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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Наталья Василенко <va...@gmail.com> on 2020/10/16 07:25:45 UTC
Writer and .docx
Hello! I would like to know is there any hope that users can save documents in Writer in .docx format? In the latest version of your OpenOffice users can open documents in .docx format, but they cannot save in that format. I think it is not comfortable for many users with the fact that your product is very convenient in other options.
Could this feature be enabled in later versions of your product?
Thank you for your response.
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Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Peter Kovacs <pe...@apache.org>.
Am 16.10.20 um 09:25 schrieb Наталья Василенко:
> Hello! I would like to know is there any hope that users can save documents in Writer in .docx format? In the latest version of your OpenOffice users can open documents in .docx format, but they cannot save in that format. I think it is not comfortable for many users with the fact that your product is very convenient in other options.
> Could this feature be enabled in later versions of your product?
Yes we want to improve the capability to read and write documents
produced by Microsoft Office. However, our development community is made
up of volunteers working in their free time, next to a regular job.
We have no timeline when we will add this feature, but we know this
feature has a high demand within the user base of OpenOffice.
I do not expect that this feature will be imporved soon.
> Thank you for your response.
You are Welcome.
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Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
Hi! As Peter said, it seems unlikely this branch of OpenOffice.org will be
enhanced with the ability to write .DOCX format. However, another branch
has added this capability and offers all the other convenient options you
mention as well. You can get it from our "sister" community at
https://libreoffice.org/download
Cheers
Simon
On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 8:44 AM Наталья Василенко <va...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hello! I would like to know is there any hope that users can save
> documents in Writer in .docx format? In the latest version of your
> OpenOffice users can open documents in .docx format, but they cannot save
> in that format. I think it is not comfortable for many users with the fact
> that your product is very convenient in other options.
> Could this feature be enabled in later versions of your product?
>
> Thank you for your response.
>
Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 10:05:45 +0200
Damjan Jovanovic <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 11:50 AM Bidouille <oo...@free.fr> wrote:
>
> > > OpenOffice users can open documents in .docx format, but they cannot
> > > save in that format.
> > Well, remember that last version of Microsoft Office (since 2016) can open
> > ODT format.
> >
> >
> Unfortunately not all MS Office editions have ODT support, and many people
> I sent ODT to complained they can't open it.
Many MS Office users expect their File Associations to be set to allow them double click on a file to open it. Few of them know the longer way.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
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RE: Writer and .docx
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello,
@all:
I am happy to see that there is a current discussion about OOXML filters, because this is an important topic.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Fisher [mailto:wave@apache.org]
> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2020 4:14 AM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Writer and .docx
>
> Hi -
>
> Top posting as well. I think we should consider our goals as
> a project. If one of those goals is support for ODF as a
> theory of everything office that you can trust and know will
> remain parsable a century from now then what does that mean for OOXML?
>
> I think it means that OpenOffice could be the arbiter of
> converting OOXML into ODF. As such I’m more interested of
> using tools like POI to drive that conversion into ODF and
> leave the other direction to the commercial vendors.
>
> There is a similar but more complex semantically conversion
> of PDF into ODF.
>
> Alternatively, maybe there is a way to enhance plug-ability
> of filters with more modern methods like OSGi.
You're right in principle, but the real requirements in practice are the OOXML filters that are needed.
by the way:
The OOXML-filters there were not enforced by companies involved in LO, but the development of these filters was initially done by an initiative of a voluntary German organization (if I remember correctly: osb-alliance.de)
Jörg
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Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Pedro Lino <pe...@mailbox.org.INVALID>.
Hi Dave, all
> On 10/18/2020 3:13 AM Dave Fisher <wa...@apache.org> wrote:
> I think it means that OpenOffice could be the arbiter of converting OOXML into ODF. As such I’m more interested of using tools like POI to drive that conversion into ODF and leave the other direction to the commercial vendors.
That is exactly my point. The Import should be as perfect as possible and there should be an Export to... (like in Gimp) menu option or an Extension for those who wish to keep using MS XML (and this function should be as perfect as possible, obviously). But saving and working on a document should always use Open Document as a format.
> There is a similar but more complex semantically conversion of PDF into ODF.
That could be added to the already existing (and unfortunately unmaintained) extension ;)
Regards,
Pedro
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RE: Writer and .docx
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Damjan Jovanovic [mailto:damjan@apache.org]
> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2020 5:19 AM
> To: Apache OO
> Subject: Re: Writer and .docx
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 4:13 AM Dave Fisher <wa...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> As for ODF, LO is publishing ODF 1.3, so unless we keep up,
> we won't be
> able to read all ODF soon either, let alone a century from now.
Once again I say to ODF:
we should make our decision with the needs of the users in mind and not 'politics'.
For me this means that the preferred implementation is ISO-ODF (and not OASIS-ODF).
LO's approach of always implementing the very latest OASIS version not only ensures the rapid development of ODF in practice, but also creates more incompatibility than necessary.
In short: it does not seem to me to be reasonable to put Microsoft under pressure _if_ the interests of our users suffer as a result.
Right ... what I just said also presupposes to communicate strategically with LO (and others), but we should not shy away from this effort.
And no ... I don't think we should slow down the development of ODF. So let's put pressure on the ISO to quickly adopt existing new OASIS versions into their own ODF standard.
Jörg
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Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Damjan Jovanovic <da...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 4:13 AM Dave Fisher <wa...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi -
>
> Top posting as well. I think we should consider our goals as a project. If
> one of those goals is support for ODF as a theory of everything office that
> you can trust and know will remain parsable a century from now then what
> does that mean for OOXML?
