RE: Tapestry rant and suggestions

[John Meredith <ps...@t-online.de>]

[Taking this to dev, as suggested by Howard - full post included for
completeness sake]

> > > Ooh yeah baby, great subject line, that's the way to get some help.
> > 
> > I'm sorry Howard, but this particular comment annoys the hell 
> > out of me.
> 
> If it shocks people into searching from problems a little harder, then good. Tapestry is my *third*
> job, after full-time at WebCT and writing the book.

> In other forums, when *I* need help, I don't start with "I'm a newbie, but this is broken." I start
> with, "I'm having a problem and seem to be missing something."

Both of those are still asking for help though - and not from you
personally. If you're marketing Tapestry to those familiar with other
web frameworks, then you can't just assume they are going to approach
Tapestry as you would.

> > It seems from this above comment that some shock element (ie. 
> > indicating that Tapestry fails in some aspect) is required to 
> > get an answer from the people who can navigate Tapestry with 
> > their eyes closed ie. the developers.
> 
> Dan Wells would have gotten the copylefted Tapestry Rant ... except he followed up with a pretty
> detailed explanation of his situtation.

No argument from me there.

I agree, the more information is posted the easier it is to answer.

Maybe there should be some posting guidelines or something?

> > I've noticed with increasing regularity, that questions 
> > posted to this list either go unanswered or the answers are 
> > minimal at best, and I don't just mean my questions.
> 
> A certain number of questions do go unanswered, such as "I'm new to this, but how do I something
> unnecessarily complex?".

Again, you are what you eat. If you've been eating PHP, JSP, or
god-knows how many frameworks are out there for a while, then you're
thinking is going to be a result of eating PHP, JSP etc. Some things are
*not* intuitive with Tapestry when coming from another background -
trust me :-)

I would be very surprised if anyone giving Tapestry a try had
*absolutely* no web application development background at all.

If something is unnecessarily complex, a quick pointer by those more
experienced in Tapestry as to why is more helpful than to be ignored.

> In fact, I'm always pleased by the number of questions that do get answered, and not by me.

So am I - very helpful :-)

My gripe is not that others answer questions (heck, even I have a shot
if I think I know the answer), but that some questions, which on the
face of it seem like good/interesting questions/problem descriptions,
never receive an answer ... and I'm not talking about holding someone's
hand throughout a project either - people can pay for that if that's
what they need.

> > On more than one occasion, I've had people ask me privately 
> > if I'd received an answer or was able solve a particular 
> > problem I'd posted to this list. If I have an answer, I'm 
> > more than happy to help but unfortunately this is not always the case.
> > 
> > This atmosphere is not particularly conducive to converting 
> > people from other "web-app-persuasions".
> > 
> > Please don't get me wrong. I love using Tapestry, and I won't 
> > stop tinkering around with it - it been invaluable to me 
> > personally, in that using it has taught me many things about 
> > Java you just don't find in reference books. I also 
> > appreciate the huge amount of of time, effort and personal 
> > sacrifices that have gone into bringing Tapestry to where it is today.
> > 
> > Allow me to quote something from the webpage: "The many new 
> > features of release 3.0 mean that Tapestry is not only the 
> > most powerful web application framework available, it is also 
> > the fastest and easiest to adopt, regardless of whether your 
> > background is Java, Perl, XML or PHP!"
> > 
> > Whilst I'm aware that statement is optimistic at best (with 
> > regards to the background bit - the rest I generally agree 
> > with), it's still tries to make the point that any webapp 
> > development background is welcome, which I'm also assuming 
> > means being able to at least get a semblance of an answer - 
> > even if it be a "RTFM you moron" (which, by the way, is much 
> > better than no answer at all).
> 
> I'll be glad to send people to the manual, as soon as I've written it.  All my writing energies have
> gone into the book.
> Others have stepped in to help answer the flow of questions, but nobody else has yet done any work
> on documentation (not since
> Malcom and Neil did the component reference --- and David Solis has done some additional work there
> as well, count to think of it).

As mentioned below, I'm more than happy to contribute if I can.

