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Posted to general@xml.apache.org by Arnaud Le Hors <le...@us.ibm.com> on 2000/07/11 22:54:13 UTC
What name?
[I'm cross posting because having two threads on the two lists is simply
not productive.]
Brett McLaughlin wrote on xerces-j-dev:
>
> Somewhere in here people went from a new project to Xerces 2.
Stefano started it. See
http://xml-archive.webweaving.org/xml-archive-general/2127.html:
> James is just trying to do the same: start a new codebase to create the
> itches to scratch.
>
>
> Is it wrong to give it another codename? probably.
> Is it wrong to place it in another CVS module? probably.
> Is it wrong to go off without asking first? probably.
>
>
> So, let me start off another option:
>
>
> 1) we forget about spinnaker
> 2) we create a new CVS branch under xml-xerces where Xerces2 should
> reside
> 3) in case, we create a xerces2-dev mail list
To which I said: Sounds great!
Now you wrote:
> I don't
> know that everyone is happy with Spinnaker starting out as Xerces 2 - I
> know I am not. I think the right thing is let this thing evolve on its
> own, without any presumptions about its final resting place. Leave room
> for complete reinvention, not just upgrades.
The point is that we are interested in working for the next version of
Xerces. Not just making an experiment. So it's a natural way to call it
Xerces 2. If it's the number you don't like. Fine. Let's call it Xerces
NG (Next Generation). But I really wonder why some of you aren't more
confident in the success of this. Everybody says Xerces is a great
success. Even though we all know and recognize it has defiencies. How
couldn't we do better?? We plan to commit just as much time to this new
version of Xerces than we have commited to Xerces 1. So, having more
experience and help from others, I don't see how we'd fail.
And even if it was a failure after all. Then what? We'd start a new
version. What's the problem??? On the other hand, as I said in another
message moving things in CVS is a major pain. So I'd much rather choose
a place that's independent of its status.
--
Arnaud Le Hors - IBM Cupertino, XML Technology Group
Re: What name?
Posted by Joe Polastre <jp...@apache.org>.
From: "James Duncan Davidson" <ja...@eng.sun.com>
> Actually, I like Sam's proposed XRI name. It's what it is "Xerces
> Refactoring Initiative".
+1
=) I have no problem with sam's proposed name.
-Joe
Re: What name?
Posted by James Duncan Davidson <ja...@eng.sun.com>.
on 7/11/00 3:53 PM, Joe Polastre at jpolast@apache.org wrote:
> ensuring dominance vs. committing resources is a different story though.
> sun (and other companies) have agreed to commit to work on xerces, yet we
> haven't seen anything from them until this spinnaker debacle. public
> perception is a problem--many sun speakers at the javaone conference
> specifically said that xerces was "sun's code" and "primary development is
> being done by sun." [this was in the sessions, not the apache bof]
And you didn't hear that from me.... And I seriously chastised any occurance
that I know of it -- and all I can do is apologize for that. I get *really*
tired of apologizing for some of the stupid shit that Sun people have done
though. :(
And the Sun folks have been looking at Xerces code for a *very* long time
trying to figure out how best to use/contribute to it. What you don't know
is that I spent the last 6 months or so trying to get the people here to use
Xerces, and dump all other development. But they convinced me that there
were issues that needed to be addressed. So...
But you're opening up Sun vs. IBM wounds again. And I don't really mean to
make them worse...
> just don't like the 'spinnaker' name... that's it =) like i said above, it
> has a negative connotation to me... like xml4j was IBM's internal name,
> sorta seems like spinnaker is the same for sun.
Funny considering that Spinnaker has *no* code and wasn't a Sun name.... It
was my name. But I understand that people see that I'm a Sun drone... So..
<sigh>
But really, I don't have a problem with you not liking the Spinnaker name.
Actually, I like Sam's proposed XRI name. It's what it is "Xerces
Refactoring Initiative".
.duncan
Re: What name?
Posted by Joe Polastre <jp...@apache.org>.
From: "Brett McLaughlin" <br...@lutris.com>
> Oh sure - any codename if fine, is what I am saying ;-)
right. hopefully we can reach a decision on what codename to adopt. I
agree that xml4j/xml4c were IBM names and were appropriately changed when
introduced to apache. I can understand (not agree, but understand) the
xerces connotation as being from IBM. but along the same lines, spinnaker
sounds like something that those who happen to be employed at sun thought
up. if our goal is open development and design of a ng parser, then we
should also be open about the name... just my 2 cents.
> Actually, not at all - sorry about that!
np... sorry, I jumped on that one =)
> That's great. But I will still maintain that the /appearance/ was
> otherwise. In other Apache projects, multiple patches would have to
> occur, publicly, for that committer status to ever be obtained. I didn't
> see those patches (which doesn't mean they didn't exist!). Another thing
> that could have happened is that you may have made changes, that got
> introduced by other IBMers, without ever seeing the patches on the
> public lists. So again, while you may have earned the privs, it didn't
> look that way - just perception I'm talking here, certainly nothing
> against you or other IBM folks personally ;-)
you're right. some (maybe even most) of the patches did not publicly
include the code. some of them, the xerces-c list was informed of the
changes that were intended, i made the changes, then forwarded them on to an
IBM committer w/o posting the actual changes to be made. if i could do it
again, i promise you they would have been posted to the list =)
same is true of the COM wrapper. Curt [non ibm'er] has been working on that
and did some absolutely great changes, but alot of it was submitted through
IBM'ers. Curt submitted updates to the list but not the specific code
changes.
i'm glad that you have brought this up tho. i like constructive criticism
instead of brash complaints =)
> That's terrific. I look forward to seeing your patches.
i look forward to working on the design for ng xerces-j and xerces-c.