>
>
Saving to OOXML is probably our most requested feature, so users definitely
want it. Office suites are all about being broadly general and
interoperable, there is a reason why we have the longest and most complex
clipboard handling code I've ever seen, support for many raster and vector
image formats, allow scripting and component development in many languages,
and why we import and export documents in many formats from many vendors
spanning many decades. 80% of the time users use 20% of the features, but
there are many different groups of users each using a different 20% of the
features. Many here sound like they don't need saving to OOXML, but the
user groups that do (for whatever reason) will be negatively affected if we
don't support it.
As for ODF, LO is publishing ODF 1.3, so unless we keep up, we won't be
able to read all ODF soon either, let alone a century from now.
> I think it means that OpenOffice could be the arbiter of converting OOXML
> into ODF. As such I’m more interested of using tools like POI to drive that
> conversion into ODF and leave the other direction to the commercial vendors.
>
>
We should certainly collaborate more with POI. I have OOXML documents which
open in POI but have data missing when opened in AOO. We could compare what
POI does vs what AOO does to improve our OOXML filter. There are probably
similar cases where AOO is better and we could improve POI from it.
> There is a similar but more complex semantically conversion of PDF into
> ODF.
>
> Alternatively, maybe there is a way to enhance plug-ability of filters
> with more modern methods like OSGi.
>
>
I haven't had good experiences with OSGi, it breaks JDBC, breaks RMI, and
has problems with other cases where classes are dynamically loaded at
runtime without using OSGi's own APIs to do it. AOO's UNO can only load
classes at runtime and use custom classloaders.
> Regards,
> Dave
>
>
Regards
Damjan
RE: Project Goals and Targets (was: Writer and .docx)
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello,
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:petko@apache.org]
> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2020 5:48 AM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Project Goals and Targets (was: Writer and .docx)
>
>
> Am 18.10.20 um 04:13 schrieb Dave Fisher:
> > Top posting as well. I think we should consider our goals
> as a project. If one of those goals is support for ODF as a
> theory of everything office that you can trust and know will
> remain parsable a century from now then what does that mean for OOXML?
>
> The goals and current targets of the Project are imho:
> [...]
I would like to add the following thought:
We could bring some function extension by extensions (programmed mainly in StarBasic) into the program.
In my opinion, this should be done in an orderly and not spontaneous way, which I mean:
there could be _exactly one_ extension for this, which is directly integrated into the installation package and which implements individual additional functions _in separate libraries_.
If we create a specification for this extension, the StarBasic programmers could encourage StarBasic programmers to adapt their own existing extensions with additional functions and create new ones.
Of course, in this way, not any function additions are possible (some are technically not possible and for some StarBasic is an unfavorable language), but some things can be implemented with StarBasic in the same quality as in C++.
What has been said is at first only a thought and at present not a real plan. To express these thoughts follows the hope to speed up the development by tapping programming resources, which are lying idle.
Jörg
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Project Goals and Targets (was: Writer and .docx)
Posted by Peter Kovacs <pe...@apache.org>.
Am 18.10.20 um 04:13 schrieb Dave Fisher:
> Top posting as well. I think we should consider our goals as a project. If one of those goals is support for ODF as a theory of everything office that you can trust and know will remain parsable a century from now then what does that mean for OOXML?
The goals and current targets of the Project are imho:
# Maintenance
## Blocker List of 4.2.x
## Diverse Error reports (I want to advertise my Jira Collection of bugs
maybe?)
## SDK renewal
## Fix the '###' Write issue
## Fix the Profile Issue
### add a the support script for resetting the Profile by clicking
### Maybe having a Profile validator that wirtes reports would be also
something.
# Enablement for our users in features they request.
## OOXML is really requested a lot, imho always if people need to
collaborate with Microsoft Office users.
## Win64 bit is not really requested but something we need to continue
## Enhancement of our Applications (Michael whished for some
improvements in Base and Impress; others have reached out to talk about
Calc.)
# Enhance the Infrastructure / Code to lower maintenance costs.
## GSI Check is there to name. (Yea I should continue)
## SCONs transition
Now we can argue if an OOXML filter needs to be part of the Core
implementation. But have it developed as within a branch is not a big
deal. Lets see how it goes.
Maybe it attracts people who like to work on this topic? To make a
request visible is not bad.
All the Best
Peter
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Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Dave Fisher <wa...@apache.org>.
Hi -
Top posting as well. I think we should consider our goals as a project. If one of those goals is support for ODF as a theory of everything office that you can trust and know will remain parsable a century from now then what does that mean for OOXML?
I think it means that OpenOffice could be the arbiter of converting OOXML into ODF. As such I’m more interested of using tools like POI to drive that conversion into ODF and leave the other direction to the commercial vendors.
There is a similar but more complex semantically conversion of PDF into ODF.
Alternatively, maybe there is a way to enhance plug-ability of filters with more modern methods like OSGi.
Regards,
Dave
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 17, 2020, at 1:55 PM, Hagar Delest <de...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Top posting.
> I fully agree with Pedro.
> The MS Office OOXML support is a core question for the project IMHO.
> I think that the success of LO is heavily based on OOXML support. It provides users something they believe is a clone of MS Office (or at least good enough to meet their needs and exchange docx/xlsx/pptx with other users).
>
> But it is very detrimental to ODF because if it works so well for users using OOXML, then why bother with another format (ODF)???
>
> By the way, our company just upgraded from MS Office 2010 to 2016 and it is quite a nightmare with many documents needing readjustments due to changes in the OOXML version it seems (it provides again a "compatibility mode").
> Meaning that their own format is very likely to change again and again, making it always difficult for the other applications to catch up with the changes.
>
> The best method to work with OOXML is to buy MS Office. Why not focusing on improving AOO first?
> If people do need the OOXML export, then they will all switch to LO. If a AOO user base remains, then better improve AOO for them.
>
> Even if AOO had a very good import/export filter, since it has less features anyway, what would be the point exactly?
