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Posted to dev@flink.apache.org by Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org> on 2022/11/03 12:13:27 UTC

ASF Slack

Hi,

A while ago the Flink community decided to create a Slack workspace [1]. I
wonder, is there a particular reason why we created our own Slack workspace
and do not use the official ASF Slack [2]? It looks like most ASF projects
use the official Slack. Using the official Slack makes collaboration with
other projects easier but it also comes with additional benefits, e.g. free
unlimited history (our current workspace suffers from limited history).

Since the vote thread[1] mentioned a re-evaluation of the decision until
the end of 2022, I'd like to propose to move our channels to the official
ASF Slack workspace. In my eyes, the dedicated workspace is a bit of an
overkill and we're better off joining the rest of the ASF community. Let me
know what you think.

-Max

[1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/j2kdh3zx6rrb49mz5n2vb06g2knogxdj
[2] https://infra.apache.org/slack.html

Re: ASF Slack

Posted by Ryan Skraba <ry...@aiven.io.INVALID>.

I have to admit, I also (weakly) prefer a single workspace where possible.
It's easy to miss (or just not look at) the apache-flink workspace because
I didn't think of it.

The spam and spam account issues are probably inevitable for any slack
workspace as it grows, and we can probably reasonably expect to deal with
it in apache-flink as well if it grows significantly popular.  Have we seen
any spammy issues so far at 1362 members (as opposed to the-asf's 11433
members?)

All my best, Ryan

On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 4:51 PM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org> wrote:

> >On the other hand, could you explain a bit more about what are the
> problems / drawbacks that you see in the current Flink Slack?
> >- I assume having to join too many workspaces counts one
>
> I like the idea of having a single workspace for all ASF projects,
> similarly
> to how we share JIRA, mail servers, or other infrastructure. Sharing
> resources usually means there are some constraints but it also has the
> upside of solving problems once for all projects. Arguably that's less true
> for a cloud product like Slack but some customizations can still be applied
> to Slack workspaces to streamline the experience. It looks like the ASF
> hasn't come up with a good workflow for projects, e.g. channel moderation.
>
> It might not be worth migrating back at this point but we can continue the
> evaluation at a later time.
>
> -Max
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 3:31 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-22573
> >
> > On 10/11/2022 11:17, Martijn Visser wrote:
> > > It was discussed at the latest Apachecon conference by Infra during one
> > of
> > > the lightning talks. If I recall correctly, it was primarily turned to
> > > invite-only due to spam. But definitely good to validate that.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 11:09 AM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> The registration problem should be solvable. Maybe it is due to the
> > Slack
> > >> pricing model that the ASF Slack is invite-only. I'll ping the
> community
> > >> mailing list.
> > >>
> > >> Have these issues at any point been discussed with the ASF? I feel
> like
> > >> this is one of the examples where a community spins off to do its own
> > thing
> > >> instead of working together with the foundation.
> > >>
> > >> -Max
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 10:46 AM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi everyone,
> > >>>
> > >>> I agree with Xintong in the sense that I don't see what has changed
> > since
> > >>> the original decision on this topic. In my opinion, there is a high
> > cost
> > >> in
> > >>> moving to ASF now, namely I fear we will loose many of the >1200
> > members
> > >>> and the momentum that I see in the workspace. To me there would need
> to
> > >> be
> > >>> strong reason for reverting this decision now.
> > >>>
> > >>> Cheers,
> > >>>
> > >>> Kosntantin
> > >>>
> > >>> Am Di., 8. Nov. 2022 um 10:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
> > >>> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Hi Max,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks for bringing this up. I'm open to a re-evaluation of the
> Slack
> > >>>> usages.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> In the initial discussion for creating the Slack workspace [1],
> > >>> leveraging
> > >>>> the ASF Slack was indeed brought up as an alternative by many
> folks. I
> > >>>> think we have chosen a dedicated Flink Slack over the ASF Slack
> mainly
> > >>> for
> > >>>> two reasons.
> > >>>> - ASF Slack is limited to people with an @apache.org email address
> > >>>> - With a dedicated Flink Slack, we have the full authority to manage
> > >> and
> > >>>> customize it. E.g., archiving / removing improper channels,
> reporting
> > >> the
> > >>>> build and benchmark reports to channels, subscribing and re-post
> Flink
> > >>> blog
> > >>>> posts.
> > >>>> As far as I can see, these concerns for the ASF slack have not
> changed
> > >>>> since the previous decision.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On the other hand, could you explain a bit more about what are the
> > >>> problems
> > >>>> / drawbacks that you see in the current Flink Slack?
> > >>>> - I assume having to join too many workspaces counts one
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Best,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Xintong
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> [1]
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n43r4qmwprhdmzrj494dbbwr9w7bbdcv
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 4:51 PM Martijn Visser <
> > >> martijnvisser@apache.org>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> If you click on the link from Beam via an incognito window/logged
> out
> > >>> of
> > >>>>> Slack, you will be prompted to provide the workspace URL of the
> ASF.
> > >> If
> > >>>> you
> > >>>>> do that, you're prompted for a login screen or you can create an
> > >>> account.
> > >>>>> Creating an account prompts you to have an @apache.org email
> > >> address.
> > >>>> See
> > >>>>> https://imgur.com/a/jXvr5Ai
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> So for me that's a -1 for switching to the ASF workspace.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 10:52 PM Austin Bennett <au...@apache.org>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>> +1 to leveraging the larger ASF Community/Resources Slack Channel
> > >>>> rather
> > >>>>>> than an independant one ... ASSUMING ANYONE CAN JOIN [ so that
> > >> needs
> > >>> to
> > >>>>> be
> > >>>>>> verified ].
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 9:05 AM Maximilian Michels <mxm@apache.org
> >
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>> There is a way to work around the invite issue. For example, the
> > >>> Beam
> > >>>>>>> project has a direct invite link which sends you to the #beam
> > >>> channel:
> > >>>>>>> https://app.slack.com/client/T4S1WH2J3/C9H0YNP3P I'm not 100%
> > >> sure
> > >>>>>>> whether
> > >>>>>>> this link actually works. I've take it from:
> > >>>>>>> https://beam.apache.org/community/join-beam/
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> -Max
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 1:48 PM Martijn Visser <
> > >>>> martijnvisser@apache.org
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Hi Max,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> I wonder how that has played out since the creation of the
> > >> Slack
> > >>>>>>>> workspace? I haven't been following the Slack communication.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I think it has primarily played a role next to the existing User
> > >>>>> mailing
> > >>>>>>>> list: lots of user questions. There were maybe a handful of
> > >>>>>>> conversations
> > >>>>>>>> where the result of the conversation was a request to open a
> > >> Jira,
> > >>>>>>> create a
> > >>>>>>>> FLIP or open up a discussion on the Dev list.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
> > >>>>>>>> straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from
> > >>>>> joining.
> > >>>>>>>> That's only possible to use for those with an @apache.org
> > >> e-mail
> > >>>>>>> address,
> > >>>>>>>> see https://infra.apache.org/slack.html. Anyone else would need
> > >>> to
> > >>>> be
> > >>>>>>>> invited by a committer, but I wouldn't be in favour of needing
> > >> to
> > >>>>> spend
> > >>>>>>>> committers time in adding/inviting members on an ASF Slack
> > >>> instance.
> > >>>>>>>> Best regards,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Martijn
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 12:33 PM Maximilian Michels <
> > >>> mxm@apache.org>
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> Hey Martijn, hi Chesnay,
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users
> > >>> can
> > >>>>> join
> > >>>>>>>>> any Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> That is one of the main motivations for proposing to move to
> > >> the
> > >>>> ASF
> > >>>>>>>>> Slack. We can create an unlimited number of "flink-XY" channels
> > >>> in
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> ASF
> > >>>>>>>>> Slack, although one or two are probably all we need. It seems
> > >>>> logical
> > >>>>>>> that
> > >>>>>>>>> we share the Slack workspace, just like the other
> > >> infrastructure
> > >>>> like
> > >>>>>>> JIRA,
> > >>>>>>>>> mail, Jenkins, web server, etc. I guess I'm just in too many
> > >>> Slack
> > >>>>>>>>> workspaces already.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>  From an ASF standpoint, I think it would be desirable to
> > >> channel
> > >>>>> people
> > >>>>>>>>> into the main workspace to promote the software foundation.
> > >> Also,
> > >>>> the
> > >>>>>>> main
> > >>>>>>>>> point of communication should still be the mailing lists. I
> > >>> wonder
> > >>>>> how
> > >>>>>>> that
> > >>>>>>>>> has played out since the creation of the Slack workspace? I
> > >>> haven't
> > >>>>>>> been
> > >>>>>>>>> following the Slack communication.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Not to mention that non-committers need to be invited by an
> > >> ASF
> > >>>>> Slack
> > >>>>>>>>> user to be able to join.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
> > >>>>>>>>> straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from
> > >>>>>>> joining.
> > >>>>>>>>> Linen is pretty nice, especially for making Slack searchable
> > >> via
> > >>>>> search
> > >>>>>>>>> engines.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> -Max
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:44 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> > >>>> chesnay@apache.org>
> > >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> According to Robert linen is supposed to show the entire
> > >>> history.
> > >>>>>>>>>> On 03/11/2022 14:27, Martijn Visser wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Addition: I'm not sure if Linen actually provides the
> > >> messages
> > >>>>> that
> > >>>>>>> are
> > >>>>>>>>>>> older, but I can't test that since we've only recently
> > >>>> integrated
> > >>>>>>> it.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Martijn Visser <
> > >>>>>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Max,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>   From my experience, most ASF projects actually don't use
> > >> the
> > >>>>>>> official
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Slack, but their own instance. That has happened with
> > >>> Airflow,
> > >>>>>>>>>> Iceberg,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hudi etc.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that
> > >> users
> > >>>> can
> > >>>>>>>>>> join any
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink. Not to
> > >>> mention
> > >>>>> that
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack user to
> > >> be
> > >>>> able
> > >>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>>> join.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> The problem with the history is mitigated by using the
> > >>> service
> > >>>>> from
> > >>>>>>>>>> Linen
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.linen.dev/s/apache-flink
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I prefer the current Slack instance of the ASF one.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Martijn
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:14 PM Maximilian Michels <
> > >>>>> mxm@apache.org>
> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> A while ago the Flink community decided to create a Slack
> > >>>>>>> workspace
> > >>>>>>>>>> [1]. I
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder, is there a particular reason why we created our
> > >> own
> > >>>>> Slack
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> workspace
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and do not use the official ASF Slack [2]? It looks like
> > >>> most
> > >>>>> ASF
> > >>>>>>>>>> projects
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> use the official Slack. Using the official Slack makes
> > >>>>>>> collaboration
> > >>>>>>>>>> with
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> other projects easier but it also comes with additional
> > >>>>> benefits,
> > >>>>>>>>>> e.g.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> free
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> unlimited history (our current workspace suffers from
> > >>> limited
> > >>>>>>>>>> history).
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Since the vote thread[1] mentioned a re-evaluation of the
> > >>>>> decision
> > >>>>>>>>>> until
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the end of 2022, I'd like to propose to move our channels
> > >> to
> > >>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>>> official
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ASF Slack workspace. In my eyes, the dedicated workspace
> > >> is
> > >>> a
> > >>>>> bit
> > >>>>>>> of
> > >>>>>>>>>> an
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> overkill and we're better off joining the rest of the ASF
> > >>>>>>> community.
> > >>>>>>>>>> Let
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> me
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> know what you think.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> -Max
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> [1]
> > >>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/j2kdh3zx6rrb49mz5n2vb06g2knogxdj
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> [2] https://infra.apache.org/slack.html
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> > >>> https://github.com/knaufk
> > >>>
> >
> >
>

Re: ASF Slack

Posted by Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>.

