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Posted to user@struts.apache.org by Brandon Goodin <ma...@phase.ws> on 2003/04/02 19:25:05 UTC
[Eva Sager] RE: Does a degree matter?
What was your age when you went back to school? I am 29 (30 in August). I am
married and have 2 young children (3,6). School seems to be a considerable
financial/time investment. I just want to make sure I am not starting too
late and doing too much for too little a result.
Brandon Goodin
-----Original Message-----
From: Eva Sager [mailto:Eva.Sager@aelera.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 8:55 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?
This brings up a good point... if all you get out of a degree is learning
specific technology... in a fast changing world you might get left behind.
If you learn how to learn technology... if you learn another way of
thinking... then you just might have something.
My degree is in Computer Engineering and the courses that really taught me
something were the courses that taught me how to solve problems, how to
learn new technologies, and how people and technology relate. The courses
that taught me about technology X didn't mean a thing, because technology X
isn't even around anymore... or has changed so much that what I learned
isn't relevant anymore.
I guess what I am saying is that it might not be a question of "Does a
degree matter?", but "What should I be learning?" and "How can I challenge
myself?". I don't think that my degree by itself has helped me all that
much... but the things I learned while getting it were invaluable.
I have worked with many people who become absolutely paralyzed by complex
problems, while getting my degree I learned to deal with these things. As I
look back, I am not sure how much of it was learned from lecture and books
and how much of it was learned by being thrown into problems and being told
to sink or swim. In a academic environment, if you sink... there is
someone there to pull you out and explain to you what you did wrong and how
to deal with it next time. In a corporate environment you may or may not
have that opportunity... you may just get fired.
I went to a school with a very challenging curriculum, and I went late in
life, as a full time student with a full time job and a family. Some of the
most valuable lessons I learned had to do with time management, crisis
management and how to work in an environment where the best you can hope for
is not to fail too miserably due to the resources at hand (or lack there
of). As I look back... that has come in quite handy... probably more so
than I care to admit ;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Thornton Scott Contractor CADRE/WGTD
[mailto:Scott.Thornton@maxwell.af.mil]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 10:11 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?
I got my degree in Electrical Engineering. One of my good friends got his
masters degree in Cryptography. There are countless other engineers that got
their degree's in technical fields. I loved EE because it just brought my
brain to a new level of thinking. I am a much better problem solver than I
would have ever been had I not studied EE. It also gave me the confidence
that I could brake apart any problem into sub-problems and then solve each
of those sub-problems. BTW, my boss, who was also a developer before he
became a manager, has a PhD in Mathematics. Therefore, my advice is to study
something technically challenging (and hopefully enjoyable) and learn
software development in your language of choice on the side.
-----Original Message-----
From: PILGRIM, Peter, FM [mailto:Peter.PILGRIM@rbos.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 8:23 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:craigmcc@apache.org]
>
> On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Arron Bates wrote:
>
> > Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:21 -0600
> > From: Arron Bates <st...@keyboardmonkey.com>
> >
> > Brandon,
> >
> > If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I
> would hazard offering
> > my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of
> your time. By
--////--
>
> My personal experience (both for myself and for folks I have
> hired over
> the years) mirrors this -- indeed, my personal opinion is
> that a Comp Sci
> degree is worth less (to me as an employer) than a degree in
> some field
> that is more closely associated with the general needs of potential
> employers.
>
> Why? A couple of reasons:
>
> * Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees obsess over learning the
> particular technologies being taught in their classes, at
> the expense
> of courses to improve your general thinking skills. Any specific
> technology you learn in your first year is going to be totally
> obsolete by the time you graduate from the program anyway, so why
> bother? The important skill to employers (at least from my
> viewpoint)
> is that you've learned how to quickly adapt your existing skills to
> new technologies as they become available. Also, the fundamentals
> of good architecture and design practices tend to change much more
> slowly than the favorite language de jour -- so if you decide to go
> for Comp Sci, focus on fundamentals like O-O, design patterns,
> and so on.
I got my degree over 10 years ago, and technology justs moves to fast
to keep. THe first year I learned Pascal. Then second year, I learnt
Concurrent Pascal with a classic book, by Isreali fella, maybe you
might know of it, Ali, Adi. I also learnt Assembly language. In the
forth year I finally learnt Fortran and C, pre-ANSI.
>
> * Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees are so focused on
> the technical
> things, and don't accumulate any domain knowledge along the way that
> would make you *more* valuable to potential employers than another
> Comp Sci graduate with similar skills. If you're building
> e-commerce
> systems, do you know anything about the fundamental accounting
> principles involved in tracking purchases? If you're building
> systems to introduce novices to the world of online information,
> have you ever studied any human factors engineering? If you're
> building trading systems for a Wall Street broker, do you have the
> slightest idea how stock and commodity exchanges work?