>
> Hagar
>
>> Le 17/10/2020 à 15:33, Pedro Lino a écrit :
>> Hi Andrew
>>
>>>> On 10/17/2020 1:37 PM Andrew Pitonyak <an...@pitonyak.org> wrote:
>>> (1) Sometimes contractually obligated to deliver some products in DOCX format. I am pretty good at knowing what things will export properly to DOCX format and which will not (just because I have done it often enough). Only once have I had a client (it was government DoD) that would accept (and even required) and ODT file.
>> Then you are a very valuable person for helping in fixing these Import/Export issues
>> I always send documents in Open Document (to EU, ICCAT, etc) and they will not refuse it ;)
>>
>>
>>> (2) Frequently exchange documents with clients that will use/require DOCX.
>> I usually save them in DOC and I haven't had complaints. In the cases where formatting is lost, then I have to switch to Windows 7 and an old copy of MS Office 2010 and even so there are issues sometimes (but I refuse to continually buy the new version that MS is pushing). I don't use LibreOffice for that because there is also format loss (sometimes even content loss)
>>
>>> (3) I frequently work with people who are better off not having to deal with the extra steps of converting between formats.
>> That is indeed an obstacle. But using DOC, XLS and PPT usually solves the problem. In fact I think that MS old formats have become the lingua franca of the office documents ;)
>>
>>> All else being equal, if you fall into the categories above, I usually tell them to use LibreOffice because it will natively support reading and writing DOCX format. When I ask people why they chose LibreOffice over Apache OpenOffice, DOCX support is the reason usually listed.
>> Yes, that is indeed one advantage. But as I mentioned before, there are serious glitches when using MS XML formats in LibreOffice and in addition this will help Microsoft make their format the standard. And I believe that is the wrong option.
>>
>> Many governments and organizations have accepted Open Document as a solution to be free from proprietary formats. The reason they can't switch to it is because all PCs are loaded with Windows and Office... And MS Office will only accept without warnings ODF documents created and edited in MS Office...
>>
>> I do not have a solution for this profit based bullying but accepting to use MS XML formats is becoming part of the problem and not part of the solution...
>>
>> Regards,
>> Pedro
>>
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Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Hagar Delest <de...@gmail.com>.
Top posting.
I fully agree with Pedro.
The MS Office OOXML support is a core question for the project IMHO.
I think that the success of LO is heavily based on OOXML support. It
provides users something they believe is a clone of MS Office (or at
least good enough to meet their needs and exchange docx/xlsx/pptx with
other users).
But it is very detrimental to ODF because if it works so well for users
using OOXML, then why bother with another format (ODF)???
By the way, our company just upgraded from MS Office 2010 to 2016 and it
is quite a nightmare with many documents needing readjustments due to
changes in the OOXML version it seems (it provides again a
"compatibility mode").
Meaning that their own format is very likely to change again and again,
making it always difficult for the other applications to catch up with
the changes.
The best method to work with OOXML is to buy MS Office. Why not focusing
on improving AOO first?
If people do need the OOXML export, then they will all switch to LO. If
a AOO user base remains, then better improve AOO for them.
Even if AOO had a very good import/export filter, since it has less
features anyway, what would be the point exactly?
Hagar
Le 17/10/2020 à 15:33, Pedro Lino a écrit :
> Hi Andrew
>
>> On 10/17/2020 1:37 PM Andrew Pitonyak <an...@pitonyak.org> wrote:
>> (1) Sometimes contractually obligated to deliver some products in DOCX format. I am pretty good at knowing what things will export properly to DOCX format and which will not (just because I have done it often enough). Only once have I had a client (it was government DoD) that would accept (and even required) and ODT file.
> Then you are a very valuable person for helping in fixing these Import/Export issues
> I always send documents in Open Document (to EU, ICCAT, etc) and they will not refuse it ;)
>
>
>> (2) Frequently exchange documents with clients that will use/require DOCX.
> I usually save them in DOC and I haven't had complaints. In the cases where formatting is lost, then I have to switch to Windows 7 and an old copy of MS Office 2010 and even so there are issues sometimes (but I refuse to continually buy the new version that MS is pushing). I don't use LibreOffice for that because there is also format loss (sometimes even content loss)
>
>> (3) I frequently work with people who are better off not having to deal with the extra steps of converting between formats.
> That is indeed an obstacle. But using DOC, XLS and PPT usually solves the problem. In fact I think that MS old formats have become the lingua franca of the office documents ;)
>
>> All else being equal, if you fall into the categories above, I usually tell them to use LibreOffice because it will natively support reading and writing DOCX format. When I ask people why they chose LibreOffice over Apache OpenOffice, DOCX support is the reason usually listed.
> Yes, that is indeed one advantage. But as I mentioned before, there are serious glitches when using MS XML formats in LibreOffice and in addition this will help Microsoft make their format the standard. And I believe that is the wrong option.
>
> Many governments and organizations have accepted Open Document as a solution to be free from proprietary formats. The reason they can't switch to it is because all PCs are loaded with Windows and Office... And MS Office will only accept without warnings ODF documents created and edited in MS Office...
>
> I do not have a solution for this profit based bullying but accepting to use MS XML formats is becoming part of the problem and not part of the solution...
>
> Regards,
> Pedro
>
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Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Pedro Lino <pe...@mailbox.org.INVALID>.
Hi Andrew
> On 10/17/2020 1:37 PM Andrew Pitonyak <an...@pitonyak.org> wrote:
> (1) Sometimes contractually obligated to deliver some products in DOCX format. I am pretty good at knowing what things will export properly to DOCX format and which will not (just because I have done it often enough). Only once have I had a client (it was government DoD) that would accept (and even required) and ODT file.