>On the other hand, could you explain a bit more about what are the
problems / drawbacks that you see in the current Flink Slack?
>- I assume having to join too many workspaces counts one

I like the idea of having a single workspace for all ASF projects, similarly
to how we share JIRA, mail servers, or other infrastructure. Sharing
resources usually means there are some constraints but it also has the
upside of solving problems once for all projects. Arguably that's less true
for a cloud product like Slack but some customizations can still be applied
to Slack workspaces to streamline the experience. It looks like the ASF
hasn't come up with a good workflow for projects, e.g. channel moderation.

It might not be worth migrating back at this point but we can continue the
evaluation at a later time.

-Max


On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 3:31 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org> wrote:

> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-22573
>
> On 10/11/2022 11:17, Martijn Visser wrote:
> > It was discussed at the latest Apachecon conference by Infra during one
> of
> > the lightning talks. If I recall correctly, it was primarily turned to
> > invite-only due to spam. But definitely good to validate that.
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 11:09 AM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >> The registration problem should be solvable. Maybe it is due to the
> Slack
> >> pricing model that the ASF Slack is invite-only. I'll ping the community
> >> mailing list.
> >>
> >> Have these issues at any point been discussed with the ASF? I feel like
> >> this is one of the examples where a community spins off to do its own
> thing
> >> instead of working together with the foundation.
> >>
> >> -Max
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 10:46 AM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi everyone,
> >>>
> >>> I agree with Xintong in the sense that I don't see what has changed
> since
> >>> the original decision on this topic. In my opinion, there is a high
> cost
> >> in
> >>> moving to ASF now, namely I fear we will loose many of the >1200
> members
> >>> and the momentum that I see in the workspace. To me there would need to
> >> be
> >>> strong reason for reverting this decision now.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> Kosntantin
> >>>
> >>> Am Di., 8. Nov. 2022 um 10:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
> >>> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Max,
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks for bringing this up. I'm open to a re-evaluation of the Slack
> >>>> usages.
> >>>>
> >>>> In the initial discussion for creating the Slack workspace [1],
> >>> leveraging
> >>>> the ASF Slack was indeed brought up as an alternative by many folks. I
> >>>> think we have chosen a dedicated Flink Slack over the ASF Slack mainly
> >>> for
> >>>> two reasons.
> >>>> - ASF Slack is limited to people with an @apache.org email address
> >>>> - With a dedicated Flink Slack, we have the full authority to manage
> >> and
> >>>> customize it. E.g., archiving / removing improper channels, reporting
> >> the
> >>>> build and benchmark reports to channels, subscribing and re-post Flink
> >>> blog
> >>>> posts.
> >>>> As far as I can see, these concerns for the ASF slack have not changed
> >>>> since the previous decision.
> >>>>
> >>>> On the other hand, could you explain a bit more about what are the
> >>> problems
> >>>> / drawbacks that you see in the current Flink Slack?
> >>>> - I assume having to join too many workspaces counts one
> >>>>
> >>>> Best,
> >>>>
> >>>> Xintong
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/n43r4qmwprhdmzrj494dbbwr9w7bbdcv
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 4:51 PM Martijn Visser <
> >> martijnvisser@apache.org>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> If you click on the link from Beam via an incognito window/logged out
> >>> of
> >>>>> Slack, you will be prompted to provide the workspace URL of the ASF.
> >> If
> >>>> you
> >>>>> do that, you're prompted for a login screen or you can create an
> >>> account.
> >>>>> Creating an account prompts you to have an @apache.org email
> >> address.
> >>>> See
> >>>>> https://imgur.com/a/jXvr5Ai
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So for me that's a -1 for switching to the ASF workspace.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 10:52 PM Austin Bennett <au...@apache.org>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> +1 to leveraging the larger ASF Community/Resources Slack Channel
> >>>> rather
> >>>>>> than an independant one ... ASSUMING ANYONE CAN JOIN [ so that
> >> needs
> >>> to
> >>>>> be
> >>>>>> verified ].
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 9:05 AM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> There is a way to work around the invite issue. For example, the
> >>> Beam
> >>>>>>> project has a direct invite link which sends you to the #beam
> >>> channel:
> >>>>>>> https://app.slack.com/client/T4S1WH2J3/C9H0YNP3P I'm not 100%
> >> sure
> >>>>>>> whether
> >>>>>>> this link actually works. I've take it from:
> >>>>>>> https://beam.apache.org/community/join-beam/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -Max
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 1:48 PM Martijn Visser <
> >>>> martijnvisser@apache.org
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi Max,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I wonder how that has played out since the creation of the
> >> Slack
> >>>>>>>> workspace? I haven't been following the Slack communication.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I think it has primarily played a role next to the existing User
> >>>>> mailing
> >>>>>>>> list: lots of user questions. There were maybe a handful of
> >>>>>>> conversations
> >>>>>>>> where the result of the conversation was a request to open a
> >> Jira,
> >>>>>>> create a
> >>>>>>>> FLIP or open up a discussion on the Dev list.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
> >>>>>>>> straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from
> >>>>> joining.
> >>>>>>>> That's only possible to use for those with an @apache.org
> >> e-mail
> >>>>>>> address,
> >>>>>>>> see https://infra.apache.org/slack.html. Anyone else would need
> >>> to
> >>>> be
> >>>>>>>> invited by a committer, but I wouldn't be in favour of needing
> >> to
> >>>>> spend
> >>>>>>>> committers time in adding/inviting members on an ASF Slack
> >>> instance.
> >>>>>>>> Best regards,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Martijn
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 12:33 PM Maximilian Michels <
> >>> mxm@apache.org>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Hey Martijn, hi Chesnay,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users
> >>> can
> >>>>> join
> >>>>>>>>> any Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> That is one of the main motivations for proposing to move to
> >> the
> >>>> ASF
> >>>>>>>>> Slack. We can create an unlimited number of "flink-XY" channels
> >>> in
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>>> ASF
> >>>>>>>>> Slack, although one or two are probably all we need. It seems
> >>>> logical
> >>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> we share the Slack workspace, just like the other
> >> infrastructure
> >>>> like
> >>>>>>> JIRA,
> >>>>>>>>> mail, Jenkins, web server, etc. I guess I'm just in too many
> >>> Slack
> >>>>>>>>> workspaces already.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>  From an ASF standpoint, I think it would be desirable to
> >> channel
> >>>>> people
> >>>>>>>>> into the main workspace to promote the software foundation.
> >> Also,
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>> main
> >>>>>>>>> point of communication should still be the mailing lists. I
> >>> wonder
> >>>>> how
> >>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> has played out since the creation of the Slack workspace? I
> >>> haven't
> >>>>>>> been
> >>>>>>>>> following the Slack communication.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Not to mention that non-committers need to be invited by an
> >> ASF
> >>>>> Slack
> >>>>>>>>> user to be able to join.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
> >>>>>>>>> straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from
> >>>>>>> joining.
> >>>>>>>>> Linen is pretty nice, especially for making Slack searchable
> >> via
> >>>>> search
> >>>>>>>>> engines.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> -Max
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:44 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> >>>> chesnay@apache.org>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> According to Robert linen is supposed to show the entire
> >>> history.
> >>>>>>>>>> On 03/11/2022 14:27, Martijn Visser wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> Addition: I'm not sure if Linen actually provides the
> >> messages
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>> older, but I can't test that since we've only recently
> >>>> integrated
> >>>>>>> it.
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Martijn Visser <
> >>>>>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org>
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Max,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>   From my experience, most ASF projects actually don't use
> >> the
> >>>>>>> official
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Slack, but their own instance. That has happened with
> >>> Airflow,
> >>>>>>>>>> Iceberg,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hudi etc.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that
> >> users
> >>>> can
> >>>>>>>>>> join any
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink. Not to
> >>> mention
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack user to
> >> be
> >>>> able
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> join.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The problem with the history is mitigated by using the
> >>> service
> >>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>> Linen
> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.linen.dev/s/apache-flink
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I prefer the current Slack instance of the ASF one.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Martijn
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:14 PM Maximilian Michels <
> >>>>> mxm@apache.org>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> A while ago the Flink community decided to create a Slack
> >>>>>>> workspace
> >>>>>>>>>> [1]. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder, is there a particular reason why we created our
> >> own
> >>>>> Slack
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> workspace
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and do not use the official ASF Slack [2]? It looks like
> >>> most
> >>>>> ASF
> >>>>>>>>>> projects
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> use the official Slack. Using the official Slack makes
> >>>>>>> collaboration
> >>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> other projects easier but it also comes with additional
> >>>>> benefits,
> >>>>>>>>>> e.g.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> free
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> unlimited history (our current workspace suffers from
> >>> limited
> >>>>>>>>>> history).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Since the vote thread[1] mentioned a re-evaluation of the
> >>>>> decision
> >>>>>>>>>> until
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the end of 2022, I'd like to propose to move our channels
> >> to
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> official
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ASF Slack workspace. In my eyes, the dedicated workspace
> >> is
> >>> a
> >>>>> bit
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>> an
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> overkill and we're better off joining the rest of the ASF
> >>>>>>> community.
> >>>>>>>>>> Let
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> me
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> know what you think.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -Max
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [1]
> >>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/j2kdh3zx6rrb49mz5n2vb06g2knogxdj
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [2] https://infra.apache.org/slack.html
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> >>> https://github.com/knaufk
> >>>
>
>

Re: ASF Slack

Posted by Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>.

