stated that on the ICLA).
>>>> I am on http://people.apache.org/unlistedclas.html.
>>>> Did I miss something?
>>>> 
>>>> I would like to start out with correcting typos.
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers, Thomas.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Claus Ibsen
>>> -----------------
>>> http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
>>> Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Claus Ibsen
> -----------------
> http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
> Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2

Re: Karma request

Posted by Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>.
Okay your user have karma now.

Thanks for helping

On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Walzer, Thomas
<th...@integratix.net> wrote:
> Ok, now there should be a user twalzer.
>
> Thomas.
>
>> Am 17.03.2016 um 13:58 schrieb Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> You need to create the account on wiki yourself, then you can pick a
>> free username.
>>
>> By clicking that "edit page" link in the bottom of the page takes you
>> to wiki, and somewhere there is a create new user button.
>> http://camel.apache.org/
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Walzer, Thomas
>> <th...@integratix.net> wrote:
>>> May I kindly ask for Karma on the wiki?
>>> I am sorry, I am not really sure how the process is supposed to work. My ICLA is on file. However I have no username (twalzer would be my preferred username, I stated that on the ICLA).
>>> I am on http://people.apache.org/unlistedclas.html.
>>> Did I miss something?
>>>
>>> I would like to start out with correcting typos.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Thomas.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Claus Ibsen
>> -----------------
>> http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
>> Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2



-- 
Claus Ibsen
-----------------
http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2

Re: Karma request

Posted by "Walzer, Thomas" <th...@integratix.net>.
Ok, now there should be a user twalzer.

Thomas.

> Am 17.03.2016 um 13:58 schrieb Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>:
> 
> Hi
> 
> You need to create the account on wiki yourself, then you can pick a
> free username.
> 
> By clicking that "edit page" link in the bottom of the page takes you
> to wiki, and somewhere there is a create new user button.
> http://camel.apache.org/
> 
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Walzer, Thomas
> <th...@integratix.net> wrote:
>> May I kindly ask for Karma on the wiki?
>> I am sorry, I am not really sure how the process is supposed to work. My ICLA is on file. However I have no username (twalzer would be my preferred username, I stated that on the ICLA).
>> I am on http://people.apache.org/unlistedclas.html.
>> Did I miss something?
>> 
>> I would like to start out with correcting typos.
>> 
>> Cheers, Thomas.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Claus Ibsen
> -----------------
> http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
> Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2

Re: Karma request

Posted by Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>.
Hi

You need to create the account on wiki yourself, then you can pick a
free username.

By clicking that "edit page" link in the bottom of the page takes you
to wiki, and somewhere there is a create new user button.
http://camel.apache.org/

On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Walzer, Thomas
<th...@integratix.net> wrote:
> May I kindly ask for Karma on the wiki?
> I am sorry, I am not really sure how the process is supposed to work. My ICLA is on file. However I have no username (twalzer would be my preferred username, I stated that on the ICLA).
> I am on http://people.apache.org/unlistedclas.html.
> Did I miss something?
>
> I would like to start out with correcting typos.
>
> Cheers, Thomas.
>
>



-- 
Claus Ibsen
-----------------
http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2

Re: Karma request

Posted by Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>.
Hi Thomas

Just a heads up that if you find spelling mistakes and other
corrections to the Camel components, then correcting in wiki becomes
obsolete.

We keep the documentation in the source code in the javadoc for the
setter methods on the component and endpoint classes.

We use this to generate and keep documentation up to date. Though this
is not yet complete and work in progress. But eventually the Camel
documentation on the website will be generated from this that ensures
the doc is always up to date with the actual source code.

So you may want to submit PRs to fix those docs in the source code as well.

You can see the generated docs in some of the components such as
https://github.com/apache/camel/blob/master/components/camel-ahc/src/main/docs/ahc.adoc

eg the components that have a ascii doc file.

So if you look in that adoc file you can see

// endpoint options: START
// endpoint options: END

then when building the source code, then the options within that
comment section is generated from the source code. So just change the
docs in the source and the adoc is updated.




On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Walzer, Thomas
<th...@integratix.net> wrote:
> May I kindly ask for Karma on the wiki?
> I am sorry, I am not really sure how the process is supposed to work. My ICLA is on file. However I have no username (twalzer would be my preferred username, I stated that on the ICLA).
> I am on http://people.apache.org/unlistedclas.html.
> Did I miss something?
>
> I would like to start out with correcting typos.
>
> Cheers, Thomas.
>
>



-- 
Claus Ibsen
-----------------
http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2