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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Mike Engelhart <me...@earthtrip.com> on 2000/04/09 18:03:46 UTC
Cocoon 2 suggestions
OK - although I haven't looked at the C2 CVS closely, here are 2 things that
I think need to be addressed in Cocoon 2.
1) XSP error handling.
XSP needs to be able to be able to handle unexpected errors by returning
either a dynamic error page or rerouting to another predefined xml page that
is maybe set in Cocoon.properties or somewhere in the xsp taglib itself.
It's very painful while testing to see errors on populateDocument() being
spit out without being handled. Obviously my web site will not have any
errors EVER but for those poor souls that have bugs in their code, I think
this would be very useful :-)
2) Internationaliztion
I've ranted about this several times on this list but haven't gotten any
response so I'll rant again....Internationalization using ResourceBundle's
with Cocoon/XSLT sucks! With XSP, you can't access ResourceBundle classes
for some unknown reason. I've posted this to cocoon-dev about 5 times and
haven't gotten any response as to why you can't access ResourceBundle
classes in the same classpath. Something must be going on behind the scenes
with ResourceBundle's and the classloader that I don't understand. Also, I
don't think XSP is where the language lookup's necessarily should take place
(although I wouldn't mind it happening right now). Thoughts on this???
As for Xalan, while I can write an extension to lookup strings in
ResourceBundle's it only works with Xalan and it only works with Java right
now so it's a bit limiting and I'm not sure of any performance penalties for
doing this in-process with the transformation.
I don't know about anyone else but the apparent convergence on English as
the language of the web/future scares the crap out of me....
Thanks,
Mike
Re: Cocoon 2 suggestions
Posted by "Pier P. Fumagalli" <pi...@apache.org>.
Mike Engelhart wrote:
>
> 1) XSP error handling.
It's not a question of error handling only for XSP... I believe that
better error handling should be put throughout the code...
I'm trying to come up with a set of exceptions and rules on how to
handle them, so that we could get better "feelings" on what happens when
something goes wrong...
On a sidenote... When an exception occours in an XSP, it's stack trace
will reflect the line number of where the exception happened AFTER the
code has been translated from XML to JAVA... Do someone have any idea on
how we can fix that?
> 2) Internationaliztion
Internationalization is not something that Cocoon can do something
about. Internally (at least in the 2.0 source tree) nothing is stored as
byte [], so, there should not be any issue in dealing with weird
charsets (as long as the parsers and the serializers support them!)
> I've ranted about this several times on this list but haven't gotten any
> response so I'll rant again....Internationalization using ResourceBundle's
> with Cocoon/XSLT sucks! With XSP, you can't access ResourceBundle classes
> for some unknown reason. [...]
ResourceBoundle like
this.getClass().getClassLoader().getResourceAsStream("..."); ????????
Pier
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
pier: stable structure erected over water to allow docking of seacraft
<ma...@betaversion.org> <http://www.betaversion.org/~pier/>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Cocoon 2 suggestions
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> > > 2) Internationaliztion
> > It's just a matter of time, but as television linguistically unified
> > nations in the last 50 years much more than schools or governments, the
> > internet will do it for the world.
> >
> > Massive standardization and lost of enriching differences? rather the
> > opposite: more enriching communication opportunities for everyone.
> >
> > Sorry if I divagated, anyway, I agree: as long as we don't have a single
> > language, makes sense to have i18n resource boundles.
>
> It will take more than another generation for a single language to develop, but
> it is inevitable that this will happen over time. The 'distance' factor is the
> language developer, and the abscense of it will unify communications.
>
> The funny part is, that the 'winners' in this very fundamental change will be,
> beside the countries already speaking that language or something close to it,
> small countries and third-world countries, especially in Asia, where adoption and
> fluency in English is already good. Countries like Scandinavia, Holland and
> East-Europe will preceed the larger countries like Germany, France and Italy,
> since the markets there 'demand' regional content at the moment, and there is a
> critical mass for providing information (although partial) to those markets. At
> the end, these countries will actually be suffering, and they never realized why
> or how. And this will be the case, no matter what some extraordinary Italians on
> this list thinks.