https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-22573

On 10/11/2022 11:17, Martijn Visser wrote:
> It was discussed at the latest Apachecon conference by Infra during one of
> the lightning talks. If I recall correctly, it was primarily turned to
> invite-only due to spam. But definitely good to validate that.
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 11:09 AM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> The registration problem should be solvable. Maybe it is due to the Slack
>> pricing model that the ASF Slack is invite-only. I'll ping the community
>> mailing list.
>>
>> Have these issues at any point been discussed with the ASF? I feel like
>> this is one of the examples where a community spins off to do its own thing
>> instead of working together with the foundation.
>>
>> -Max
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 10:46 AM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I agree with Xintong in the sense that I don't see what has changed since
>>> the original decision on this topic. In my opinion, there is a high cost
>> in
>>> moving to ASF now, namely I fear we will loose many of the >1200 members
>>> and the momentum that I see in the workspace. To me there would need to
>> be
>>> strong reason for reverting this decision now.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Kosntantin
>>>
>>> Am Di., 8. Nov. 2022 um 10:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> Hi Max,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for bringing this up. I'm open to a re-evaluation of the Slack
>>>> usages.
>>>>
>>>> In the initial discussion for creating the Slack workspace [1],
>>> leveraging
>>>> the ASF Slack was indeed brought up as an alternative by many folks. I
>>>> think we have chosen a dedicated Flink Slack over the ASF Slack mainly
>>> for
>>>> two reasons.
>>>> - ASF Slack is limited to people with an @apache.org email address
>>>> - With a dedicated Flink Slack, we have the full authority to manage
>> and
>>>> customize it. E.g., archiving / removing improper channels, reporting
>> the
>>>> build and benchmark reports to channels, subscribing and re-post Flink
>>> blog
>>>> posts.
>>>> As far as I can see, these concerns for the ASF slack have not changed
>>>> since the previous decision.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, could you explain a bit more about what are the
>>> problems
>>>> / drawbacks that you see in the current Flink Slack?
>>>> - I assume having to join too many workspaces counts one
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Xintong
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/n43r4qmwprhdmzrj494dbbwr9w7bbdcv
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 4:51 PM Martijn Visser <
>> martijnvisser@apache.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If you click on the link from Beam via an incognito window/logged out
>>> of
>>>>> Slack, you will be prompted to provide the workspace URL of the ASF.
>> If
>>>> you
>>>>> do that, you're prompted for a login screen or you can create an
>>> account.
>>>>> Creating an account prompts you to have an @apache.org email
>> address.
>>>> See
>>>>> https://imgur.com/a/jXvr5Ai
>>>>>
>>>>> So for me that's a -1 for switching to the ASF workspace.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 10:52 PM Austin Bennett <au...@apache.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> +1 to leveraging the larger ASF Community/Resources Slack Channel
>>>> rather
>>>>>> than an independant one ... ASSUMING ANYONE CAN JOIN [ so that
>> needs
>>> to
>>>>> be
>>>>>> verified ].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 9:05 AM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> There is a way to work around the invite issue. For example, the
>>> Beam
>>>>>>> project has a direct invite link which sends you to the #beam
>>> channel:
>>>>>>> https://app.slack.com/client/T4S1WH2J3/C9H0YNP3P I'm not 100%
>> sure
>>>>>>> whether
>>>>>>> this link actually works. I've take it from:
>>>>>>> https://beam.apache.org/community/join-beam/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Max
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 1:48 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Max,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wonder how that has played out since the creation of the
>> Slack
>>>>>>>> workspace? I haven't been following the Slack communication.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think it has primarily played a role next to the existing User
>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>> list: lots of user questions. There were maybe a handful of
>>>>>>> conversations
>>>>>>>> where the result of the conversation was a request to open a
>> Jira,
>>>>>>> create a
>>>>>>>> FLIP or open up a discussion on the Dev list.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
>>>>>>>> straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from
>>>>> joining.
>>>>>>>> That's only possible to use for those with an @apache.org
>> e-mail
>>>>>>> address,
>>>>>>>> see https://infra.apache.org/slack.html. Anyone else would need
>>> to
>>>> be
>>>>>>>> invited by a committer, but I wouldn't be in favour of needing
>> to
>>>>> spend
>>>>>>>> committers time in adding/inviting members on an ASF Slack
>>> instance.
>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Martijn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 12:33 PM Maximilian Michels <
>>> mxm@apache.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hey Martijn, hi Chesnay,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users
>>> can
>>>>> join
>>>>>>>>> any Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is one of the main motivations for proposing to move to
>> the
>>>> ASF
>>>>>>>>> Slack. We can create an unlimited number of "flink-XY" channels
>>> in
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> ASF
>>>>>>>>> Slack, although one or two are probably all we need. It seems
>>>> logical
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> we share the Slack workspace, just like the other
>> infrastructure
>>>> like
>>>>>>> JIRA,
>>>>>>>>> mail, Jenkins, web server, etc. I guess I'm just in too many
>>> Slack
>>>>>>>>> workspaces already.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  From an ASF standpoint, I think it would be desirable to
>> channel
>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>> into the main workspace to promote the software foundation.
>> Also,
>>>> the
>>>>>>> main
>>>>>>>>> point of communication should still be the mailing lists. I
>>> wonder
>>>>> how
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> has played out since the creation of the Slack workspace? I
>>> haven't
>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>> following the Slack communication.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not to mention that non-committers need to be invited by an
>> ASF
>>>>> Slack
>>>>>>>>> user to be able to join.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
>>>>>>>>> straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from
>>>>>>> joining.
>>>>>>>>> Linen is pretty nice, especially for making Slack searchable
>> via
>>>>> search
>>>>>>>>> engines.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -Max
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:44 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>>>> chesnay@apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> According to Robert linen is supposed to show the entire
>>> history.
>>>>>>>>>> On 03/11/2022 14:27, Martijn Visser wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Addition: I'm not sure if Linen actually provides the
>> messages
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>> older, but I can't test that since we've only recently
>>>> integrated
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Max,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>   From my experience, most ASF projects actually don't use
>> the
>>>>>>> official
>>>>>>>>>>>> Slack, but their own instance. That has happened with
>>> Airflow,
>>>>>>>>>> Iceberg,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hudi etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that
>> users
>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>> join any
>>>>>>>>>>>> Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink. Not to
>>> mention
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack user to
>> be
>>>> able
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> join.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The problem with the history is mitigated by using the
>>> service
>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>> Linen
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.linen.dev/s/apache-flink
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I prefer the current Slack instance of the ASF one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Martijn
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:14 PM Maximilian Michels <
>>>>> mxm@apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A while ago the Flink community decided to create a Slack
>>>>>>> workspace
>>>>>>>>>> [1]. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder, is there a particular reason why we created our
>> own
>>>>> Slack
>>>>>>>>>>>>> workspace
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and do not use the official ASF Slack [2]? It looks like
>>> most
>>>>> ASF
>>>>>>>>>> projects
>>>>>>>>>>>>> use the official Slack. Using the official Slack makes
>>>>>>> collaboration
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other projects easier but it also comes with additional
>>>>> benefits,
>>>>>>>>>> e.g.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> free
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unlimited history (our current workspace suffers from
>>> limited
>>>>>>>>>> history).
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since the vote thread[1] mentioned a re-evaluation of the
>>>>> decision
>>>>>>>>>> until
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the end of 2022, I'd like to propose to move our channels
>> to
>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> official
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ASF Slack workspace. In my eyes, the dedicated workspace
>> is
>>> a
>>>>> bit
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> overkill and we're better off joining the rest of the ASF
>>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>>>>> Let
>>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know what you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Max
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/j2kdh3zx6rrb49mz5n2vb06g2knogxdj
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [2] https://infra.apache.org/slack.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>>> https://github.com/knaufk
>>>

Re: ASF Slack

Posted by Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>.

It was discussed at the latest Apachecon conference by Infra during one of
the lightning talks. If I recall correctly, it was primarily turned to
invite-only due to spam. But definitely good to validate that.

On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 11:09 AM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org> wrote:

> The registration problem should be solvable. Maybe it is due to the Slack
> pricing model that the ASF Slack is invite-only. I'll ping the community
> mailing list.
>
> Have these issues at any point been discussed with the ASF? I feel like
> this is one of the examples where a community spins off to do its own thing
> instead of working together with the foundation.
>
> -Max
>
> On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 10:46 AM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I agree with Xintong in the sense that I don't see what has changed since
> > the original decision on this topic. In my opinion, there is a high cost
> in
> > moving to ASF now, namely I fear we will loose many of the >1200 members
> > and the momentum that I see in the workspace. To me there would need to
> be
> > strong reason for reverting this decision now.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Kosntantin
> >
> > Am Di., 8. Nov. 2022 um 10:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
> > tonysong820@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > Hi Max,
> > >
> > > Thanks for bringing this up. I'm open to a re-evaluation of the Slack
> > > usages.
> > >
> > > In the initial discussion for creating the Slack workspace [1],
> > leveraging
> > > the ASF Slack was indeed brought up as an alternative by many folks. I
> > > think we have chosen a dedicated Flink Slack over the ASF Slack mainly
> > for
> > > two reasons.
> > > - ASF Slack is limited to people with an @apache.org email address
> > > - With a dedicated Flink Slack, we have the full authority to manage
> and
> > > customize it. E.g., archiving / removing improper channels, reporting
> the
> > > build and benchmark reports to channels, subscribing and re-post Flink
> > blog
> > > posts.
> > > As far as I can see, these concerns for the ASF slack have not changed
> > > since the previous decision.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, could you explain a bit more about what are the
> > problems
> > > / drawbacks that you see in the current Flink Slack?
> > > - I assume having to join too many workspaces counts one
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Xintong
> > >
> > >
> > > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/n43r4qmwprhdmzrj494dbbwr9w7bbdcv
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 4:51 PM Martijn Visser <
> martijnvisser@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > If you click on the link from Beam via an incognito window/logged out
> > of
> > > > Slack, you will be prompted to provide the workspace URL of the ASF.
> If
> > > you
> > > > do that, you're prompted for a login screen or you can create an
> > account.
> > > > Creating an account prompts you to have an @apache.org email
> address.
> > > See
> > > > https://imgur.com/a/jXvr5Ai
> > > >
> > > > So for me that's a -1 for switching to the ASF workspace.
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 10:52 PM Austin Bennett <au...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > +1 to leveraging the larger ASF Community/Resources Slack Channel
> > > rather
> > > > > than an independant one ... ASSUMING ANYONE CAN JOIN [ so that
> needs
> > to
> > > > be
> > > > > verified ].
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 9:05 AM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> There is a way to work around the invite issue. For example, the
> > Beam
> > > > >> project has a direct invite link which sends you to the #beam
> > channel:
> > > > >> https://app.slack.com/client/T4S1WH2J3/C9H0YNP3P I'm not 100%
> sure
> > > > >> whether
> > > > >> this link actually works. I've take it from:
> > > > >> https://beam.apache.org/community/join-beam/
> > > > >>
> > > > >> -Max
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 1:48 PM Martijn Visser <
> > > martijnvisser@apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > Hi Max,
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > I wonder how that has played out since the creation of the
> Slack
> > > > >> > workspace? I haven't been following the Slack communication.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > I think it has primarily played a role next to the existing User
> > > > mailing
> > > > >> > list: lots of user questions. There were maybe a handful of
> > > > >> conversations
> > > > >> > where the result of the conversation was a request to open a
> Jira,
> > > > >> create a
> > > > >> > FLIP or open up a discussion on the Dev list.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
> > > > >> > straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from
> > > > joining.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > That's only possible to use for those with an @apache.org
> e-mail
> > > > >> address,
> > > > >> > see https://infra.apache.org/slack.html. Anyone else would need
> > to
> > > be
> > > > >> > invited by a committer, but I wouldn't be in favour of needing
> to
> > > > spend
> > > > >> > committers time in adding/inviting members on an ASF Slack
> > instance.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Best regards,
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Martijn
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 12:33 PM Maximilian Michels <
> > mxm@apache.org>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >> Hey Martijn, hi Chesnay,
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> >The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users
> > can
> > > > join
> > > > >> >> any Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> That is one of the main motivations for proposing to move to
> the
> > > ASF
> > > > >> >> Slack. We can create an unlimited number of "flink-XY" channels
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > >> ASF
> > > > >> >> Slack, although one or two are probably all we need. It seems
> > > logical
> > > > >> that
> > > > >> >> we share the Slack workspace, just like the other
> infrastructure
> > > like
> > > > >> JIRA,
> > > > >> >> mail, Jenkins, web server, etc. I guess I'm just in too many
> > Slack
> > > > >> >> workspaces already.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> From an ASF standpoint, I think it would be desirable to
> channel
> > > > people
> > > > >> >> into the main workspace to promote the software foundation.
> Also,
> > > the
> > > > >> main
> > > > >> >> point of communication should still be the mailing lists. I
> > wonder
> > > > how
> > > > >> that
> > > > >> >> has played out since the creation of the Slack workspace? I
> > haven't
> > > > >> been
> > > > >> >> following the Slack communication.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> >Not to mention that non-committers need to be invited by an
> ASF
> > > > Slack
> > > > >> >> user to be able to join.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
> > > > >> >> straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from
> > > > >> joining.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> Linen is pretty nice, especially for making Slack searchable
> via
> > > > search
> > > > >> >> engines.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> -Max
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:44 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> > > chesnay@apache.org>
> > > > >> >> wrote:
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >>> According to Robert linen is supposed to show the entire
> > history.
> > > > >> >>>
> > > > >> >>> On 03/11/2022 14:27, Martijn Visser wrote:
> > > > >> >>> > Addition: I'm not sure if Linen actually provides the
> messages
> > > > that
> > > > >> are
> > > > >> >>> > older, but I can't test that since we've only recently
> > > integrated
> > > > >> it.
> > > > >> >>> >
> > > > >> >>> > On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Martijn Visser <
> > > > >> >>> martijnvisser@apache.org>
> > > > >> >>> > wrote:
> > > > >> >>> >
> > > > >> >>> >> Hi Max,
> > > > >> >>> >>
> > > > >> >>> >>  From my experience, most ASF projects actually don't use
> the
> > > > >> official
> > > > >> >>> >> Slack, but their own instance. That has happened with
> > Airflow,
> > > > >> >>> Iceberg,
> > > > >> >>> >> Hudi etc.
> > > > >> >>> >> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that
> users
> > > can
> > > > >> >>> join any
> > > > >> >>> >> Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink. Not to
> > mention
> > > > that
> > > > >> >>> >> non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack user to
> be
> > > able
> > > > >> to
> > > > >> >>> join.
> > > > >> >>> >> The problem with the history is mitigated by using the
> > service
> > > > from
> > > > >> >>> Linen
> > > > >> >>> >> https://www.linen.dev/s/apache-flink
> > > > >> >>> >>
> > > > >> >>> >> I prefer the current Slack instance of the ASF one.
> > > > >> >>> >>
> > > > >> >>> >> Thanks,
> > > > >> >>> >>
> > > > >> >>> >> Martijn
> > > > >> >>> >>
> > > > >> >>> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:14 PM Maximilian Michels <
> > > > mxm@apache.org>
> > > > >> >>> wrote:
> > > > >> >>> >>
> > > > >> >>> >>> Hi,
> > > > >> >>> >>>
> > > > >> >>> >>> A while ago the Flink community decided to create a Slack
> > > > >> workspace
> > > > >> >>> [1]. I
> > > > >> >>> >>> wonder, is there a particular reason why we created our
> own
> > > > Slack
> > > > >> >>> >>> workspace
> > > > >> >>> >>> and do not use the official ASF Slack [2]? It looks like
> > most
> > > > ASF
> > > > >> >>> projects
> > > > >> >>> >>> use the official Slack. Using the official Slack makes
> > > > >> collaboration
> > > > >> >>> with
> > > > >> >>> >>> other projects easier but it also comes with additional
> > > > benefits,
> > > > >> >>> e.g.
> > > > >> >>> >>> free
> > > > >> >>> >>> unlimited history (our current workspace suffers from
> > limited
> > > > >> >>> history).
> > > > >> >>> >>>
> > > > >> >>> >>> Since the vote thread[1] mentioned a re-evaluation of the
> > > > decision
> > > > >> >>> until
> > > > >> >>> >>> the end of 2022, I'd like to propose to move our channels
> to
> > > the
> > > > >> >>> official
> > > > >> >>> >>> ASF Slack workspace. In my eyes, the dedicated workspace
> is
> > a
> > > > bit
> > > > >> of
> > > > >> >>> an
> > > > >> >>> >>> overkill and we're better off joining the rest of the ASF
> > > > >> community.
> > > > >> >>> Let
> > > > >> >>> >>> me
> > > > >> >>> >>> know what you think.
> > > > >> >>> >>>
> > > > >> >>> >>> -Max
> > > > >> >>> >>>
> > > > >> >>> >>> [1]
> > > > >> https://lists.apache.org/thread/j2kdh3zx6rrb49mz5n2vb06g2knogxdj
> > > > >> >>> >>> [2] https://infra.apache.org/slack.html
> > > > >> >>> >>>
> > > > >> >>>
> > > > >> >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > https://twitter.com/snntrable
> > https://github.com/knaufk
> >
>

Re: ASF Slack

Posted by Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>.

The registration problem should be solvable. Maybe it is due to the Slack
pricing model that the ASF Slack is invite-only. I'll ping the community
mailing list.

Have these issues at any point been discussed with the ASF? I feel like
this is one of the examples where a community spins off to do its own thing
instead of working together with the foundation.

-Max

On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 10:46 AM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I agree with Xintong in the sense that I don't see what has changed since
> the original decision on this topic. In my opinion, there is a high cost in
> moving to ASF now, namely I fear we will loose many of the >1200 members
> and the momentum that I see in the workspace. To me there would need to be
> strong reason for reverting this decision now.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kosntantin
>
> Am Di., 8. Nov. 2022 um 10:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
>
> > Hi Max,
> >
> > Thanks for bringing this up. I'm open to a re-evaluation of the Slack
> > usages.
> >
> > In the initial discussion for creating the Slack workspace [1],
> leveraging
> > the ASF Slack was indeed brought up as an alternative by many folks. I
> > think we have chosen a dedicated Flink Slack over the ASF Slack mainly
> for
> > two reasons.
> > - ASF Slack is limited to people with an @apache.org email address
> > - With a dedicated Flink Slack, we have the full authority to manage and
> > customize it. E.g., archiving / removing improper channels, reporting the
> > build and benchmark reports to channels, subscribing and re-post Flink
> blog
> > posts.
> > As far as I can see, these concerns for the ASF slack have not changed
> > since the previous decision.
> >
> > On the other hand, could you explain a bit more about what are the
> problems
> > / drawbacks that you see in the current Flink Slack?
> > - I assume having to join too many workspaces counts one
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Xintong
> >
> >
> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/n43r4qmwprhdmzrj494dbbwr9w7bbdcv
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 4:51 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > If you click on the link from Beam via an incognito window/logged out
> of
> > > Slack, you will be prompted to provide the workspace URL of the ASF. If
> > you
> > > do that, you're prompted for a login screen or you can create an
> account.
> > > Creating an account prompts you to have an @apache.org email address.
> > See
> > > https://imgur.com/a/jXvr5Ai
> > >
> > > So for me that's a -1 for switching to the ASF workspace.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 10:52 PM Austin Bennett <au...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1 to leveraging the larger ASF Community/Resources Slack Channel
> > rather
> > > > than an independant one ... ASSUMING ANYONE CAN JOIN [ so that needs
> to
> > > be
> > > > verified ].
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 9:05 AM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> There is a way to work around the invite issue. For example, the
> Beam
> > > >> project has a direct invite link which sends you to the #beam
> channel:
> > > >> https://app.slack.com/client/T4S1WH2J3/C9H0YNP3P I'm not 100% sure
> > > >> whether
> > > >> this link actually works. I've take it from:
> > > >> https://beam.apache.org/community/join-beam/
> > > >>
> > > >> -Max
> > > >>
> > > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 1:48 PM Martijn Visser <
> > martijnvisser@apache.org
> > > >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > Hi Max,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > I wonder how that has played out since the creation of the Slack
> > > >> > workspace? I haven't been following the Slack communication.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I think it has primarily played a role next to the existing User
> > > mailing
> > > >> > list: lots of user questions. There were maybe a handful of
> > > >> conversations
> > > >> > where the result of the conversation was a request to open a Jira,
> > > >> create a
> > > >> > FLIP or open up a discussion on the Dev list.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
> > > >> > straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from
> > > joining.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > That's only possible to use for those with an @apache.org e-mail
> > > >> address,
> > > >> > see https://infra.apache.org/slack.html. Anyone else would need
> to
> > be
> > > >> > invited by a committer, but I wouldn't be in favour of needing to
> > > spend
> > > >> > committers time in adding/inviting members on an ASF Slack
> instance.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Best regards,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Martijn
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 12:33 PM Maximilian Michels <
> mxm@apache.org>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> >> Hey Martijn, hi Chesnay,
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> >The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users
> can
> > > join
> > > >> >> any Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> That is one of the main motivations for proposing to move to the
> > ASF
> > > >> >> Slack. We can create an unlimited number of "flink-XY" channels
> in
> > > the
> > > >> ASF
> > > >> >> Slack, although one or two are probably all we need. It seems
> > logical
> > > >> that
> > > >> >> we share the Slack workspace, just like the other infrastructure
> > like
> > > >> JIRA,
> > > >> >> mail, Jenkins, web server, etc. I guess I'm just in too many
> Slack
> > > >> >> workspaces already.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> From an ASF standpoint, I think it would be desirable to channel
> > > people
> > > >> >> into the main workspace to promote the software foundation. Also,
> > the
> > > >> main
> > > >> >> point of communication should still be the mailing lists. I
> wonder
> > > how
> > > >> that
> > > >> >> has played out since the creation of the Slack workspace? I
> haven't
> > > >> been
> > > >> >> following the Slack communication.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> >Not to mention that non-committers need to be invited by an ASF
> > > Slack
> > > >> >> user to be able to join.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
> > > >> >> straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from
> > > >> joining.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Linen is pretty nice, especially for making Slack searchable via
> > > search
> > > >> >> engines.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> -Max
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:44 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> > chesnay@apache.org>
> > > >> >> wrote:
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>> According to Robert linen is supposed to show the entire
> history.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> On 03/11/2022 14:27, Martijn Visser wrote:
> > > >> >>> > Addition: I'm not sure if Linen actually provides the messages
> > > that
> > > >> are
> > > >> >>> > older, but I can't test that since we've only recently
> > integrated
> > > >> it.
> > > >> >>> >
> > > >> >>> > On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Martijn Visser <
> > > >> >>> martijnvisser@apache.org>
> > > >> >>> > wrote:
> > > >> >>> >
> > > >> >>> >> Hi Max,
> > > >> >>> >>
> > > >> >>> >>  From my experience, most ASF projects actually don't use the
> > > >> official
> > > >> >>> >> Slack, but their own instance. That has happened with
> Airflow,
> > > >> >>> Iceberg,
> > > >> >>> >> Hudi etc.
> > > >> >>> >> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users
> > can
> > > >> >>> join any
> > > >> >>> >> Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink. Not to
> mention
> > > that
> > > >> >>> >> non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack user to be
> > able
> > > >> to
> > > >> >>> join.
> > > >> >>> >> The problem with the history is mitigated by using the
> service
> > > from
> > > >> >>> Linen
> > > >> >>> >> https://www.linen.dev/s/apache-flink
> > > >> >>> >>
> > > >> >>> >> I prefer the current Slack instance of the ASF one.
> > > >> >>> >>
> > > >> >>> >> Thanks,
> > > >> >>> >>
> > > >> >>> >> Martijn
> > > >> >>> >>
> > > >> >>> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:14 PM Maximilian Michels <
> > > mxm@apache.org>
> > > >> >>> wrote:
> > > >> >>> >>
> > > >> >>> >>> Hi,
> > > >> >>> >>>
> > > >> >>> >>> A while ago the Flink community decided to create a Slack
> > > >> workspace
> > > >> >>> [1]. I
> > > >> >>> >>> wonder, is there a particular reason why we created our own
> > > Slack
> > > >> >>> >>> workspace
> > > >> >>> >>> and do not use the official ASF Slack [2]? It looks like
> most
> > > ASF
> > > >> >>> projects
> > > >> >>> >>> use the official Slack. Using the official Slack makes
> > > >> collaboration
> > > >> >>> with
> > > >> >>> >>> other projects easier but it also comes with additional
> > > benefits,
> > > >> >>> e.g.
> > > >> >>> >>> free
> > > >> >>> >>> unlimited history (our current workspace suffers from
> limited
> > > >> >>> history).
> > > >> >>> >>>
> > > >> >>> >>> Since the vote thread[1] mentioned a re-evaluation of the
> > > decision
> > > >> >>> until
> > > >> >>> >>> the end of 2022, I'd like to propose to move our channels to
> > the
> > > >> >>> official
> > > >> >>> >>> ASF Slack workspace. In my eyes, the dedicated workspace is
> a
> > > bit
> > > >> of
> > > >> >>> an
> > > >> >>> >>> overkill and we're better off joining the rest of the ASF
> > > >> community.
> > > >> >>> Let
> > > >> >>> >>> me
> > > >> >>> >>> know what you think.
> > > >> >>> >>>
> > > >> >>> >>> -Max
> > > >> >>> >>>
> > > >> >>> >>> [1]
> > > >> https://lists.apache.org/thread/j2kdh3zx6rrb49mz5n2vb06g2knogxdj
> > > >> >>> >>> [2] https://infra.apache.org/slack.html
> > > >> >>> >>>
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> --
> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> https://github.com/knaufk
>