> Can and do aren't the same ;-) I haven't seen that happen. I have seen
> what looks like IBM helping ensure dominance. The court of public
> opinion can be a sticky thing!
ensuring dominance vs. committing resources is a different story though.
sun (and other companies) have agreed to commit to work on xerces, yet we
haven't seen anything from them until this spinnaker debacle. public
perception is a problem--many sun speakers at the javaone conference
specifically said that xerces was "sun's code" and "primary development is
being done by sun." [this was in the sessions, not the apache bof] anyway,
last i checked, it was an *apache* project. so thus, it comes as a surprise
that they're not interested in xerces1 sourcebase anymore.
unfortunately both ibm and sun are guilty for branding xerces as their own.
i'm hoping that with a new design, we might be able to get a larger
developer base involved with the project to truely make it a community
effort.
[end of sun vs. ibm argument, sorry for the diversion]
> Not at all! I certainly want to emphasize that I don't fault anyone's
> competence, or even what happened - I fault the appearance of the way
> things happened, because they contributed to the overall feeling of IBM
> running Xerces. This perception, I think you can at least acknowledge,
> if not agree with. I'm simply saying we can do things to lessen that
> perspective - and the cost is things like not using Xerces 2 as a name.
> Is that really such a big deal? If it isn't let's just get on with it!
just don't like the 'spinnaker' name... that's it =) like i said above, it
has a negative connotation to me... like xml4j was IBM's internal name,
sorta seems like spinnaker is the same for sun. or getting away from the
'sun' thing, it sounds like it was conceived by one or two people instead of
the group at large. lets just go with something neutral that the community
decides upon. if everyone says 'spinnaker is a great codename' and i'm the
only outlier, then i say go with the name.
-Joe
Re: What name?
Posted by Brett McLaughlin <br...@lutris.com>.
Joe Polastre wrote:
>
> From: "Brett McLaughlin" <br...@lutris.com>
> > I just think that the name "Xerces" carries with it some negative
> > connotations for /some/ people. I'm not making this up, I swear ;-) I
> > get mails about this a lot on JDOM and at Enhydra. Let's just avoid that
> > - then when we make it Xerces 2 (if that is what happens), we can clear
> > those all away, because people are confident in the newer "code name."
>
> And some people are _uncomfortable_ with the "Spinnaker" name. [I'm
> personally a fan of the old software corporation, 'spinnaker', that made
> quality games for systems like the commodore 64] many other companies use
> the word "spinnaker" [as noted by the 46,598 results at google, for
> example]. why not choose something completely new and unoffensive =)
> something unique.
Oh sure - any codename if fine, is what I am saying ;-)
>
> In honor of the bazaar structure that so many people are touting, why are we
> allowing one person to codename this branch? shouldn't it be a group effort
> here? (yes, I read that James has offered to give up naming the new branch)
>
> > OK, Joe Blow just joined us at IBM, can we get some +1s.
>
> You are probably referring to me (my name is Joe, right?). I had been
Actually, not at all - sorry about that!
> involved with the Xerces-C project for quite a while (assisted in porting it
> to wince, other stuff last summer) and just happened to join IBM in late
> may. My contributions were noted in the CVS repository and I received 5
> +1s, two or three of which were outside of IBM. And trust me, I had to
> fight with both Dirk and Brian to get my privs.
That's great. But I will still maintain that the /appearance/ was
otherwise. In other Apache projects, multiple patches would have to
occur, publicly, for that committer status to ever be obtained. I didn't
see those patches (which doesn't mean they didn't exist!). Another thing
that could have happened is that you may have made changes, that got
introduced by other IBMers, without ever seeing the patches on the
public lists. So again, while you may have earned the privs, it didn't
look that way - just perception I'm talking here, certainly nothing
against you or other IBM folks personally ;-)
>
> In the last 3 months, only 2 people that I know of from IBM Cupertino have
> received commit privs. Me on Xerces-C and Jordan on FOP. And both of us
> demonstrated our commitment to the projects as "individuals" [seems to be
> the buzz word these days]. Furthermore, both of us are going back to the
> world of academia in september, and both of us intend to continue
> contributing to the apache project as students (non-IBM employees). Heck,
That's terrific. I look forward to seeing your patches.
> who knows, I might actually decide to write some Java code too instead of
> just C++! =)
>
> I agree that the situation you describe *has* occurred, but you make it seem
> commonplace... which I'm arguing that it is not. Likewise, sun (or any
> other corporate sponsor of the project) which has 3 committers can
> essentially vote anyone else in. And other committers, if warranted, could
Can and do aren't the same ;-) I haven't seen that happen. I have seen
what looks like IBM helping ensure dominance. The court of public
opinion can be a sticky thing!
> have -1'd any IBM'ers that they didn't feel comfortable with in the project
> due to lack of demonstrating commitment.
>
> sorry, that's my rant for today... feel free to flame... grrr...
Not at all! I certainly want to emphasize that I don't fault anyone's
competence, or even what happened - I fault the appearance of the way
things happened, because they contributed to the overall feeling of IBM
running Xerces. This perception, I think you can at least acknowledge,
if not agree with. I'm simply saying we can do things to lessen that
perspective - and the cost is things like not using Xerces 2 as a name.
Is that really such a big deal? If it isn't let's just get on with it!
-Brett
>
> -Joe
> (on behalf of myself)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
--
Brett McLaughlin, Enhydra Strategist
Lutris Technologies, Inc.
1200 Pacific Avenue, Suite 300
Santa Cruz, CA 95060 USA
http://www.lutris.com
http://www.enhydra.org
Re: What name?