>
> However, unless we want to wait until this unified world comes about, Cocoon
> needs to seriously address internationalisation. At the moment, this makes a
> difference between the tools available, and being XML based should give Cocoon a
> head start.
I totally share your vision.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Missed us in Orlando? Make it up with ApacheCON Europe in London!
------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------
Re: Cocoon 2 suggestions
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@localbar.com>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> > 2) Internationaliztion
> It's just a matter of time, but as television linguistically unified
> nations in the last 50 years much more than schools or governments, the
> internet will do it for the world.
>
> Massive standardization and lost of enriching differences? rather the
> opposite: more enriching communication opportunities for everyone.
>
> Sorry if I divagated, anyway, I agree: as long as we don't have a single
> language, makes sense to have i18n resource boundles.
It will take more than another generation for a single language to develop, but
it is inevitable that this will happen over time. The 'distance' factor is the
language developer, and the abscense of it will unify communications.
The funny part is, that the 'winners' in this very fundamental change will be,
beside the countries already speaking that language or something close to it,
small countries and third-world countries, especially in Asia, where adoption and
fluency in English is already good. Countries like Scandinavia, Holland and
East-Europe will preceed the larger countries like Germany, France and Italy,
since the markets there 'demand' regional content at the moment, and there is a
critical mass for providing information (although partial) to those markets. At
the end, these countries will actually be suffering, and they never realized why
or how. And this will be the case, no matter what some extraordinary Italians on
this list thinks.
However, unless we want to wait until this unified world comes about, Cocoon
needs to seriously address internationalisation. At the moment, this makes a
difference between the tools available, and being XML based should give Cocoon a
head start.
Niclas
Re: Cocoon 2 suggestions
Posted by Jeremy Quinn <je...@media.demon.co.uk>.
On 10/4/00 at 2:00 pm, mengelhart@earthtrip.com (Mike Engelhart) wrote:
>Jeremy Quinn wrote:
>
>> I don't exactly know what ResourceBundles are :) but a generic way of having
>> Cocoon automatically select content by language preference would IMHO be a
>> great advantage.
>>
>> regards Jeremy
>>
>You can find out all about them in the JDK javadoc's under
>java.util.ResourceBundle
>java.util.PropertyResourceBundle
Thanks Mike.
I read them last night, now I definately know we want them :)
Would it make sense for the SiteMap to optionally use Resource Bundles for picking up alternative languages? ie. place a reference to a resource bundle in the sitemap, the resource bundle could hold paths to the different language XML Files?
Someone was recently asking how to do this I think.
regards Jeremy
____________________________________________________________________
Jeremy Quinn media.demon
webSpace Design
<ma...@media.demon.co.uk> <http://www.media.demon.co.uk>
<phone:+44.[0].207.737.6831> <pa...@sms.genie.co.uk>
Re: Cocoon 2 suggestions
Posted by Mike Engelhart <me...@earthtrip.com>.
Jeremy Quinn wrote:
> I don't exactly know what ResourceBundles are :) but a generic way of having
> Cocoon automatically select content by language preference would IMHO be a
> great advantage.
>
> regards Jeremy
>
You can find out all about them in the JDK javadoc's under
java.util.ResourceBundle
java.util.PropertyResourceBundle
Mike
Re: Cocoon 2 suggestions
Posted by Jeremy Quinn <je...@media.demon.co.uk>.
On 10/4/00 at 10:40 am, stefano@apache.org (Stefano Mazzocchi) wrote:
>> 2) Internationaliztion
[...]
>> Internationalization using ResourceBundle's
>> with Cocoon/XSLT sucks!
[...]
>
>Hmmmm, never thought about this, anyone else?
Internationaliztion has been a major issue on big projects I've worked on in the past.
I don't exactly know what ResourceBundles are :) but a generic way of having Cocoon automatically select content by language preference would IMHO be a great advantage.
regards Jeremy
____________________________________________________________________
Jeremy Quinn media.demon
webSpace Design
<ma...@media.demon.co.uk> <http://www.media.demon.co.uk>
<phone:+44.[0].207.737.6831> <pa...@sms.genie.co.uk>
Re: Cocoon 2 suggestions
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Mike Engelhart wrote:
>
> OK - although I haven't looked at the C2 CVS closely, here are 2 things that
> I think need to be addressed in Cocoon 2.
