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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by dan roch <da...@gmail.com> on 2012/08/12 14:48:08 UTC
OO Sold on eBay
FYI
I don't know if this goes agaist OO rules but this user on eBay is selling
copies of OO.
ebay user: allsorts-est-2011
auction
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Office-for-Home-and-Student-2007-2010-2012-For-Microsoft-Windows-XP-Vista-7-/110922521399?pt=UK_Computing_Software_Software_SR&hash=item19d37f5b37#ht_8329wt_1026
Re: OO Sold on eBay
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 12 August 2012 17:38, Max Merbald <ma...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'd say it's not very fair because probably not everyone knows OOO is
> available for free. It's kind of weird that someone is trying to make money
> with something which is available for free.
The page does actually say (near the bottom)
"Please note that this software is a very good application and can be
downloaded free from the internet"
However it does not link to the ASF, nor does it mention Apache.
Note: OOo itself is free, however Internet access is generally not free.
There may be people who prefer to pay for a CD rather than download software.
> Max
>
>
> Am 12.08.2012 18:19, schrieb Kay Schenk:
>
>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:48 AM, dan roch <da...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> FYI
>>>
>>> I don't know if this goes agaist OO rules but this user on eBay is
>>> selling
>>> copies of OO.
>>>
>>>
>>> ebay user: allsorts-est-2011
>>>
>>> auction
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Office-for-Home-and-Student-2007-2010-2012-For-Microsoft-Windows-XP-Vista-7-/110922521399?pt=UK_Computing_Software_Software_SR&hash=item19d37f5b37#ht_8329wt_1026
>>>
>> This has come up before...there is no issue with selling ANY copy of
>> OpenOffice (old or new) as long as the vendor complies with licensing or
>> trademark requirements.
>>
>> This bit at the bottom --
>>
>> *Items contained on this CD are under the terms of the GNU License, the
>> GNU
>> Lesser General Public Licences (LPGL) or the Mozilla Public Licence*
>>
>> well let's hope it's right.
>>
>> see also, our local Distribution FAQ--
>>
>> http://www.openoffice.org/distribution/
>>
>
Re: OO Sold on eBay
Posted by Graham Lauder <g....@gmail.com>.
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:19 AM, Graham Lauder <g....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 13 August 2012 01:29, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> > On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >> >> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> >>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Max Merbald <ma...@gmx.de>
[....]
> >> > Our options:
> >> >
> >> > 1) Do nothing. Bandwidth and access is increasing and this problem
> >> > will solve itself...sometime.
> >
> > This would the best course, although I don't that there is a problem.
> > Quite the opposite, it is in fact a good thing. People are thinking
> > like proprietary software vendors, please get out of this trap.
> >
> > Ebay sellers are cheap promotion, they get the brand out there.
>
> Maybe the auction listing are different in your country, but here they
> are not promoting the Apache OpenOffice brand. We're seeing listings
> selling things like:
>
> "Open Office Suite 2010"
>
> "Open Office Home and Student 2010"
>
> "Open Office Professional' 2010"
>
> "Open Office Business and Professional"
>
> This seems to be taking Microsoft Office brand elements and putting
> "Open" in front of them. I don't see this as promoting our brand.
Apologies I didn't make myself clear enough.
As has been pointed out on numerous occasions, it doesn't matter what bits we
stick around the name (dot org in the old one, Apache on this one) the market
will still refer to it as Open Office. Therefore what you have quoted above
is 4 instances of the brand being put out there. Whatever is tagged on the
back it doesn't matter.
In any case that was not what I was referring too, the brand is in the
software, by selling it the EBay sellers put our brand on the best billboard
going: The Users Desktop. That is critical. The User who buys from the EBay
Sellers isn't specifically after OOo or MSO, they are after a package that
performs the tasks of an Office suite for a reasonable cost. Once the User
installs the software, it will make them aware of any updates which then
brings them to us. It is not the act of Advertising that raises the brand
awareness it is the installation and the brand on the splash screen.
>
> > The vast majority of the EBay sellers do the brand a service. Getting
> > someone to do it on behalf of the project is just a waste of energy that
> > could be put to better use. We would be better to promote the EBay
> > sellers, treat them as partners rather than competitors. EBay tends
> > to be self policing, the unscrupulous ones get bad feedback and
> > disappear fairly quickly.
>
> If it is worth someone else's time and effort to do this, why wouldn't
> it be worth my time and effort?