Re: ASF Slack

Posted by Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>.

Hi everyone,

I agree with Xintong in the sense that I don't see what has changed since
the original decision on this topic. In my opinion, there is a high cost in
moving to ASF now, namely I fear we will loose many of the >1200 members
and the momentum that I see in the workspace. To me there would need to be
strong reason for reverting this decision now.

Cheers,

Kosntantin

Am Di., 8. Nov. 2022 um 10:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
tonysong820@gmail.com>:

> Hi Max,
>
> Thanks for bringing this up. I'm open to a re-evaluation of the Slack
> usages.
>
> In the initial discussion for creating the Slack workspace [1], leveraging
> the ASF Slack was indeed brought up as an alternative by many folks. I
> think we have chosen a dedicated Flink Slack over the ASF Slack mainly for
> two reasons.
> - ASF Slack is limited to people with an @apache.org email address
> - With a dedicated Flink Slack, we have the full authority to manage and
> customize it. E.g., archiving / removing improper channels, reporting the
> build and benchmark reports to channels, subscribing and re-post Flink blog
> posts.
> As far as I can see, these concerns for the ASF slack have not changed
> since the previous decision.
>
> On the other hand, could you explain a bit more about what are the problems
> / drawbacks that you see in the current Flink Slack?
> - I assume having to join too many workspaces counts one
>
> Best,
>
> Xintong
>
>
> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/n43r4qmwprhdmzrj494dbbwr9w7bbdcv
>
> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 4:51 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > If you click on the link from Beam via an incognito window/logged out of
> > Slack, you will be prompted to provide the workspace URL of the ASF. If
> you
> > do that, you're prompted for a login screen or you can create an account.
> > Creating an account prompts you to have an @apache.org email address.
> See
> > https://imgur.com/a/jXvr5Ai
> >
> > So for me that's a -1 for switching to the ASF workspace.
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 10:52 PM Austin Bennett <au...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > > +1 to leveraging the larger ASF Community/Resources Slack Channel
> rather
> > > than an independant one ... ASSUMING ANYONE CAN JOIN [ so that needs to
> > be
> > > verified ].
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 9:05 AM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> There is a way to work around the invite issue. For example, the Beam
> > >> project has a direct invite link which sends you to the #beam channel:
> > >> https://app.slack.com/client/T4S1WH2J3/C9H0YNP3P I'm not 100% sure
> > >> whether
> > >> this link actually works. I've take it from:
> > >> https://beam.apache.org/community/join-beam/
> > >>
> > >> -Max
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 1:48 PM Martijn Visser <
> martijnvisser@apache.org
> > >
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Hi Max,
> > >> >
> > >> > > I wonder how that has played out since the creation of the Slack
> > >> > workspace? I haven't been following the Slack communication.
> > >> >
> > >> > I think it has primarily played a role next to the existing User
> > mailing
> > >> > list: lots of user questions. There were maybe a handful of
> > >> conversations
> > >> > where the result of the conversation was a request to open a Jira,
> > >> create a
> > >> > FLIP or open up a discussion on the Dev list.
> > >> >
> > >> > > There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
> > >> > straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from
> > joining.
> > >> >
> > >> > That's only possible to use for those with an @apache.org e-mail
> > >> address,
> > >> > see https://infra.apache.org/slack.html. Anyone else would need to
> be
> > >> > invited by a committer, but I wouldn't be in favour of needing to
> > spend
> > >> > committers time in adding/inviting members on an ASF Slack instance.
> > >> >
> > >> > Best regards,
> > >> >
> > >> > Martijn
> > >> >
> > >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 12:33 PM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> Hey Martijn, hi Chesnay,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users can
> > join
> > >> >> any Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> That is one of the main motivations for proposing to move to the
> ASF
> > >> >> Slack. We can create an unlimited number of "flink-XY" channels in
> > the
> > >> ASF
> > >> >> Slack, although one or two are probably all we need. It seems
> logical
> > >> that
> > >> >> we share the Slack workspace, just like the other infrastructure
> like
> > >> JIRA,
> > >> >> mail, Jenkins, web server, etc. I guess I'm just in too many Slack
> > >> >> workspaces already.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> From an ASF standpoint, I think it would be desirable to channel
> > people
> > >> >> into the main workspace to promote the software foundation. Also,
> the
> > >> main
> > >> >> point of communication should still be the mailing lists. I wonder
> > how
> > >> that
> > >> >> has played out since the creation of the Slack workspace? I haven't
> > >> been
> > >> >> following the Slack communication.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >Not to mention that non-committers need to be invited by an ASF
> > Slack
> > >> >> user to be able to join.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
> > >> >> straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from
> > >> joining.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Linen is pretty nice, especially for making Slack searchable via
> > search
> > >> >> engines.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> -Max
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:44 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> chesnay@apache.org>
> > >> >> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> According to Robert linen is supposed to show the entire history.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> On 03/11/2022 14:27, Martijn Visser wrote:
> > >> >>> > Addition: I'm not sure if Linen actually provides the messages
> > that
> > >> are
> > >> >>> > older, but I can't test that since we've only recently
> integrated
> > >> it.
> > >> >>> >
> > >> >>> > On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Martijn Visser <
> > >> >>> martijnvisser@apache.org>
> > >> >>> > wrote:
> > >> >>> >
> > >> >>> >> Hi Max,
> > >> >>> >>
> > >> >>> >>  From my experience, most ASF projects actually don't use the
> > >> official
> > >> >>> >> Slack, but their own instance. That has happened with Airflow,
> > >> >>> Iceberg,
> > >> >>> >> Hudi etc.
> > >> >>> >> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users
> can
> > >> >>> join any
> > >> >>> >> Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink. Not to mention
> > that
> > >> >>> >> non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack user to be
> able
> > >> to
> > >> >>> join.
> > >> >>> >> The problem with the history is mitigated by using the service
> > from
> > >> >>> Linen
> > >> >>> >> https://www.linen.dev/s/apache-flink
> > >> >>> >>
> > >> >>> >> I prefer the current Slack instance of the ASF one.
> > >> >>> >>
> > >> >>> >> Thanks,
> > >> >>> >>
> > >> >>> >> Martijn
> > >> >>> >>
> > >> >>> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:14 PM Maximilian Michels <
> > mxm@apache.org>
> > >> >>> wrote:
> > >> >>> >>
> > >> >>> >>> Hi,
> > >> >>> >>>
> > >> >>> >>> A while ago the Flink community decided to create a Slack
> > >> workspace
> > >> >>> [1]. I
> > >> >>> >>> wonder, is there a particular reason why we created our own
> > Slack
> > >> >>> >>> workspace
> > >> >>> >>> and do not use the official ASF Slack [2]? It looks like most
> > ASF
> > >> >>> projects
> > >> >>> >>> use the official Slack. Using the official Slack makes
> > >> collaboration
> > >> >>> with
> > >> >>> >>> other projects easier but it also comes with additional
> > benefits,
> > >> >>> e.g.
> > >> >>> >>> free
> > >> >>> >>> unlimited history (our current workspace suffers from limited
> > >> >>> history).
> > >> >>> >>>
> > >> >>> >>> Since the vote thread[1] mentioned a re-evaluation of the
> > decision
> > >> >>> until
> > >> >>> >>> the end of 2022, I'd like to propose to move our channels to
> the
> > >> >>> official
> > >> >>> >>> ASF Slack workspace. In my eyes, the dedicated workspace is a
> > bit
> > >> of
> > >> >>> an
> > >> >>> >>> overkill and we're better off joining the rest of the ASF
> > >> community.
> > >> >>> Let
> > >> >>> >>> me
> > >> >>> >>> know what you think.
> > >> >>> >>>
> > >> >>> >>> -Max
> > >> >>> >>>
> > >> >>> >>> [1]
> > >> https://lists.apache.org/thread/j2kdh3zx6rrb49mz5n2vb06g2knogxdj
> > >> >>> >>> [2] https://infra.apache.org/slack.html
> > >> >>> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >>
> > >
> >
>


-- 
https://twitter.com/snntrable
https://github.com/knaufk

Re: ASF Slack

Posted by Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>.