Then you are a very valuable person for helping in fixing these Import/Export issues
I always send documents in Open Document (to EU, ICCAT, etc) and they will not refuse it ;)
> (2) Frequently exchange documents with clients that will use/require DOCX.
I usually save them in DOC and I haven't had complaints. In the cases where formatting is lost, then I have to switch to Windows 7 and an old copy of MS Office 2010 and even so there are issues sometimes (but I refuse to continually buy the new version that MS is pushing). I don't use LibreOffice for that because there is also format loss (sometimes even content loss)
> (3) I frequently work with people who are better off not having to deal with the extra steps of converting between formats.
That is indeed an obstacle. But using DOC, XLS and PPT usually solves the problem. In fact I think that MS old formats have become the lingua franca of the office documents ;)
> All else being equal, if you fall into the categories above, I usually tell them to use LibreOffice because it will natively support reading and writing DOCX format. When I ask people why they chose LibreOffice over Apache OpenOffice, DOCX support is the reason usually listed.
Yes, that is indeed one advantage. But as I mentioned before, there are serious glitches when using MS XML formats in LibreOffice and in addition this will help Microsoft make their format the standard. And I believe that is the wrong option.
Many governments and organizations have accepted Open Document as a solution to be free from proprietary formats. The reason they can't switch to it is because all PCs are loaded with Windows and Office... And MS Office will only accept without warnings ODF documents created and edited in MS Office...
I do not have a solution for this profit based bullying but accepting to use MS XML formats is becoming part of the problem and not part of the solution...
Regards,
Pedro
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Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Andrew Pitonyak <an...@pitonyak.org>.
On Saturday, October 17, 2020 04:56 EDT, Pedro Lino <pe...@mailbox.org.INVALID> wrote:
Hi all
> On 10/17/2020 9:11 AM Matthias Seidel <ma...@hamburg.de> wrote:
> My point is that one should do the work in ODF and only export to
> "foreign" formats if needed.
+1
This is how Gimp works. You can import any format, work on it using the program's own format XCF (not Photoshop's PSD to please the majority) and in the end you can export to whatever format (PNG, JPG, etc)
In fact the "foreign" formats don't even show up in the Save options. For me this is the best solution!
On the other hand (as it happens in LibreOffice) exporting to Microsoft's XML will never be perfect (Microsoft will make sure!) and there will always be people complaining but it is far better that there is a single conversion before sending the document!
(1) Sometimes contractually obligated to deliver some products in DOCX format. I am pretty good at knowing what things will export properly to DOCX format and which will not (just because I have done it often enough). Only once have I had a client (it was government DoD) that would accept (and even required) and ODT file.
(2) Frequently exchange documents with clients that will use/require DOCX.
(3) I frequently work with people who are better off not having to deal with the extra steps of converting between formats.
All else being equal, if you fall into the categories above, I usually tell them to use LibreOffice because it will natively support reading and writing DOCX format. When I ask people why they chose LibreOffice over Apache OpenOffice, DOCX support is the reason usuall listed.
Andrew Pitonyak
Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Pedro Lino <pe...@mailbox.org.INVALID>.
Hi all
> On 10/17/2020 9:11 AM Matthias Seidel <ma...@hamburg.de> wrote:
> My point is that one should do the work in ODF and only export to
> "foreign" formats if needed.
+1
This is how Gimp works. You can import any format, work on it using the program's own format XCF (not Photoshop's PSD to please the majority) and in the end you can export to whatever format (PNG, JPG, etc)
In fact the "foreign" formats don't even show up in the Save options. For me this is the best solution!
On the other hand (as it happens in LibreOffice) exporting to Microsoft's XML will never be perfect (Microsoft will make sure!) and there will always be people complaining but it is far better that there is a single conversion before sending the document!
Regards,
Pedro
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Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Matthias Seidel <ma...@hamburg.de>.
Hi Damjan,
Am 17.10.20 um 10:05 schrieb Damjan Jovanovic:
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 11:50 AM Bidouille <oo...@free.fr> wrote:
>
>>> OpenOffice users can open documents in .docx format, but they cannot
>>> save in that format.
>> Well, remember that last version of Microsoft Office (since 2016) can open
>> ODT format.
>>
>>
> Unfortunately not all MS Office editions have ODT support, and many people
> I sent ODT to complained they can't open it.
Acknowledged!
My point is that one should do the work in ODF and only export to
"foreign" formats if needed.
Export using POI was an idea we also got at ApacheCon Berlin in 2019.
Developing it as an extension would be the best for all.
Regards,
Matthias
>
Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Damjan Jovanovic <da...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 11:50 AM Bidouille <oo...@free.fr> wrote:
> > OpenOffice users can open documents in .docx format, but they cannot
> > save in that format.
> Well, remember that last version of Microsoft Office (since 2016) can open
> ODT format.
>
>
Unfortunately not all MS Office editions have ODT support, and many people
I sent ODT to complained they can't open it.
Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Peter Kovacs <pe...@apache.org>.
I m also in support, whatever that is worth :)
Am 16.10.20 um 21:56 schrieb Carl Marcum:
> <snip/>
>>>> I might get back into this next month, especially if others want to
>>>> collaborate, but don't expect something generally usable, let alone
>>>> Excel-quality XSLX saving, any time soon.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Damjan
>>>>
>>> Yes I'm definitely interested in collaborating on this.
>>> Do you have a branch with your work in it?
>>>
>>>
>> It's been 5 years and the code is in bits and pieces, but I'll try to
>> put
>> together a working branch over the weekend.
>
> Whenever you have time.
> Just let me know.
>
> Thanks,
> Carl
>
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Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Carl Marcum <cm...@apache.org>.
<snip/>
>>> I might get back into this next month, especially if others want to
>>> collaborate, but don't expect something generally usable, let alone
>>> Excel-quality XSLX saving, any time soon.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Damjan
>>>
>> Yes I'm definitely interested in collaborating on this.
