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Posted to dev@struts.apache.org by Sean Schofield <se...@gmail.com> on 2005/12/09 15:02:02 UTC
[OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
> Please keep in mind that there are still a good number of people who do
> not use an IDE at all.
Why on earth would you someone do such a thing? Seriously. I'd like
to know :-)
> Frank W. Zammetti
sean
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by netsql <ne...@pointcast.com>.
Ah... what if there's a way to write LESS code? That would be less "bugs".
getters/setters are so yesterday imo. But IDE just makes it
institoalized, and now as layers evelve, you have all this CRUFT
get/sets that are outdated.
Collections is an imporbment, IMO.
Ex: http://groovy.codehaus.org/Collections , scroll to end. What
getters/setters?
.V
Patrick Lightbody wrote:
> I can press ctrl-insert and generate getters
> and setters for all my properties.
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 12/9/05, Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> As long as everyone uses IDEA, that works. As long as someone is not using
> it, though, those files are going to get broken, because the people who
> don't use IDEA won't be keeping them up to date.
As far as the code formatting goes, in practice, it's not a problem.
If anyone runs the code formatter against the tree, it will reformat
what needs to be reformatted and leave the rest alone. Then, it's just
a matter of doing a "code formatting only, no changes" commit.
The key thing is that the code format settings utlize the style people expect.
Of course, insisting that everyone use a particular IDE isn't an
option, since it goes against the Apache grain. But, I am thinking we
might be able to standardize the code format settings for one or two,
for them that do.
-Ted.
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Patrick Lightbody <pl...@gmail.com>.
It works well enough though. We have a few developers who don't use
IDEA, but they know the rules and nothing has exploded so far.
Then again, why isn't everyone using IDEA anyway? >:)
On 12/9/05, Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 12/9/05, Patrick Lightbody <pl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > We check in our IDEA project files, which includes the code standards.
> > Everyone uses those iml and ipr files.
>
>
> As long as everyone uses IDEA, that works. As long as someone is not using
> it, though, those files are going to get broken, because the people who
> don't use IDEA won't be keeping them up to date.
>
> --
> Martin Cooper
>
>
> On 12/9/05, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 12/9/05, Patrick Lightbody <pl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >I can press
> > > > ctrl-enter and surround a method with a try/catch block and know that
> > > > my catch block is logging the exception properly without even typing
> > > > anything.
> > >
> > > I think my favorites are just managing the import statements,
> > > identifying unused members, and precompiling the code as I work. It's
> > > now very rare for me to run a make and have it fail. If it was going
> > > to fail, IDEA would have told me that already. And, of course,
> > > intelligent renaming of members simply rocks!
> > >
> > > With IDEA 5, I also like the way it tracks the exception stack now.
> > > There was a couple places in MailReader where we weren't catching all
> > > the thrown exceptions, but IDEA pointed those out during the
> > > refactoring. I often feel like I'm pair-programming with Commander
> > > Data. :)
> > >
> > > In my day job, we also use the code formatting extensively, so that we
> > > are sure that everything is absolutely consistent.
> > >
> > > Something I'd like to do is come up with a standard code setting for
> > > IDEA that we could all load up when working here. Of course, we could
> > > have a similar setup for Eclipse too.
> > >
> > > Is there something like that for WebWork, Patrick?
> > >
> > > -Ted.
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > >
> > >
> >
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 12/9/05, Patrick Lightbody <pl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> We check in our IDEA project files, which includes the code standards.
> Everyone uses those iml and ipr files.
As long as everyone uses IDEA, that works. As long as someone is not using
it, though, those files are going to get broken, because the people who
don't use IDEA won't be keeping them up to date.
--
Martin Cooper
On 12/9/05, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 12/9/05, Patrick Lightbody <pl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >I can press
> > > ctrl-enter and surround a method with a try/catch block and know that
> > > my catch block is logging the exception properly without even typing
> > > anything.
> >
> > I think my favorites are just managing the import statements,
> > identifying unused members, and precompiling the code as I work. It's
> > now very rare for me to run a make and have it fail. If it was going
> > to fail, IDEA would have told me that already. And, of course,
> > intelligent renaming of members simply rocks!
> >
> > With IDEA 5, I also like the way it tracks the exception stack now.
> > There was a couple places in MailReader where we weren't catching all
> > the thrown exceptions, but IDEA pointed those out during the
> > refactoring. I often feel like I'm pair-programming with Commander
> > Data. :)
> >
> > In my day job, we also use the code formatting extensively, so that we
> > are sure that everything is absolutely consistent.
> >
> > Something I'd like to do is come up with a standard code setting for
> > IDEA that we could all load up when working here. Of course, we could
> > have a similar setup for Eclipse too.
> >
> > Is there something like that for WebWork, Patrick?
> >
> > -Ted.
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
>
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Patrick Lightbody <pl...@gmail.com>.
We check in our IDEA project files, which includes the code standards.
Everyone uses those iml and ipr files.
On 12/9/05, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/9/05, Patrick Lightbody <pl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I can press
> > ctrl-enter and surround a method with a try/catch block and know that
> > my catch block is logging the exception properly without even typing
> > anything.
>
> I think my favorites are just managing the import statements,
> identifying unused members, and precompiling the code as I work. It's
> now very rare for me to run a make and have it fail. If it was going
> to fail, IDEA would have told me that already. And, of course,
> intelligent renaming of members simply rocks!
>
> With IDEA 5, I also like the way it tracks the exception stack now.
> There was a couple places in MailReader where we weren't catching all
> the thrown exceptions, but IDEA pointed those out during the
> refactoring. I often feel like I'm pair-programming with Commander
> Data. :)
>
> In my day job, we also use the code formatting extensively, so that we
> are sure that everything is absolutely consistent.
>
> Something I'd like to do is come up with a standard code setting for
> IDEA that we could all load up when working here. Of course, we could
> have a similar setup for Eclipse too.
>
> Is there something like that for WebWork, Patrick?
>
> -Ted.
>
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Sean Schofield <se...@gmail.com>.
> I think my favorites are just managing the import statements,
> identifying unused members, and precompiling the code as I work. It's
> now very rare for me to run a make and have it fail.
Yes I forgot to mention precompiling. That is a HUGE benefit. That
will save you several hours over the long run.
> -Ted.
sean
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 12/9/05, Patrick Lightbody <pl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I can press
> ctrl-enter and surround a method with a try/catch block and know that
> my catch block is logging the exception properly without even typing
> anything.
I think my favorites are just managing the import statements,
identifying unused members, and precompiling the code as I work. It's
now very rare for me to run a make and have it fail. If it was going
to fail, IDEA would have told me that already. And, of course,
intelligent renaming of members simply rocks!
With IDEA 5, I also like the way it tracks the exception stack now.
There was a couple places in MailReader where we weren't catching all
the thrown exceptions, but IDEA pointed those out during the
refactoring. I often feel like I'm pair-programming with Commander
Data. :)
In my day job, we also use the code formatting extensively, so that we
are sure that everything is absolutely consistent.
Something I'd like to do is come up with a standard code setting for
IDEA that we could all load up when working here. Of course, we could
have a similar setup for Eclipse too.
Is there something like that for WebWork, Patrick?
-Ted.
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Patrick Lightbody <pl...@gmail.com>.
Oh, and another point about IDEs: slowness. You can't just compare the
speed of the Vi text editor to the speed of IDEA's text editor. It
doesn't work that way.
I can type psvm<tab> and get a full public static void main
declaration printed out. I can press ctrl-insert and generate getters
and setters for all my properties. I can press ctrl-f6 and refactor a
method, in turn changing 100 other class files instantly. I can press
ctrl-enter and surround a method with a try/catch block and know that
my catch block is logging the exception properly without even typing
anything.
You have to look at the overall productivity boosts, and you can't do
that until you actually know all the features of both. I used to use
JDE in Emacs and it had some advanced Java support, but nothing
compared to the time I save when using IDEA.
Patrick
On 12/9/05, Patrick Lightbody <pl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Heh, don't have time to read this whole thread right now, but I'd say this:
>
> The IDE and the tools are one of Java's key strengths. We should
> embrace those strengths. I'm always amazed by how many Java developers
> still don't even know how to debug, or launch Tomcat or Jetty or Resin
> from within their IDE for a super quick development environment.
>
> Vi and Emacs are for Ruby folks and perl hackers. Let's embrace the
> fact that Java refactors well and has great tools to help out. As a
> community we should encourage people to use IDEA or Eclipse (if you
> can't afford IDEA), and teach them how to debug, and show them how
> they can launch the servlet container in their IDE.
>
> WebWork 2.2 includes an app called QuickStart that launches Jetty from
> anywhere. We're including instructions on how to use it within your
> IDE to help you work faster. We're trying to teach the community about
> the tools they never knew about.
>
> At every job I've had, when I came in my coworkers were using emacs
> and building .war files and manually deploying them to Tomcat. After
> they learned how to use IDEA, launch Jetty from within IDEA, and step
> through their code, they all agreed they had huge productivity boosts.
>
> Patrick
>
> On 12/9/05, Sean Schofield <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Please keep in mind that there are still a good number of people who do
> > > not use an IDE at all.
> >
> > Why on earth would you someone do such a thing? Seriously. I'd like
> > to know :-)
> >
> > > Frank W. Zammetti
> >
> > sean
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Patrick Lightbody <pl...@gmail.com>.
Heh, don't have time to read this whole thread right now, but I'd say this:
The IDE and the tools are one of Java's key strengths. We should
embrace those strengths. I'm always amazed by how many Java developers
still don't even know how to debug, or launch Tomcat or Jetty or Resin
from within their IDE for a super quick development environment.
Vi and Emacs are for Ruby folks and perl hackers. Let's embrace the
fact that Java refactors well and has great tools to help out. As a
community we should encourage people to use IDEA or Eclipse (if you
can't afford IDEA), and teach them how to debug, and show them how
they can launch the servlet container in their IDE.
WebWork 2.2 includes an app called QuickStart that launches Jetty from
anywhere. We're including instructions on how to use it within your
IDE to help you work faster. We're trying to teach the community about
the tools they never knew about.
At every job I've had, when I came in my coworkers were using emacs
and building .war files and manually deploying them to Tomcat. After
they learned how to use IDEA, launch Jetty from within IDEA, and step
through their code, they all agreed they had huge productivity boosts.
Patrick
On 12/9/05, Sean Schofield <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Please keep in mind that there are still a good number of people who do
> > not use an IDE at all.
>
> Why on earth would you someone do such a thing? Seriously. I'd like
> to know :-)
>
> > Frank W. Zammetti
>
> sean
>
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 12/9/05, Paul Speed <ps...@progeeks.com> wrote:
> This is a valid point and debuggers have really come a long way. I
> still use the logging method personally because I've found debuggers
> dull my ability to see the bugs early.
Ah, well, you might not be using the "debugger" early enough :)
I find it's a good practice to set a break-point whenever running new
code for the first time. (So in my case, that's usually within a
test.) The best time to inspect code is when its being created.
Stepping through the code in a debugger gives us a chance to verify
that everything is working the way we expect.
Steve McConnell mentions the idea in Code Complete, and I have to say
that it works well for me. I also like to think of it as following
Habit 1: Be Proactive.
-Ted.
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Paul Speed wrote:
> Plus, I type really fast. In the time it takes some programmers to
> figure out where they want to set their break-points, setup their
> watches, etc... I've already put my log statements in, recompiled, and
> started running.
Me too :) I actually had the Army typing record at Ft. Gordon at one
time, dunno if it still stands. I've used various typing speed test
programs and I've broken 100 WPM more than a few times.