Hi Max,

Thanks for bringing this up. I'm open to a re-evaluation of the Slack
usages.

In the initial discussion for creating the Slack workspace [1], leveraging
the ASF Slack was indeed brought up as an alternative by many folks. I
think we have chosen a dedicated Flink Slack over the ASF Slack mainly for
two reasons.
- ASF Slack is limited to people with an @apache.org email address
- With a dedicated Flink Slack, we have the full authority to manage and
customize it. E.g., archiving / removing improper channels, reporting the
build and benchmark reports to channels, subscribing and re-post Flink blog
posts.
As far as I can see, these concerns for the ASF slack have not changed
since the previous decision.

On the other hand, could you explain a bit more about what are the problems
/ drawbacks that you see in the current Flink Slack?
- I assume having to join too many workspaces counts one

Best,

Xintong


[1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/n43r4qmwprhdmzrj494dbbwr9w7bbdcv

On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 4:51 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
wrote:

> If you click on the link from Beam via an incognito window/logged out of
> Slack, you will be prompted to provide the workspace URL of the ASF. If you
> do that, you're prompted for a login screen or you can create an account.
> Creating an account prompts you to have an @apache.org email address. See
> https://imgur.com/a/jXvr5Ai
>
> So for me that's a -1 for switching to the ASF workspace.
>
> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 10:52 PM Austin Bennett <au...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > +1 to leveraging the larger ASF Community/Resources Slack Channel rather
> > than an independant one ... ASSUMING ANYONE CAN JOIN [ so that needs to
> be
> > verified ].
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 9:05 AM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >> There is a way to work around the invite issue. For example, the Beam
> >> project has a direct invite link which sends you to the #beam channel:
> >> https://app.slack.com/client/T4S1WH2J3/C9H0YNP3P I'm not 100% sure
> >> whether
> >> this link actually works. I've take it from:
> >> https://beam.apache.org/community/join-beam/
> >>
> >> -Max
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 1:48 PM Martijn Visser <martijnvisser@apache.org
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hi Max,
> >> >
> >> > > I wonder how that has played out since the creation of the Slack
> >> > workspace? I haven't been following the Slack communication.
> >> >
> >> > I think it has primarily played a role next to the existing User
> mailing
> >> > list: lots of user questions. There were maybe a handful of
> >> conversations
> >> > where the result of the conversation was a request to open a Jira,
> >> create a
> >> > FLIP or open up a discussion on the Dev list.
> >> >
> >> > > There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
> >> > straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from
> joining.
> >> >
> >> > That's only possible to use for those with an @apache.org e-mail
> >> address,
> >> > see https://infra.apache.org/slack.html. Anyone else would need to be
> >> > invited by a committer, but I wouldn't be in favour of needing to
> spend
> >> > committers time in adding/inviting members on an ASF Slack instance.
> >> >
> >> > Best regards,
> >> >
> >> > Martijn
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 12:33 PM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hey Martijn, hi Chesnay,
> >> >>
> >> >> >The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users can
> join
> >> >> any Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink.
> >> >>
> >> >> That is one of the main motivations for proposing to move to the ASF
> >> >> Slack. We can create an unlimited number of "flink-XY" channels in
> the
> >> ASF
> >> >> Slack, although one or two are probably all we need. It seems logical
> >> that
> >> >> we share the Slack workspace, just like the other infrastructure like
> >> JIRA,
> >> >> mail, Jenkins, web server, etc. I guess I'm just in too many Slack
> >> >> workspaces already.
> >> >>
> >> >> From an ASF standpoint, I think it would be desirable to channel
> people
> >> >> into the main workspace to promote the software foundation. Also, the
> >> main
> >> >> point of communication should still be the mailing lists. I wonder
> how
> >> that
> >> >> has played out since the creation of the Slack workspace? I haven't
> >> been
> >> >> following the Slack communication.
> >> >>
> >> >> >Not to mention that non-committers need to be invited by an ASF
> Slack
> >> >> user to be able to join.
> >> >>
> >> >> There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
> >> >> straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from
> >> joining.
> >> >>
> >> >> Linen is pretty nice, especially for making Slack searchable via
> search
> >> >> engines.
> >> >>
> >> >> -Max
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:44 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> According to Robert linen is supposed to show the entire history.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On 03/11/2022 14:27, Martijn Visser wrote:
> >> >>> > Addition: I'm not sure if Linen actually provides the messages
> that
> >> are
> >> >>> > older, but I can't test that since we've only recently integrated
> >> it.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Martijn Visser <
> >> >>> martijnvisser@apache.org>
> >> >>> > wrote:
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >> Hi Max,
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>  From my experience, most ASF projects actually don't use the
> >> official
> >> >>> >> Slack, but their own instance. That has happened with Airflow,
> >> >>> Iceberg,
> >> >>> >> Hudi etc.
> >> >>> >> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users can
> >> >>> join any
> >> >>> >> Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink. Not to mention
> that
> >> >>> >> non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack user to be able
> >> to
> >> >>> join.
> >> >>> >> The problem with the history is mitigated by using the service
> from
> >> >>> Linen
> >> >>> >> https://www.linen.dev/s/apache-flink
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> I prefer the current Slack instance of the ASF one.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> Thanks,
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> Martijn
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:14 PM Maximilian Michels <
> mxm@apache.org>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>> Hi,
> >> >>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> A while ago the Flink community decided to create a Slack
> >> workspace
> >> >>> [1]. I
> >> >>> >>> wonder, is there a particular reason why we created our own
> Slack
> >> >>> >>> workspace
> >> >>> >>> and do not use the official ASF Slack [2]? It looks like most
> ASF
> >> >>> projects
> >> >>> >>> use the official Slack. Using the official Slack makes
> >> collaboration
> >> >>> with
> >> >>> >>> other projects easier but it also comes with additional
> benefits,
> >> >>> e.g.
> >> >>> >>> free
> >> >>> >>> unlimited history (our current workspace suffers from limited
> >> >>> history).
> >> >>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> Since the vote thread[1] mentioned a re-evaluation of the
> decision
> >> >>> until
> >> >>> >>> the end of 2022, I'd like to propose to move our channels to the
> >> >>> official
> >> >>> >>> ASF Slack workspace. In my eyes, the dedicated workspace is a
> bit
> >> of
> >> >>> an
> >> >>> >>> overkill and we're better off joining the rest of the ASF
> >> community.
> >> >>> Let
> >> >>> >>> me
> >> >>> >>> know what you think.
> >> >>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> -Max
> >> >>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> [1]
> >> https://lists.apache.org/thread/j2kdh3zx6rrb49mz5n2vb06g2knogxdj
> >> >>> >>> [2] https://infra.apache.org/slack.html
> >> >>> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >
>

Re: ASF Slack

Posted by Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>.

If you click on the link from Beam via an incognito window/logged out of
Slack, you will be prompted to provide the workspace URL of the ASF. If you
do that, you're prompted for a login screen or you can create an account.
Creating an account prompts you to have an @apache.org email address. See
https://imgur.com/a/jXvr5Ai

So for me that's a -1 for switching to the ASF workspace.

On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 10:52 PM Austin Bennett <au...@apache.org> wrote:

> +1 to leveraging the larger ASF Community/Resources Slack Channel rather
> than an independant one ... ASSUMING ANYONE CAN JOIN [ so that needs to be
> verified ].
>
> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 9:05 AM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> There is a way to work around the invite issue. For example, the Beam
>> project has a direct invite link which sends you to the #beam channel:
>> https://app.slack.com/client/T4S1WH2J3/C9H0YNP3P I'm not 100% sure
>> whether
>> this link actually works. I've take it from:
>> https://beam.apache.org/community/join-beam/
>>
>> -Max
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 1:48 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Max,
>> >
>> > > I wonder how that has played out since the creation of the Slack
>> > workspace? I haven't been following the Slack communication.
>> >
>> > I think it has primarily played a role next to the existing User mailing
>> > list: lots of user questions. There were maybe a handful of
>> conversations
>> > where the result of the conversation was a request to open a Jira,
>> create a
>> > FLIP or open up a discussion on the Dev list.
>> >
>> > > There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
>> > straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from joining.
>> >
>> > That's only possible to use for those with an @apache.org e-mail
>> address,
>> > see https://infra.apache.org/slack.html. Anyone else would need to be
>> > invited by a committer, but I wouldn't be in favour of needing to spend
>> > committers time in adding/inviting members on an ASF Slack instance.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> >
>> > Martijn
>> >
>> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 12:33 PM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hey Martijn, hi Chesnay,
>> >>
>> >> >The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users can join
>> >> any Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink.
>> >>
>> >> That is one of the main motivations for proposing to move to the ASF
>> >> Slack. We can create an unlimited number of "flink-XY" channels in the
>> ASF
>> >> Slack, although one or two are probably all we need. It seems logical
>> that
>> >> we share the Slack workspace, just like the other infrastructure like
>> JIRA,
>> >> mail, Jenkins, web server, etc. I guess I'm just in too many Slack
>> >> workspaces already.
>> >>
>> >> From an ASF standpoint, I think it would be desirable to channel people
>> >> into the main workspace to promote the software foundation. Also, the
>> main
>> >> point of communication should still be the mailing lists. I wonder how
>> that
>> >> has played out since the creation of the Slack workspace? I haven't
>> been
>> >> following the Slack communication.
>> >>
>> >> >Not to mention that non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack
>> >> user to be able to join.
>> >>
>> >> There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
>> >> straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from
>> joining.
>> >>
>> >> Linen is pretty nice, especially for making Slack searchable via search
>> >> engines.
>> >>
>> >> -Max
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:44 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> According to Robert linen is supposed to show the entire history.
>> >>>
>> >>> On 03/11/2022 14:27, Martijn Visser wrote:
>> >>> > Addition: I'm not sure if Linen actually provides the messages that
>> are
>> >>> > older, but I can't test that since we've only recently integrated
>> it.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Martijn Visser <
>> >>> martijnvisser@apache.org>
>> >>> > wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >> Hi Max,
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>  From my experience, most ASF projects actually don't use the
>> official
>> >>> >> Slack, but their own instance. That has happened with Airflow,
>> >>> Iceberg,
>> >>> >> Hudi etc.
>> >>> >> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users can
>> >>> join any
>> >>> >> Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink. Not to mention that
>> >>> >> non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack user to be able
>> to
>> >>> join.
>> >>> >> The problem with the history is mitigated by using the service from
>> >>> Linen
>> >>> >> https://www.linen.dev/s/apache-flink
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> I prefer the current Slack instance of the ASF one.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Thanks,
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Martijn
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:14 PM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> Hi,
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> A while ago the Flink community decided to create a Slack
>> workspace
>> >>> [1]. I
>> >>> >>> wonder, is there a particular reason why we created our own Slack
>> >>> >>> workspace
>> >>> >>> and do not use the official ASF Slack [2]? It looks like most ASF
>> >>> projects
>> >>> >>> use the official Slack. Using the official Slack makes
>> collaboration
>> >>> with
>> >>> >>> other projects easier but it also comes with additional benefits,
>> >>> e.g.
>> >>> >>> free
>> >>> >>> unlimited history (our current workspace suffers from limited
>> >>> history).
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> Since the vote thread[1] mentioned a re-evaluation of the decision
>> >>> until
>> >>> >>> the end of 2022, I'd like to propose to move our channels to the
>> >>> official
>> >>> >>> ASF Slack workspace. In my eyes, the dedicated workspace is a bit
>> of
>> >>> an
>> >>> >>> overkill and we're better off joining the rest of the ASF
>> community.
>> >>> Let
>> >>> >>> me
>> >>> >>> know what you think.
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> -Max
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> [1]
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/j2kdh3zx6rrb49mz5n2vb06g2knogxdj
>> >>> >>> [2] https://infra.apache.org/slack.html
>> >>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>>
>

Re: ASF Slack

Posted by Austin Bennett <au...@apache.org>.

+1 to leveraging the larger ASF Community/Resources Slack Channel rather
than an independant one ... ASSUMING ANYONE CAN JOIN [ so that needs to be
verified ].

On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 9:05 AM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org> wrote:

> There is a way to work around the invite issue. For example, the Beam
> project has a direct invite link which sends you to the #beam channel:
> https://app.slack.com/client/T4S1WH2J3/C9H0YNP3P I'm not 100% sure whether
> this link actually works. I've take it from:
> https://beam.apache.org/community/join-beam/
>
> -Max
>
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 1:48 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Max,
> >
> > > I wonder how that has played out since the creation of the Slack
> > workspace? I haven't been following the Slack communication.
> >
> > I think it has primarily played a role next to the existing User mailing
> > list: lots of user questions. There were maybe a handful of conversations
> > where the result of the conversation was a request to open a Jira,
> create a
> > FLIP or open up a discussion on the Dev list.
> >
> > > There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
> > straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from joining.
> >
> > That's only possible to use for those with an @apache.org e-mail
> address,
> > see https://infra.apache.org/slack.html. Anyone else would need to be
> > invited by a committer, but I wouldn't be in favour of needing to spend
> > committers time in adding/inviting members on an ASF Slack instance.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Martijn
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 12:33 PM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hey Martijn, hi Chesnay,
> >>
> >> >The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users can join
> >> any Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink.
> >>
> >> That is one of the main motivations for proposing to move to the ASF
> >> Slack. We can create an unlimited number of "flink-XY" channels in the
> ASF
> >> Slack, although one or two are probably all we need. It seems logical
> that
> >> we share the Slack workspace, just like the other infrastructure like
> JIRA,
> >> mail, Jenkins, web server, etc. I guess I'm just in too many Slack
> >> workspaces already.
> >>
> >> From an ASF standpoint, I think it would be desirable to channel people
> >> into the main workspace to promote the software foundation. Also, the
> main
> >> point of communication should still be the mailing lists. I wonder how
> that
> >> has played out since the creation of the Slack workspace? I haven't been
> >> following the Slack communication.
> >>
> >> >Not to mention that non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack
> >> user to be able to join.
> >>
> >> There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
> >> straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from joining.
> >>
> >> Linen is pretty nice, especially for making Slack searchable via search
> >> engines.
> >>
> >> -Max
> >>
> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:44 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> According to Robert linen is supposed to show the entire history.
> >>>
> >>> On 03/11/2022 14:27, Martijn Visser wrote:
> >>> > Addition: I'm not sure if Linen actually provides the messages that
> are
> >>> > older, but I can't test that since we've only recently integrated it.
> >>> >
> >>> > On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Martijn Visser <
> >>> martijnvisser@apache.org>
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> Hi Max,
> >>> >>
> >>> >>  From my experience, most ASF projects actually don't use the
> official
> >>> >> Slack, but their own instance. That has happened with Airflow,
> >>> Iceberg,
> >>> >> Hudi etc.
> >>> >> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users can
> >>> join any
> >>> >> Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink. Not to mention that
> >>> >> non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack user to be able to
> >>> join.
> >>> >> The problem with the history is mitigated by using the service from
> >>> Linen
> >>> >> https://www.linen.dev/s/apache-flink
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I prefer the current Slack instance of the ASF one.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Thanks,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Martijn
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:14 PM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> Hi,
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> A while ago the Flink community decided to create a Slack workspace
> >>> [1]. I
> >>> >>> wonder, is there a particular reason why we created our own Slack
> >>> >>> workspace
> >>> >>> and do not use the official ASF Slack [2]? It looks like most ASF
> >>> projects
> >>> >>> use the official Slack. Using the official Slack makes
> collaboration
> >>> with
> >>> >>> other projects easier but it also comes with additional benefits,
> >>> e.g.
> >>> >>> free
> >>> >>> unlimited history (our current workspace suffers from limited
> >>> history).
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Since the vote thread[1] mentioned a re-evaluation of the decision
> >>> until
> >>> >>> the end of 2022, I'd like to propose to move our channels to the
> >>> official
> >>> >>> ASF Slack workspace. In my eyes, the dedicated workspace is a bit
> of
> >>> an
> >>> >>> overkill and we're better off joining the rest of the ASF
> community.
> >>> Let
> >>> >>> me
> >>> >>> know what you think.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> -Max
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> [1]
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/j2kdh3zx6rrb49mz5n2vb06g2knogxdj
> >>> >>> [2] https://infra.apache.org/slack.html
> >>> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
>

Re: ASF Slack

Posted by Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>.

There is a way to work around the invite issue. For example, the Beam
project has a direct invite link which sends you to the #beam channel:
https://app.slack.com/client/T4S1WH2J3/C9H0YNP3P I'm not 100% sure whether
this link actually works. I've take it from:
https://beam.apache.org/community/join-beam/

-Max

On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 1:48 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
wrote:

> Hi Max,
>
> > I wonder how that has played out since the creation of the Slack
> workspace? I haven't been following the Slack communication.
>
> I think it has primarily played a role next to the existing User mailing
> list: lots of user questions. There were maybe a handful of conversations
> where the result of the conversation was a request to open a Jira, create a
> FLIP or open up a discussion on the Dev list.
>
> > There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
> straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from joining.
>
> That's only possible to use for those with an @apache.org e-mail address,
> see https://infra.apache.org/slack.html. Anyone else would need to be
> invited by a committer, but I wouldn't be in favour of needing to spend
> committers time in adding/inviting members on an ASF Slack instance.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Martijn
>
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 12:33 PM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hey Martijn, hi Chesnay,
>>
>> >The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users can join
>> any Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink.
>>
>> That is one of the main motivations for proposing to move to the ASF
>> Slack. We can create an unlimited number of "flink-XY" channels in the ASF
>> Slack, although one or two are probably all we need. It seems logical that
>> we share the Slack workspace, just like the other infrastructure like JIRA,
>> mail, Jenkins, web server, etc. I guess I'm just in too many Slack
>> workspaces already.
>>
>> From an ASF standpoint, I think it would be desirable to channel people
>> into the main workspace to promote the software foundation. Also, the main
>> point of communication should still be the mailing lists. I wonder how that
>> has played out since the creation of the Slack workspace? I haven't been
>> following the Slack communication.
>>
>> >Not to mention that non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack
>> user to be able to join.
>>
>> There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
>> straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from joining.
>>
>> Linen is pretty nice, especially for making Slack searchable via search
>> engines.
>>
>> -Max
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:44 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> According to Robert linen is supposed to show the entire history.
>>>
>>> On 03/11/2022 14:27, Martijn Visser wrote:
>>> > Addition: I'm not sure if Linen actually provides the messages that are
>>> > older, but I can't test that since we've only recently integrated it.
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Martijn Visser <
>>> martijnvisser@apache.org>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Hi Max,
>>> >>
>>> >>  From my experience, most ASF projects actually don't use the official
>>> >> Slack, but their own instance. That has happened with Airflow,
>>> Iceberg,
>>> >> Hudi etc.
>>> >> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users can
>>> join any
>>> >> Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink. Not to mention that
>>> >> non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack user to be able to
>>> join.
>>> >> The problem with the history is mitigated by using the service from
>>> Linen
>>> >> https://www.linen.dev/s/apache-flink
>>> >>
>>> >> I prefer the current Slack instance of the ASF one.
>>> >>
>>> >> Thanks,
>>> >>
>>> >> Martijn
>>> >>
>>> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:14 PM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Hi,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> A while ago the Flink community decided to create a Slack workspace
>>> [1]. I
>>> >>> wonder, is there a particular reason why we created our own Slack
>>> >>> workspace
>>> >>> and do not use the official ASF Slack [2]? It looks like most ASF
>>> projects
>>> >>> use the official Slack. Using the official Slack makes collaboration
>>> with
>>> >>> other projects easier but it also comes with additional benefits,
>>> e.g.
>>> >>> free
>>> >>> unlimited history (our current workspace suffers from limited
>>> history).
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Since the vote thread[1] mentioned a re-evaluation of the decision
>>> until
>>> >>> the end of 2022, I'd like to propose to move our channels to the
>>> official
>>> >>> ASF Slack workspace. In my eyes, the dedicated workspace is a bit of
>>> an
>>> >>> overkill and we're better off joining the rest of the ASF community.
>>> Let
>>> >>> me
>>> >>> know what you think.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -Max
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/j2kdh3zx6rrb49mz5n2vb06g2knogxdj
>>> >>> [2] https://infra.apache.org/slack.html
>>> >>>
>>>
>>>

Re: ASF Slack

Posted by Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>.