>
Definitely. If there a modular course in Investment Banking back in
the 1980's and being where I am now. Knowing what I know now.
I would have go for it like a rancid dog!
> It may surprise some of you to find out that I don't have a Comp Sci
> degree at all -- instead, I got a BA in Business with a focus on
> Accounting. This was ***tremendously*** helpful in setting
> me apart from
> everyone else who was learning programming and systems
> analysis in those
> days -- I could immediately communicate with the end users
> responsible for
> the systems we were building, using their vocabulary, without
> having to be
> trained -- in addition to the fact that I was a fair-to-middlin'
> programmer :-).
>
> If you are looking at going to college today (either because it's that
> time in your life, or because the job market sucks right now), I would
> suggest thinking about a primary major other than Comp Sci
> (with a Comp
> Sci minor to keep your hand in on all the technical stuff).
> The name of
> the game is making yourself more valuable, relative to
> everyone else out
> there -- and, quite frankly, there are more interesting things in the
> world than just computers and web apps :-).
>
> Craig
>
If you are die hard techie, then you should get "first honours" or
"second class honours" from a Computer Science degree, at
British University at least. But I would recommend, strongly,
that you also look at a ``Combined Degree'' such as computing and
international economic, computing and biotechnology (hot!),
computing and engineering, or physical sciences.
Also I would seriously look at humanities, arts related degrees
for good combination. If you are interested in digital arts,
photography, graphic, design and web, you might something
computing related.
Dont do what a lot of people did/do. Bog standard boring.
Mathematics and Computer Science unless, of course, you instead to be
Professor at Oxbridge.
Mix it up
--
Peter Pilgrim,
Struts/J2EE Consultant, RBoS FM, Risk IT
Tel: +44 (0)207-375-4923
********************************************************************
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As this e-mail may contain confidential or privileged information,
if you are not the named addressee, you are not authorised to
retain, read, copy or disseminate this message or any part of it.
The Royal Bank of Scotland plc is registered in Scotland No 90312
Registered Office: 36 St Andrew Square, Edinburgh EH2 2YB
Regulated by the Financial Services Authority
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RE: [Eva Sager] RE: Does a degree matter?
Posted by Robert Taylor <rt...@mulework.com>.
Brandon, I was 29, married, and with a new born when I went back to school
in
1993. I finally graduated in 1999 with a B.A. in CS (Magna Cum Laude).
I worked a full time job, did web development on the side, and took classes
part time. I had to make some sacrifices, but it was worth it in the end.
It opened many windows of opportunity that had be closed.
It appears you have the experience, you just lack the all-important degree
(paper).
Good luck!
robert
-----Original Message-----
From: Brandon Goodin [mailto:mail@phase.ws]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 12:25 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: [Eva Sager] RE: Does a degree matter?
What was your age when you went back to school? I am 29 (30 in August). I am
married and have 2 young children (3,6). School seems to be a considerable
financial/time investment. I just want to make sure I am not starting too
late and doing too much for too little a result.
Brandon Goodin
-----Original Message-----
From: Eva Sager [mailto:Eva.Sager@aelera.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 8:55 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?
This brings up a good point... if all you get out of a degree is learning
specific technology... in a fast changing world you might get left behind.
If you learn how to learn technology... if you learn another way of
thinking... then you just might have something.
My degree is in Computer Engineering and the courses that really taught me
something were the courses that taught me how to solve problems, how to
learn new technologies, and how people and technology relate. The courses
that taught me about technology X didn't mean a thing, because technology X
isn't even around anymore... or has changed so much that what I learned
isn't relevant anymore.
I guess what I am saying is that it might not be a question of "Does a
degree matter?", but "What should I be learning?" and "How can I challenge
myself?". I don't think that my degree by itself has helped me all that
much... but the things I learned while getting it were invaluable.
I have worked with many people who become absolutely paralyzed by complex
problems, while getting my degree I learned to deal with these things. As I
look back, I am not sure how much of it was learned from lecture and books
and how much of it was learned by being thrown into problems and being told
to sink or swim. In a academic environment, if you sink... there is
someone there to pull you out and explain to you what you did wrong and how
to deal with it next time. In a corporate environment you may or may not
have that opportunity... you may just get fired.
I went to a school with a very challenging curriculum, and I went late in
life, as a full time student with a full time job and a family. Some of the
most valuable lessons I learned had to do with time management, crisis
management and how to work in an environment where the best you can hope for
is not to fail too miserably due to the resources at hand (or lack there
of). As I look back... that has come in quite handy... probably more so
than I care to admit ;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Thornton Scott Contractor CADRE/WGTD
[mailto:Scott.Thornton@maxwell.af.mil]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 10:11 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?