Posted by Joe Polastre <jp...@apache.org>.
From: "Brett McLaughlin" <br...@lutris.com>
> I just think that the name "Xerces" carries with it some negative
> connotations for /some/ people. I'm not making this up, I swear ;-) I
> get mails about this a lot on JDOM and at Enhydra. Let's just avoid that
> - then when we make it Xerces 2 (if that is what happens), we can clear
> those all away, because people are confident in the newer "code name."
And some people are _uncomfortable_ with the "Spinnaker" name. [I'm
personally a fan of the old software corporation, 'spinnaker', that made
quality games for systems like the commodore 64] many other companies use
the word "spinnaker" [as noted by the 46,598 results at google, for
example]. why not choose something completely new and unoffensive =)
something unique.
In honor of the bazaar structure that so many people are touting, why are we
allowing one person to codename this branch? shouldn't it be a group effort
here? (yes, I read that James has offered to give up naming the new branch)
> OK, Joe Blow just joined us at IBM, can we get some +1s.
You are probably referring to me (my name is Joe, right?). I had been
involved with the Xerces-C project for quite a while (assisted in porting it
to wince, other stuff last summer) and just happened to join IBM in late
may. My contributions were noted in the CVS repository and I received 5
+1s, two or three of which were outside of IBM. And trust me, I had to
fight with both Dirk and Brian to get my privs.
In the last 3 months, only 2 people that I know of from IBM Cupertino have
received commit privs. Me on Xerces-C and Jordan on FOP. And both of us
demonstrated our commitment to the projects as "individuals" [seems to be
the buzz word these days]. Furthermore, both of us are going back to the
world of academia in september, and both of us intend to continue
contributing to the apache project as students (non-IBM employees). Heck,
who knows, I might actually decide to write some Java code too instead of
just C++! =)
I agree that the situation you describe *has* occurred, but you make it seem
commonplace... which I'm arguing that it is not. Likewise, sun (or any
other corporate sponsor of the project) which has 3 committers can
essentially vote anyone else in. And other committers, if warranted, could
have -1'd any IBM'ers that they didn't feel comfortable with in the project
due to lack of demonstrating commitment.
sorry, that's my rant for today... feel free to flame... grrr...
-Joe
(on behalf of myself)
Re: What name?
Posted by James Duncan Davidson <ja...@eng.sun.com>.
on 7/11/00 4:20 PM, Edwin Goei at Edwin.Goei@eng.sun.com wrote:
> Good point. I think one of Arnaud's objections is that it will be difficult
> to change the package names and directories.
Package names and dirs are easy to change. In fact, I'd like to see
everything in a different package name (like org.apache.xri.*) so that it
doesn't interfere with the current Xerces on a developers or a users
machine.. Especially since a few Ant users probably use Xerces under Ant.
.duncan
RE: What name?
Posted by David Waite <ma...@ufl.edu>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edwin Goei [mailto:Edwin.Goei@eng.sun.com]
> "Brett McLaughlin" <br...@lutris.com> writes:
<snip>
> > We also
> > need to lower the cost of entry - it is really high. The primary mails I
> > see for committers are:
> >
> > OK, Joe Blow just joined us at IBM, can we get some +1s.
> >
> > Then, 3 other IBM guys +1 him, and he's in. This isn't helpful for
> > people to see - it also proven by the low number of patches (almost
> > never) that go to the mailing lists. People ask questions, IBM fixes it.
> > This is fine, it's life - but let's at least try to improve that
> > political deficiency by giving people a chance, and by IBM saying
> > publicly, "Yes, we are willing to work at this, so if a new name helps,
> > we're for it." That's what I'm getting at - not that Xerces can't
> > improve.
>
> Yes, I also think it takes a lot of effort for a new developer to
> get up to
> speed in understanding the current Xerces code. This is why I feel a
> redesign is needed. I would like to participate, but I can't quite muster
> the energy to understand the code enough to do so. Probably other people
> feel the same way.
>
I woud agree - the current codebase is too complex. My current project
involves making an interface for the Jabber system (www.jabber.org), an
XML-based network protocol. I'm using SAX to send data back and forth, but I
had a caching issue with Xerces which I tried for nearly two weeks to debug.
I finally gave up (at least temporarily) and switched to AElfred.
I am totally for a simpler, smaller piece of code.
-David Waite
Re: What name?
Posted by Edwin Goei <Ed...@eng.sun.com>.
"Brett McLaughlin" <br...@lutris.com> writes:
> I just think that the name "Xerces" carries with it some negative
> connotations for /some/ people. I'm not making this up, I swear ;-) I
> get mails about this a lot on JDOM and at Enhydra. Let's just avoid that
> - then when we make it Xerces 2 (if that is what happens), we can clear
> those all away, because people are confident in the newer "code name."
Good point. I think one of Arnaud's objections is that it will be difficult
to change the package names and directories. I think I would still lean
towards using a new codename and then renaming it to Xerces 2 later,
however. If people are unhappy with the name "spinnaker", I'm prefectly
fine with naming it something else.
> We also
> need to lower the cost of entry - it is really high. The primary mails I
> see for committers are:
>
> OK, Joe Blow just joined us at IBM, can we get some +1s.
>
> Then, 3 other IBM guys +1 him, and he's in. This isn't helpful for
> people to see - it also proven by the low number of patches (almost
> never) that go to the mailing lists. People ask questions, IBM fixes it.
> This is fine, it's life - but let's at least try to improve that
> political deficiency by giving people a chance, and by IBM saying
> publicly, "Yes, we are willing to work at this, so if a new name helps,
> we're for it." That's what I'm getting at - not that Xerces can't
> improve.