>> Do you have a branch with your work in it?
>>
>>
> It's been 5 years and the code is in bits and pieces, but I'll try to put
> together a working branch over the weekend.
Whenever you have time.
Just let me know.
Thanks,
Carl
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Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Damjan Jovanovic <da...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 4:24 PM Carl Marcum <cm...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi Damjan,
>
> On 10/16/20 9:23 AM, Damjan Jovanovic wrote:
> > On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 2:05 PM Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi -
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On Oct 16, 2020, at 4:04 AM, Mechtilde <oo...@mechtilde.de> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hello Joost,
> >>>
> >>> I'm very happy to read from you.
> >>>
> >>>> Am 16.10.20 um 12:50 schrieb Joost Andrae:
> >>>> Hi Simon,
> >>>>
> >>>> it's an honor to me to see a sign of life of you here. Welcome !
> >>>>
> >>>> Instead of user picking here to get users leave from AOO to LO a
> >>>> developer could create a Java based OOo/LO extension that uses Apache
> >>>> POI to export OpenDocument type documents to MSXML formats by using
> the
> >>>> binary MSO export to export those documents to the MSXML format in
> >>>> between. Or maybe it's possible to XSL this document format by using
> >>>> OpenOffice together with Apache POI. Using XSL scripts (in AOO menu
> item
> >>>> XML filter settings) to make document conversions is possible within
> >> OOo.
> >>> I offer my help to test the implementation. sorry but I'm not a
> >>> programmer. So we as the project need help from Java programmers to
> work
> >>> on it and contribute it.
> >> I’m a PMC Member of Apache POI for over 12 years. My team donated the
> >> initial PowerPoint support and were involved in the initial support for
> >> OOXML.
> >>
> >> POI is embedded into Apache SOLr and Tika along with commercial
> products.
> >> The project took over the dormant XMLBeans project and is releasing a
> 4.0
> >> that supports modern Java.
> >>
> >> An OSGi bundle of POI will be available in the next release if you build
> >> from source.
> >>
> >> The Tika, POI, and PDFBox projects maintain a large regression corpus
> >> scraped from the internet using CommonCrawl. I’m sure that this could be
> >> shared in one way or another.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>
> > Hi
> >
> > I did start writing a POI-based OOXML export filter for AOO some years
> ago
> > (search the dev mailing list), and got it to the point of being able to
> > save very basic spreadsheets (no formulas, no formatting, just text and
> > numbers).
> >
> > There were several major problems with using POI.
> >
> > Firstly the code in POI is at various stages of completeness. The legacy
> > XLS filter is very good, supports SAX parsing, etc. The DOC filter is
> > minimal and unmaintained. What we would need, the OOXML filter for at
> least
> > XLSX, is somewhere in between. AFAIK it only supports DOM parsing,
> meaning
> > everything needs to be in memory before it can be written to disk, so a
> big
> > spreadsheet could consume gigabytes of RAM during saving, and if you
> don't
> > have enough memory free, you can't save!
> >
> > Also I do use POI at work, and it's outstanding for parsing spreadsheets
> > (it can even parse some that AOO can't), but it's very memory hungry. A
> > spreadsheet with 100000 rows consumed 6 GB of RAM, compared to 200 MB in
> LO
> > (30 times less). That isn't really POI's fault, Java has too much
> > per-object overhead and there are a great many objects in a spreadsheet
> > that big. So DOM + Java really do not add up to efficient memory usage.
> By
> > comparison, our current OOXML reading is not only SAX-based, but converts
> > XML tags to integers for faster comparisons and lower memory usage.
> >
> > Finally AOO itself had limitations that made developing a filter in Java
> > difficult. Each sheet in a spreadsheet has 1 billion cells. Obviously
> only
> > a minority of these contain data - most are empty. In C++ there are
> special
> > iterators that can be used to access only the non-empty cells, but these
> > are not exposed to UNO, or through it, to Java. The only way to tell
> which
> > cells are in use is to iterate over all 1 billion cells (per sheet),
> which
> > is hopelessly slow.
> >
> > Some of these problems can be solved. We can expose the cell iterators
> over
> > UNO. The memory usage might not matter that much in practice, and we
> could
> > patch POI to do SAX parsing/saving at a later stage. But users expect
> > fonts, styles, charts, images, custom formats, OLE, pivot tables, VBA
> > macros, form controls, mathematical formulas, change tracking, etc. all
> > saved losslessly and 100% compatible with Excel, which doesn't only
> require
> > work in the filter, but in the rest of AOO too, and POI probably doesn't
> > support all of those features either.
> I'm not sure if you've look at the newer Streaming Usermodel API SXSSF.
> It may help for memory consumption in this case.
>
>
Can SXSSF work with formulas that reference earlier cells?
> >
> > I might get back into this next month, especially if others want to
> > collaborate, but don't expect something generally usable, let alone
> > Excel-quality XSLX saving, any time soon.
> >
> > Regards
> > Damjan
> >
> Yes I'm definitely interested in collaborating on this.
> Do you have a branch with your work in it?
>
>
It's been 5 years and the code is in bits and pieces, but I'll try to put
together a working branch over the weekend.
> Thanks,
> Carl
>
>
Thank you
Damjan
Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Carl Marcum <cm...@apache.org>.
Hi Damjan,
On 10/16/20 9:23 AM, Damjan Jovanovic wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 2:05 PM Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi -
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Oct 16, 2020, at 4:04 AM, Mechtilde <oo...@mechtilde.de> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Joost,
>>>
>>> I'm very happy to read from you.
>>>
>>>> Am 16.10.20 um 12:50 schrieb Joost Andrae:
>>>> Hi Simon,
>>>>
>>>> it's an honor to me to see a sign of life of you here. Welcome !