In the Bazaar model, we spread the load. We can look at the EBay sellers as
people who embrace the Apache ideal. They saw a need and applied JFDI. My
concern is that we are thin on resources. Your time and effort on the
administration is a better value proposition to the project than your selling
CDs on ebay. Of course it is an OSS project and you are free to do whatever
rocks your boat. Personally I would see more value in a gentle policing just
by using the question & answer feature.
>
> > If they are selling older versions, my answer to that is "So what?" My
> > wife still uses 3.0 and it suits her needs perfectly. When the user
> > decides that perhaps downloading is the better way to go then they will
> > automatically get the latest version. Having the latest and greatest is
> > not the be all and end all.
>
> The issue is when they say it is the latest version but they are
> really selling OOo 3.2. Maybe you are not aware of the security
> flaws, now publicly disclosed, in older versions of OpenOffice?
Heh, You are obviously not aware that I follow such assiduously but perhaps
you may be more aware of instances of exploits in the real world that I am
not. For the average consumer the sort of security issues we deal with are a
non-event and besides which, the first update the End User does, will solve
that issue in any case. Many of the sellers that I've seen don't even specify
a version at all. OOo has never had a "Use By" date. For corporate clients I
agree the security stuff would be an issue but they are very unlikely to
obtain their OOo from Ebay.
[....]
>
> I think the feedback we have received from users suggests otherwise.
> They are looking for a trusted source of CDs.
There is one seller who sells them for $US40, he has a good selling set up and
sells it alongside MS office and other software. Going by his feedback he has
a lot of satisfied customers, certainly a lot more than we have complaints.
IMHO $40 is probably the minimum one should charge if they were honest about
their costs of operation and the need to at least turn a small profit and I've
always felt that selling it for $5 or $2.99 devalues the product more than
giving it away. Value is a tricky beast, I have stated in the past that we
would probably be better to encourage our community distributors to sell for a
price that better reflects the cost of their input including an allowance for
support post purchase.
>
> >> > 3) One or more community members, acting outside of Apache, could
> >> > organize to sell CD's on eBay at cost, and have eBay auction listings
> >> > that are upfront and honest, explaining that the software is open
> >> > source and can be downloaded for free. We can give the URL right in
> >> > the listing. We would make it clear that the charge is only for
> >> > convenience of having a CD delivered.
> >
> > Putting a URL in the body of the listing that allows people to circumvent
> > the auction process is against EBay TOU.
>
> Not at all. The listing would make it quite clear that the sale was
> for the CD media and packing and shipping only. Nothing wrong with
> that if the listing is up front about this.
EBay's terms say:
"While using eBay sites, services and tools, you will not:
circumvent or manipulate our fee structure, the billing process, or fees owed
to eBay."
Inserting a URL to a free download of software you are selling is considered
circumventing the process, the point that they will make is that noone is
going to buy a CD off you unless it has the software on it.
I know this having gone into bat with Auction sites for Sellers in my old
MarCon role.
Cheers
GL
Re: OO Sold on eBay
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:19 AM, Graham Lauder <g....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 13 August 2012 01:29, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>> > On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>> >>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Max Merbald <ma...@gmx.de>
> wrote:
>> >>> > Hi,
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I'd say it's not very fair because probably not everyone knows OOO is
>> >>> > available for free. It's kind of weird that someone is trying to make
>> >>>
>> >>> money
>> >>>
>> >>> > with something which is available for free.
>> >>>
>> >>> I wonder... is there anything that prevents one of us from offering
>> >>> the same thing on eBay, but at a near-zero price? For example, would
>> >>> it be within eBay policy to have an auction for "instructions for
>> >>> downloading OpenOffice"? Give all the same marketing plugs for
>> >>> features, etc., but set it as a "Buy Now" price of 1-cent or
>> >>> something.
>> >>>
>> >>> Some users want a CD, because of bandwidth limitations. But the cost
>> >>> of information, in this case, should be nearly zero.
>> >>>
>> >>> -Rob
>> >>
>> >> You might want to check out seller requirements first...
>> >>
>> >> http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/questions/sell-requirements.html
>> >>
>> >> I would think if we're willing to "do" this -- and set this up somehow,
>> >> the answer is "no" unless ASF precludes this, which it might.
>> >
>> > Drew mentioned another eBay policy that said you could not sell access
>> > to downloaded software. You could only sell the media.
>> >
>> > Looking at the ebay auctions, some of them seem reasonable. $3 or $5
>> > for a CD and packaging, shipping, etc., is not outrageous.
>> >
>> > But I am concerned that several of the auctions seem to be selling old
>> > versions of OpenOffice including 3.2 and 3.1. These earlier versions
>> > lack important security fixes and those who distribute old versions,
>> > without a warning, are putting their customers at risk.