But again, that's not to impress anyone, just that it's a valid reason
why I feel more effective in UltraEdit than an IDE... for instance, in
Eclipse, and many other IDEs, you get a neat little window to create a
new class. Enter the fields, modifiers, whatever, and it creates it.
Cool! But, in the time it takes someone to go through that wizard, I
can type the equivalent code, recompile and begin using the class. And
in doing so I am in completely control of what is happening, not
trusting that the IDE is doing things the way I want.
Control is a big part of it. I spent about 5 years straight doing
nothing but Assembly in the 80's, and you get a little spoiled in
knowing every detail of your program. You can't do that with a 4GL, or
with modern OS's and BM's on top of those, but every little bit closer
to bear metal I can get helps me.
> But I have been tempted a few times... I'll admit that. ;)
IDEA *almost* had me... and a few versions down the road it just may get
me. It's one of the few I'll bother to check out again.
> -Paul
Frank
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Paul Speed <ps...@progeeks.com>.
Sean Schofield wrote:
> Ummm... I guess you guys don't do a lot of debugging then? You would
> rather imagine what a value was a certain point in time rather then
> actually know what is was? If you never make mistakes then there is
> no issue but if you think a value is 'x' it only take 5 seconds to be
> 100% sure. Of course there is System.out.println but are you going to
> add those for all 10, 15 values in question?
This is a valid point and debuggers have really come a long way. I
still use the logging method personally because I've found debuggers
dull my ability to see the bugs early. When I have to look at the code
and think about the assumptions I've made I can frequently find and fix
the bug before the debugger would have ever fired up.
And then there are those occasional times where the code just behaves
different in a debugger, paused under a microscope than it does running
wild.
Plus, I type really fast. In the time it takes some programmers to
figure out where they want to set their break-points, setup their
watches, etc... I've already put my log statements in, recompiled, and
started running.
But I have been tempted a few times... I'll admit that. ;)
-Paul
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
> Martin Cooper wrote:
> > Or maybe I'll claim that I use a UDE - CodeWright's tag line used to be
> > "The Universal Development Environment". ;-) Like UltraEdit, it's
> > customisable up the wazoo. Sadly, it was acquired by Borland not so long
> > ago, so I fully expect that it will go away soon, as have all of the
> > other independent tools I used to use that were acquired by Borland. ;-(
>
> Really? UltraEdit was bought by Borland? Or did you mean CodeWright?
I meant CodeWright.
--
Martin Cooper
Frank
>
Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.
On 12/10/05, Sean Schofield <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > What is a classpath?
>
> Are you going to be at Apache Con? If so we can get together over
> dinner and I can explain it to you ;-)
Cool, I'm already there :-)
> > Niall
>
> sean
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Sean Schofield <se...@gmail.com>.
> What is a classpath?
Are you going to be at Apache Con? If so we can get together over
dinner and I can explain it to you ;-)
> Niall
sean
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.
On 12/9/05, Patrick Lightbody <pl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sounds like Wendy says it best. I definitely agree that a lot of Java
> users are at a point where they don't know what a class path is, much
> less the importance of ClassLoader hierarchies.
What is a classpath?
Niall
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Wendy Smoak <ws...@gmail.com>.
On 12/9/05, Patrick Lightbody <pl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I definitely agree that a lot of Java
> users are at a point where they don't know what a class path is, much
> less the importance of ClassLoader hierarchies. It's unfortunate that
> "using an IDE" gets associated with that.
There's "using an IDE" and then there's "being dependent on an IDE".
I doubt anyone reading this list falls into the second category. :)
--
Wendy
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Patrick Lightbody <pl...@gmail.com>.
Sounds like Wendy says it best. I definitely agree that a lot of Java
users are at a point where they don't know what a class path is, much
less the importance of ClassLoader hierarchies. It's unfortunate that
"using an IDE" gets associated with that.
It's good to get the word out that you can use an IDE and still know
how to dig through the guts of a project like commons-jci (which is
used by WebWork's QuickStart app:
http://wiki.opensymphony.com/display/WW/QuickStart) and not be scared.
Ditto for WebWork's continuation support
(http://wiki.opensymphony.com/display/WW/Continuations) which uses
some pretty crazy byte-code manipulation.
Patrick
On 12/9/05, Wendy Smoak <ws...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> > Martin Cooper wrote:
> > > My turn to date myself, along with Frank. ;-)
> >
> > No wories, we're not women :) (Oh boy, I think I see Wendy getting
> > ready to fire off a reply - LOL!)
>
> (You think I'm _that_ easily offended?!) I'm just enjoying the war
> stories, and trying to guess how old everyone is. When I start
> worrying about the long list of things I have yet to learn, it's
> comforting to know that most of you have at least a few years' head
> start. ;)
>
> I'm enjoying IDEA (though sometimes it's so intutitive it's scary...
> and occasionally it's just plain embarrassing when it points out
> something I should have known better than to do in the first place.)
> But I still use jEdit more than anything else. So far I haven't seen
> an IDE that matches jEdit's HyperSearch (IDEA only wants to search
> source code) or that uses BeanShell for macros.
>
> There are times when I like the suggestions and the ability to jump
> from usage to interface to implementation with a few keystrokes... and
> other times when I just want to be left alone. With both jEdit and
> IDEA set to auto-reload changed files, I go back and forth depending
> on my mood.
>
> I also don't ever want to be in a situation where I can't edit with
> vi, construct a classpath and compile code at the command line if I
> _really_ have to. For a reality check, I go back to comp.lang.java
> and see if I can answer any questions. :)
>
> --
> Wendy
>
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Wendy Smoak wrote:
> (You think I'm _that_ easily offended?!)
Oh no, I know better :) You just happen to be the only woman I know on
the lists, so you were used in the joke by default :)
> I'm just enjoying the war
> stories, and trying to guess how old everyone is. When I start
> worrying about the long list of things I have yet to learn, it's
> comforting to know that most of you have at least a few years' head
> start. ;)
No, it's the point where you think you know everything that should worry
you! Even a conceited a**hole like me doesn't think he knows it all!
> I also don't ever want to be in a situation where I can't edit with
> vi, construct a classpath and compile code at the command line if I
> _really_ have to. For a reality check, I go back to comp.lang.java
> and see if I can answer any questions. :)
I personally think people are all too happy to think very high-level and
not bother with the details. Sometimes that exactly the way to think,
but not always.
I don't know about anyone else, but because I spent a lot of time doing
low-level coding, my brain tends to subconsciously think at that level,
even when I'm watching something at a higher level run. When I see my
java app running, in the back of my mind I'm thinking about what the
VM's state must look like at that point, how the OS must be allocating
resources to the VM, what kinds of ops must be going on at the CPU
level, etc.
Now, I don't now how much of it I have right any more, I suspect very
little!, but the *concepts* are still close at least.
I don't know what good any of this does me any more, but it's still there :)
> --
> Wendy
Frank
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Wendy Smoak <ws...@gmail.com>.
On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> Martin Cooper wrote:
> > My turn to date myself, along with Frank. ;-)
>
> No wories, we're not women :) (Oh boy, I think I see Wendy getting
> ready to fire off a reply - LOL!)
(You think I'm _that_ easily offended?!) I'm just enjoying the war
stories, and trying to guess how old everyone is. When I start
worrying about the long list of things I have yet to learn, it's
comforting to know that most of you have at least a few years' head
start. ;)
I'm enjoying IDEA (though sometimes it's so intutitive it's scary...
and occasionally it's just plain embarrassing when it points out
something I should have known better than to do in the first place.)
But I still use jEdit more than anything else. So far I haven't seen
an IDE that matches jEdit's HyperSearch (IDEA only wants to search
source code) or that uses BeanShell for macros.
There are times when I like the suggestions and the ability to jump
from usage to interface to implementation with a few keystrokes... and
other times when I just want to be left alone. With both jEdit and
IDEA set to auto-reload changed files, I go back and forth depending
on my mood.
I also don't ever want to be in a situation where I can't edit with
vi, construct a classpath and compile code at the command line if I
_really_ have to. For a reality check, I go back to comp.lang.java
and see if I can answer any questions. :)
--
Wendy
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Martin Cooper wrote:
> My turn to date myself, along with Frank. ;-)
No wories, we're not women :) (Oh boy, I think I see Wendy getting
ready to fire off a reply - LOL!)
> In my first programming job, I wrote my code on coding sheets. When I
> was done, those would go to a data entry group, who would type the code
> on to punched cards. Then the cards would go to the sysops, who would
> schedule the job. When the job completed, usually the next day, I would
> get a pile of paper back. That edit /compile cycle alone taught me to be
> very, very careful and deliberate when I write my code.
Ok, you beat me :) I only go back as far as a teletype connected to a
VAX box... still, I did have to submit jobs for compilation and
execution, but the wait time was only a few minutes, depending on the load.
It's funny... a guy that was with my company for I believe 40+ years
just left, and he was always telling me the same kinds of stories... how
he could tell how much the mainframe was working by putting an egg on it
and seeing if it cooked, etc. On his way out the door he handed me an
old tape real *with* the write-protect ring :) (I collect old computer
gear, that's definitely the oldest!)
> I won't say I never use a debugger, but it's been very rare, at least
> since I started working in Java. In my C++ days, I used to spend many
> hours in a debugger - often finding the hairy problems by reading
> through generated assembly code rather than the C++ code itself. But
> somehow in Java I haven't had the same need.
That's the interetsing thing... I do a lot of C coding for PocketPC, and
I don't think I could live without a debugger there. Interesting.
> Or maybe I'll claim that I use a UDE - CodeWright's tag line used to be
> "The Universal Development Environment". ;-) Like UltraEdit, it's
> customisable up the wazoo. Sadly, it was acquired by Borland not so long
> ago, so I fully expect that it will go away soon, as have all of the
> other independent tools I used to use that were acquired by Borland. ;-(
Really? UltraEdit was bought by Borland? Or did you mean CodeWright?
Frank
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Craig McClanahan wrote:
> * Debugging (I usually consider it an admission of defeat when
> I can't find bugs by visual inspection, but when you need this
> you need it BADLY)
Did I ever tell you the story of the 48-hour marathon debug session I
had leading up to a science fair in 10th grade? Let's just say that
when you have 10,000 lines of straight assembly, the difference between
ldx and ldy when all the text looks the same (i.e., no syntax
highlighting) can be VERY difficult to spot, especially when the project
is due Monday, and it's Friday night and your tape drive just ate your
code :)
Oh geez, I think I just won Geek Of The Year award ;)
> * Pushbutton unit tests (in NetBeans, I press ALT+F6 to compile
> my project and then execute the unit tests all the time, pretty much
> to the exclusion of just running the "Build Project" target).
I've gotten myself into a habit where the targets in my build scripts
have specific names, and I have hotkeys mapped to each. So for me, I
can do a complete build with Alt-F1, run unit tests with Alt-F2, clean
for checkin with Alt-F3, and I even have a CVS check-in task mapped to a
hot key. All the output is nicely captured and displayed inside
UltraEdit's output window.
> * Code completion (lets me feel better about using longer
> more descriptive method and class names)
I admit this is one of the things I wish I had... the new UltraStudio
has it to a degree, but it's proven to be more touble than its worth.
> * Version control integration (although I wish the SVN plugins
> were a little more mature ...)
I've found that having TortoiseCVS and TortoiseSVN available has been at
least as good as having built-in version control. Because UltraEdit and
Directory Opus never close on my PC, I tend to treat them almost as an
integrated single application.
Frank
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 12/9/05, Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 12/9/05, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 12/9/05, Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > My turn to date myself, along with Frank. ;-)
> >
> >
> > Me too :-).