Yes, I also think it takes a lot of effort for a new developer to get up to
speed in understanding the current Xerces code. This is why I feel a
redesign is needed. I would like to participate, but I can't quite muster
the energy to understand the code enough to do so. Probably other people
feel the same way.
It's good to see that other people outside IBM and Sun are participating in
this discussion.
-Edwin
Re: What name?
Posted by Eric Ye <er...@locus.apache.org>.
>
> I just think that the name "Xerces" carries with it some negative
> connotations for /some/ people. I'm not making this up, I swear ;-) I
> get mails about this a lot on JDOM and at Enhydra. Let's just avoid that
> - then when we make it Xerces 2 (if that is what happens), we can clear
> those all away, because people are confident in the newer "code name."
>
if like you said, "Xerces" carries with it some negative connotation for
/some people, even we would have a new name "Xxxxx", we will still be
working in the xml-XERCES module in the CVS repository, which with your
logic will drive people away. It is a reasonable assumption people will
have that we will be working on a next generation XERCES parser, since this
project and this mailing list all have a "XERCES" in their names, don't
they? A solution for the problem you mentioned is we can make some really
noticeable announcement on the mailing list and say that this new branch is
aimed for rethinking all the requirements and possibly a new parser
architecture.
> We could - but right now, I think two tracks are needed. One to bring
> Xerces 1 to a full-blown, completely bug-proof (as much as is
> reasonable) parser. Without changing internals. But I think we need a
> new start to get the benefit of being able to change internals. We also
> need to lower the cost of entry - it is really high. The primary mails I
> see for committers are:
>
> OK, Joe Blow just joined us at IBM, can we get some +1s.
>
> Then, 3 other IBM guys +1 him, and he's in. This isn't helpful for
> people to see - it also proven by the low number of patches (almost
> never) that go to the mailing lists. People ask questions, IBM fixes it.
> This is fine, it's life - but let's at least try to improve that
> political deficiency by giving people a chance, and by IBM saying
> publicly, "Yes, we are willing to work at this, so if a new name helps,
> we're for it." That's what I'm getting at - not that Xerces can't
> improve.
>
IBM do have the most committers, that is a fact. but we never vote -1 when
somebody else submit a candidate. In an open source project, the more people
really involved in, the better for the project. I can't help getting a
little bit emotional here, we do most work, fix most bugs, answer most of
the questions, we get blamed for not being helpful for people to see, life
is really tough......SORRY, if this offend you, didn't mean to.
On the other hand, we do have patches coming from the mailing list and being
committed into the repository, and you can also find in a lot messages we
encourage contributors to fix bug or work on a new feature. and there are
contributors other than IBM currently working on new features and maintain
part of the source tree.
>
> I agree - but what I'm afraid of is that Xerces 2 will /not/ garner help
> from others, whereas a "perceived revolution" such as Spinnaker will.
> Even if IBM has to play the "foil" or "bad guy" initially, isn't it
> worth it if at the end Xerces 2, or whatever, is the best, most usable,
> parser around?
Let's start to put together some serious requiremnet first.
_____
Eric Ye * IBM, JTC - Silicon Valley * ericye@locus.apache.org
Re: What name?
Posted by James Duncan Davidson <ja...@eng.sun.com>.
on 7/11/00 3:36 PM, Brett McLaughlin at brett.mclaughlin@lutris.com wrote:
> Still, I certainly didn't mean to assault IBM, and hope that it is
> clearer that it is the /perception/ I am more concerned with than the
> reality.
I'm probably the wrong person to mention this.. :) but hell, here goes. Sun
had this same problem with Tomcat. For the first few months, it seemed like
everyone thought that Tomcat was a Sun only thing.
Sam Ruby was one of the people that help bust Sun out of most of these
problems (sometimes by busting people publically when the perception got out
of line :). Most of the problems *were* those of perception. Quite a few
stemmed from people distrusting corporate paid people about anything.
One of the important events was when Sam actually became a release manager
for Tomcat. At that point the reality of the project being a community
project got a whole lot more real. Since that point, Tomcat has become
something of a community fed success.
.duncan
Re: What name?
Posted by Brett McLaughlin <br...@lutris.com>.
Arnaud Le Hors wrote:
>
> Brett,
> I can't believe you're dragging this back into a Sun vs IBM thing. It is
I certainly did not mean to. If I did, I completely apologize - I, for
one, am not from Sun, and hate a lot of what Sun does (the SCSL for
example). James will be the first to tell you this ;-) I also think JSP
is a load of crap... but that's another mailing list ;-)
> true that most comitters have been IBMers so far. But this happened
> despite the fact we've been trying repeatedly to get the Sun folks to
> join us. Besides, Sun has made many public announcements that they
What I meant to focus on, and what we may have miscommunicated on, is
the /perception/ of what is happening. I will happily admit that I think
there are things going on that are not publicly recognized - I think IBM
folks that are committers, for example, earn their stripes before
getting commit privileges. But I also firmly maintain that the
perception is that this is not the case. People don't see that, because
it happens at Cupertino. Is this bad? Sort of - but I think it is more
of a learning experience, for /all/ of us. The _perception_, though, is
what we have to fight in an open source project.
> support Xerces. At the same time, we've all made it very clear in many
> occasions that this was not IBM's parser, nor Sun's, but Apache's. This
> was stated again at the XML Apache BOF we had at JavaOne.
I know - I remember ;-) But I also know that people don't neccessarily
believe that. Is that their fault? Yes. Is there some blame on the
Xerces project as a whole (Sun, IBM, the whole group!)? Yes! Certainly
we all should have seen this and nipped it in the bud earlier. Now we
have to pay some prices, I believe, if we/you truly want this to be a
community.