Hi Max,

> I wonder how that has played out since the creation of the Slack
workspace? I haven't been following the Slack communication.

I think it has primarily played a role next to the existing User mailing
list: lots of user questions. There were maybe a handful of conversations
where the result of the conversation was a request to open a Jira, create a
FLIP or open up a discussion on the Dev list.

> There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from joining.

That's only possible to use for those with an @apache.org e-mail address,
see https://infra.apache.org/slack.html. Anyone else would need to be
invited by a committer, but I wouldn't be in favour of needing to spend
committers time in adding/inviting members on an ASF Slack instance.

Best regards,

Martijn

On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 12:33 PM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hey Martijn, hi Chesnay,
>
> >The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users can join
> any Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink.
>
> That is one of the main motivations for proposing to move to the ASF
> Slack. We can create an unlimited number of "flink-XY" channels in the ASF
> Slack, although one or two are probably all we need. It seems logical that
> we share the Slack workspace, just like the other infrastructure like JIRA,
> mail, Jenkins, web server, etc. I guess I'm just in too many Slack
> workspaces already.
>
> From an ASF standpoint, I think it would be desirable to channel people
> into the main workspace to promote the software foundation. Also, the main
> point of communication should still be the mailing lists. I wonder how that
> has played out since the creation of the Slack workspace? I haven't been
> following the Slack communication.
>
> >Not to mention that non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack
> user to be able to join.
>
> There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
> straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from joining.
>
> Linen is pretty nice, especially for making Slack searchable via search
> engines.
>
> -Max
>
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:44 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> According to Robert linen is supposed to show the entire history.
>>
>> On 03/11/2022 14:27, Martijn Visser wrote:
>> > Addition: I'm not sure if Linen actually provides the messages that are
>> > older, but I can't test that since we've only recently integrated it.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Martijn Visser <martijnvisser@apache.org
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Max,
>> >>
>> >>  From my experience, most ASF projects actually don't use the official
>> >> Slack, but their own instance. That has happened with Airflow, Iceberg,
>> >> Hudi etc.
>> >> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users can join
>> any
>> >> Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink. Not to mention that
>> >> non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack user to be able to
>> join.
>> >> The problem with the history is mitigated by using the service from
>> Linen
>> >> https://www.linen.dev/s/apache-flink
>> >>
>> >> I prefer the current Slack instance of the ASF one.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >>
>> >> Martijn
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:14 PM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hi,
>> >>>
>> >>> A while ago the Flink community decided to create a Slack workspace
>> [1]. I
>> >>> wonder, is there a particular reason why we created our own Slack
>> >>> workspace
>> >>> and do not use the official ASF Slack [2]? It looks like most ASF
>> projects
>> >>> use the official Slack. Using the official Slack makes collaboration
>> with
>> >>> other projects easier but it also comes with additional benefits, e.g.
>> >>> free
>> >>> unlimited history (our current workspace suffers from limited
>> history).
>> >>>
>> >>> Since the vote thread[1] mentioned a re-evaluation of the decision
>> until
>> >>> the end of 2022, I'd like to propose to move our channels to the
>> official
>> >>> ASF Slack workspace. In my eyes, the dedicated workspace is a bit of
>> an
>> >>> overkill and we're better off joining the rest of the ASF community.
>> Let
>> >>> me
>> >>> know what you think.
>> >>>
>> >>> -Max
>> >>>
>> >>> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/j2kdh3zx6rrb49mz5n2vb06g2knogxdj
>> >>> [2] https://infra.apache.org/slack.html
>> >>>
>>
>>

Re: ASF Slack

Posted by Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>.

Hey Martijn, hi Chesnay,

>The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users can join any
Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink.

That is one of the main motivations for proposing to move to the ASF Slack.
We can create an unlimited number of "flink-XY" channels in the ASF Slack,
although one or two are probably all we need. It seems logical that we
share the Slack workspace, just like the other infrastructure like JIRA,
mail, Jenkins, web server, etc. I guess I'm just in too many Slack
workspaces already.

From an ASF standpoint, I think it would be desirable to channel people
into the main workspace to promote the software foundation. Also, the main
point of communication should still be the mailing lists. I wonder how that
has played out since the creation of the Slack workspace? I haven't been
following the Slack communication.

>Not to mention that non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack user
to be able to join.

There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most
straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from joining.

Linen is pretty nice, especially for making Slack searchable via search
engines.

-Max

On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:44 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org> wrote:

> According to Robert linen is supposed to show the entire history.
>
> On 03/11/2022 14:27, Martijn Visser wrote:
> > Addition: I'm not sure if Linen actually provides the messages that are
> > older, but I can't test that since we've only recently integrated it.
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Max,
> >>
> >>  From my experience, most ASF projects actually don't use the official
> >> Slack, but their own instance. That has happened with Airflow, Iceberg,
> >> Hudi etc.
> >> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users can join
> any
> >> Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink. Not to mention that
> >> non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack user to be able to
> join.
> >> The problem with the history is mitigated by using the service from
> Linen
> >> https://www.linen.dev/s/apache-flink
> >>
> >> I prefer the current Slack instance of the ASF one.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Martijn
> >>
> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:14 PM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> A while ago the Flink community decided to create a Slack workspace
> [1]. I
> >>> wonder, is there a particular reason why we created our own Slack
> >>> workspace
> >>> and do not use the official ASF Slack [2]? It looks like most ASF
> projects
> >>> use the official Slack. Using the official Slack makes collaboration
> with
> >>> other projects easier but it also comes with additional benefits, e.g.
> >>> free
> >>> unlimited history (our current workspace suffers from limited history).
> >>>
> >>> Since the vote thread[1] mentioned a re-evaluation of the decision
> until
> >>> the end of 2022, I'd like to propose to move our channels to the
> official
> >>> ASF Slack workspace. In my eyes, the dedicated workspace is a bit of an
> >>> overkill and we're better off joining the rest of the ASF community.
> Let
> >>> me
> >>> know what you think.
> >>>
> >>> -Max
> >>>
> >>> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/j2kdh3zx6rrb49mz5n2vb06g2knogxdj
> >>> [2] https://infra.apache.org/slack.html
> >>>
>
>

Re: ASF Slack

Posted by Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>.

According to Robert linen is supposed to show the entire history.

On 03/11/2022 14:27, Martijn Visser wrote:
> Addition: I'm not sure if Linen actually provides the messages that are
> older, but I can't test that since we've only recently integrated it.
>
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Max,
>>
>>  From my experience, most ASF projects actually don't use the official
>> Slack, but their own instance. That has happened with Airflow, Iceberg,
>> Hudi etc.
>> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users can join any
>> Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink. Not to mention that
>> non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack user to be able to join.
>> The problem with the history is mitigated by using the service from Linen
>> https://www.linen.dev/s/apache-flink
>>
>> I prefer the current Slack instance of the ASF one.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Martijn
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:14 PM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> A while ago the Flink community decided to create a Slack workspace [1]. I
>>> wonder, is there a particular reason why we created our own Slack
>>> workspace
>>> and do not use the official ASF Slack [2]? It looks like most ASF projects
>>> use the official Slack. Using the official Slack makes collaboration with
>>> other projects easier but it also comes with additional benefits, e.g.
>>> free
>>> unlimited history (our current workspace suffers from limited history).
>>>
>>> Since the vote thread[1] mentioned a re-evaluation of the decision until
>>> the end of 2022, I'd like to propose to move our channels to the official
>>> ASF Slack workspace. In my eyes, the dedicated workspace is a bit of an
>>> overkill and we're better off joining the rest of the ASF community. Let
>>> me
>>> know what you think.
>>>
>>> -Max
>>>
>>> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/j2kdh3zx6rrb49mz5n2vb06g2knogxdj
>>> [2] https://infra.apache.org/slack.html
>>>

Re: ASF Slack

Posted by Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>.

Addition: I'm not sure if Linen actually provides the messages that are
older, but I can't test that since we've only recently integrated it.

On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
wrote:

> Hi Max,
>
> From my experience, most ASF projects actually don't use the official
> Slack, but their own instance. That has happened with Airflow, Iceberg,
> Hudi etc.
> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users can join any
> Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink. Not to mention that
> non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack user to be able to join.
> The problem with the history is mitigated by using the service from Linen
> https://www.linen.dev/s/apache-flink
>
> I prefer the current Slack instance of the ASF one.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Martijn
>
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:14 PM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> A while ago the Flink community decided to create a Slack workspace [1]. I
>> wonder, is there a particular reason why we created our own Slack
>> workspace
>> and do not use the official ASF Slack [2]? It looks like most ASF projects
>> use the official Slack. Using the official Slack makes collaboration with
>> other projects easier but it also comes with additional benefits, e.g.
>> free
>> unlimited history (our current workspace suffers from limited history).
>>
>> Since the vote thread[1] mentioned a re-evaluation of the decision until
>> the end of 2022, I'd like to propose to move our channels to the official
>> ASF Slack workspace. In my eyes, the dedicated workspace is a bit of an
>> overkill and we're better off joining the rest of the ASF community. Let
>> me
>> know what you think.
>>
>> -Max
>>
>> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/j2kdh3zx6rrb49mz5n2vb06g2knogxdj
>> [2] https://infra.apache.org/slack.html
>>
>

Re: ASF Slack

Posted by Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>.

Hi Max,

From my experience, most ASF projects actually don't use the official
Slack, but their own instance. That has happened with Airflow, Iceberg,
Hudi etc.
The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users can join any
Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink. Not to mention that
non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack user to be able to join.
The problem with the history is mitigated by using the service from Linen
https://www.linen.dev/s/apache-flink

I prefer the current Slack instance of the ASF one.

Thanks,

Martijn

On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:14 PM Maximilian Michels <mx...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> A while ago the Flink community decided to create a Slack workspace [1]. I
> wonder, is there a particular reason why we created our own Slack workspace
> and do not use the official ASF Slack [2]? It looks like most ASF projects
> use the official Slack. Using the official Slack makes collaboration with
> other projects easier but it also comes with additional benefits, e.g. free
> unlimited history (our current workspace suffers from limited history).
>
> Since the vote thread[1] mentioned a re-evaluation of the decision until
> the end of 2022, I'd like to propose to move our channels to the official
> ASF Slack workspace. In my eyes, the dedicated workspace is a bit of an
> overkill and we're better off joining the rest of the ASF community. Let me
> know what you think.
>
> -Max
>
> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/j2kdh3zx6rrb49mz5n2vb06g2knogxdj
> [2] https://infra.apache.org/slack.html
>