>>>>
>>>> Instead of user picking here to get users leave from AOO to LO a
>>>> developer could create a Java based OOo/LO extension that uses Apache
>>>> POI to export OpenDocument type documents to MSXML formats by using the
>>>> binary MSO export to export those documents to the MSXML format in
>>>> between. Or maybe it's possible to XSL this document format by using
>>>> OpenOffice together with Apache POI. Using XSL scripts (in AOO menu item
>>>> XML filter settings) to make document conversions is possible within
>> OOo.
>>> I offer my help to test the implementation. sorry but I'm not a
>>> programmer. So we as the project need help from Java programmers to work
>>> on it and contribute it.
>> I’m a PMC Member of Apache POI for over 12 years. My team donated the
>> initial PowerPoint support and were involved in the initial support for
>> OOXML.
>>
>> POI is embedded into Apache SOLr and Tika along with commercial products.
>> The project took over the dormant XMLBeans project and is releasing a 4.0
>> that supports modern Java.
>>
>> An OSGi bundle of POI will be available in the next release if you build
>> from source.
>>
>> The Tika, POI, and PDFBox projects maintain a large regression corpus
>> scraped from the internet using CommonCrawl. I’m sure that this could be
>> shared in one way or another.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>>
>>
> Hi
>
> I did start writing a POI-based OOXML export filter for AOO some years ago
> (search the dev mailing list), and got it to the point of being able to
> save very basic spreadsheets (no formulas, no formatting, just text and
> numbers).
>
> There were several major problems with using POI.
>
> Firstly the code in POI is at various stages of completeness. The legacy
> XLS filter is very good, supports SAX parsing, etc. The DOC filter is
> minimal and unmaintained. What we would need, the OOXML filter for at least
> XLSX, is somewhere in between. AFAIK it only supports DOM parsing, meaning
> everything needs to be in memory before it can be written to disk, so a big
> spreadsheet could consume gigabytes of RAM during saving, and if you don't
> have enough memory free, you can't save!
>
> Also I do use POI at work, and it's outstanding for parsing spreadsheets
> (it can even parse some that AOO can't), but it's very memory hungry. A
> spreadsheet with 100000 rows consumed 6 GB of RAM, compared to 200 MB in LO
> (30 times less). That isn't really POI's fault, Java has too much
> per-object overhead and there are a great many objects in a spreadsheet
> that big. So DOM + Java really do not add up to efficient memory usage. By
> comparison, our current OOXML reading is not only SAX-based, but converts
> XML tags to integers for faster comparisons and lower memory usage.
>
> Finally AOO itself had limitations that made developing a filter in Java
> difficult. Each sheet in a spreadsheet has 1 billion cells. Obviously only
> a minority of these contain data - most are empty. In C++ there are special
> iterators that can be used to access only the non-empty cells, but these
> are not exposed to UNO, or through it, to Java. The only way to tell which
> cells are in use is to iterate over all 1 billion cells (per sheet), which
> is hopelessly slow.
>
> Some of these problems can be solved. We can expose the cell iterators over
> UNO. The memory usage might not matter that much in practice, and we could
> patch POI to do SAX parsing/saving at a later stage. But users expect
> fonts, styles, charts, images, custom formats, OLE, pivot tables, VBA
> macros, form controls, mathematical formulas, change tracking, etc. all
> saved losslessly and 100% compatible with Excel, which doesn't only require
> work in the filter, but in the rest of AOO too, and POI probably doesn't
> support all of those features either.
I'm not sure if you've look at the newer Streaming Usermodel API SXSSF.
It may help for memory consumption in this case.
>
> I might get back into this next month, especially if others want to
> collaborate, but don't expect something generally usable, let alone
> Excel-quality XSLX saving, any time soon.
>
> Regards
> Damjan
>
Yes I'm definitely interested in collaborating on this.
Do you have a branch with your work in it?
Thanks,
Carl
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Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Damjan Jovanovic <da...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 2:05 PM Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi -
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Oct 16, 2020, at 4:04 AM, Mechtilde <oo...@mechtilde.de> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Joost,
> >
> > I'm very happy to read from you.
> >
> >> Am 16.10.20 um 12:50 schrieb Joost Andrae:
> >> Hi Simon,
> >>
> >> it's an honor to me to see a sign of life of you here. Welcome !
> >>
> >> Instead of user picking here to get users leave from AOO to LO a
> >> developer could create a Java based OOo/LO extension that uses Apache
> >> POI to export OpenDocument type documents to MSXML formats by using the
> >> binary MSO export to export those documents to the MSXML format in
> >> between. Or maybe it's possible to XSL this document format by using
> >> OpenOffice together with Apache POI. Using XSL scripts (in AOO menu item
> >> XML filter settings) to make document conversions is possible within
> OOo.
> >
> > I offer my help to test the implementation. sorry but I'm not a
> > programmer. So we as the project need help from Java programmers to work
> > on it and contribute it.
>
> I’m a PMC Member of Apache POI for over 12 years. My team donated the
> initial PowerPoint support and were involved in the initial support for
> OOXML.
>
> POI is embedded into Apache SOLr and Tika along with commercial products.
> The project took over the dormant XMLBeans project and is releasing a 4.0
> that supports modern Java.
>
> An OSGi bundle of POI will be available in the next release if you build
> from source.
>
> The Tika, POI, and PDFBox projects maintain a large regression corpus
> scraped from the internet using CommonCrawl. I’m sure that this could be
> shared in one way or another.
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
>
Hi
I did start writing a POI-based OOXML export filter for AOO some years ago
(search the dev mailing list), and got it to the point of being able to
save very basic spreadsheets (no formulas, no formatting, just text and
numbers).
There were several major problems with using POI.