>
> So, PLEASE get over it!!...
I don't take it personally at all. In fact, I think I believe that
things are going a lot better than you think - but the people I get mail
from do not. And I'm not willing to argue it with them, because I can at
a minimum see where they are coming from. I'm not suggesting the process
of hard work change, I'm suggesting the way we show that hard work /is/
occuring become more open.
>
> Obviously I disagree with you on what you said about the name Xerces.
> Xerces is a recognized name and I believe there are more benefits in
> sticking to it than not. Otherwise, why would you want to call it Xerces
Which is OK ;-) We disagree on lots of stuff ;-)
> any time?? I don't buy any of your arguments about people being scared
I think having one Apache XML parser is probably the right thing. So I
would say it shoul eventually be Xerces to bring this new parser back
into line with the XML Apache line of names. If it was foo, and the new
codename sounded better with Xalan, Xang, etc., I wouldn't advocate
going back to "foo" obviously.
> simply by the name, and I don't see why we could explain to people how
> different the new one is after rather than before. It's only a matter of
I just don't think we should even spend the cycles to fight the battle
(it is one, version 2 means something completely differnt to people that
"new version") when we don't have to.
> communication. Feel free to spread the words.
Certainly, if it does become Xerces 2, I will. But I don't want to have
to spend that time if I don't need to!
Still, I certainly didn't mean to assault IBM, and hope that it is
clearer that it is the /perception/ I am more concerned with than the
reality. Heck, IBM pays me to write articles and moderate newsgroups! I
don't want to piss them off ;-)
Thanks,
Brett
> --
> Arnaud Le Hors - IBM Cupertino, XML Technology Group
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
--
Brett McLaughlin, Enhydra Strategist
Lutris Technologies, Inc.
1200 Pacific Avenue, Suite 300
Santa Cruz, CA 95060 USA
http://www.lutris.com
http://www.enhydra.org
Re: What name?
Posted by Brett McLaughlin <br...@lutris.com>.
Arnaud Le Hors wrote:
>
> Brett,
> I can't believe you're dragging this back into a Sun vs IBM thing. It is
I certainly did not mean to. If I did, I completely apologize - I, for
one, am not from Sun, and hate a lot of what Sun does (the SCSL for
example). James will be the first to tell you this ;-) I also think JSP
is a load of crap... but that's another mailing list ;-)
> true that most comitters have been IBMers so far. But this happened
> despite the fact we've been trying repeatedly to get the Sun folks to
> join us. Besides, Sun has made many public announcements that they
What I meant to focus on, and what we may have miscommunicated on, is
the /perception/ of what is happening. I will happily admit that I think
there are things going on that are not publicly recognized - I think IBM
folks that are committers, for example, earn their stripes before
getting commit privileges. But I also firmly maintain that the
perception is that this is not the case. People don't see that, because
it happens at Cupertino. Is this bad? Sort of - but I think it is more
of a learning experience, for /all/ of us. The _perception_, though, is
what we have to fight in an open source project.
> support Xerces. At the same time, we've all made it very clear in many
> occasions that this was not IBM's parser, nor Sun's, but Apache's. This
> was stated again at the XML Apache BOF we had at JavaOne.
I know - I remember ;-) But I also know that people don't neccessarily
believe that. Is that their fault? Yes. Is there some blame on the
Xerces project as a whole (Sun, IBM, the whole group!)? Yes! Certainly
we all should have seen this and nipped it in the bud earlier. Now we
have to pay some prices, I believe, if we/you truly want this to be a
community.
>
> So, PLEASE get over it!!...
I don't take it personally at all. In fact, I think I believe that
things are going a lot better than you think - but the people I get mail
from do not. And I'm not willing to argue it with them, because I can at
a minimum see where they are coming from. I'm not suggesting the process
of hard work change, I'm suggesting the way we show that hard work /is/
occuring become more open.
>
> Obviously I disagree with you on what you said about the name Xerces.
> Xerces is a recognized name and I believe there are more benefits in
> sticking to it than not. Otherwise, why would you want to call it Xerces
Which is OK ;-) We disagree on lots of stuff ;-)
> any time?? I don't buy any of your arguments about people being scared
I think having one Apache XML parser is probably the right thing. So I
would say it shoul eventually be Xerces to bring this new parser back
into line with the XML Apache line of names. If it was foo, and the new
codename sounded better with Xalan, Xang, etc., I wouldn't advocate
going back to "foo" obviously.
> simply by the name, and I don't see why we could explain to people how
> different the new one is after rather than before. It's only a matter of
I just don't think we should even spend the cycles to fight the battle
(it is one, version 2 means something completely differnt to people that
"new version") when we don't have to.
> communication. Feel free to spread the words.
Certainly, if it does become Xerces 2, I will. But I don't want to have
to spend that time if I don't need to!
Still, I certainly didn't mean to assault IBM, and hope that it is
clearer that it is the /perception/ I am more concerned with than the
reality. Heck, IBM pays me to write articles and moderate newsgroups! I
don't want to piss them off ;-)
Thanks,
Brett
> --
> Arnaud Le Hors - IBM Cupertino, XML Technology Group
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
--
Brett McLaughlin, Enhydra Strategist
Lutris Technologies, Inc.
1200 Pacific Avenue, Suite 300
Santa Cruz, CA 95060 USA
http://www.lutris.com
http://www.enhydra.org
Re: What name?
Posted by Edwin Goei <Ed...@eng.sun.com>.