>> >
>> > As a project we take great pains to ensure the users who download from
>> > our website get authentic versions of our software, the latest
>> > versions, not tampered with. We give the downloader ways of verifying
>> > this, with MD5 hashes and PGP signatures.
>> >
>> > But there is no current way that we can offer similar assurances to
>> > users who purchase a CD. (Anyone who thinks users will verify
>> > checksums or signatures on a CD is deluded.)
>> >
>> > Our options:
>> >
>> > 1) Do nothing. Bandwidth and access is increasing and this problem
>> > will solve itself...sometime.
>
> This would the best course, although I don't that there is a problem. Quite
> the opposite, it is in fact a good thing. People are thinking like
> proprietary software vendors, please get out of this trap.
>
> Ebay sellers are cheap promotion, they get the brand out there.
Maybe the auction listing are different in your country, but here they
are not promoting the Apache OpenOffice brand. We're seeing listings
selling things like:
"Open Office Suite 2010"
"Open Office Home and Student 2010"
"Open Office Professional' 2010"
"Open Office Business and Professional"
This seems to be taking Microsoft Office brand elements and putting
"Open" in front of them. I don't see this as promoting our brand.
> People who return to those sellers do it to save bandwidth. The people who buy
> off them the first time but who do have bandwidth, may not do it a second time
> because they figure out pretty quickly that the name is a web address, or at
> least they used to. Also many people like dealing with a person rather than a
> server.
>
I have no objections to someone who sells a CD with the latest version of AOO.
> The vast majority of the EBay sellers do the brand a service. Getting someone
> to do it on behalf of the project is just a waste of energy that could be put
> to better use. We would be better to promote the EBay sellers, treat them as
> partners rather than competitors. EBay tends to be self policing, the
> unscrupulous ones get bad feedback and disappear fairly quickly.
>
If it is worth someone else's time and effort to do this, why wouldn't
it be worth my time and effort?
> If they are selling older versions, my answer to that is "So what?" My wife
> still uses 3.0 and it suits her needs perfectly. When the user decides that
> perhaps downloading is the better way to go then they will automatically get
> the latest version. Having the latest and greatest is not the be all and end
> all.
>
The issue is when they say it is the latest version but they are
really selling OOo 3.2. Maybe you are not aware of the security
flaws, now publicly disclosed, in older versions of OpenOffice?
>
>> >
>> > 2) Define voluntary requirements for distributors of OpenOffice.
>> > Those who agree to these requirements would be allowed use of a
>> > special logo and would be listed on our website.
>
> More bureaucracy that is unneeded
>
I think the feedback we have received from users suggests otherwise.
They are looking for a trusted source of CDs.
>> >
>> > 3) One or more community members, acting outside of Apache, could
>> > organize to sell CD's on eBay at cost, and have eBay auction listings
>> > that are upfront and honest, explaining that the software is open
>> > source and can be downloaded for free. We can give the URL right in
>> > the listing. We would make it clear that the charge is only for
>> > convenience of having a CD delivered.
>
> Putting a URL in the body of the listing that allows people to circumvent the
> auction process is against EBay TOU.
>
Not at all. The listing would make it quite clear that the sale was
for the CD media and packing and shipping only. Nothing wrong with
that if the listing is up front about this.
>>
>> Is it worth approaching eBay with our concerns?
>
> No, because there are none
>
Agreed, unless we can show copyright or trademark issues, eBay doesn't care.
>> - ensuring that sellers credit (and link to) the ASF
>
> They are selling OOo, that's enough credit, these people are our retailers.
> We, the project, do not supply the software on media, just like Heinz gets
> supermarkets to sell their beans rather than only supply from a Heinz shop.
>
>> - ensuring that sellers provide clear information on the version supplied
>
> EBay won't do anything like that, their policing is along strict guidelines.
> Their actions are strictly binary: Allow or Ban. The value to EBay of OSS
> software sales is miniscule, it's less headache just to ban the sale full stop
> and we lose a really good cheap marketing tool
>
>> - ensuring that sellers provide the current version.
>> - etc.
>
> None of the above is necessary, the status quo works. It just requires a
> little explanation on occasion.
>
> Cheers
> GL
>
Re: OO Sold on eBay
Posted by Graham Lauder <g....@gmail.com>.
> On 13 August 2012 01:29, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Max Merbald <ma...@gmx.de>
wrote:
> >>> > Hi,
> >>> >
> >>> > I'd say it's not very fair because probably not everyone knows OOO is
> >>> > available for free. It's kind of weird that someone is trying to make
> >>>
> >>> money
> >>>
> >>> > with something which is available for free.