> >
> > In my first programming job, I wrote my code on coding sheets. When I
> was
> > > done, those would go to a data entry group, who would type the code on
> > to
> > > punched cards. Then the cards would go to the sysops, who would
> schedule
> > > the
> > > job. When the job completed, usually the next day, I would get a pile
> of
> > > paper back. That edit /compile cycle alone taught me to be very, very
> > > careful and deliberate when I write my code.
> >
> >
> >
> > I was pretty much in the same place in my first for-pay programming job
> > (at
> > the university I was attending). Indeed, our whole data center
> (including
> > the programming classes) was punched card based, and only ran student
> jobs
> > 2-3 times a day. So, when I was taking my programming classes, and
> before
> > I
> > even got the full time programming job, I cleverly got myself hired as
> the
> > operator that *ran* the student jobs ... so I could run *my* jobs as
> many
> > times as I needed to :-).
> >
> > I'm sort of a recent (well, last three years) convert away from Emacs
> and
> > towards IDEs. My original motivations/excuses centered around the fact
> > that
> > I wanted to never touch a mouse, and even avoid function keys if I
> could,
> > to
> > maximize typing speed. Nowdays, my fingers have slowed down enough that
> I
> > can appreciate all the other things IDEs can do for me. In particular,
> my
> > sweet spots (when building Java class libraries for frameworks) are:
> >
> > * Debugging (I usually consider it an admission of defeat when
> > I can't find bugs by visual inspection, but when you need this
> > you need it BADLY)
> >
> > * Refactoring (unlike a lot of open source projects, at work we
> > distinguish clearly between public and private APIs, and have
> > a lot of freedom to improve the code organization of existing
> > private modules -- very handy).
> >
> > * Pushbutton unit tests (in NetBeans, I press ALT+F6 to compile
> > my project and then execute the unit tests all the time, pretty much
> > to the exclusion of just running the "Build Project" target).
> >
> > * Code completion (lets me feel better about using longer
> > more descriptive method and class names)
> >
> > * Version control integration (although I wish the SVN plugins
> > were a little more mature ...)
> >
> > Yes, I can go find Emacs plugins that can do all of that, but then I
> have
> > to
> > remember all the crazy ALT/META/SHIFT keystroke combinations.
>
>
> Besides, unless I'm mistaken, you're the architect for an IDE these days
> (or
> at least Creator, which extends one), so it wouldn't be good for you to be
> running around avoiding them, now would it? ;-) ;-)
Definitely not :-).
During one of my early talks on Shale, I had been using NB for all the Shale
part of the demo, but I got royally kidded because I happened to have had an
Emacs window open to do a quick one-time edit on a build.xml file in a
different project :-).
--
> Martin Cooper
Craig
Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 12/9/05, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 12/9/05, Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> >
> > My turn to date myself, along with Frank. ;-)
>
>
> Me too :-).
>
> In my first programming job, I wrote my code on coding sheets. When I was
> > done, those would go to a data entry group, who would type the code on
> to
> > punched cards. Then the cards would go to the sysops, who would schedule
> > the
> > job. When the job completed, usually the next day, I would get a pile of
> > paper back. That edit /compile cycle alone taught me to be very, very
> > careful and deliberate when I write my code.
>
>
>
> I was pretty much in the same place in my first for-pay programming job
> (at
> the university I was attending). Indeed, our whole data center (including
> the programming classes) was punched card based, and only ran student jobs
> 2-3 times a day. So, when I was taking my programming classes, and before
> I
> even got the full time programming job, I cleverly got myself hired as the
> operator that *ran* the student jobs ... so I could run *my* jobs as many
> times as I needed to :-).
>
> I'm sort of a recent (well, last three years) convert away from Emacs and
> towards IDEs. My original motivations/excuses centered around the fact
> that
> I wanted to never touch a mouse, and even avoid function keys if I could,
> to
> maximize typing speed. Nowdays, my fingers have slowed down enough that I
> can appreciate all the other things IDEs can do for me. In particular, my
> sweet spots (when building Java class libraries for frameworks) are:
>
> * Debugging (I usually consider it an admission of defeat when
> I can't find bugs by visual inspection, but when you need this
> you need it BADLY)
>
> * Refactoring (unlike a lot of open source projects, at work we
> distinguish clearly between public and private APIs, and have
> a lot of freedom to improve the code organization of existing
> private modules -- very handy).
>
> * Pushbutton unit tests (in NetBeans, I press ALT+F6 to compile
> my project and then execute the unit tests all the time, pretty much
> to the exclusion of just running the "Build Project" target).
>
> * Code completion (lets me feel better about using longer
> more descriptive method and class names)
>
> * Version control integration (although I wish the SVN plugins
> were a little more mature ...)
>
> Yes, I can go find Emacs plugins that can do all of that, but then I have
> to
> remember all the crazy ALT/META/SHIFT keystroke combinations.
Besides, unless I'm mistaken, you're the architect for an IDE these days (or
at least Creator, which extends one), so it wouldn't be good for you to be
running around avoiding them, now would it? ;-) ;-)
--
Martin Cooper
Craig
>
>
Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 12/9/05, Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
> My turn to date myself, along with Frank. ;-)
Me too :-).
In my first programming job, I wrote my code on coding sheets. When I was
> done, those would go to a data entry group, who would type the code on to
> punched cards. Then the cards would go to the sysops, who would schedule
> the
> job. When the job completed, usually the next day, I would get a pile of
> paper back. That edit /compile cycle alone taught me to be very, very
> careful and deliberate when I write my code.
I was pretty much in the same place in my first for-pay programming job (at
the university I was attending). Indeed, our whole data center (including
the programming classes) was punched card based, and only ran student jobs
2-3 times a day. So, when I was taking my programming classes, and before I
even got the full time programming job, I cleverly got myself hired as the
operator that *ran* the student jobs ... so I could run *my* jobs as many
times as I needed to :-).
I'm sort of a recent (well, last three years) convert away from Emacs and
towards IDEs. My original motivations/excuses centered around the fact that
I wanted to never touch a mouse, and even avoid function keys if I could, to
maximize typing speed. Nowdays, my fingers have slowed down enough that I
can appreciate all the other things IDEs can do for me. In particular, my
sweet spots (when building Java class libraries for frameworks) are:
* Debugging (I usually consider it an admission of defeat when
I can't find bugs by visual inspection, but when you need this
you need it BADLY)
* Refactoring (unlike a lot of open source projects, at work we
distinguish clearly between public and private APIs, and have
a lot of freedom to improve the code organization of existing
private modules -- very handy).
* Pushbutton unit tests (in NetBeans, I press ALT+F6 to compile
my project and then execute the unit tests all the time, pretty much
to the exclusion of just running the "Build Project" target).
* Code completion (lets me feel better about using longer
more descriptive method and class names)
* Version control integration (although I wish the SVN plugins
were a little more mature ...)
Yes, I can go find Emacs plugins that can do all of that, but then I have to
remember all the crazy ALT/META/SHIFT keystroke combinations.
Craig
Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
> Yeah, I forgot the debugger point :)
>
> Like I said, I've been coding *a lot* of years (25+ at this point)..
> granted, most of that wasn't Java, but still... I've become extremely
> intuitive in my debugging approach. I don't say this with an ego...
> which is rare for me! :) ... but I can't tell you how many times someone
> has asked me to help debug something, and I'd look at the code for a
> little while and then say "ok, change X to Y and try it", and lo and
> behold that solves the problem, but then I can't explain why.
My turn to date myself, along with Frank. ;-)
In my first programming job, I wrote my code on coding sheets. When I was
done, those would go to a data entry group, who would type the code on to
punched cards. Then the cards would go to the sysops, who would schedule the
job. When the job completed, usually the next day, I would get a pile of
paper back. That edit /compile cycle alone taught me to be very, very
careful and deliberate when I write my code.
If something went wrong with my code, I got a 3 inch thick pile of paper on
my desk. That was a mainframe core dump. That was it. There was no debugger.
Heck, the machine didn't even have terminals. I had to figure out what was
wrong by looking through the core dump and matching it up with my code. That
experience, for me, was where I learned the skill that Frank mentions above
- to be able to look at the code and find the bug.
I won't say I never use a debugger, but it's been very rare, at least since
I started working in Java. In my C++ days, I used to spend many hours in a
debugger - often finding the hairy problems by reading through generated
assembly code rather than the C++ code itself. But somehow in Java I haven't
had the same need.
As for IDEs, I share many of Frank's opinions from his first post in this
thread. In my case, I use CodeWright rather than UltraEdit, and the
complaints around me are about Eclipse rather than RAD, but otherwise we
seem to be in similar situations. ;-)
I won't say I never use an IDE, either. If I need to do a bunch of
refactoring of Java code, I'll fire up Eclipse to do it. (I used IDEA for a
while, but my current company "standardised" on Eclipse, so there's less
pain in using that.) But it doesn't do much else for me that I can't do in
CodeWright. And frankly, these days, I probably spend more time writing
JavaScript and XML than I do Java, and Eclipse is pretty hopeless there.
Or maybe I'll claim that I use a UDE - CodeWright's tag line used to be "The
Universal Development Environment". ;-) Like UltraEdit, it's customisable up
the wazoo. Sadly, it was acquired by Borland not so long ago, so I fully
expect that it will go away soon, as have all of the other independent tools
I used to use that were acquired by Borland. ;-(
--
Martin Cooper
So, for me, 95% of the time, a debugger doesn't help me. There have
> been cases where a colleague and me both were trying to debug something,
> he with an IDE and all the debugging capabilities in has, and me with
> Notepad and a command line, and guess who finds the problem first?
>
> Again, not as an ego stroke or anything, but just to illustrate that at
> a certain point a debugger doesn't help as much as you would logically
> expect.
>
> That being said, I have become rather fond of JSwat for those times when
> my intuition fails me :) Most of my build scripts now include a target
> that starts JSwat and gets it ready to debug whatever the project is.
>
> But again, let me repeat my constant refrain: whatever works best for an
> individual developer is OK with me :) I think coding is a very
> personal, tailored thing, and that's probably why there's so many IDEs,
> text editor and other options :)
>
> Frank
>
> Sean Schofield wrote:
> > Ummm... I guess you guys don't do a lot of debugging then? You would
> > rather imagine what a value was a certain point in time rather then
> > actually know what is was? If you never make mistakes then there is
> > no issue but if you think a value is 'x' it only take 5 seconds to be
> > 100% sure. Of course there is System.out.println but are you going to
> > add those for all 10, 15 values in question?
> >
> > I agree that a lot of IDE features are overrated. I'm also not a big
> > fan of Eclipse either but that is not the only IDE. There are some
> > things an IDE gives you that I think you're crazy to miss out on.
> > Managing all of your packages and classpaths is trivial. Then there
> > are the refactoring tools.
> >
> > I don't know if it makes sense to use a text editor just because you
> > are "mad at your IDE." Maybe you should get a better IDE? Try
> > JBuilder 2005. The free version does everything you vi lovers would
> > need. I don't buy the argument that IDE's are slow. I agreed with
> > that argument when the first java based IDE's emerged in the 90's but
> > we're way past that point. You can also turn off most of the
> > questionably helpful stuff that you are complaining about.
> >
> > My 2 cents. You are free to use whatever you want of course. Just
> > thought it would be a fun Friday topic to find out what the IDE haters
> > are thinking. I'm pretty comfortable sticking with mine but whatever
> > "flips your boat."
> >
> > sean
> >
> >
> > On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> >
> >>That's a good point Greg, and it applies for me too... I have a number
> >>of different IDEs installed, and on occassion I will use a feature of
> >>one or another... I've pulled stuff into IDEA and used its code
> >>inspectors for example. I've used an Eclipse plug-in here and there
> >>too. So it's not like I *never* touch an IDE, but for me its very
> >>targeted usages, I can't imagine being in any of them all day.