"Arnaud Le Hors" <le...@us.ibm.com> writes:
> Brett,
> I can't believe you're dragging this back into a Sun vs IBM thing. It is
> true that most comitters have been IBMers so far. But this happened
> despite the fact we've been trying repeatedly to get the Sun folks to
> join us.
I'm assuming you're referring to me as one of the "Sun folks". As I've said
previously my major objection to working on the current Xerces code is that
it is in general difficult to understand. I would much rather work on a
different code base such as Aelfred2 or Crimson or better, this new parser
(spinnaker). I was not hired to specifically work on Xerces and so I have
chosen not to. Maybe it's different for people working at IBM Cupertino
that are specifically hired to work on Xerces because it is also an IBM
product. I'm guessing here, correct me if I'm wrong.
> Besides, Sun has made many public announcements that they
> support Xerces.
I don't have enough info on this. I know in the past different people in
Sun have made mistakes about such announcements. Sun is a large company and
sometimes the left hand doesn't always know what the right is doing.
> At the same time, we've all made it very clear in many
> occasions that this was not IBM's parser, nor Sun's, but Apache's. This
> was stated again at the XML Apache BOF we had at JavaOne.
Fine. I think we are starting to get more participation with this new
parser project. I certainly would like to participate.
-Edwin
Re: What name?
Posted by Edwin Goei <Ed...@eng.sun.com>.
> Personally, XRI works for me, even though it's not a "name" by the
> above rules.
Fine with me too.
Re: What name?
Posted by James Duncan Davidson <ja...@eng.sun.com>.
on 7/11/00 5:25 PM, Andy Heninger at andyh@jtcsv.com wrote:
>> This *wasn't* a Sun project code name. Quit keeping that perception alive.
>> Sheesh.
>>
> Sorry.
Though I do understand that Spinnaker *is* overloaded with connotations of
too many sorts by this point.. I just want to let it go and die a quiet
death.. :)
> This is the hard problem. When xerces, xalan, etc. were chosen the
> ground rules were that the names had to be be actual words or names, not
> acronyms, and not be already in use for computer related things.
> The names left were mostly weak at best.
Interesting set of ground rules. I can see where that would leave a subpar
set.
> Personally, XRI works for me, even though it's not a "name" by the
> above rules.
Yep, same by me.
Re: What name?
Posted by Andy Heninger <an...@jtcsv.com>.
James wrote,
> This *wasn't* a Sun project code name. Quit keeping that perception
alive.
> Sheesh.
>
Sorry.
> > Here's some hits from a quick web search on Spinnaker.
>
> Yep, point taken. Suggest a new name then.
This is the hard problem. When xerces, xalan, etc. were chosen the
ground rules were that the names had to be be actual words or names, not
acronyms, and not be already in use for computer related things.
The names left were mostly weak at best.
Personally, XRI works for me, even though it's not a "name" by the
above rules.
-- Andy
Re: What name?
Posted by Arnaud Le Hors <le...@us.ibm.com>.
James Duncan Davidson wrote:
>
> on 7/11/00 4:01 PM, Andy Heninger at andyh@jtcsv.com wrote:
>
> > For a purely internal Sun project code name, this wouldn't matter.
> > But for a public Apache project, I think that conflicts are a
> > problem.
>
> This *wasn't* a Sun project code name. Quit keeping that perception alive.
> Sheesh.
[ James, please don't take this wrong, I'm not saying this in any
inflamatory way. ]
I'm afraid it's too late for that, the way this has already made its way
to the press is very much into that vein. The article from Edd Dumbill
on xmlhack starts with:
James Davidson of _Sun_ announced "Spinnaker", a project to create an
entirely new Apache XML parser, destined to ship inside _Sun's_ JDK.
> > Here's some hits from a quick web search on Spinnaker.
>
> Yep, point taken. Suggest a new name then.
Xerces-NG.
--
Arnaud Le Hors - IBM Cupertino, XML Technology Group
Re: What name?
Posted by James Duncan Davidson <ja...@eng.sun.com>.
on 7/11/00 4:01 PM, Andy Heninger at andyh@jtcsv.com wrote:
> For a purely internal Sun project code name, this wouldn't matter.
> But for a public Apache project, I think that conflicts are a
> problem.
This *wasn't* a Sun project code name. Quit keeping that perception alive.
Sheesh.
> Here's some hits from a quick web search on Spinnaker.
Yep, point taken. Suggest a new name then.
.duncan
Re: What name?
Posted by Andy Heninger <an...@jtcsv.com>.
=From: "James Duncan Davidson" <ja...@eng.sun.com>
To: <ge...@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: What name?
> on 7/11/00 2:57 PM, Arnaud Le Hors at lehors@us.ibm.com wrote:
>
> > Obviously I disagree with you on what you said about the name Xerces.
> > Xerces is a recognized name and I believe there are more benefits in
> > sticking to it than not.
>
> For a shipping parser, yes there are benefits. For an experiment....
>
> .duncan
>
The Xerces name was the result of a lot of searching for something that
didn't conflict with already existing software products or companies.
This wasn't an easy task; nearly everything remotely cool is already
taken
For a purely internal Sun project code name, this wouldn't matter.
But for a public Apache project, I think that conflicts are a
problem.
Here's some hits from a quick web search on Spinnaker.
-- Andy
revised: 06/09/00
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Re: What name?
Posted by James Duncan Davidson <ja...@eng.sun.com>.
on 7/11/00 2:57 PM, Arnaud Le Hors at lehors@us.ibm.com wrote:
> Obviously I disagree with you on what you said about the name Xerces.
> Xerces is a recognized name and I believe there are more benefits in
> sticking to it than not.
For a shipping parser, yes there are benefits. For an experiment....
.duncan
Re: What name?