I got my degree in Electrical Engineering. One of my good friends got his
masters degree in Cryptography. There are countless other engineers that got
their degree's in technical fields. I loved EE because it just brought my
brain to a new level of thinking. I am a much better problem solver than I
would have ever been had I not studied EE. It also gave me the confidence
that I could brake apart any problem into sub-problems and then solve each
of those sub-problems. BTW, my boss, who was also a developer before he
became a manager, has a PhD in Mathematics. Therefore, my advice is to study
something technically challenging (and hopefully enjoyable) and learn
software development in your language of choice on the side.
-----Original Message-----
From: PILGRIM, Peter, FM [mailto:Peter.PILGRIM@rbos.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 8:23 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:craigmcc@apache.org]
>
> On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Arron Bates wrote:
>
> > Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:21 -0600
> > From: Arron Bates <st...@keyboardmonkey.com>
> >
> > Brandon,
> >
> > If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I
> would hazard offering
> > my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of
> your time. By
--////--
>
> My personal experience (both for myself and for folks I have
> hired over
> the years) mirrors this -- indeed, my personal opinion is
> that a Comp Sci
> degree is worth less (to me as an employer) than a degree in
> some field
> that is more closely associated with the general needs of potential
> employers.
>
> Why? A couple of reasons:
>
> * Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees obsess over learning the
> particular technologies being taught in their classes, at
> the expense
> of courses to improve your general thinking skills. Any specific
> technology you learn in your first year is going to be totally
> obsolete by the time you graduate from the program anyway, so why
> bother? The important skill to employers (at least from my
> viewpoint)
> is that you've learned how to quickly adapt your existing skills to
> new technologies as they become available. Also, the fundamentals
> of good architecture and design practices tend to change much more
> slowly than the favorite language de jour -- so if you decide to go
> for Comp Sci, focus on fundamentals like O-O, design patterns,
> and so on.
I got my degree over 10 years ago, and technology justs moves to fast
to keep. THe first year I learned Pascal. Then second year, I learnt
Concurrent Pascal with a classic book, by Isreali fella, maybe you
might know of it, Ali, Adi. I also learnt Assembly language. In the
forth year I finally learnt Fortran and C, pre-ANSI.
>
> * Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees are so focused on
> the technical
> things, and don't accumulate any domain knowledge along the way that
> would make you *more* valuable to potential employers than another
> Comp Sci graduate with similar skills. If you're building
> e-commerce
> systems, do you know anything about the fundamental accounting
> principles involved in tracking purchases? If you're building
> systems to introduce novices to the world of online information,
> have you ever studied any human factors engineering? If you're
> building trading systems for a Wall Street broker, do you have the
> slightest idea how stock and commodity exchanges work?
>
Definitely. If there a modular course in Investment Banking back in
the 1980's and being where I am now. Knowing what I know now.
I would have go for it like a rancid dog!
> It may surprise some of you to find out that I don't have a Comp Sci
> degree at all -- instead, I got a BA in Business with a focus on
> Accounting. This was ***tremendously*** helpful in setting
> me apart from
> everyone else who was learning programming and systems
> analysis in those
> days -- I could immediately communicate with the end users
> responsible for
> the systems we were building, using their vocabulary, without
> having to be
> trained -- in addition to the fact that I was a fair-to-middlin'
> programmer :-).
>
> If you are looking at going to college today (either because it's that
> time in your life, or because the job market sucks right now), I would
> suggest thinking about a primary major other than Comp Sci
> (with a Comp
> Sci minor to keep your hand in on all the technical stuff).
> The name of
> the game is making yourself more valuable, relative to
> everyone else out
> there -- and, quite frankly, there are more interesting things in the
> world than just computers and web apps :-).
>
> Craig
>
If you are die hard techie, then you should get "first honours" or
"second class honours" from a Computer Science degree, at
British University at least. But I would recommend, strongly,
that you also look at a ``Combined Degree'' such as computing and
international economic, computing and biotechnology (hot!),
computing and engineering, or physical sciences.
Also I would seriously look at humanities, arts related degrees
for good combination. If you are interested in digital arts,
photography, graphic, design and web, you might something
computing related.
Dont do what a lot of people did/do. Bog standard boring.
Mathematics and Computer Science unless, of course, you instead to be
Professor at Oxbridge.
Mix it up
--
Peter Pilgrim,
Struts/J2EE Consultant, RBoS FM, Risk IT
Tel: +44 (0)207-375-4923
********************************************************************
Visit our Internet site at http://www.rbsmarkets.com
This e-mail is intended only for the addressee named above.
As this e-mail may contain confidential or privileged information,
if you are not the named addressee, you are not authorised to
retain, read, copy or disseminate this message or any part of it.
The Royal Bank of Scotland plc is registered in Scotland No 90312
Registered Office: 36 St Andrew Square, Edinburgh EH2 2YB
Regulated by the Financial Services Authority
********************************************************************
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: struts-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
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