> >>>
> >>> I wonder... is there anything that prevents one of us from offering
> >>> the same thing on eBay, but at a near-zero price? For example, would
> >>> it be within eBay policy to have an auction for "instructions for
> >>> downloading OpenOffice"? Give all the same marketing plugs for
> >>> features, etc., but set it as a "Buy Now" price of 1-cent or
> >>> something.
> >>>
> >>> Some users want a CD, because of bandwidth limitations. But the cost
> >>> of information, in this case, should be nearly zero.
> >>>
> >>> -Rob
> >>
> >> You might want to check out seller requirements first...
> >>
> >> http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/questions/sell-requirements.html
> >>
> >> I would think if we're willing to "do" this -- and set this up somehow,
> >> the answer is "no" unless ASF precludes this, which it might.
> >
> > Drew mentioned another eBay policy that said you could not sell access
> > to downloaded software. You could only sell the media.
> >
> > Looking at the ebay auctions, some of them seem reasonable. $3 or $5
> > for a CD and packaging, shipping, etc., is not outrageous.
> >
> > But I am concerned that several of the auctions seem to be selling old
> > versions of OpenOffice including 3.2 and 3.1. These earlier versions
> > lack important security fixes and those who distribute old versions,
> > without a warning, are putting their customers at risk.
> >
> > As a project we take great pains to ensure the users who download from
> > our website get authentic versions of our software, the latest
> > versions, not tampered with. We give the downloader ways of verifying
> > this, with MD5 hashes and PGP signatures.
> >
> > But there is no current way that we can offer similar assurances to
> > users who purchase a CD. (Anyone who thinks users will verify
> > checksums or signatures on a CD is deluded.)
> >
> > Our options:
> >
> > 1) Do nothing. Bandwidth and access is increasing and this problem
> > will solve itself...sometime.
This would the best course, although I don't that there is a problem. Quite
the opposite, it is in fact a good thing. People are thinking like
proprietary software vendors, please get out of this trap.
Ebay sellers are cheap promotion, they get the brand out there.
People who return to those sellers do it to save bandwidth. The people who buy
off them the first time but who do have bandwidth, may not do it a second time
because they figure out pretty quickly that the name is a web address, or at
least they used to. Also many people like dealing with a person rather than a
server.
The vast majority of the EBay sellers do the brand a service. Getting someone
to do it on behalf of the project is just a waste of energy that could be put
to better use. We would be better to promote the EBay sellers, treat them as
partners rather than competitors. EBay tends to be self policing, the
unscrupulous ones get bad feedback and disappear fairly quickly.
If they are selling older versions, my answer to that is "So what?" My wife
still uses 3.0 and it suits her needs perfectly. When the user decides that
perhaps downloading is the better way to go then they will automatically get
the latest version. Having the latest and greatest is not the be all and end
all.
> >
> > 2) Define voluntary requirements for distributors of OpenOffice.
> > Those who agree to these requirements would be allowed use of a
> > special logo and would be listed on our website.
More bureaucracy that is unneeded
> >
> > 3) One or more community members, acting outside of Apache, could
> > organize to sell CD's on eBay at cost, and have eBay auction listings
> > that are upfront and honest, explaining that the software is open
> > source and can be downloaded for free. We can give the URL right in
> > the listing. We would make it clear that the charge is only for
> > convenience of having a CD delivered.
Putting a URL in the body of the listing that allows people to circumvent the
auction process is against EBay TOU.
>
> Is it worth approaching eBay with our concerns?
No, because there are none
> - ensuring that sellers credit (and link to) the ASF
They are selling OOo, that's enough credit, these people are our retailers.
We, the project, do not supply the software on media, just like Heinz gets
supermarkets to sell their beans rather than only supply from a Heinz shop.
> - ensuring that sellers provide clear information on the version supplied
EBay won't do anything like that, their policing is along strict guidelines.
Their actions are strictly binary: Allow or Ban. The value to EBay of OSS
software sales is miniscule, it's less headache just to ban the sale full stop
and we lose a really good cheap marketing tool
> - ensuring that sellers provide the current version.
> - etc.
None of the above is necessary, the status quo works. It just requires a
little explanation on occasion.
Cheers
GL
Re: OO Sold on eBay
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 13 August 2012 01:29, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Max Merbald <ma...@gmx.de> wrote:
>>> > Hi,
>>> >
>>> > I'd say it's not very fair because probably not everyone knows OOO is
>>> > available for free. It's kind of weird that someone is trying to make
>>> money
>>> > with something which is available for free.