> > Before a question gets answered, does one have to demonstrate 
> > that one can "code with the best of them" or is there some 
> > peculiar way a post a question that has eluded myself and 
> > numerous others?
> > 
> > If this is a private party, please let me and others know.
> 
> Not in the least; in fact, what pleases me most are people just *talking* about the apps they've
> created; mostly I see an endless stream of questions.

... the endless stream of questions is due to the lack of docs/faqs etc.
Whilst you can't avoid the questions altogether, you can minimise them
considerably.

> > 2. Suggestions (I realise some of these deficiencies are well 
> > known, I only list them here for completeness). I base these 
> > suggestions on a completely unscientific browse through 
> > questions/discussions on this list.
> > 
> > - Documentation
> >   a) Full examples for the component reference guide
> >   b) Section/tutorial dedicated to HTML forms with particular 
> > emphasis on component interaction ie. when to use a Foreach 
> > or ListEdit, how to customise your ValidationDelegate etc.
> >   c) Section/tutorial dedicated to the Table family of components.
> >   d) The FAQ needs to be expanded considerably - possibly 
> > integrated into the Wiki.
> >   e) Complete overhaul of the Wiki with regards to 
> > organisation - even better a Tapestry based Wiki. Yes, I 
> > realise the whole premise behind a Wiki allows me to do this 
> > myself - but some sort of minimal organisation is required 
> > outside of the Wiki before that can happen.
> 
> Tapestry has basically moved with me as I've switched from job to job; that means Tapestry doesn't
> have a "corporate sponsor", and Apache doesn't run live web apps at apache.org.
> 
> We're still stuck with the slow, awkward, unreliable, limited PHP Wiki at sf.net.
>
> Perhaps once I launch my consulting career, I can work out a permanent home for a live Tapestry home
> that could run live demos, live FAQ, Wiki in Tapestry (or Moin Moin, or SnipSnap), a component
> exchange, and so forth.

Again, I'd be happy to pitch in here as well. I'm a sys-admin (*nix only
though :-) by trade who's fallen into webapp development, must be
something for me to do.

I can arrange some server space (in Germany) as well if that's what's
required to get the ball rolling.

> > - Releases
> >   a) Announce releases to this list as well (I don't remember 
> > seeing one for beta-2 here, although it was announced on the 
> > jakarta site)
> 
> That's an ommision if it's true.
> 
> >   b) Some sort of roadmap with a list of proposed changes in 
> > future releases, and the implications (positive/negative) of 
> > these changes to developing with Tapestry e.g. What benefits 
> > will integrating Hivemind into Tapestry (which I believe is 
> > happening in 3.1) actually provide?
> 
> A discussion for the dev list.
> 
> > 
> > - The user list (I can't comment on the dev list - out of my league)
> >   a) Getting an answer to a question, even if it is a simple 
> > "RTFM you idiot" (possibly with a link to the page in 
> > question) if not considered an affront.
> > 
> > I do realise that the time people have available is limited, 
> > but most people can spare a little time - and a lot of people 
> > with a little time would in my opinion make a huge 
> > difference. I imagine there are plenty of people willing to 
> > invest a few minutes to do something.
> > 
> > For those unaware of Hibernate, can I direct you to 
> > http://hibernate.bluemars.net/ for a very good example of how a project (commercial or otherwise)
> > can be presented - it does have it's drawbacks, but on the whole it is a well designed resource for
> > anyone new to or already familiar with Hibernate (BTW, Hibernate and Tapestry work incredibly well
> > together for anyone interested in an ORM solution for their Tapestry app).
> 
> I rememeber Hibernate from before it had all of that; I wasn't an active user, so I don't know how
> Gavin and co. dealt with questions back then, but what they have now is what they evolved to.

Be that as it may, it works and I don't think it excludes Tapestry from
following the same path. It can only benefit everyone: newbie, experts
and anyone in between.

> Anyway, rather than throw some suggestions in the air and then hide whilst hoping that someone else
> do them, I'm more than willing to offer any assistance I can, be it organisational, contributions of
> some sort, or even just proof reading a FAQ, Tutorial etc.

My little rant was not meant as a personal attack at all, but rather
what I perceive to be a very minor elitist attitude, that seems to come
across in some of the posts.

[Can I ruffle some feathers now? :-)]

  - John

-- 
John Meredith <ps...@t-online.de>