> >>
> >>Frank
> >>
> >>Greg Reddin wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Dec 9, 2005, at 8:02 AM, Sean Schofield wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>Please keep in mind that there are still a good number of people who
> do
> >>>>>not use an IDE at all.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Why on earth would you someone do such a thing? Seriously. I'd like
> >>>>to know :-)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Bragging rights, what else :-)
> >>>
> >>>There are occasions when I simply use vi and ant/maven/etc. either
> >>>because I'm wanting to be closer to the bits and know what's going on
> >>>or I'm too lazy to start Netbeans or because I'm pissed off at
> >>>Netbeans. Then as soon as i have to code a JavaBean with a bunch of
> >>>gets/sets I'll fire it up. Or do some refactoring, etc.
> >>>
> >>>So it just depends on my mood. When I feel trapped by the IDE I'll
> >>>move it out of the way. When I feel trapped by the command line
> I fire
> >>>up the IDE. Sometimes I like to go without an IDE just so I will not
> >>>forget what the IDE is really doing for me.
> >>>
> >>>And sometimes it's because I'm using a new tool and either the IDE
> >>>doesn't support it yet or I'm trying to learn it first before I try to
> >>>learn how the IDE wants me to use it. Case in point: Creator and
> >>>JSF. On my first JSF app I'm doing it at the command line using
> >>>NetBeans for coding and maven to build. Then I'll probably do my next
> >>>one in Creator so I can see what kind of value it adds.
> >>>
> >>>I used to think people who used multiple IDE's had a death wish, but
> >>>now I'm seeing the value in that too. For example, Creator is
> based on
> >>>Netbeans 4, but I like some features in Netbeand 5. So I'm starting
> to
> >>>use Creator in places where it makes sense to do so, Netbeans
> >>>elsewhere, and maven to compile/run/test everything. I haven't tried
> >>>Eclipse yet :-)
> >>>
> >>>Greg
> >>>
> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> >>>For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>--
> >>Frank W. Zammetti
> >>Founder and Chief Software Architect
> >>Omnytex Technologies
> >>http://www.omnytex.com
> >>AIM: fzammetti
> >>Yahoo: fzammetti
> >>MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Frank W. Zammetti
> Founder and Chief Software Architect
> Omnytex Technologies
> http://www.omnytex.com
> AIM: fzammetti
> Yahoo: fzammetti
> MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Yeah, I forgot the debugger point :)
Like I said, I've been coding *a lot* of years (25+ at this point)..
granted, most of that wasn't Java, but still... I've become extremely
intuitive in my debugging approach. I don't say this with an ego...
which is rare for me! :) ... but I can't tell you how many times someone
has asked me to help debug something, and I'd look at the code for a
little while and then say "ok, change X to Y and try it", and lo and
behold that solves the problem, but then I can't explain why.
So, for me, 95% of the time, a debugger doesn't help me. There have
been cases where a colleague and me both were trying to debug something,
he with an IDE and all the debugging capabilities in has, and me with
Notepad and a command line, and guess who finds the problem first?
Again, not as an ego stroke or anything, but just to illustrate that at
a certain point a debugger doesn't help as much as you would logically
expect.
That being said, I have become rather fond of JSwat for those times when
my intuition fails me :) Most of my build scripts now include a target
that starts JSwat and gets it ready to debug whatever the project is.
But again, let me repeat my constant refrain: whatever works best for an
individual developer is OK with me :) I think coding is a very
personal, tailored thing, and that's probably why there's so many IDEs,
text editor and other options :)
Frank
Sean Schofield wrote:
> Ummm... I guess you guys don't do a lot of debugging then? You would
> rather imagine what a value was a certain point in time rather then
> actually know what is was? If you never make mistakes then there is
> no issue but if you think a value is 'x' it only take 5 seconds to be
> 100% sure. Of course there is System.out.println but are you going to
> add those for all 10, 15 values in question?
>
> I agree that a lot of IDE features are overrated. I'm also not a big
> fan of Eclipse either but that is not the only IDE. There are some
> things an IDE gives you that I think you're crazy to miss out on.
> Managing all of your packages and classpaths is trivial. Then there
> are the refactoring tools.
>
> I don't know if it makes sense to use a text editor just because you
> are "mad at your IDE." Maybe you should get a better IDE? Try
> JBuilder 2005. The free version does everything you vi lovers would
> need. I don't buy the argument that IDE's are slow. I agreed with
> that argument when the first java based IDE's emerged in the 90's but
> we're way past that point. You can also turn off most of the
> questionably helpful stuff that you are complaining about.
>
> My 2 cents. You are free to use whatever you want of course. Just
> thought it would be a fun Friday topic to find out what the IDE haters
> are thinking. I'm pretty comfortable sticking with mine but whatever
> "flips your boat."
>
> sean
>
>
> On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
>>That's a good point Greg, and it applies for me too... I have a number
>>of different IDEs installed, and on occassion I will use a feature of
>>one or another... I've pulled stuff into IDEA and used its code
>>inspectors for example. I've used an Eclipse plug-in here and there
>>too. So it's not like I *never* touch an IDE, but for me its very
>>targeted usages, I can't imagine being in any of them all day.
>>
>>Frank
>>
>>Greg Reddin wrote:
>>
>>>On Dec 9, 2005, at 8:02 AM, Sean Schofield wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Please keep in mind that there are still a good number of people who do
>>>>>not use an IDE at all.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Why on earth would you someone do such a thing? Seriously. I'd like
>>>>to know :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>Bragging rights, what else :-)
>>>
>>>There are occasions when I simply use vi and ant/maven/etc. either
>>>because I'm wanting to be closer to the bits and know what's going on
>>>or I'm too lazy to start Netbeans or because I'm pissed off at
>>>Netbeans. Then as soon as i have to code a JavaBean with a bunch of
>>>gets/sets I'll fire it up. Or do some refactoring, etc.
>>>
>>>So it just depends on my mood. When I feel trapped by the IDE I'll
>>>move it out of the way. When I feel trapped by the command line I fire
>>>up the IDE. Sometimes I like to go without an IDE just so I will not
>>>forget what the IDE is really doing for me.
>>>
>>>And sometimes it's because I'm using a new tool and either the IDE
>>>doesn't support it yet or I'm trying to learn it first before I try to
>>>learn how the IDE wants me to use it. Case in point: Creator and
>>>JSF. On my first JSF app I'm doing it at the command line using
>>>NetBeans for coding and maven to build. Then I'll probably do my next
>>>one in Creator so I can see what kind of value it adds.
>>>
>>>I used to think people who used multiple IDE's had a death wish, but
>>>now I'm seeing the value in that too. For example, Creator is based on
>>>Netbeans 4, but I like some features in Netbeand 5. So I'm starting to
>>>use Creator in places where it makes sense to do so, Netbeans
>>>elsewhere, and maven to compile/run/test everything. I haven't tried
>>>Eclipse yet :-)
>>>
>>>Greg
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>--
>>Frank W. Zammetti
>>Founder and Chief Software Architect
>>Omnytex Technologies
>>http://www.omnytex.com
>>AIM: fzammetti
>>Yahoo: fzammetti
>>MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
>>
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>>
>
>
>
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by netsql <ne...@pointcast.com>.
If you do incrementaled layers.
Like read mail and save it to db, so you write functions:
List lst = mailer.getNewMail(x);
dbxyz.saveMail(lst);
where you do you business work in one class (and you can tell its bus.
since you only import your packages, never other packages in bus. layer).
then 2nd layer you
implement those methods, import mail api and unit test very well, and
granualar.
Here unit testing improves your code.
So lets you get a bug in above.
That means your 2nd layer is not granualr enoug and unit tested.
So if you unit tests pass (or fails as sometimes you gibe it GIGA to
negative test)... and each methods is about 1/2 page and human
redable... how would you possibly write a bug?
It makes sense to me. It realy improves productivity to eliminate
(reduce) debuging IMO.
As opposed to doing this big class that does business and tech layer and
then you have non-readable code. Why put bugs in your code?
.V
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> I don't see how they are comparable though...
>
> Unit testing will tell you if there is a bug
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
I don't see how they are comparable though...
Unit testing will tell you if there is a bug (in either the unit test
code or the code under test), and debugging is how you go about finding
and correcting the bug.
How is one worth less than the other? And what good is unit testing
without debugging after?
Frank
netsql wrote:
> Frank I think deubuging is < unit testing.
>
> Plus it makes your code more readable.
>
> .V
>
>
> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
>
>> netsql wrote:
>> Pros don't waste time on this,
>>
>>> they do this new thing called unit testing ;-). Realy, when somone on
>>> my team is in debuger, I pull them in my office, and required that
>>> they improve test coverage more granular and more layers of
>>> indircection. Debuging is a sign of low productivity in my book.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Wait... Vic, were you actually serious, or was that paragraph meant as
>> a joke? I actually can't tell right now :)
>>
>>> .V
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
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Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by netsql <ne...@pointcast.com>.
Frank I think deubuging is < unit testing.
Plus it makes your code more readable.
.V
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> netsql wrote:
> Pros don't waste time on this,
>> they do this new thing called unit testing ;-). Realy, when somone on
>> my team is in debuger, I pull them in my office, and required that
>> they improve test coverage more granular and more layers of
>> indircection. Debuging is a sign of low productivity in my book.
>
>
>
> Wait... Vic, were you actually serious, or was that paragraph meant as a
> joke? I actually can't tell right now :)
>
>> .V
>
>
>
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
netsql wrote:
> PS: Debug is for corporate newbies. Pros don't waste time on this, they
> do this new thing called unit testing ;-). Realy, when somone on my team
> is in debuger, I pull them in my office, and required that they improve
> test coverage more granular and more layers of indircection. Debuging is
> a sign of low productivity in my book.
Wow, now we can get into a debugging vs. not debugging argument :) LOL
Wait... Vic, were you actually serious, or was that paragraph meant as a
joke? I actually can't tell right now :)
> .V
Frank
>
> Sean Schofield wrote:
> to find out what the IDE haters
>
>> are thinking.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Sean Schofield wrote:
> An IDE can do anything a text editor can do that's for sure.
It's maybe a minor quibble, but I would disagree with that. Go check
the feature set of UltraEdit and find an IDE that has all those
features. I've never seen an IDE with column mode for instance.
Like I said, kind of a minor point because indeed modern IDEs probably
do have *most* of the capabilities of a good text editor, but I wouldn't
say all. :)
> There are certainly cases where an IDE can make you much more
> productive. Sometimes its no better then a text editor but its
> *never* worse.
I would disagree... for me it *is* sometimes, many times actually, worse.
But, <refrain>whatever works for you</refrain> :)
Frank
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by netsql <ne...@pointcast.com>.
Sean Schofield wrote:
> That's a pretty specialized case. I haven't tried it but I don't see
> why not. Most IDE's allow you to plug in your own JDK.
It's not special to work on a JDK before it's supported at all. Eclipse
took a long time to support JDK 5.
Try it, it does not work in eclipse, it says you are using Jdk 6 but are
targeting Java 5. (and the drop down's choice does not include Jdk 6).
>
>
>>Groovy?
>>ObjectiveC?
>>WinFX?
>
>
> Doe your text editor?
Vi does!
Oh and what about... SQL, and the wired XML, like RDF, etc. or bash
scripts, corn?
Plus it helpe to read the "javadoc" to know other way to do something,
not "." thing that is blind.
>
> Have you written a complex multi-threaded application before?
> If so I
> feel sorry for you and your devlopment team. While you are beating
> your heads against a wall trying to figure out which of your 70
> threads are deadlocked I am at the bar having a drink after running
> Threadalyzer.
:-)
And it's intermitent? so you have to log it ;-_?
