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Posted to users@tomcat.apache.org by Mike DiChiappari <md...@domanisoft.com> on 2002/12/10 03:43:03 UTC
Re: I don¥t understand the objective of this open list !
Mark,
Thank you for your candid response. I believe I understand the point
of Jakarta now.
>We're happy not to have you use the software. If you
>read the documentation for other application servers,
>you'll quickly find that there is an equal amount of
>'geek' speak.
Since you say "we're" I assume you have had your hand in tomcat
development. If this is so, then I believe it is true that in order
to be able to successfully use tomcat, one must be involved in it. I
am glad that is not true about other things in life. For example, I
can drive a car, but can't (and have no desire to) build or fix one.
>
>Sad to say, but at some point you need to understand
>the technology and know what you are doing in order to
>accomplish a reasonably complex configuration.
I understand J2EE methodology, design standards, how to design,
build, develop and code in Java. I can figure out how to setup
Weblogic, iPlanet, and JRun. I guess I still am not savy enough to
use tomcat.
>
>Currently, I run Tomcat 4.12 and Apache 2.043 on a
>Windows/2000 Pro development box with multiple virtual
>hosts.
That's one of you (and I'm assuming you're a developer of tomcat)./
>
>Complaining about what isn't is in general not in
>anyone's best interest. Rather than complain, do. If
>you don't wish to do, then don't complain.
>
>I understand it if your management has asked you to
>perform some application build on Tomcat, and your
>experience has only been with vendor hand-holding.
>It's time to start learning the basics, and not
>vendor-speak.
>
>This I think is the major cause of IT issues today.
>People implement vendor solutions without
>understanding the underlying technology used to meet
>the business requirements. This leads to people being
>familiar with vendor implementations, and not the
>underlying standards.
>
>What happens when a vendor goes out of business? What
>happens when the vendor decides not to support your
>favorite feature? What happens when the vendor
>decides not to implement your desired feature.
>
>Sure they may lose your business, but it's hardly the
>only business that they have. However, what you've
>lost is all the investment in vendor technology, since
>you've not invested in the fundamentals underlying
>that technology.
>
>In short, you either change your business practices to
>suit the technology that past [bad] decisions have
>constrained you to, or you throw away a lot of
>investment.
First of all, this thread was started by someone who could get no
support and was complaining. I'll leave it up to you to go through
the mail archive to find the original poster (how do you like being
referred to the mail archives). At least with a vendor I have
someone to yell at. And I've seen that technique work.
Secondly, I am not so full of myself to take responsibility for an
entire app server. Yes, it is worth it to pay a few bucks to a
company - just for the accountability. When your medical software
can not meet FDA guidelines or you get sued because of a bug in your
app server - good luck. I feel like I can depend on my app server
vendor more than whoever is Jakarta.
Third, I'm not worried about my J2EE vendor going out of business.
The entire point of J2EE is that it is a portable platform. I've
already ported between real J2EE app servers with little trouble.
Fourth, I've had success with much of the open source and Linux
software. We run Redhat with sendmail, Apache with PHP (Horde and
IMP), and have built solutions with Xerces/Xalan. My main complaint
is with Jakarta/tomcat. It really is awful.
Even though I disagree with you on just about every point, I am going
to take your invitation. Bye bye tomcat.
Mike
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Re: I don¥t understand the objective of this open list !
Posted by micael <ca...@harbornet.com>.
I think that you may find, from my experience, that you are going to have
to pay more than a "little" for "accountability" to get what you are asking
for here. What is your problem that is Tomcat's fault anyway?
At 09:43 PM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Mark,
>
>Thank you for your candid response. I believe I understand the point of
>Jakarta now.
>
>>We're happy not to have you use the software. If you
>>read the documentation for other application servers,
>>you'll quickly find that there is an equal amount of
>>'geek' speak.
>
>Since you say "we're" I assume you have had your hand in tomcat
>development. If this is so, then I believe it is true that in order to be
>able to successfully use tomcat, one must be involved in it. I am glad
>that is not true about other things in life. For example, I can drive a
>car, but can't (and have no desire to) build or fix one.