>
> 1) XSP error handling.
> XSP needs to be able to be able to handle unexpected errors by returning
> either a dynamic error page or rerouting to another predefined xml page that
> is maybe set in Cocoon.properties or somewhere in the xsp taglib itself.
> It's very painful while testing to see errors on populateDocument() being
> spit out without being handled. Obviously my web site will not have any
> errors EVER but for those poor souls that have bugs in their code, I think
> this would be very useful :-)
totally +1
> 2) Internationaliztion
> I've ranted about this several times on this list but haven't gotten any
> response so I'll rant again....Internationalization using ResourceBundle's
> with Cocoon/XSLT sucks! With XSP, you can't access ResourceBundle classes
> for some unknown reason. I've posted this to cocoon-dev about 5 times and
> haven't gotten any response as to why you can't access ResourceBundle
> classes in the same classpath. Something must be going on behind the scenes
> with ResourceBundle's and the classloader that I don't understand. Also, I
> don't think XSP is where the language lookup's necessarily should take place
> (although I wouldn't mind it happening right now). Thoughts on this???
Hmmmm, never thought about this, anyone else?
> As for Xalan, while I can write an extension to lookup strings in
> ResourceBundle's it only works with Xalan and it only works with Java right
> now so it's a bit limiting and I'm not sure of any performance penalties for
> doing this in-process with the transformation.
> I don't know about anyone else but the apparent convergence on English as
> the language of the web/future scares the crap out of me....
We are not converging to English. We are converging to a english-based
language that includes words and expression from every other language
glued by a simplified grammer and verbal structure.
I don't cry because nobody speaks latin anymore. I wouldn't if italian
became a dead language.
In fact, I'm sure most of the native american languages were rich of
very interesting linguistic concepts... but the problem is not they are
rarely spoken, the problem is they left very little trace.
Anyway, I don't understand why people is so afraid of the anti-babel....
In fact, languages developped because of distances. Remove distances out
of the equation, why would you need more than one linguistic contract
between humans if it included everything needed?
It's just a matter of time, but as television linguistically unified
nations in the last 50 years much more than schools or governments, the
internet will do it for the world.
Massive standardization and lost of enriching differences? rather the
opposite: more enriching communication opportunities for everyone.
Sorry if I divagated, anyway, I agree: as long as we don't have a single
language, makes sense to have i18n resource boundles.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Missed us in Orlando? Make it up with ApacheCON Europe in London!
------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------
Re: Cocoon 2 suggestions(off topic -> language evolution)
Posted by "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@relativity.yi.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
<snip>
> But, please, let's remove this stereotype that a single world-wide
> language is a bad thing, ok? As long as it's open and not imposed, I
> can't see why it would be a bad thing to have.
>
> (of course, nothing stops you from knowing more than one language, but
> this shouldn't be necessary)
>
> I'd be happy to see the internet and freedom of speech succeed where
> governments and wars couldn't in the whole history of mankind. It would
> prove something, wouldn't it? :)
+1. Can we integrate this into Cocoon 2.0 before JavaOne? That would
really be cool :)
I do agree with you. Some people don't. IE the French government.
The interesting part about language difference is how easy it is to make
another Human your enemy. Imagine a WW2 where everyone spoke the same
language. It makes it a lot harder to shot someone when they are saying
"Please! I have 2 children!" instead of ";asjkddii lkjasodi, adskup
kupi kie".!!!
--
Kevin A Burton (burton@apache.org)
http://relativity.yi.org
Message to SUN: "Please Open Source Java!"
"For evil to win is for good men to do nothing."
Re: Cocoon 2 suggestions
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Mike Engelhart wrote:
>
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> > Mike Engelhart wrote:
> >>
> >> Kevin A. Burton wrote:
> >>
> >>> It is eventually inevitable that everyone will speak the same language.