And w/ focus issues. Focus gets messed up in debugers, right!
Threading is prime example where debuger does not work.
>
> There are certainly cases where an IDE can make you much more
> productive. Sometimes its no better then a text editor but its
> *never* worse.
>
OK, lets say you are hiring somone. One guys says I need an IDE named
"XYZ" to be productive.
Another guy sayz I need Ant, Nant.
Based on this, which do you think is more promissing to deliver and have
to be carried on your team?
(and don't take it too serious, I am just trying to fan your flame)
Here's the IDE kiss of death:
It will take you 95% of the way. But then it's a steep drop to find out
what it did when it cant' do something and you need to fix it and use
non-documented swtiches for example. Or lets say you need to do fancy
dynamic repetable layout.
I live in the 5%.
In order tob e able to fix the 5%, I want to know what the ide did for
me. That's why VS 2005 is realy bad.
So... you won't do Groovy until your IDE supports it?
.V
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Sean Schofield <se...@gmail.com>.
> There are plenty of way to debug. But what if you need to test Java 6
> features BEFORE it's set in stone?
> (Like I tried it, reported a bug w/ JDIC and Sun fixed it).
> Does Java 6 work in your IDE?
That's a pretty specialized case. I haven't tried it but I don't see
why not. Most IDE's allow you to plug in your own JDK.
> Groovy?
> ObjectiveC?
> WinFX?
Doe your text editor? What do you mean by "work?" An IDE can do
anything a text editor can do that's for sure. Like I said earlier, I
use the IDE for refactoring, managing my packages and classpath and
debugging. All of this works fine even if the technology in question
is not built into the IDE.
> Does IDE work on Vista, OSX and Fedora?
> gVim does. (Graphical Visual Editor Improved, aka Vi. Emacs, right,
> whatever)
Fedora for sure. Haven't tried the others but they are written in
Java after all.
> Netbans vs Eclipse. Use Both! Would you rather buy an XBox 360 or waste
> it on some comerical IDE?
My employer pays for my work-related software. I bought my XBox 360
with my own money so no problem there. There are plenty of free IDE's
out there as I have already mentioned.
> PS: Debug is for corporate newbies. Pros don't waste time on this, they
> do this new thing called unit testing ;-). Realy, when somone on my team
> is in debuger, I pull them in my office, and required that they improve
> test coverage more granular and more layers of indircection. Debuging is
> a sign of low productivity in my book.
Well you are entitled to your opinion. I wouldn't consider myself a
java noob. I am certainly aware of unit testing. Have you ever had a
unit test fail that you thought should pass? Ever wonder why?
Debuggers can be helpful. Its not *always* necessary but it can make
you very productive for those 10% of bugs that are difficult to track
down.
Have you written a complex multi-threaded application before? If so I
feel sorry for you and your devlopment team. While you are beating
your heads against a wall trying to figure out which of your 70
threads are deadlocked I am at the bar having a drink after running
Threadalyzer.
There are certainly cases where an IDE can make you much more
productive. Sometimes its no better then a text editor but its
*never* worse.
> .V
sean
sean
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by netsql <ne...@pointcast.com>.
There are plenty of way to debug. But what if you need to test Java 6
features BEFORE it's set in stone?
(Like I tried it, reported a bug w/ JDIC and Sun fixed it).
Does Java 6 work in your IDE?
Groovy?
ObjectiveC?
WinFX?
Does IDE work on Vista, OSX and Fedora?
gVim does. (Graphical Visual Editor Improved, aka Vi. Emacs, right,
whatever)
Netbans vs Eclipse. Use Both! Would you rather buy an XBox 360 or waste
it on some comerical IDE?
PS: Debug is for corporate newbies. Pros don't waste time on this, they
do this new thing called unit testing ;-). Realy, when somone on my team
is in debuger, I pull them in my office, and required that they improve
test coverage more granular and more layers of indircection. Debuging is
a sign of low productivity in my book.
.V
Sean Schofield wrote:
to find out what the IDE haters
> are thinking.
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Re: [OT] Appropriate logging (was IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3))
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
The MailReader WAR from the nightly build deploys just fine, and it
includes the source.
-T.
On 1/4/06, Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> I believe you mean MainMenuAction.java. Yes, that's been checked in.
>
> --
> Martin Cooper
>
>
> On 1/4/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> >
> > Ted, I can't get to SVN from my current location or I would check for
> > myself, but was the issue with that missing class (MainMenu
> > something-or-other I believe) resolved?
> >
> > --
> > Frank W. Zammetti
> > Founder and Chief Software Architect
> > Omnytex Technologies
> > http://www.omnytex.com
> > AIM: fzammetti
> > Yahoo: fzammetti
> > MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
> >
> > On Wed, January 4, 2006 10:36 am, Ted Husted said:
> > > On 12/9/05, Laurie Harper <la...@holoweb.net> wrote:
> > >> Of course in Mailreader, all three roles collapse into one (more or
> > >> less). And, since the logging is there mainly to let someone correlate
> > >> the code with what happens when they run it, it's mostly there as trace
> > >> I suspect (not having looked at the code...)
> > >
> > > If you get a chance, please have a peek at the latest version, to see
> > > if it is line with your own policies. I've been refactoring the code,
> > > and I just now finished an update of the Tour.
> > >
> > > The updated Tour doesn't really speak to the logging code, beyond a
> > > mention of Commons Logging. It would be great if we could explain in
> > > the Tour what we are logging now and why we choose to log it.
> > >
> > > -Ted.
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
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> >
>
>
--
HTH, Ted.
http://www.husted.com/poe/
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Re: [OT] Appropriate logging (was IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3))
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
I believe you mean MainMenuAction.java. Yes, that's been checked in.
--
Martin Cooper
On 1/4/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
> Ted, I can't get to SVN from my current location or I would check for
> myself, but was the issue with that missing class (MainMenu
> something-or-other I believe) resolved?
>
> --
> Frank W. Zammetti
> Founder and Chief Software Architect
> Omnytex Technologies
> http://www.omnytex.com
> AIM: fzammetti
> Yahoo: fzammetti
> MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
>
> On Wed, January 4, 2006 10:36 am, Ted Husted said:
> > On 12/9/05, Laurie Harper <la...@holoweb.net> wrote:
> >> Of course in Mailreader, all three roles collapse into one (more or
> >> less). And, since the logging is there mainly to let someone correlate
> >> the code with what happens when they run it, it's mostly there as trace
> >> I suspect (not having looked at the code...)
> >
> > If you get a chance, please have a peek at the latest version, to see
> > if it is line with your own policies. I've been refactoring the code,
> > and I just now finished an update of the Tour.
> >
> > The updated Tour doesn't really speak to the logging code, beyond a
> > mention of Commons Logging. It would be great if we could explain in
> > the Tour what we are logging now and why we choose to log it.
> >
> > -Ted.
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [OT] Appropriate logging (was IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in
MailReader 1.3))
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Ted, I can't get to SVN from my current location or I would check for
myself, but was the issue with that missing class (MainMenu
something-or-other I believe) resolved?
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
On Wed, January 4, 2006 10:36 am, Ted Husted said:
> On 12/9/05, Laurie Harper <la...@holoweb.net> wrote:
>> Of course in Mailreader, all three roles collapse into one (more or
>> less). And, since the logging is there mainly to let someone correlate
>> the code with what happens when they run it, it's mostly there as trace
>> I suspect (not having looked at the code...)
>
> If you get a chance, please have a peek at the latest version, to see
> if it is line with your own policies. I've been refactoring the code,
> and I just now finished an update of the Tour.
>
> The updated Tour doesn't really speak to the logging code, beyond a
> mention of Commons Logging. It would be great if we could explain in
> the Tour what we are logging now and why we choose to log it.
>
> -Ted.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [OT] Appropriate logging (was IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3))
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 12/9/05, Laurie Harper <la...@holoweb.net> wrote:
> Of course in Mailreader, all three roles collapse into one (more or
> less). And, since the logging is there mainly to let someone correlate
> the code with what happens when they run it, it's mostly there as trace
> I suspect (not having looked at the code...)
If you get a chance, please have a peek at the latest version, to see
if it is line with your own policies. I've been refactoring the code,
and I just now finished an update of the Tour.
The updated Tour doesn't really speak to the logging code, beyond a
mention of Commons Logging. It would be great if we could explain in
the Tour what we are logging now and why we choose to log it.
-Ted.
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Re: [OT] Appropriate logging (was IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in
MailReader 1.3))
Posted by Laurie Harper <la...@holoweb.net>.
Is this taking the discussion further off topic or bringing it back
towards it's starting point? ;-) Frank's comments below go more to the
heart of what logging should or shouldn't be used for, which has been a
bug-bear of mine for a while...
The key thing is to remember, when writing log statements, who will be
*reading* them. There are three groups to consider: the developer, the
'end user admin' (i.e. your customer's admin guy, etc.) and, when
something breaks in an unexpected way, the tech support staff.
The log should be 99% things that make sense to the 'end user admin' guy
-- in other words, it should contain logging messages that tell them
things they need to know, either to verify the system is working
correctly or to figure out how to fix it w/out calling tech support.
Anything that's only meaningful to someone who has the source code to
look at should be debug/trace level, and shouldn't be enabled by
default. Those logs are for the developer during the code/test cycle, or
during post-production diagnostic exercises. That can be an important
thing to be able to turn on in production if you can't reproduce a
problem in a test environment, but they're only interesting to someone
responsible for diagnosing and/or fixing a problem.
The third group, tech support staff, is sort of a cross-cutting concern
;-) I generally use 'info' level logging for this sort of thing. Stuff
like logging life-cycle events and key changes in overall system state.
The goal is to allow someone with sufficient familiarity with how the
app should be running to spot why it's not behaving in an expected way
*assuming the problem is not a bug*. In other words, it lets first level
technical support figure out that feature X isn't working because config
options Y has the wrong value. Debug and trace level logging shouldn't
come into it until tech support has escalated the problem to engineering
and the dev team, after examining all the logs, realizes that they can't
tell what's gone wrong ;-)
Of course in Mailreader, all three roles collapse into one (more or
less). And, since the logging is there mainly to let someone correlate
the code with what happens when they run it, it's mostly there as trace
I suspect (not having looked at the code...)
L.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> My tact has always been that trace statement should only be used to
> trace entry, and perhaps exit, from a method. Anything within a method
> is either debug or info as appropriate, with error and fatal being
> self-explanatory.
>
> My reasoning is simply that if I have a particularly thorny issue I'm
> trying to work out, I like having a complete trace where the code went,
> and especially when its in log format I can print it out and take it to
> lunch to trace through if need be. Frequently you only really need the
> debug messages though.
>
> Don's comment about leaving "Action was called"-type statements to the
> framework is reasonable. I would typically have a trace message as the
> first thing in an Action, just because I don't want to absolutely trust
> that the Action was actually called, i.e., maybe the log message where
> the framework says Action A is being called has three lines between it
> and the actual call, in which case it could be misleading. I wouldn't
> go nuts if I didn't see such a trace message though. Should it be
> considered a "best practice" to have such a message? I could argue that
> a user of a framework doesn't necessarily know what logging the
> framework itself will put it and therefore they shouldn't assume they
> will get what they need. It's a debatable point though.
>
> My other tact is that I put a debug message in before and sometimes
> after a statement that I know could fail, or more importantly that might
> not itself fail but that could blow something up down the line. Many
> times this isn't just "about to do something dangerous"... for instance,
> in the call to doGetUser() below, assuming that might fail if session
> was null, I might put:
>
> log.debug("Getting user from session " + session):
>
> ...before it, and then:
>
> log.debug("user = " + user);
>
> ...after it.