>>> >
>>>
>>> I wonder... is there anything that prevents one of us from offering
>>> the same thing on eBay, but at a near-zero price? For example, would
>>> it be within eBay policy to have an auction for "instructions for
>>> downloading OpenOffice"? Give all the same marketing plugs for
>>> features, etc., but set it as a "Buy Now" price of 1-cent or
>>> something.
>>>
>>> Some users want a CD, because of bandwidth limitations. But the cost
>>> of information, in this case, should be nearly zero.
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>
>> You might want to check out seller requirements first...
>>
>> http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/questions/sell-requirements.html
>>
>> I would think if we're willing to "do" this -- and set this up somehow, the
>> answer is "no" unless ASF precludes this, which it might.
>>
>
> Drew mentioned another eBay policy that said you could not sell access
> to downloaded software. You could only sell the media.
>
> Looking at the ebay auctions, some of them seem reasonable. $3 or $5
> for a CD and packaging, shipping, etc., is not outrageous.
>
> But I am concerned that several of the auctions seem to be selling old
> versions of OpenOffice including 3.2 and 3.1. These earlier versions
> lack important security fixes and those who distribute old versions,
> without a warning, are putting their customers at risk.
>
> As a project we take great pains to ensure the users who download from
> our website get authentic versions of our software, the latest
> versions, not tampered with. We give the downloader ways of verifying
> this, with MD5 hashes and PGP signatures.
>
> But there is no current way that we can offer similar assurances to
> users who purchase a CD. (Anyone who thinks users will verify
> checksums or signatures on a CD is deluded.)
>
> Our options:
>
> 1) Do nothing. Bandwidth and access is increasing and this problem
> will solve itself...sometime.
>
> 2) Define voluntary requirements for distributors of OpenOffice.
> Those who agree to these requirements would be allowed use of a
> special logo and would be listed on our website.
>
> 3) One or more community members, acting outside of Apache, could
> organize to sell CD's on eBay at cost, and have eBay auction listings
> that are upfront and honest, explaining that the software is open
> source and can be downloaded for free. We can give the URL right in
> the listing. We would make it clear that the charge is only for
> convenience of having a CD delivered.
Is it worth approaching eBay with our concerns?
- ensuring that sellers credit (and link to) the ASF
- ensuring that sellers provide clear information on the version supplied
- ensuring that sellers provide the current version.
- etc.
Note: the seller page mentioned in this thread says:
>>>
Open Office 3.3
...
* This is the very latest version and fully updated.
<<<
That would be a good example of one of our concerns.
>>
>>>
>>> > Max
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Am 12.08.2012 18:19, schrieb Kay Schenk:
>>> >
>>> >> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:48 AM, dan roch <da...@gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> FYI
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I don't know if this goes agaist OO rules but this user on eBay is
>>> >>> selling
>>> >>> copies of OO.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ebay user: allsorts-est-2011
>>> >>>
>>> >>> auction
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Office-for-Home-and-Student-2007-2010-2012-For-Microsoft-Windows-XP-Vista-7-/110922521399?pt=UK_Computing_Software_Software_SR&hash=item19d37f5b37#ht_8329wt_1026
>>> >>>
>>> >> This has come up before...there is no issue with selling ANY copy of
>>> >> OpenOffice (old or new) as long as the vendor complies with licensing or
>>> >> trademark requirements.
>>> >>
>>> >> This bit at the bottom --
>>> >>
>>> >> *Items contained on this CD are under the terms of the GNU License, the
>>> >> GNU
>>> >> Lesser General Public Licences (LPGL) or the Mozilla Public Licence*
>>> >>
>>> >> well let's hope it's right.
>>> >>
>>> >> see also, our local Distribution FAQ--
>>> >>
>>> >> http://www.openoffice.org/distribution/
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> MzK
>>
>> "Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think."
>> --
>> Niels Bohr
Re: OO Sold on eBay
Posted by Fernando Cassia <fc...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> But I am concerned that several of the auctions seem to be selling old
> versions of OpenOffice including 3.2 and 3.1. These earlier versions
> lack important security fixes and those who distribute old versions,
> without a warning, are putting their customers at risk.
If you ask me (which you haven´t ;) this is a tempest in a teapot.
Move along, nothing to see here. Which is exactly new about people
selling ancient software on eBay??. In fact some might want to buy
ancient software due to being a collector´s item etc.