Firstly the code in POI is at various stages of completeness. The legacy
XLS filter is very good, supports SAX parsing, etc. The DOC filter is
minimal and unmaintained. What we would need, the OOXML filter for at least
XLSX, is somewhere in between. AFAIK it only supports DOM parsing, meaning
everything needs to be in memory before it can be written to disk, so a big
spreadsheet could consume gigabytes of RAM during saving, and if you don't
have enough memory free, you can't save!
Also I do use POI at work, and it's outstanding for parsing spreadsheets
(it can even parse some that AOO can't), but it's very memory hungry. A
spreadsheet with 100000 rows consumed 6 GB of RAM, compared to 200 MB in LO
(30 times less). That isn't really POI's fault, Java has too much
per-object overhead and there are a great many objects in a spreadsheet
that big. So DOM + Java really do not add up to efficient memory usage. By
comparison, our current OOXML reading is not only SAX-based, but converts
XML tags to integers for faster comparisons and lower memory usage.
Finally AOO itself had limitations that made developing a filter in Java
difficult. Each sheet in a spreadsheet has 1 billion cells. Obviously only
a minority of these contain data - most are empty. In C++ there are special
iterators that can be used to access only the non-empty cells, but these
are not exposed to UNO, or through it, to Java. The only way to tell which
cells are in use is to iterate over all 1 billion cells (per sheet), which
is hopelessly slow.
Some of these problems can be solved. We can expose the cell iterators over
UNO. The memory usage might not matter that much in practice, and we could
patch POI to do SAX parsing/saving at a later stage. But users expect
fonts, styles, charts, images, custom formats, OLE, pivot tables, VBA
macros, form controls, mathematical formulas, change tracking, etc. all
saved losslessly and 100% compatible with Excel, which doesn't only require
work in the filter, but in the rest of AOO too, and POI probably doesn't
support all of those features either.
I might get back into this next month, especially if others want to
collaborate, but don't expect something generally usable, let alone
Excel-quality XSLX saving, any time soon.
Regards
Damjan
Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net>.
Hi -
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 16, 2020, at 4:04 AM, Mechtilde <oo...@mechtilde.de> wrote:
>
> Hello Joost,
>
> I'm very happy to read from you.
>
>> Am 16.10.20 um 12:50 schrieb Joost Andrae:
>> Hi Simon,
>>
>> it's an honor to me to see a sign of life of you here. Welcome !
>>
>> Instead of user picking here to get users leave from AOO to LO a
>> developer could create a Java based OOo/LO extension that uses Apache
>> POI to export OpenDocument type documents to MSXML formats by using the
>> binary MSO export to export those documents to the MSXML format in
>> between. Or maybe it's possible to XSL this document format by using
>> OpenOffice together with Apache POI. Using XSL scripts (in AOO menu item
>> XML filter settings) to make document conversions is possible within OOo.
>
> I offer my help to test the implementation. sorry but I'm not a
> programmer. So we as the project need help from Java programmers to work
> on it and contribute it.
I’m a PMC Member of Apache POI for over 12 years. My team donated the initial PowerPoint support and were involved in the initial support for OOXML.
POI is embedded into Apache SOLr and Tika along with commercial products. The project took over the dormant XMLBeans project and is releasing a 4.0 that supports modern Java.
An OSGi bundle of POI will be available in the next release if you build from source.
The Tika, POI, and PDFBox projects maintain a large regression corpus scraped from the internet using CommonCrawl. I’m sure that this could be shared in one way or another.
Regards,
Dave
>
>>
>> Document conversions do not necessarily need to be a native
>> implementation within AOO or LO.
>>
>> Kind regards, Joost
>
> Kind regards
>
>
> --
> Mechtilde Stehmann
> ## Apache OpenOffice
> ## Freie Office Suite für Linux, MacOSX, Windows und OS/2
> ## Debian Developer
> ## PGP encryption welcome
> ## F0E3 7F3D C87A 4998 2899 39E7 F287 7BBA 141A AD7F
>
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Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Mechtilde <oo...@mechtilde.de>.
Hello Joost,
I'm very happy to read from you.
Am 16.10.20 um 12:50 schrieb Joost Andrae:
> Hi Simon,
>
> it's an honor to me to see a sign of life of you here. Welcome !
>
> Instead of user picking here to get users leave from AOO to LO a
> developer could create a Java based OOo/LO extension that uses Apache
> POI to export OpenDocument type documents to MSXML formats by using the
> binary MSO export to export those documents to the MSXML format in
> between. Or maybe it's possible to XSL this document format by using
> OpenOffice together with Apache POI. Using XSL scripts (in AOO menu item
> XML filter settings) to make document conversions is possible within OOo.
I offer my help to test the implementation. sorry but I'm not a
programmer. So we as the project need help from Java programmers to work
on it and contribute it.
>
> Document conversions do not necessarily need to be a native
> implementation within AOO or LO.
>
> Kind regards, Joost
Kind regards
--
Mechtilde Stehmann
## Apache OpenOffice
## Freie Office Suite für Linux, MacOSX, Windows und OS/2
## Debian Developer
## PGP encryption welcome
## F0E3 7F3D C87A 4998 2899 39E7 F287 7BBA 141A AD7F
Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
Hi Joost!
On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 11:49 AM Joost Andrae <Jo...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi Simon,
>
> it's an honor to me to see a sign of life of you here. Welcome !
>
I've been a relatively active member here from the beginning!
Instead of user picking here to get users leave from AOO to LO a
> developer could create a Java based OOo/LO extension that uses Apache
> POI to export OpenDocument type documents to MSXML formats by using the
> binary MSO export to export those documents to the MSXML format in
> between. Or maybe it's possible to XSL this document format by using
> OpenOffice together with Apache POI. Using XSL scripts (in AOO menu item
> XML filter settings) to make document conversions is possible within OOo.