>
> In fact, the second one I might put at info level... when an app is in
> production, nothing is more annoying than when a problem occurs and you
> realize you aren't logging enough to get anywhere in solving it! Of
> course your going to try and replicate it in a dev/QA environment with
> full logging on, but how many times does a user complain about something
> and you can't replicate it? Then, whatever logging the app does at
> production level is all you have. Naturally, prudency is important though.
>
> Frank
>
> Ted Husted wrote:
>> On 12/9/05, Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd like to see the logging taken down a notch, but perhaps not
>>> completely out.
>>> IMO, Mailreader is there to demonstrate Struts best practices and
>>> the logging
>>> statements everywhere make one wonder :) Besides, it gives a false
>>> impression
>>> Actions need to be long and detailed. I'd rather see if we can get
>>> those
>>> Actions down under 10 lines each. Leave "*Action was called"-type
>>> statements to
>>> the framework.
>>
>>
>> As of this week, most of them are, and we're using real Dispatch
>> actions. Here's the Edit method from RegistrationAction, for example.
>>
>> public ActionForward Edit(
>> ActionMapping mapping,
>> ActionForm form,
>> HttpServletRequest request,
>> HttpServletResponse response)
>> throws Exception {
>>
>> final String method = Constants.EDIT;
>> doLogProcess(mapping,method);
>>
>> HttpSession session = request.getSession();
>> User user = doGetUser(session);
>> boolean updating = (user!=null);
>> if (updating) {
>> doPopulate(form,user);
>> }
>>
>> doSaveToken(request);
>> return doFindSuccess(mapping);
>> }
>>
>> The logging is pushed back into helper methods, but some of the
>> helpers are more logging than logic:
>>
>> protected void doSaveToken(HttpServletRequest request) {
>> if (log.isTraceEnabled()) {
>> log.trace(Constants.LOG_TOKEN);
>> }
>> saveToken(request);
>> }
>>
>>
>> I'm thinking we should do things like log the complete stack trace for
>> exceptions we catch, and such, but retaining all the tracing
>> statements we now have, just makes it harder to see the trees. I don't
>> know if I would leave a trace statement for creating a transactional
>> token in a production application.
>>
>> -Ted.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
My tact has always been that trace statement should only be used to
trace entry, and perhaps exit, from a method. Anything within a method
is either debug or info as appropriate, with error and fatal being
self-explanatory.
My reasoning is simply that if I have a particularly thorny issue I'm
trying to work out, I like having a complete trace where the code went,
and especially when its in log format I can print it out and take it to
lunch to trace through if need be. Frequently you only really need the
debug messages though.
Don's comment about leaving "Action was called"-type statements to the
framework is reasonable. I would typically have a trace message as the
first thing in an Action, just because I don't want to absolutely trust
that the Action was actually called, i.e., maybe the log message where
the framework says Action A is being called has three lines between it
and the actual call, in which case it could be misleading. I wouldn't
go nuts if I didn't see such a trace message though. Should it be
considered a "best practice" to have such a message? I could argue that
a user of a framework doesn't necessarily know what logging the
framework itself will put it and therefore they shouldn't assume they
will get what they need. It's a debatable point though.
My other tact is that I put a debug message in before and sometimes
after a statement that I know could fail, or more importantly that might
not itself fail but that could blow something up down the line. Many
times this isn't just "about to do something dangerous"... for instance,
in the call to doGetUser() below, assuming that might fail if session
was null, I might put:
log.debug("Getting user from session " + session):
...before it, and then:
log.debug("user = " + user);
...after it.
In fact, the second one I might put at info level... when an app is in
production, nothing is more annoying than when a problem occurs and you
realize you aren't logging enough to get anywhere in solving it! Of
course your going to try and replicate it in a dev/QA environment with
full logging on, but how many times does a user complain about something
and you can't replicate it? Then, whatever logging the app does at
production level is all you have. Naturally, prudency is important though.
Frank
Ted Husted wrote:
> On 12/9/05, Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org> wrote:
>
>>I'd like to see the logging taken down a notch, but perhaps not completely out.
>> IMO, Mailreader is there to demonstrate Struts best practices and the logging
>>statements everywhere make one wonder :) Besides, it gives a false impression
>>Actions need to be long and detailed. I'd rather see if we can get those
>>Actions down under 10 lines each. Leave "*Action was called"-type statements to
>>the framework.
>
>
> As of this week, most of them are, and we're using real Dispatch
> actions. Here's the Edit method from RegistrationAction, for example.
>
> public ActionForward Edit(
> ActionMapping mapping,
> ActionForm form,
> HttpServletRequest request,
> HttpServletResponse response)
> throws Exception {
>
> final String method = Constants.EDIT;
> doLogProcess(mapping,method);
>
> HttpSession session = request.getSession();
> User user = doGetUser(session);
> boolean updating = (user!=null);
> if (updating) {
> doPopulate(form,user);
> }
>
> doSaveToken(request);
> return doFindSuccess(mapping);
> }
>
> The logging is pushed back into helper methods, but some of the
> helpers are more logging than logic:
>
> protected void doSaveToken(HttpServletRequest request) {
> if (log.isTraceEnabled()) {
> log.trace(Constants.LOG_TOKEN);
> }
> saveToken(request);
> }
>
>
> I'm thinking we should do things like log the complete stack trace for
> exceptions we catch, and such, but retaining all the tracing
> statements we now have, just makes it harder to see the trees. I don't
> know if I would leave a trace statement for creating a transactional
> token in a production application.
>
> -Ted.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 12/9/05, Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org> wrote:
> I'd like to see the logging taken down a notch, but perhaps not completely out.
> IMO, Mailreader is there to demonstrate Struts best practices and the logging
> statements everywhere make one wonder :) Besides, it gives a false impression
> Actions need to be long and detailed. I'd rather see if we can get those
> Actions down under 10 lines each. Leave "*Action was called"-type statements to
> the framework.
As of this week, most of them are, and we're using real Dispatch
actions. Here's the Edit method from RegistrationAction, for example.
public ActionForward Edit(
ActionMapping mapping,
ActionForm form,
HttpServletRequest request,
HttpServletResponse response)
throws Exception {
final String method = Constants.EDIT;
doLogProcess(mapping,method);
HttpSession session = request.getSession();
User user = doGetUser(session);
boolean updating = (user!=null);
if (updating) {
doPopulate(form,user);
}
doSaveToken(request);
return doFindSuccess(mapping);
}
The logging is pushed back into helper methods, but some of the
helpers are more logging than logic:
protected void doSaveToken(HttpServletRequest request) {
if (log.isTraceEnabled()) {
log.trace(Constants.LOG_TOKEN);
}
saveToken(request);
}
I'm thinking we should do things like log the complete stack trace for
exceptions we catch, and such, but retaining all the tracing
statements we now have, just makes it harder to see the trees. I don't
know if I would leave a trace statement for creating a transactional
token in a production application.
-Ted.
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Hmm... I set that, did a clean-all, then tried build-all again, but now
the build seemed to lock up trying to get the 1.2.8 JAR... I went to the
store for about an hour and when I came back it hadn't completed and was
on that step. Then, Windows started complaining about running out of
virtual memory. I'm going to reboot and try again, but wanted to
mention it quick before I do.
Frank
Wendy Smoak wrote:
> On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
>>Bad news though... check this out...
>>
>>
>>The system is out of resources.
>>Consult the following stack trace for details.
>>java.lang.OutOfMemoryError
>>+----------------------------------------
>>| Building nightlies Struts Site
>>| Memory: 253M/254M
>>+----------------------------------------
>
>
> Not unusual. :) It's running out of memory building the website. Try setting:
>
> MAVEN_OPTS=-Xmx1024m
>
> --
> Wendy
>
>
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Wendy Smoak <ws...@gmail.com>.
On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> Bad news though... check this out...
>
>
> The system is out of resources.
> Consult the following stack trace for details.
> java.lang.OutOfMemoryError
> +----------------------------------------
> | Building nightlies Struts Site
> | Memory: 253M/254M
> +----------------------------------------
Not unusual. :) It's running out of memory building the website. Try setting:
MAVEN_OPTS=-Xmx1024m
--
Wendy
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Bad news though... check this out...
The system is out of resources.
Consult the following stack trace for details.
java.lang.OutOfMemoryError
+----------------------------------------
| Building nightlies Struts Site
| Memory: 253M/254M
+----------------------------------------
build:start:
dist:build-setup:
[mkdir] Created dir: F:\struts_current\site\target\distributions
xdoc:init:
[mkdir] Created dir: F:\struts_current\site\target\generated-xdocs
[mkdir] Created dir: F:\struts_current\site\target\docs
java:prepare-filesystem:
[mkdir] Created dir: F:\struts_current\site\target\classes
java:compile:
[echo] Compiling to F:\struts_current\build\..\site/target/classes
[echo] No java source files to compile.
java:jar-resources:
test:prepare-filesystem:
[mkdir] Created dir: F:\struts_current\site\target\test-classes
[mkdir] Created dir: F:\struts_current\site\target\test-reports
Starting the reactor...
BUILD FAILED
File...... F:\struts_current\build\maven.xml
Element... maven:reactor
Line...... 76
Column.... 32
java.lang.OutOfMemoryError
Total time: 40 minutes 22 seconds
Finished at: Fri Dec 09 12:19:46 EST 2005
Now, it did create the 1.3 JARs and put it in my repo, so I got what I
needed out of it anyway, I should be able to now go and build mailreader
(it didn't here), but OufOfMemoryError ain't good :) I guess I woul
dneed to incrase the default JVM size? If so, I would suggest this
being in build instructions somehere... better yet, could it be done
from Maven itself?
Frank
Ted Husted wrote:
> On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
>>(Wow, you guys weren't kidding, the build is taking FOREVER! I've done
>>it before a few months back, but I don't remember it taking this long...
>> I guess all the restructuring and such has an impact).
>
>
> It's building and acquiring all the JARS for all the subprojects, both
> ours and theirs.
>
> Before we had Maven, you could easily spend an hour tracking down all
> the JARs we needed to use by hand. It does take a few minutes, but it
> saves several times that.
>
> -Ted.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
> .
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> (Wow, you guys weren't kidding, the build is taking FOREVER! I've done
> it before a few months back, but I don't remember it taking this long...
> I guess all the restructuring and such has an impact).
It's building and acquiring all the JARS for all the subprojects, both
ours and theirs.
Before we had Maven, you could easily spend an hour tracking down all
the JARs we needed to use by hand. It does take a few minutes, but it
saves several times that.
-Ted.
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
I'm doing a build-all right now so that I can take a look at
mailreader... I admit I haven't really looked at mailreader before much,
so I'm not familiar with how much logging is in there (maybe a good
thing to not be going in with any preconconceived notions). I'm a fan
of logging, but I agree that too much can get in the way (not to mention
potentially hurt performance). I'm hoping I can offer some suggestions
on what messages are superfluous and which should probably stay, at
least as a more concrete starting point for discussion.
(Wow, you guys weren't kidding, the build is taking FOREVER! I've done
it before a few months back, but I don't remember it taking this long...
I guess all the restructuring and such has an impact).
Frank
Don Brown wrote:
> Ted Husted wrote:
>
>> This thread started with a comment that we should leave the debug
>> logging in MailReader to appeal to the "lowest common denominator".
>> But, I think this thread shows that extensive logging appeals to the
>> other end of the spectrum :)
>
>
> I'd like to see the logging taken down a notch, but perhaps not
> completely out. IMO, Mailreader is there to demonstrate Struts best
> practices and the logging statements everywhere make one wonder :)
> Besides, it gives a false impression Actions need to be long and
> detailed. I'd rather see if we can get those Actions down under 10
> lines each. Leave "*Action was called"-type statements to the framework.