IE I bought an original version of Paint Shop Pro 5.0, released at
the time of the Windows 98 release or thereabout. It turns out to be
the best bitmap editor I´ve seen (for my needs), works well under WINE
on Linux, and beinfg designed to run on Pentium I computers with
64-128MB of RAM, just flies in today´s hardware.
Previously to that, I used Micrografx Picture Publisher 4.0 which I
used for about a decade (16-bit windows 3.x app under 32-bit IBM
OS/2).
I don´t see Microsoft going after people selling Microsoft OS/2 1.2 on
eBay or Windows 3.11 boxes or Windows 2000. Why should Apache waste
time on this non-issue?.
The only conceivable way Apache should be concerned is if someone
labels it "the latest version of Open Office" and sells outdated
versions instead. Is that the case here?.
Just my $0.02
FC
--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act
Durante épocas de Engaño Universal, decir la verdad se convierte en un
Acto Revolucionario
- George Orwell
Re: OO Sold on eBay
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Max Merbald <ma...@gmx.de> wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I'd say it's not very fair because probably not everyone knows OOO is
>> > available for free. It's kind of weird that someone is trying to make
>> money
>> > with something which is available for free.
>> >
>>
>> I wonder... is there anything that prevents one of us from offering
>> the same thing on eBay, but at a near-zero price? For example, would
>> it be within eBay policy to have an auction for "instructions for
>> downloading OpenOffice"? Give all the same marketing plugs for
>> features, etc., but set it as a "Buy Now" price of 1-cent or
>> something.
>>
>> Some users want a CD, because of bandwidth limitations. But the cost
>> of information, in this case, should be nearly zero.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>
> You might want to check out seller requirements first...
>
> http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/questions/sell-requirements.html
>
> I would think if we're willing to "do" this -- and set this up somehow, the
> answer is "no" unless ASF precludes this, which it might.
>
Drew mentioned another eBay policy that said you could not sell access
to downloaded software. You could only sell the media.
Looking at the ebay auctions, some of them seem reasonable. $3 or $5
for a CD and packaging, shipping, etc., is not outrageous.
But I am concerned that several of the auctions seem to be selling old
versions of OpenOffice including 3.2 and 3.1. These earlier versions
lack important security fixes and those who distribute old versions,
without a warning, are putting their customers at risk.
As a project we take great pains to ensure the users who download from
our website get authentic versions of our software, the latest
versions, not tampered with. We give the downloader ways of verifying
this, with MD5 hashes and PGP signatures.
But there is no current way that we can offer similar assurances to
users who purchase a CD. (Anyone who thinks users will verify
checksums or signatures on a CD is deluded.)
Our options:
1) Do nothing. Bandwidth and access is increasing and this problem
will solve itself...sometime.
2) Define voluntary requirements for distributors of OpenOffice.
Those who agree to these requirements would be allowed use of a
special logo and would be listed on our website.
3) One or more community members, acting outside of Apache, could
organize to sell CD's on eBay at cost, and have eBay auction listings
that are upfront and honest, explaining that the software is open
source and can be downloaded for free. We can give the URL right in
the listing. We would make it clear that the charge is only for
convenience of having a CD delivered.
>
>>
>> > Max
>> >
>> >
>> > Am 12.08.2012 18:19, schrieb Kay Schenk:
>> >
>> >> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:48 AM, dan roch <da...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> FYI
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't know if this goes agaist OO rules but this user on eBay is
>> >>> selling
>> >>> copies of OO.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ebay user: allsorts-est-2011
>> >>>
>> >>> auction
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Office-for-Home-and-Student-2007-2010-2012-For-Microsoft-Windows-XP-Vista-7-/110922521399?pt=UK_Computing_Software_Software_SR&hash=item19d37f5b37#ht_8329wt_1026
>> >>>
>> >> This has come up before...there is no issue with selling ANY copy of
>> >> OpenOffice (old or new) as long as the vendor complies with licensing or
>> >> trademark requirements.
>> >>
>> >> This bit at the bottom --
>> >>
>> >> *Items contained on this CD are under the terms of the GNU License, the
>> >> GNU
>> >> Lesser General Public Licences (LPGL) or the Mozilla Public Licence*
>> >>
>> >> well let's hope it's right.
>> >>
>> >> see also, our local Distribution FAQ--
>> >>
>> >> http://www.openoffice.org/distribution/
>> >>
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MzK
>
> "Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think."
> --
> Niels Bohr
Re: OO Sold on eBay
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Max Merbald <ma...@gmx.de> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'd say it's not very fair because probably not everyone knows OOO is
> > available for free. It's kind of weird that someone is trying to make
> money
> > with something which is available for free.