>
>>
>>Sad to say, but at some point you need to understand
>>the technology and know what you are doing in order to
>>accomplish a reasonably complex configuration.
>
>I understand J2EE methodology, design standards, how to design, build,
>develop and code in Java. I can figure out how to setup Weblogic,
>iPlanet, and JRun. I guess I still am not savy enough to use tomcat.
>
>>
>>Currently, I run Tomcat 4.12 and Apache 2.043 on a
>>Windows/2000 Pro development box with multiple virtual
>>hosts.
>
>That's one of you (and I'm assuming you're a developer of tomcat)./
>
>>
>>Complaining about what isn't is in general not in
>>anyone's best interest. Rather than complain, do. If
>>you don't wish to do, then don't complain.
>>
>>I understand it if your management has asked you to
>>perform some application build on Tomcat, and your
>>experience has only been with vendor hand-holding.
>>It's time to start learning the basics, and not
>>vendor-speak.
>>
>>This I think is the major cause of IT issues today.
>>People implement vendor solutions without
>>understanding the underlying technology used to meet
>>the business requirements. This leads to people being
>>familiar with vendor implementations, and not the
>>underlying standards.
>>
>>What happens when a vendor goes out of business? What
>>happens when the vendor decides not to support your
>>favorite feature? What happens when the vendor
>>decides not to implement your desired feature.
>>
>>Sure they may lose your business, but it's hardly the
>>only business that they have. However, what you've
>>lost is all the investment in vendor technology, since
>>you've not invested in the fundamentals underlying
>>that technology.
>>
>>In short, you either change your business practices to
>>suit the technology that past [bad] decisions have
>>constrained you to, or you throw away a lot of
>>investment.
>
>First of all, this thread was started by someone who could get no support
>and was complaining. I'll leave it up to you to go through the mail
>archive to find the original poster (how do you like being referred to the
>mail archives). At least with a vendor I have someone to yell at. And
>I've seen that technique work.
>
>Secondly, I am not so full of myself to take responsibility for an entire
>app server. Yes, it is worth it to pay a few bucks to a company - just
>for the accountability. When your medical software can not meet FDA
>guidelines or you get sued because of a bug in your app server - good
>luck. I feel like I can depend on my app server vendor more than whoever
>is Jakarta.
>
>Third, I'm not worried about my J2EE vendor going out of business. The
>entire point of J2EE is that it is a portable platform. I've already
>ported between real J2EE app servers with little trouble.
>
>Fourth, I've had success with much of the open source and Linux
>software. We run Redhat with sendmail, Apache with PHP (Horde and IMP),
>and have built solutions with Xerces/Xalan. My main complaint is with
>Jakarta/tomcat. It really is awful.
>
>Even though I disagree with you on just about every point, I am going to
>take your invitation. Bye bye tomcat.
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
Micael
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RE:_I_donYt_understand_the_objective_of___this_open___list__!
Posted by Mark Eggers <it...@yahoo.com>.
Thank you Noel. I did use the "we" in terms of the
list. I apologize to the list, the Jakarta
development community (which does a great job), and
the Apache organization.
I'll happily use Tomcat since it works well for my
purposes.
Having written and suffered with tons of computer
documentation over the last 30 years, I find the
Tomcat documentation more "liveable" than most.
However, that's just my opinion.
/mde/
just my two cents . . . .
PS - Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding.
--- "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Mike,
>
> As far as I know (and I just looked), Mark Eggers is
> not a representative of
> any Apache project. As with many happy members of a
> Community, he feels
> like a part of it and speaks with the pronoun "we".
>
> > Thank you for your candid response. I believe I
> understand the point
> > of Jakarta now.
>
> Jakarta is not tomcat. Tomcat is a project under
> the auspices of the
> Jakarta portion of the Apache Software Foundation.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
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RE: I donYt understand the objective of this open list !
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Mike,
As far as I know (and I just looked), Mark Eggers is not a representative of
any Apache project. As with many happy members of a Community, he feels
like a part of it and speaks with the pronoun "we".
> Thank you for your candid response. I believe I understand the point
> of Jakarta now.
Jakarta is not tomcat. Tomcat is a project under the auspices of the
Jakarta portion of the Apache Software Foundation.
--- Noel
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