>
> Don
>
>>
>> -Ted.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org>.
Ted Husted wrote:
> This thread started with a comment that we should leave the debug
> logging in MailReader to appeal to the "lowest common denominator".
> But, I think this thread shows that extensive logging appeals to the
> other end of the spectrum :)
I'd like to see the logging taken down a notch, but perhaps not completely out.
IMO, Mailreader is there to demonstrate Struts best practices and the logging
statements everywhere make one wonder :) Besides, it gives a false impression
Actions need to be long and detailed. I'd rather see if we can get those
Actions down under 10 lines each. Leave "*Action was called"-type statements to
the framework.
Don
>
> -Ted.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Ted Husted wrote:
> On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
>>I long ago stopped trying to convince anyone that they should do things my way,
>
>
> I don't think a lot of people could :)
>
> After all, how many developers can
>
>
>>look at the code for a little while and then say "ok, change X to Y and try it."
>
>
> I think the point of IDEs is to turn us all into Frank Zammetti's,
> except that we need the IDE to do the staring for us :)
Or, perhaps more precisely, to do the guessing for you :) It's just
that after a long enough time, ones' guesses tend to be right more often
than not :)
In light of this whole conversation, I'm not so sure I like being
compared to an IDE :) LOL
You know, I will tell one such story because I think it's one of the
better ones...
My senior year in high school, my school actually had COBOL and Pascal
classes! A friend of mine was taking Pascal at the time. Now, at that
point, I had never in my life seen Pascal. Once day he hands me a 2
page printout of a program he's working on and tells me something isn't
working (I don't recall what the problem was, but the point here is that
it wound up being part syntactical and part logic flow)... anyway, I
stared at it for a few minutes and finally suggested a few changes to
make. Long story short, he tried it next period and it worked!
I learned that day that the basic concepts underlying programming don't
change very much from language to language, the rest of it is just
relatively minor syntax differences (for the most part).
> This thread started with a comment that we should leave the debug
> logging in MailReader to appeal to the "lowest common denominator".
> But, I think this thread shows that extensive logging appeals to the
> other end of the spectrum :)
:)
> -Ted.
Frank
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> I long ago stopped trying to convince anyone that they should do things my way,
I don't think a lot of people could :)
After all, how many developers can
> look at the code for a little while and then say "ok, change X to Y and try it."
I think the point of IDEs is to turn us all into Frank Zammetti's,
except that we need the IDE to do the staring for us :)
This thread started with a comment that we should leave the debug
logging in MailReader to appeal to the "lowest common denominator".
But, I think this thread shows that extensive logging appeals to the
other end of the spectrum :)
-Ted.
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Sean Schofield wrote:
> I don't buy the argument that IDE's are slow. I agreed with
> that argument when the first java based IDE's emerged in the 90's but
> we're way past that point. You can also turn off most of the
> questionably helpful stuff that you are complaining about.
Then what would be the point of an IDE? :) I mean, if I have to turn
off all the neat little doodads that make it an IDE just to make it run
well enough to use, why wouldn't a native text editor suffice?
And, remember that speed is a subjective judgement, it's not an argument
you can "buy" or not :) What's slow to one person is blazing to another
(except in the extreme cases where it's obvious to all). Some people
argue that the extra tools, automatic refactoring and all that, more
than makes up for an extra second for a context menu to appear. I don't
think I disagree with that, but it's so frustrating to me to have to
wait for those little things that any efficinecy gains elsewhere aren't
worth it.
> My 2 cents. You are free to use whatever you want of course. Just
> thought it would be a fun Friday topic to find out what the IDE haters
> are thinking. I'm pretty comfortable sticking with mine but whatever
> "flips your boat."
Completely agreed. Some people get very religious about this IDE or
that text editor or whatever, and they annoy the hell out of me. I long
ago stopped trying to convince anyone that they should do things my way,
it's pointless (not because I can't convince them, just that it's
pointless to want to in the first place). If your comfortable in an
environment and can be most effective in it, it's all good. I
personally am not a fan of *nix. There I said it! I prefer Windows!
But I realize some people absolutely love it and work better in it, and
that's great and OK with me.
> sean
Frank
>
> On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
>>That's a good point Greg, and it applies for me too... I have a number
>>of different IDEs installed, and on occassion I will use a feature of
>>one or another... I've pulled stuff into IDEA and used its code
>>inspectors for example. I've used an Eclipse plug-in here and there
>>too. So it's not like I *never* touch an IDE, but for me its very
>>targeted usages, I can't imagine being in any of them all day.
>>
>>Frank
>>
>>Greg Reddin wrote:
>>
>>>On Dec 9, 2005, at 8:02 AM, Sean Schofield wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Please keep in mind that there are still a good number of people who do
>>>>>not use an IDE at all.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Why on earth would you someone do such a thing? Seriously. I'd like
>>>>to know :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>Bragging rights, what else :-)
>>>
>>>There are occasions when I simply use vi and ant/maven/etc. either
>>>because I'm wanting to be closer to the bits and know what's going on
>>>or I'm too lazy to start Netbeans or because I'm pissed off at
>>>Netbeans. Then as soon as i have to code a JavaBean with a bunch of
>>>gets/sets I'll fire it up. Or do some refactoring, etc.
>>>
>>>So it just depends on my mood. When I feel trapped by the IDE I'll
>>>move it out of the way. When I feel trapped by the command line I fire
>>>up the IDE. Sometimes I like to go without an IDE just so I will not
>>>forget what the IDE is really doing for me.
>>>
>>>And sometimes it's because I'm using a new tool and either the IDE
>>>doesn't support it yet or I'm trying to learn it first before I try to
>>>learn how the IDE wants me to use it. Case in point: Creator and
>>>JSF. On my first JSF app I'm doing it at the command line using
>>>NetBeans for coding and maven to build. Then I'll probably do my next
>>>one in Creator so I can see what kind of value it adds.
>>>
>>>I used to think people who used multiple IDE's had a death wish, but
>>>now I'm seeing the value in that too. For example, Creator is based on
>>>Netbeans 4, but I like some features in Netbeand 5. So I'm starting to
>>>use Creator in places where it makes sense to do so, Netbeans
>>>elsewhere, and maven to compile/run/test everything. I haven't tried
>>>Eclipse yet :-)
>>>
>>>Greg
>>>
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>--
>>Frank W. Zammetti
>>Founder and Chief Software Architect
>>Omnytex Technologies
>>http://www.omnytex.com
>>AIM: fzammetti
>>Yahoo: fzammetti
>>MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Sean Schofield <se...@gmail.com>.
Ummm... I guess you guys don't do a lot of debugging then? You would
rather imagine what a value was a certain point in time rather then
actually know what is was? If you never make mistakes then there is
no issue but if you think a value is 'x' it only take 5 seconds to be
100% sure. Of course there is System.out.println but are you going to
add those for all 10, 15 values in question?
I agree that a lot of IDE features are overrated. I'm also not a big
fan of Eclipse either but that is not the only IDE. There are some
things an IDE gives you that I think you're crazy to miss out on.
Managing all of your packages and classpaths is trivial. Then there
are the refactoring tools.
I don't know if it makes sense to use a text editor just because you
are "mad at your IDE." Maybe you should get a better IDE? Try
JBuilder 2005. The free version does everything you vi lovers would
need. I don't buy the argument that IDE's are slow. I agreed with
that argument when the first java based IDE's emerged in the 90's but
we're way past that point. You can also turn off most of the
questionably helpful stuff that you are complaining about.
My 2 cents. You are free to use whatever you want of course. Just
thought it would be a fun Friday topic to find out what the IDE haters
are thinking. I'm pretty comfortable sticking with mine but whatever
"flips your boat."
sean
On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> That's a good point Greg, and it applies for me too... I have a number
> of different IDEs installed, and on occassion I will use a feature of
> one or another... I've pulled stuff into IDEA and used its code
> inspectors for example. I've used an Eclipse plug-in here and there
> too. So it's not like I *never* touch an IDE, but for me its very
> targeted usages, I can't imagine being in any of them all day.
>
> Frank
>
> Greg Reddin wrote:
> >
> > On Dec 9, 2005, at 8:02 AM, Sean Schofield wrote:
> >
> >>> Please keep in mind that there are still a good number of people who do
> >>> not use an IDE at all.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Why on earth would you someone do such a thing? Seriously. I'd like
> >> to know :-)
> >
> >
> > Bragging rights, what else :-)
> >
> > There are occasions when I simply use vi and ant/maven/etc. either
> > because I'm wanting to be closer to the bits and know what's going on
> > or I'm too lazy to start Netbeans or because I'm pissed off at
> > Netbeans. Then as soon as i have to code a JavaBean with a bunch of
> > gets/sets I'll fire it up. Or do some refactoring, etc.
> >
> > So it just depends on my mood. When I feel trapped by the IDE I'll
> > move it out of the way. When I feel trapped by the command line I fire
> > up the IDE. Sometimes I like to go without an IDE just so I will not
> > forget what the IDE is really doing for me.
> >
> > And sometimes it's because I'm using a new tool and either the IDE
> > doesn't support it yet or I'm trying to learn it first before I try to
> > learn how the IDE wants me to use it. Case in point: Creator and
> > JSF. On my first JSF app I'm doing it at the command line using
> > NetBeans for coding and maven to build. Then I'll probably do my next
> > one in Creator so I can see what kind of value it adds.
> >
> > I used to think people who used multiple IDE's had a death wish, but
> > now I'm seeing the value in that too. For example, Creator is based on
> > Netbeans 4, but I like some features in Netbeand 5. So I'm starting to
> > use Creator in places where it makes sense to do so, Netbeans
> > elsewhere, and maven to compile/run/test everything. I haven't tried
> > Eclipse yet :-)
> >
> > Greg
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Frank W. Zammetti
> Founder and Chief Software Architect
> Omnytex Technologies
> http://www.omnytex.com
> AIM: fzammetti
> Yahoo: fzammetti
> MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
That's a good point Greg, and it applies for me too... I have a number
of different IDEs installed, and on occassion I will use a feature of
one or another... I've pulled stuff into IDEA and used its code
inspectors for example. I've used an Eclipse plug-in here and there
too. So it's not like I *never* touch an IDE, but for me its very
targeted usages, I can't imagine being in any of them all day.
Frank
Greg Reddin wrote:
>
> On Dec 9, 2005, at 8:02 AM, Sean Schofield wrote:
>
>>> Please keep in mind that there are still a good number of people who do
>>> not use an IDE at all.
>>>
>>
>> Why on earth would you someone do such a thing? Seriously. I'd like
>> to know :-)
>
>
> Bragging rights, what else :-)
>
> There are occasions when I simply use vi and ant/maven/etc. either
> because I'm wanting to be closer to the bits and know what's going on
> or I'm too lazy to start Netbeans or because I'm pissed off at
> Netbeans. Then as soon as i have to code a JavaBean with a bunch of
> gets/sets I'll fire it up. Or do some refactoring, etc.
>
> So it just depends on my mood. When I feel trapped by the IDE I'll
> move it out of the way. When I feel trapped by the command line I fire
> up the IDE. Sometimes I like to go without an IDE just so I will not
> forget what the IDE is really doing for me.
>
> And sometimes it's because I'm using a new tool and either the IDE
> doesn't support it yet or I'm trying to learn it first before I try to
> learn how the IDE wants me to use it. Case in point: Creator and
> JSF. On my first JSF app I'm doing it at the command line using
> NetBeans for coding and maven to build. Then I'll probably do my next
> one in Creator so I can see what kind of value it adds.