> >
>
> I wonder... is there anything that prevents one of us from offering
> the same thing on eBay, but at a near-zero price? For example, would
> it be within eBay policy to have an auction for "instructions for
> downloading OpenOffice"? Give all the same marketing plugs for
> features, etc., but set it as a "Buy Now" price of 1-cent or
> something.
>
> Some users want a CD, because of bandwidth limitations. But the cost
> of information, in this case, should be nearly zero.
>
> -Rob
>
You might want to check out seller requirements first...
http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/questions/sell-requirements.html
I would think if we're willing to "do" this -- and set this up somehow, the
answer is "no" unless ASF precludes this, which it might.
>
> > Max
> >
> >
> > Am 12.08.2012 18:19, schrieb Kay Schenk:
> >
> >> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:48 AM, dan roch <da...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> FYI
> >>>
> >>> I don't know if this goes agaist OO rules but this user on eBay is
> >>> selling
> >>> copies of OO.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ebay user: allsorts-est-2011
> >>>
> >>> auction
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Office-for-Home-and-Student-2007-2010-2012-For-Microsoft-Windows-XP-Vista-7-/110922521399?pt=UK_Computing_Software_Software_SR&hash=item19d37f5b37#ht_8329wt_1026
> >>>
> >> This has come up before...there is no issue with selling ANY copy of
> >> OpenOffice (old or new) as long as the vendor complies with licensing or
> >> trademark requirements.
> >>
> >> This bit at the bottom --
> >>
> >> *Items contained on this CD are under the terms of the GNU License, the
> >> GNU
> >> Lesser General Public Licences (LPGL) or the Mozilla Public Licence*
> >>
> >> well let's hope it's right.
> >>
> >> see also, our local Distribution FAQ--
> >>
> >> http://www.openoffice.org/distribution/
> >>
> >
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
"Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think."
--
Niels Bohr
Re: OO Sold on eBay
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Sun, 2012-08-12 at 13:49 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Max Merbald <ma...@gmx.de> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'd say it's not very fair because probably not everyone knows OOO is
> > available for free. It's kind of weird that someone is trying to make money
> > with something which is available for free.
> >
>
> I wonder... is there anything that prevents one of us from offering
> the same thing on eBay, but at a near-zero price? For example, would
> it be within eBay policy to have an auction for "instructions for
> downloading OpenOffice"? Give all the same marketing plugs for
> features, etc., but set it as a "Buy Now" price of 1-cent or
> something.
>
> Some users want a CD, because of bandwidth limitations. But the cost
> of information, in this case, should be nearly zero.
>
> -Rob
Hi Rob,
TTBOMK the rules are:
- Selling a CD/DVD or any physical media is allowed on eBay
- Selling a link to download software is not allowed
likely then this would fall afoul of their policies.
It's a good idea though.
//drew
>
>
> > Max
> >
> >
> > Am 12.08.2012 18:19, schrieb Kay Schenk:
> >
> >> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:48 AM, dan roch <da...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> FYI
> >>>
> >>> I don't know if this goes agaist OO rules but this user on eBay is
> >>> selling
> >>> copies of OO.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ebay user: allsorts-est-2011
> >>>
> >>> auction
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Office-for-Home-and-Student-2007-2010-2012-For-Microsoft-Windows-XP-Vista-7-/110922521399?pt=UK_Computing_Software_Software_SR&hash=item19d37f5b37#ht_8329wt_1026
> >>>
> >> This has come up before...there is no issue with selling ANY copy of
> >> OpenOffice (old or new) as long as the vendor complies with licensing or
> >> trademark requirements.
> >>
> >> This bit at the bottom --
> >>
> >> *Items contained on this CD are under the terms of the GNU License, the
> >> GNU
> >> Lesser General Public Licences (LPGL) or the Mozilla Public Licence*
> >>
> >> well let's hope it's right.
> >>
> >> see also, our local Distribution FAQ--
> >>
> >> http://www.openoffice.org/distribution/
> >>
> >
>
Re: OO Sold on eBay
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Max Merbald <ma...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'd say it's not very fair because probably not everyone knows OOO is
> available for free. It's kind of weird that someone is trying to make money
> with something which is available for free.
>
I wonder... is there anything that prevents one of us from offering
the same thing on eBay, but at a near-zero price? For example, would
it be within eBay policy to have an auction for "instructions for
downloading OpenOffice"? Give all the same marketing plugs for
features, etc., but set it as a "Buy Now" price of 1-cent or
something.