Posted by Arnaud Le Hors <le...@us.ibm.com>.
Brett,
I can't believe you're dragging this back into a Sun vs IBM thing. It is
true that most comitters have been IBMers so far. But this happened
despite the fact we've been trying repeatedly to get the Sun folks to
join us. Besides, Sun has made many public announcements that they
support Xerces. At the same time, we've all made it very clear in many
occasions that this was not IBM's parser, nor Sun's, but Apache's. This
was stated again at the XML Apache BOF we had at JavaOne.
So, PLEASE get over it!!...
Obviously I disagree with you on what you said about the name Xerces.
Xerces is a recognized name and I believe there are more benefits in
sticking to it than not. Otherwise, why would you want to call it Xerces
any time?? I don't buy any of your arguments about people being scared
simply by the name, and I don't see why we could explain to people how
different the new one is after rather than before. It's only a matter of
communication. Feel free to spread the words.
--
Arnaud Le Hors - IBM Cupertino, XML Technology Group
Re: What name?
Posted by Brett McLaughlin <br...@lutris.com>.
Arnaud Le Hors wrote:
>
> [I'm cross posting because having two threads on the two lists is simply
> not productive.]
>
> Brett McLaughlin wrote on xerces-j-dev:
> >
> > Somewhere in here people went from a new project to Xerces 2.
>
> Stefano started it. See
> http://xml-archive.webweaving.org/xml-archive-general/2127.html:
>
> > James is just trying to do the same: start a new codebase to create the
> > itches to scratch.
> >
> >
> > Is it wrong to give it another codename? probably.
This I disagree with - I like Stefano, he's great, but I think this is
not the best idea. I certainly am all for Spinnaker /becoming/ Xerces 2
at some point - I really think a next generation parser is great, and
would love to see Xerces embrace it. What I'm emphasizing is that many,
many people will see Xerces 2, and leave. They have tried Xerces, they
see it's complex, they know what it looks like, and, for better or
worse, it feels like an IBM project.
Even if we all agree "Xerces 2 can start from scratch" people will think
otherwise. It's not right, but it's human nature, and we should cater to
that because we /know/ it will happen. Also, I think its premature to
say we are ready for Xerces 2 - Spinnaker won't even be functionally the
same as Xerces for quite a while, I'm sure - I mean, we're talking ints
vs Strings here. That's very very early. If we call this Xerces 2,
another tendency will be for people to stop forward progress on Xerces -
that is also a bad thing right now - still lots to do in Xerces 1.
For all these reasons, plus the allowance of code from places like
Crimson without an act of congress, plus people's conceptions of Xerces,
I am not comfortable with the name Xerces 2. At the same time, please
understand, I am 100% behind Xerces 2 /being/ Spinnaker if it works out.
> > Is it wrong to place it in another CVS module? probably.
> > Is it wrong to go off without asking first? probably.
> >
> >
> > So, let me start off another option:
> >
> >
> > 1) we forget about spinnaker
> > 2) we create a new CVS branch under xml-xerces where Xerces2 should
> > reside
> > 3) in case, we create a xerces2-dev mail list
>
> To which I said: Sounds great!
>
> Now you wrote:
>
> > I don't
> > know that everyone is happy with Spinnaker starting out as Xerces 2 - I
> > know I am not. I think the right thing is let this thing evolve on its
> > own, without any presumptions about its final resting place. Leave room
> > for complete reinvention, not just upgrades.
>
> The point is that we are interested in working for the next version of
> Xerces. Not just making an experiment. So it's a natural way to call it
> Xerces 2. If it's the number you don't like. Fine. Let's call it Xerces
> NG (Next Generation). But I really wonder why some of you aren't more
I just think that the name "Xerces" carries with it some negative
connotations for /some/ people. I'm not making this up, I swear ;-) I
get mails about this a lot on JDOM and at Enhydra. Let's just avoid that
- then when we make it Xerces 2 (if that is what happens), we can clear
those all away, because people are confident in the newer "code name."
> confident in the success of this. Everybody says Xerces is a great
> success. Even though we all know and recognize it has defiencies. How
> couldn't we do better?? We plan to commit just as much time to this new
We could - but right now, I think two tracks are needed. One to bring
Xerces 1 to a full-blown, completely bug-proof (as much as is
reasonable) parser. Without changing internals. But I think we need a
new start to get the benefit of being able to change internals. We also
need to lower the cost of entry - it is really high. The primary mails I
see for committers are:
OK, Joe Blow just joined us at IBM, can we get some +1s.
Then, 3 other IBM guys +1 him, and he's in. This isn't helpful for
people to see - it also proven by the low number of patches (almost
never) that go to the mailing lists. People ask questions, IBM fixes it.
This is fine, it's life - but let's at least try to improve that
political deficiency by giving people a chance, and by IBM saying
publicly, "Yes, we are willing to work at this, so if a new name helps,
we're for it." That's what I'm getting at - not that Xerces can't
improve.
At the same time, I would maintain that a good, SAX, DOM, JDOM capable
parser can be done in under 500K. I don't believe Xerces can be pared
down 1/2 MB and still be anything but a completely rewritten thing - so
let's rewrite, and give it a code name. Big deal - if it helps, great!
> version of Xerces than we have commited to Xerces 1. So, having more
> experience and help from others, I don't see how we'd fail.
I agree - but what I'm afraid of is that Xerces 2 will /not/ garner help
from others, whereas a "perceived revolution" such as Spinnaker will.
Even if IBM has to play the "foil" or "bad guy" initially, isn't it
worth it if at the end Xerces 2, or whatever, is the best, most usable,
parser around?