>
> I used to think people who used multiple IDE's had a death wish, but
> now I'm seeing the value in that too. For example, Creator is based on
> Netbeans 4, but I like some features in Netbeand 5. So I'm starting to
> use Creator in places where it makes sense to do so, Netbeans
> elsewhere, and maven to compile/run/test everything. I haven't tried
> Eclipse yet :-)
>
> Greg
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Greg Reddin <gr...@apache.org>.
On Dec 9, 2005, at 8:02 AM, Sean Schofield wrote:
>> Please keep in mind that there are still a good number of people
>> who do
>> not use an IDE at all.
>>
>
> Why on earth would you someone do such a thing? Seriously. I'd like
> to know :-)
Bragging rights, what else :-)
There are occasions when I simply use vi and ant/maven/etc. either
because I'm wanting to be closer to the bits and know what's going on
or I'm too lazy to start Netbeans or because I'm pissed off at
Netbeans. Then as soon as i have to code a JavaBean with a bunch of
gets/sets I'll fire it up. Or do some refactoring, etc.
So it just depends on my mood. When I feel trapped by the IDE I'll
move it out of the way. When I feel trapped by the command line I
fire up the IDE. Sometimes I like to go without an IDE just so I
will not forget what the IDE is really doing for me.
And sometimes it's because I'm using a new tool and either the IDE
doesn't support it yet or I'm trying to learn it first before I try
to learn how the IDE wants me to use it. Case in point: Creator and
JSF. On my first JSF app I'm doing it at the command line using
NetBeans for coding and maven to build. Then I'll probably do my
next one in Creator so I can see what kind of value it adds.
I used to think people who used multiple IDE's had a death wish, but
now I'm seeing the value in that too. For example, Creator is based
on Netbeans 4, but I like some features in Netbeand 5. So I'm
starting to use Creator in places where it makes sense to do so,
Netbeans elsewhere, and maven to compile/run/test everything. I
haven't tried Eclipse yet :-)
Greg
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by Paul Speed <ps...@progeeks.com>.
Amen.
At work I'm fond of saying "Eclipse is the devil". :) It gives you tons
of power (tons!) and then every now and then sends you on a two hour
hunt to figure why the right jars aren't getting picked up or some weird
auto-format thing that can't be turned off (yet in this version or
whatever). Or you spend a day or two trying to figure out how to get
some plug-in working right.
Yes, it is great. I just haven't personally needed the power yet. All
of those years of learning refactoring tricks, etc.. However, I figure
the first major refactoring I have to do that isn't covered by my tricks
and requires lots of balls in the air... that's when it will hook me.
Because that's how it got most of the other guys.
And I'd probably still try IDEA first. :) The bottom line is that I'm
still more productive without at this point. Though being able to have
the CVS annotate information in the left margin has almost sent me there
several times. The devil knows each of our weaknesses.
So, an expanded "me too".
-Paul
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> You realize of course that such a topic can only lead to an IDE war :) LOL!
>
> I've tried I think every major IDE out there, as well as plenty of
> lesser known ones. Some I've maybe not given a fair shake to because I
> found something that I *really* didn't like right away, but most of them
> I've spent considerable time with to get a fair impression.
>
> First, you have to remember that I've been coding a *long* time, and as
> such I've become extremely comfortable and, more importantly, effective,
> in the way I work. I can tell you from experience that I tend to work a
> lot faster than most other developers that I've been able to compare
> myself to (note that I'm not saying I'm *better* or anything, just that
> I tend to be *faster* than most). I've very much a train-of-thought
> person, if I'm in a groove I can churn work out with the best of'em.
>
> What all this means is that if a tool gets in my way *at all*, I tend to
> spurn it. Even if the tool may have some advantage in some other way,
> the first time it slows me down even a little it's pretty much over.
>
> I have not yet met an IDE that doesn't get in my way. Some are
> definitely worse than other (RAD), and some are pretty close to useable
> for me (IDEA).
>
> Simple thing bug the s**t out of me... if I right-click on something and
> a response isn't *immediate*, it kills me. If it chews on my source
> files for a few seconds every time I try and view one, that kills me
> (yes, I know it's analyzing to give me code insight and such, but still).
>
> Also, if it does TOO MUCH work for me, I can't stand it. I used to not
> want *anything* done for me, but I've kind of changed my mind a bit
> there... where I used to want to write my own getters and setters, I'm
> happy to let some tool do it for me now (although for me it's a custom
> UltraEdit macro).
>
> Also, I can't stand IDEs that throw all sorts of proprietary stuff into
> the mix... RAD is the worst in this regard. If someone with a different
> IDE, or no IDE at all, can't come along and build my code, than the IDE
> has insinuated itself into my code, and that's unacceptable. This used
> to be a bigger problem, but admittedly it doesn't seem to be as bad now
> (and IDEA is actually very good in this regard in that I can set it up
> to be completely independant of my code, one of the reasons its *close*
> for me).
>
> The other problem that goes along with the speed issue is that most of
> them that I've tried have been Java-based, and I don't care what anyone
> says but Java desktop apps are still sluggish, even on high-end
> hardware. Oh yes, it's leaps and bounds better than it was, no question
> about it, and I'm amazed at how good some Java apps actually are. But
> in an IDE, I notice all the little delays here and there, and they add
> up for me. Again, a tool can't get in your way or it's counterproductive.
>
> Now, about all those nifty-keen plug-ins most IDEs have... yes, I admit,
> I get plug-in envy at times :) But frankly I've found that most of them
> I wouldn't use anyway because its just as fast to do it myself, or close
> enough to be acceptable, and I definitely prefer knowing what's
> happening every step of the way then trusting something to hack my code.
> I've seen too many instances over the years of something screwing up
> code worse than it ever would have helped.
>
> Which brings me to my last point... where I sit at work, I am near some
> people that are historically big RAD fans. However, over the past few
> months, as they've tried to have RAD do more and more for them, every
> single day without fail I overhear a conversation talking about how RAD
> screwed up this config file, or it wouldn't compile something for some
> reason that no one can explain, or it just generally wasn't cooperating.
> Now, if I had only ever heard these complaints about RAD I'd just say
> IBM screwed the pooch (it did) and it was unique to that IDE... but I
> *constantly* hear similar stories about other IDEs as well. Most anyone
> that is an IDE proponent has war stories along those lines (some have
> been lucky and haven't been burned much, others are constantly being
> burned).
>
> But, all that being said, I believe using an IDE or not, or which IDE or
> other tools you use, is a completely personal thing. My guys at work
> get to use whatever tools they want, with only one caveat: it all has to
> boil down to an Ant script that anyone can run from a simple command
> line, and the actual code must be completely agnostic about development
> environment. This is fairly easy to accomplish, and makes it so that 10
> different developers with 10 different toolset preference can work on
> the same code without difficulty.
>
> To me, whatever is most effective for you is perfectly OK. I'm not
> going to try and convince anyone one way or another. And while I will
> continue to try various IDEs as I have the opportunity, so far none
> allow me to work as efficiently as a copy of UltraEdit, Directory Opus,
> Ant and a command line... those are the four windows open on my PC every
> minute of every day, and I wouldn't (at this point) have it any other
> way :)
>
> Frank
>
> Sean Schofield wrote:
>
>>> Please keep in mind that there are still a good number of people who do
>>> not use an IDE at all.
>>
>>
>>
>> Why on earth would you someone do such a thing? Seriously. I'd like
>> to know :-)
>>
>>
>>> Frank W. Zammetti
>>
>>
>>
>> sean
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [OT] IDE Haters (Was Re: Logging in MailReader 1.3)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
You realize of course that such a topic can only lead to an IDE war :) LOL!
I've tried I think every major IDE out there, as well as plenty of
lesser known ones. Some I've maybe not given a fair shake to because I
found something that I *really* didn't like right away, but most of them
I've spent considerable time with to get a fair impression.
First, you have to remember that I've been coding a *long* time, and as
such I've become extremely comfortable and, more importantly, effective,
in the way I work. I can tell you from experience that I tend to work a
lot faster than most other developers that I've been able to compare
myself to (note that I'm not saying I'm *better* or anything, just that
I tend to be *faster* than most). I've very much a train-of-thought
person, if I'm in a groove I can churn work out with the best of'em.
What all this means is that if a tool gets in my way *at all*, I tend to
spurn it. Even if the tool may have some advantage in some other way,
the first time it slows me down even a little it's pretty much over.
I have not yet met an IDE that doesn't get in my way. Some are
definitely worse than other (RAD), and some are pretty close to useable
for me (IDEA).
Simple thing bug the s**t out of me... if I right-click on something and
a response isn't *immediate*, it kills me. If it chews on my source
files for a few seconds every time I try and view one, that kills me
(yes, I know it's analyzing to give me code insight and such, but still).
Also, if it does TOO MUCH work for me, I can't stand it. I used to not
want *anything* done for me, but I've kind of changed my mind a bit
there... where I used to want to write my own getters and setters, I'm
happy to let some tool do it for me now (although for me it's a custom
UltraEdit macro).
Also, I can't stand IDEs that throw all sorts of proprietary stuff into
the mix... RAD is the worst in this regard. If someone with a different
IDE, or no IDE at all, can't come along and build my code, than the IDE
has insinuated itself into my code, and that's unacceptable. This used
to be a bigger problem, but admittedly it doesn't seem to be as bad now
(and IDEA is actually very good in this regard in that I can set it up
to be completely independant of my code, one of the reasons its *close*
for me).
The other problem that goes along with the speed issue is that most of
them that I've tried have been Java-based, and I don't care what anyone
says but Java desktop apps are still sluggish, even on high-end
hardware. Oh yes, it's leaps and bounds better than it was, no question
about it, and I'm amazed at how good some Java apps actually are. But
in an IDE, I notice all the little delays here and there, and they add
up for me. Again, a tool can't get in your way or it's counterproductive.
Now, about all those nifty-keen plug-ins most IDEs have... yes, I admit,
I get plug-in envy at times :) But frankly I've found that most of them
I wouldn't use anyway because its just as fast to do it myself, or close
enough to be acceptable, and I definitely prefer knowing what's
happening every step of the way then trusting something to hack my code.
I've seen too many instances over the years of something screwing up
code worse than it ever would have helped.
Which brings me to my last point... where I sit at work, I am near some
people that are historically big RAD fans. However, over the past few
months, as they've tried to have RAD do more and more for them, every
single day without fail I overhear a conversation talking about how RAD
screwed up this config file, or it wouldn't compile something for some
reason that no one can explain, or it just generally wasn't cooperating.
Now, if I had only ever heard these complaints about RAD I'd just say
IBM screwed the pooch (it did) and it was unique to that IDE... but I
*constantly* hear similar stories about other IDEs as well. Most anyone
that is an IDE proponent has war stories along those lines (some have
been lucky and haven't been burned much, others are constantly being
burned).
But, all that being said, I believe using an IDE or not, or which IDE or
other tools you use, is a completely personal thing. My guys at work
get to use whatever tools they want, with only one caveat: it all has to
boil down to an Ant script that anyone can run from a simple command
line, and the actual code must be completely agnostic about development
environment. This is fairly easy to accomplish, and makes it so that 10
different developers with 10 different toolset preference can work on
the same code without difficulty.
To me, whatever is most effective for you is perfectly OK. I'm not
going to try and convince anyone one way or another. And while I will
continue to try various IDEs as I have the opportunity, so far none
allow me to work as efficiently as a copy of UltraEdit, Directory Opus,
Ant and a command line... those are the four windows open on my PC every
minute of every day, and I wouldn't (at this point) have it any other way :)
Frank
Sean Schofield wrote:
>>Please keep in mind that there are still a good number of people who do
>>not use an IDE at all.
>
>
> Why on earth would you someone do such a thing? Seriously. I'd like
> to know :-)
>
>
>>Frank W. Zammetti
>
>
> sean
>
>
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
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