> >>> Although it won't may still be called English the influence from other
> >>> language will modify and introduce newer words.
> >> Sadly this is mostly true
> >>
> >>> It does scare me that cultural diversity will fade but you can get in
> >>> the path of the future or you will get run over :(
> >> I don't really want to get run over, but as I don't want to be known as
> >> someone who was a member of a movement (i.e., programming geeks) who helped
> >> give the death blow to cultural diversity on Earth, I'd love to be able to
> >> access ResourceBundle's from my XSP pages. :-)
> >
> > The roman empire _forced_ the use of the latin language (which is can be
> > considered the technical-english of today moved back 2000 years ago)
> > thru-out all their empire. Which ranged from the scottish border to
> > today's Israel.
> >
> > There was a jewish man called "Jesus Nazarenus" that was born at the
> > time where the most common and used language was latin... was he
> > influenced by this "lack of cultural diversity imposed by a common
> > language"?
> >
> > Or look at ancient greece, where different state-cities fought battles
> > but shared a common language and became the craddle of occidental
> > sciences.
> What you're missing here is that when hellenism (the mono-culture being
> pushed around the time of Jesus) was being forced upon society, more than
> 90% of the people were uneducated and never would have entered a city ( or
> to reference our current world, had access to a DSL line and computer -that
> is even if they have electricity) so basically missed out on all the
> advantages that hellenism was supposed to bring about! So in effect Greek
> was the language of the educated urban elite. Not very enlightening...
What you are missing here is graduality. True, hellenism didn't say
anything about democracy, or freedom of speech, or human rights... but
it went way ahead of other civilizations that even kept the technology
of writing in the hands of the few king couselors (egypt, for example).
So, you're totally right in saying that poor africans don't benefit from
an open and free internet if they cannot survive starvation or even get
their hands on a computer... but there is a difference if a 25-year old
kid is able to influence thousands of people and even technology
standards with his ideas about software.
It will always be a gradual process, but we must lower those energy
barriers... one of which is this babel of natural languages.
> > I see that programming geeks will _free_ this world from a babel of
> > languages that _imposes_ diversity, reduces communication, and increases
> > differences between rich and poor countries. Of course, geeks, rather
> > than soldiers, appreaciate cultular differences and will try to
> > "preserve" them from being forgotten, like monks did for ancient
> > thinkers. such as
> I'd say this is optimistic at best. I'm not sure of the analogy between
> soldiers and geeks so I'll just skip that one?? I think geeks as a
> stereotype are not some enlightened version of human being. I've met plenty
> of geeks who are complete social morons with little appreciation for
> anything other than their new Athlon linux box. Just because they know how
> to write software or build silicon wafers I wouldn't place them into the
> category of cultural saviors.
It depends on the geeks you know. :)
> > But, please, let's remove this stereotype that a single world-wide
> > language is a bad thing, ok? As long as it's open and not imposed, I
> > can't see why it would be a bad thing to have.
> How can it not be imposed?? Just the fact that my site can decide to only
> display it's pages in English is imposing limitations on who I allow to view
> my information. That's rather imposing wouldn't you say? Of course it's
> only me, but what about the 10 million other web developers who are doing
> the same thing.
Imposition is lack of freedom. A site that expresses information in a
single language is not imposing anything, it's "exposing" itself. Living
in a country where almost nobody knows english well enough to be able to
browse an english web site, I tell you that italians browse 90% italian
pages. Just like 100% movies are dubbed.
But this is just market: if you don't dub a movie, nobody is going to
watch it. Same thing with a site.
> > I'd be happy to see the internet and freedom of speech succeed where
> > governments and wars couldn't in the whole history of mankind. It would
> > prove something, wouldn't it? :)
> It may well do that. I hope you're right and I'm wrong. :-)
> If anything considering the ease of use of things like ResourceBundles from
> the Java programming world, the monks should start offering their services
> as web page translators so that all sites could have access to multi-lingual
> translated pages. It would be a lot cheaper than using all their energies
> in trying to put whole cultures into storage... :-)
Great point :)
But you fail to understand a single thing: having a single language is
much more scalable :)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Missed us in Orlando? Make it up with ApacheCON Europe in London!