-Brett
>
> And even if it was a failure after all. Then what? We'd start a new
> version. What's the problem??? On the other hand, as I said in another
> message moving things in CVS is a major pain. So I'd much rather choose
> a place that's independent of its status.
> --
> Arnaud Le Hors - IBM Cupertino, XML Technology Group
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
--
Brett McLaughlin, Enhydra Strategist
Lutris Technologies, Inc.
1200 Pacific Avenue, Suite 300
Santa Cruz, CA 95060 USA
http://www.lutris.com
http://www.enhydra.org
Re: What name?
Posted by Brett McLaughlin <br...@lutris.com>.
Arnaud Le Hors wrote:
>
> [I'm cross posting because having two threads on the two lists is simply
> not productive.]
>
> Brett McLaughlin wrote on xerces-j-dev:
> >
> > Somewhere in here people went from a new project to Xerces 2.
>
> Stefano started it. See
> http://xml-archive.webweaving.org/xml-archive-general/2127.html:
>
> > James is just trying to do the same: start a new codebase to create the
> > itches to scratch.
> >
> >
> > Is it wrong to give it another codename? probably.
This I disagree with - I like Stefano, he's great, but I think this is
not the best idea. I certainly am all for Spinnaker /becoming/ Xerces 2
at some point - I really think a next generation parser is great, and
would love to see Xerces embrace it. What I'm emphasizing is that many,
many people will see Xerces 2, and leave. They have tried Xerces, they
see it's complex, they know what it looks like, and, for better or
worse, it feels like an IBM project.
Even if we all agree "Xerces 2 can start from scratch" people will think
otherwise. It's not right, but it's human nature, and we should cater to
that because we /know/ it will happen. Also, I think its premature to
say we are ready for Xerces 2 - Spinnaker won't even be functionally the
same as Xerces for quite a while, I'm sure - I mean, we're talking ints
vs Strings here. That's very very early. If we call this Xerces 2,
another tendency will be for people to stop forward progress on Xerces -
that is also a bad thing right now - still lots to do in Xerces 1.
For all these reasons, plus the allowance of code from places like
Crimson without an act of congress, plus people's conceptions of Xerces,
I am not comfortable with the name Xerces 2. At the same time, please
understand, I am 100% behind Xerces 2 /being/ Spinnaker if it works out.
> > Is it wrong to place it in another CVS module? probably.
> > Is it wrong to go off without asking first? probably.
> >
> >
> > So, let me start off another option:
> >
> >
> > 1) we forget about spinnaker
> > 2) we create a new CVS branch under xml-xerces where Xerces2 should
> > reside
> > 3) in case, we create a xerces2-dev mail list
>
> To which I said: Sounds great!
>
> Now you wrote:
>
> > I don't
> > know that everyone is happy with Spinnaker starting out as Xerces 2 - I
> > know I am not. I think the right thing is let this thing evolve on its
> > own, without any presumptions about its final resting place. Leave room
> > for complete reinvention, not just upgrades.
>
> The point is that we are interested in working for the next version of
> Xerces. Not just making an experiment. So it's a natural way to call it
> Xerces 2. If it's the number you don't like. Fine. Let's call it Xerces
> NG (Next Generation). But I really wonder why some of you aren't more
I just think that the name "Xerces" carries with it some negative
connotations for /some/ people. I'm not making this up, I swear ;-) I
get mails about this a lot on JDOM and at Enhydra. Let's just avoid that
- then when we make it Xerces 2 (if that is what happens), we can clear
those all away, because people are confident in the newer "code name."
> confident in the success of this. Everybody says Xerces is a great
> success. Even though we all know and recognize it has defiencies. How
> couldn't we do better?? We plan to commit just as much time to this new
We could - but right now, I think two tracks are needed. One to bring
Xerces 1 to a full-blown, completely bug-proof (as much as is
reasonable) parser. Without changing internals. But I think we need a
new start to get the benefit of being able to change internals. We also
need to lower the cost of entry - it is really high. The primary mails I
see for committers are:
OK, Joe Blow just joined us at IBM, can we get some +1s.
Then, 3 other IBM guys +1 him, and he's in. This isn't helpful for
people to see - it also proven by the low number of patches (almost
never) that go to the mailing lists. People ask questions, IBM fixes it.
This is fine, it's life - but let's at least try to improve that
political deficiency by giving people a chance, and by IBM saying
publicly, "Yes, we are willing to work at this, so if a new name helps,
we're for it." That's what I'm getting at - not that Xerces can't
improve.
At the same time, I would maintain that a good, SAX, DOM, JDOM capable
parser can be done in under 500K. I don't believe Xerces can be pared
down 1/2 MB and still be anything but a completely rewritten thing - so
let's rewrite, and give it a code name. Big deal - if it helps, great!
> version of Xerces than we have commited to Xerces 1. So, having more
> experience and help from others, I don't see how we'd fail.
I agree - but what I'm afraid of is that Xerces 2 will /not/ garner help
from others, whereas a "perceived revolution" such as Spinnaker will.
Even if IBM has to play the "foil" or "bad guy" initially, isn't it
worth it if at the end Xerces 2, or whatever, is the best, most usable,
parser around?
-Brett
>
> And even if it was a failure after all. Then what? We'd start a new
> version. What's the problem??? On the other hand, as I said in another
> message moving things in CVS is a major pain. So I'd much rather choose
> a place that's independent of its status.
> --
> Arnaud Le Hors - IBM Cupertino, XML Technology Group
>
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--
Brett McLaughlin, Enhydra Strategist
Lutris Technologies, Inc.
1200 Pacific Avenue, Suite 300
Santa Cruz, CA 95060 USA
http://www.lutris.com
http://www.enhydra.org