Some users want a CD, because of bandwidth limitations. But the cost
of information, in this case, should be nearly zero.
-Rob
> Max
>
>
> Am 12.08.2012 18:19, schrieb Kay Schenk:
>
>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:48 AM, dan roch <da...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> FYI
>>>
>>> I don't know if this goes agaist OO rules but this user on eBay is
>>> selling
>>> copies of OO.
>>>
>>>
>>> ebay user: allsorts-est-2011
>>>
>>> auction
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Office-for-Home-and-Student-2007-2010-2012-For-Microsoft-Windows-XP-Vista-7-/110922521399?pt=UK_Computing_Software_Software_SR&hash=item19d37f5b37#ht_8329wt_1026
>>>
>> This has come up before...there is no issue with selling ANY copy of
>> OpenOffice (old or new) as long as the vendor complies with licensing or
>> trademark requirements.
>>
>> This bit at the bottom --
>>
>> *Items contained on this CD are under the terms of the GNU License, the
>> GNU
>> Lesser General Public Licences (LPGL) or the Mozilla Public Licence*
>>
>> well let's hope it's right.
>>
>> see also, our local Distribution FAQ--
>>
>> http://www.openoffice.org/distribution/
>>
>
Re: OO Sold on eBay
Posted by Max Merbald <ma...@gmx.de>.
Hi,
I'd say it's not very fair because probably not everyone knows OOO is
available for free. It's kind of weird that someone is trying to make
money with something which is available for free.
Max
Am 12.08.2012 18:19, schrieb Kay Schenk:
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:48 AM, dan roch <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> FYI
>>
>> I don't know if this goes agaist OO rules but this user on eBay is selling
>> copies of OO.
>>
>>
>> ebay user: allsorts-est-2011
>>
>> auction
>>
>>
>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Office-for-Home-and-Student-2007-2010-2012-For-Microsoft-Windows-XP-Vista-7-/110922521399?pt=UK_Computing_Software_Software_SR&hash=item19d37f5b37#ht_8329wt_1026
>>
> This has come up before...there is no issue with selling ANY copy of
> OpenOffice (old or new) as long as the vendor complies with licensing or
> trademark requirements.
>
> This bit at the bottom --
>
> *Items contained on this CD are under the terms of the GNU License, the GNU
> Lesser General Public Licences (LPGL) or the Mozilla Public Licence*
>
> well let's hope it's right.
>
> see also, our local Distribution FAQ--
>
> http://www.openoffice.org/distribution/
>
Re: OO Sold on eBay
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:48 AM, dan roch <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> FYI
>
> I don't know if this goes agaist OO rules but this user on eBay is selling
> copies of OO.
>
>
> ebay user: allsorts-est-2011
>
> auction
>
>
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Office-for-Home-and-Student-2007-2010-2012-For-Microsoft-Windows-XP-Vista-7-/110922521399?pt=UK_Computing_Software_Software_SR&hash=item19d37f5b37#ht_8329wt_1026
>
This has come up before...there is no issue with selling ANY copy of
OpenOffice (old or new) as long as the vendor complies with licensing or
trademark requirements.
This bit at the bottom --
*Items contained on this CD are under the terms of the GNU License, the GNU
Lesser General Public Licences (LPGL) or the Mozilla Public Licence*
well let's hope it's right.
see also, our local Distribution FAQ--
http://www.openoffice.org/distribution/
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
"Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think."
--
Niels Bohr
Re: OO Sold on eBay
Posted by Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 9:20 AM, Fernando Cassia <fc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 9:48 AM, dan roch <da...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > FYI
> >
> > I don't know if this goes agaist OO rules but this user on eBay is
> selling
> > copies of OO.
> >
>
> There is no rule against selling open source software.
>
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
>
> FC
> --
> During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary
> act
> Durante épocas de Engaño Universal, decir la verdad se convierte en un Acto
> Revolucionario
> - George Orwell
>
The oddity is that they are not using the proper versioning so the software
may just be playing off the name "OpenOffice.org"
Wolf
--
This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com
Open-Source Software in Libraries - http://FOSS4Lib.org
Advancing Libraries Together - http://LYRASIS.org
Apache Open Office Developer wolfhalton@apache.org
Re: OO Sold on eBay
Posted by Fernando Cassia <fc...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 9:48 AM, dan roch <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> FYI
>
> I don't know if this goes agaist OO rules but this user on eBay is selling
> copies of OO.
>
There is no rule against selling open source software.
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
FC
--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary
act
Durante épocas de Engaño Universal, decir la verdad se convierte en un Acto
Revolucionario
- George Orwell