------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------
Re: Cocoon 2 suggestions
Posted by Mike Engelhart <me...@earthtrip.com>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Mike Engelhart wrote:
>>
>> Kevin A. Burton wrote:
>>
>>> It is eventually inevitable that everyone will speak the same language.
>>> Although it won't may still be called English the influence from other
>>> language will modify and introduce newer words.
>> Sadly this is mostly true
>>
>>> It does scare me that cultural diversity will fade but you can get in
>>> the path of the future or you will get run over :(
>> I don't really want to get run over, but as I don't want to be known as
>> someone who was a member of a movement (i.e., programming geeks) who helped
>> give the death blow to cultural diversity on Earth, I'd love to be able to
>> access ResourceBundle's from my XSP pages. :-)
>
> The roman empire _forced_ the use of the latin language (which is can be
> considered the technical-english of today moved back 2000 years ago)
> thru-out all their empire. Which ranged from the scottish border to
> today's Israel.
>
> There was a jewish man called "Jesus Nazarenus" that was born at the
> time where the most common and used language was latin... was he
> influenced by this "lack of cultural diversity imposed by a common
> language"?
>
> Or look at ancient greece, where different state-cities fought battles
> but shared a common language and became the craddle of occidental
> sciences.
What you're missing here is that when hellenism (the mono-culture being
pushed around the time of Jesus) was being forced upon society, more than
90% of the people were uneducated and never would have entered a city ( or
to reference our current world, had access to a DSL line and computer -that
is even if they have electricity) so basically missed out on all the
advantages that hellenism was supposed to bring about! So in effect Greek
was the language of the educated urban elite. Not very enlightening...
> I see that programming geeks will _free_ this world from a babel of
> languages that _imposes_ diversity, reduces communication, and increases
> differences between rich and poor countries. Of course, geeks, rather
> than soldiers, appreaciate cultular differences and will try to
> "preserve" them from being forgotten, like monks did for ancient
> thinkers. such as
I'd say this is optimistic at best. I'm not sure of the analogy between
soldiers and geeks so I'll just skip that one?? I think geeks as a
stereotype are not some enlightened version of human being. I've met plenty
of geeks who are complete social morons with little appreciation for
anything other than their new Athlon linux box. Just because they know how
to write software or build silicon wafers I wouldn't place them into the
category of cultural saviors.
> But, please, let's remove this stereotype that a single world-wide
> language is a bad thing, ok? As long as it's open and not imposed, I
> can't see why it would be a bad thing to have.
How can it not be imposed?? Just the fact that my site can decide to only
display it's pages in English is imposing limitations on who I allow to view
my information. That's rather imposing wouldn't you say? Of course it's
only me, but what about the 10 million other web developers who are doing
the same thing.
> (of course, nothing stops you from knowing more than one language, but
> this shouldn't be necessary)
My thoughts exactly.. Just display your site in many languages. :-)
> I'd be happy to see the internet and freedom of speech succeed where
> governments and wars couldn't in the whole history of mankind. It would
> prove something, wouldn't it? :)
It may well do that. I hope you're right and I'm wrong. :-)
If anything considering the ease of use of things like ResourceBundles from
the Java programming world, the monks should start offering their services
as web page translators so that all sites could have access to multi-lingual
translated pages. It would be a lot cheaper than using all their energies
in trying to put whole cultures into storage... :-)
Mike
Re: Cocoon 2 suggestions
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Mike Engelhart wrote:
>
> Kevin A. Burton wrote:
>
> > It is eventually inevitable that everyone will speak the same language.
> > Although it won't may still be called English the influence from other
> > language will modify and introduce newer words.
> Sadly this is mostly true
>
> > It does scare me that cultural diversity will fade but you can get in
> > the path of the future or you will get run over :(
> I don't really want to get run over, but as I don't want to be known as
> someone who was a member of a movement (i.e., programming geeks) who helped
> give the death blow to cultural diversity on Earth, I'd love to be able to
> access ResourceBundle's from my XSP pages. :-)
The roman empire _forced_ the use of the latin language (which is can be
considered the technical-english of today moved back 2000 years ago)
thru-out all their empire. Which ranged from the scottish border to
today's Israel.