>
That sounds an interesting new user feature. Rather than only using POI, a
pluggable approach that could also use libraries from the Document
Liberation Project https://www.documentliberation.org/ would be excellent.
Cheers,
Simon
Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Joost Andrae <Jo...@gmx.de>.
Hi Simon,
some developer just needs to try to implement this kind of approach.
Fortunately this developer doesn't really need to dive deeply into AOO
implementation details except creating an extension. From my knowlege
the Apache POI implementation is quite stable and it's used by a lot of
software projects since a longer time.
Best regards, Joost
Am 16.10.2020 um 13:05 schrieb Simon Phipps:
> Hi Joost!
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 11:49 AM Joost Andrae <Jo...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> Hi Simon,
>>
>> it's an honor to me to see a sign of life of you here. Welcome !
>>
>
> I've been a relatively active member here from the beginning!
>
> Instead of user picking here to get users leave from AOO to LO a
>> developer could create a Java based OOo/LO extension that uses Apache
>> POI to export OpenDocument type documents to MSXML formats by using the
>> binary MSO export to export those documents to the MSXML format in
>> between. Or maybe it's possible to XSL this document format by using
>> OpenOffice together with Apache POI. Using XSL scripts (in AOO menu item
>> XML filter settings) to make document conversions is possible within OOo.
>>
>
> That sounds an interesting new user feature. Rather than only using POI, a
> pluggable approach that could also use libraries from the Document
> Liberation Project https://www.documentliberation.org/ would be excellent.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Simon
>
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Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Simon Phipps <we...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 12:26 PM Joost Andrae <Jo...@gmx.de> wrote:
> regarding the documentliberation stuff:
> I know some of those filters for a longer time. AFAIK these where
> implementations from one of the Novell guys (Fridrich Strba as far as I
> remember; see http://fridrich.blogspot.com/ )
>
Yes, DLP is his project.
S.
Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Joost Andrae <Jo...@gmx.de>.
Hi,
regarding the documentliberation stuff:
I know some of those filters for a longer time. AFAIK these where
implementations from one of the Novell guys (Fridrich Strba as far as I
remember; see http://fridrich.blogspot.com/ )
Best, Joost
Am 16.10.2020 um 13:17 schrieb Joost Andrae:
> Hi Simon,
>
> some developer just needs to try to implement this kind of approach.
> Fortunately this developer doesn't really need to dive deeply into AOO
> implementation details except creating an extension. From my knowlege
> the Apache POI implementation is quite stable and it's used by a lot of
> software projects since a longer time.
>
> Best regards, Joost
>
> Am 16.10.2020 um 13:05 schrieb Simon Phipps:
>> Hi Joost!
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 11:49 AM Joost Andrae <Jo...@gmx.de>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Simon,
>>>
>>> it's an honor to me to see a sign of life of you here. Welcome !
>>>
>>
>> I've been a relatively active member here from the beginning!
>>
>> Instead of user picking here to get users leave from AOO to LO a
>>> developer could create a Java based OOo/LO extension that uses Apache
>>> POI to export OpenDocument type documents to MSXML formats by using the
>>> binary MSO export to export those documents to the MSXML format in
>>> between. Or maybe it's possible to XSL this document format by using
>>> OpenOffice together with Apache POI. Using XSL scripts (in AOO menu item
>>> XML filter settings) to make document conversions is possible within
>>> OOo.
>>>
>>
>> That sounds an interesting new user feature. Rather than only using
>> POI, a
>> pluggable approach that could also use libraries from the Document
>> Liberation Project https://www.documentliberation.org/ would be
>> excellent.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Simon
>>
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Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Joost Andrae <Jo...@gmx.de>.
Hi Simon,
it's an honor to me to see a sign of life of you here. Welcome !
Instead of user picking here to get users leave from AOO to LO a
developer could create a Java based OOo/LO extension that uses Apache
POI to export OpenDocument type documents to MSXML formats by using the
binary MSO export to export those documents to the MSXML format in
between. Or maybe it's possible to XSL this document format by using
OpenOffice together with Apache POI. Using XSL scripts (in AOO menu item
XML filter settings) to make document conversions is possible within OOo.
Document conversions do not necessarily need to be a native
implementation within AOO or LO.
Kind regards, Joost
Am 16.10.2020 um 12:16 schrieb Simon Phipps:
> Hi! As Peter said, it seems unlikely this branch of OpenOffice.org will be
> enhanced with the ability to write .DOCX format. However, another branch
> has added this capability and offers all the other convenient options you
> mention as well. You can get it from our "sister" community at
> https://libreoffice.org/download
>
> Cheers
>
> Simon
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 8:44 AM Наталья Василенко <va...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello! I would like to know is there any hope that users can save
>> documents in Writer in .docx format? In the latest version of your
>> OpenOffice users can open documents in .docx format, but they cannot save
>> in that format. I think it is not comfortable for many users with the fact
>> that your product is very convenient in other options.
>> Could this feature be enabled in later versions of your product?
>>
>> Thank you for your response.
>>
>
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Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Matthias Seidel <ma...@hamburg.de>.
Hi Bidouille,
Am 16.10.20 um 11:49 schrieb Bidouille:
>> OpenOffice users can open documents in .docx format, but they cannot
>> save in that format.
> Well, remember that last version of Microsoft Office (since 2016) can open ODT format.
Exactly, instead of promoting Microsoft formats we should better
encourage users to use ODF.
Regards,
Matthias
>
>
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>
Re: Writer and .docx
Posted by Bidouille <oo...@free.fr>.
> OpenOffice users can open documents in .docx format, but they cannot
> save in that format.
Well, remember that last version of Microsoft Office (since 2016) can open ODT format.
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