There was a jewish man called "Jesus Nazarenus" that was born at the
time where the most common and used language was latin... was he
influenced by this "lack of cultural diversity imposed by a common
language"?
Or look at ancient greece, where different state-cities fought battles
but shared a common language and became the craddle of occidental
sciences.
I see that programming geeks will _free_ this world from a babel of
languages that _imposes_ diversity, reduces communication, and increases
differences between rich and poor countries. Of course, geeks, rather
than soldiers, appreaciate cultular differences and will try to
"preserve" them from being forgotten, like monks did for ancient
thinkers.
But, please, let's remove this stereotype that a single world-wide
language is a bad thing, ok? As long as it's open and not imposed, I
can't see why it would be a bad thing to have.
(of course, nothing stops you from knowing more than one language, but
this shouldn't be necessary)
I'd be happy to see the internet and freedom of speech succeed where
governments and wars couldn't in the whole history of mankind. It would
prove something, wouldn't it? :)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Missed us in Orlando? Make it up with ApacheCON Europe in London!
------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------
Re: Cocoon 2 suggestions
Posted by Mike Engelhart <me...@earthtrip.com>.
Kevin A. Burton wrote:
> It is eventually inevitable that everyone will speak the same language.
> Although it won't may still be called English the influence from other
> language will modify and introduce newer words.
Sadly this is mostly true
> It does scare me that cultural diversity will fade but you can get in
> the path of the future or you will get run over :(
I don't really want to get run over, but as I don't want to be known as
someone who was a member of a movement (i.e., programming geeks) who helped
give the death blow to cultural diversity on Earth, I'd love to be able to
access ResourceBundle's from my XSP pages. :-)
Mike
Re: Cocoon 2 suggestions
Posted by "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@relativity.yi.org>.
Gerard van Enk wrote:
<snip>
> > doing this in-process with the transformation.
> > I don't know about anyone else but the apparent convergence on English as
> > the language of the web/future scares the crap out of me....
>
> This is very import....
> but I thought with all the Italians in this list this would be a big issue,
> or maybe they would like to see the whole world speaking Italian??? ;-)
>
> Gerard
It is eventually inevitable that everyone will speak the same language.
Although it won't may still be called English the influence from other
language will modify and introduce newer words.
It does scare me that cultural diversity will fade but you can get in
the path of the future or you will get run over :(
Kevin
--
Kevin A Burton (burton@apache.org)
http://relativity.yi.org
Message to SUN: "Please Open Source Java!"
"For evil to win is for good men to do nothing."
Open Source -> Join the conspiracy!
RE: Cocoon 2 suggestions
Posted by Gerard van Enk <ge...@eo.nl>.
> OK - although I haven't looked at the C2 CVS closely, here are 2
> things that
> I think need to be addressed in Cocoon 2.
<snip>
> 2) Internationaliztion
> I've ranted about this several times on this list but haven't
> gotten any
> response so I'll rant again....Internationalization using ResourceBundle's
> with Cocoon/XSLT sucks! With XSP, you can't access ResourceBundle classes
> for some unknown reason. I've posted this to cocoon-dev about 5 times and
> haven't gotten any response as to why you can't access ResourceBundle
> classes in the same classpath. Something must be going on behind
> the scenes
> with ResourceBundle's and the classloader that I don't
> understand. Also, I
> don't think XSP is where the language lookup's necessarily should
> take place
> (although I wouldn't mind it happening right now). Thoughts on this???
> As for Xalan, while I can write an extension to lookup strings in
> ResourceBundle's it only works with Xalan and it only works with
> Java right
> now so it's a bit limiting and I'm not sure of any performance
> penalties for
> doing this in-process with the transformation.
> I don't know about anyone else but the apparent convergence on English as
> the language of the web/future scares the crap out of me....
This is very import....
but I thought with all the Italians in this list this would be a big issue,
or maybe they would like to see the whole world speaking Italian??? ;-)
Gerard