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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org> on 2007/05/15 11:22:34 UTC
[PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Hi,
Ok, I've followed the commons TLP vote thread with some interest
because it seems to impact directly on the end-game for Jakarta.
I believe that we have to make some pretty fundamental decisions about
that future before we can fully resolve the commons TLP issues.
0/ Do we agree that the end-game is dissolution of the Jakarta PMC and
closure of the project?
Pro - Draws a line under the reorg effort which has gone on for 3 or
4 *years*.
Con - Removes the remaining tangible & historic links between former
Jakarta sub-projects.
1/ If so do we wish to preserve the Jakarta brand? (the website and
possibly general@)
Pro - As Ted H. says "We should stop thinking of "Jakarta" only as
an entity, and go back to thinking of it as to the ASF synonym for
"Java", as originally intended."
With this thought in mind around 10% of the referrals to
james.apache come from jakarta.apache.
Con - Others consider that the effort of maintaining the resources
would be unacceptable to anyone.
2/ If we believe that the brand should be preserved should the commons
TLP take ownership of the brand (if/when Jakarta PMC is dissolved)
Pro - Commons is an active community which continues to fulfil the
jakarta==java remit.
Con - Commons is not necessarily interested in the brand or
maintenance of its resources. (would people from other projects step
up)
3/ If we believe that a commons TLP should not own the brand are any
of the alternative options acceptable?
- Retain the Jakarta PMC solely to maintain the brand
- Move ownership of the brand to the prc (should they agree to have it)
- Move ownership of the brand to projects.apache maintainers
x/ Should we consult more widely the Members and/or the Board?
My own (2c) opinion is that:
0/ Yes dissolve the jakarta pmc
1/ Yes preserve the brand
2/ If commons PMC would be comfortable with this it would be my
preferred choice, *and* it would resolve the naming issue because the
project could be "Jakarta Commons" which is a minor change from the
sub-project name Jakarta/Commons
3/ If commons PMC would be against this then I think we should approach the prc.
x/ Don't know
In essence are we in favour of a revolutionary end or an evolutionary one?
WDYT?
d.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@apache.org>.
On 5/15/07, Danny Angus <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Ok, I've followed the commons TLP vote thread with some interest
> because it seems to impact directly on the end-game for Jakarta.
>
> I believe that we have to make some pretty fundamental decisions about
> that future before we can fully resolve the commons TLP issues.
>
> 0/ Do we agree that the end-game is dissolution of the Jakarta PMC and
> closure of the project?
+1. Our current system needs to change.
> 1/ If so do we wish to preserve the Jakarta brand? (the website and
> possibly general@)
+1. I like the idea of keeping general.
Effectively we're talking about the much vaunted yet failed to
materialize federation concepts. XML are ahead of us in this position;
they have one project left (Xindice) for which my advice is sending it
TLP and then all they will have left is a moribund PMC and the
federation work they've done. Which I think is much like the
java@apache page I added a couple of years back (and removed not long
ago).
> Con - Others consider that the effort of maintaining the resources
> would be unacceptable to anyone.
We need to make sure it is self-maintaining to a large extent. The
DOAP stuff might be a way to go, though I think we would want to mix
it with branding and original content.
> 2/ If we believe that the brand should be preserved should the commons
> TLP take ownership of the brand (if/when Jakarta PMC is dissolved)
> Pro - Commons is an active community which continues to fulfil the
> jakarta==java remit.
> Con - Commons is not necessarily interested in the brand or
> maintenance of its resources. (would people from other projects step
> up)
There's a huge tie between the portal (federation) idea and the
commons idea. Both exist as a span for the projects in their category.
I'd rather see two groups showing responsibility rather than lumping
it on the one PMC. So -1 on this one.
> 3/ If we believe that a commons TLP should not own the brand are any
> of the alternative options acceptable?
> - Retain the Jakarta PMC solely to maintain the brand
Maybe not so bad. It's a good start to being Java@Apache as far as
committers/members go. We could extend it such that it's very open to
people being added. For example; there'd be no point having a Jakarta
committer without them being on the PMC.
> - Move ownership of the brand to the prc (should they agree to have it)
-1. StackOverflow.
> - Move ownership of the brand to projects.apache maintainers
-1. StackOverflow.
> x/ Should we consult more widely the Members and/or the Board?
I'm very tempted to ask for opinions on the federation idea on behalf
of both Jakarta and XML as they're both hitting the point of needing
to figure out how we would organize it. I think that part is
definitely on the shoulders of the board/members.
If we end up with code that is in maintenance (Slide, ECS, Alexandria,
JServ, whatever); are we suggesting the Jakarta PMC would handle it or
some other random group?
Hen
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
My silence is because I think I made my preferred option quite clear way too many times.
Mvgr,
Martin
Danny Angus wrote:
> On 5/21/07, J Aaron Farr <fa...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> This thread has been more quiet than I expected.
>
> Actually, thinking about it, perhaps that's because we all think we
> know where this is inevitably going and we're just waiting for it all
> to settle out.
>
> d.
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
On 5/21/07, J Aaron Farr <fa...@apache.org> wrote:
> This thread has been more quiet than I expected.
Actually, thinking about it, perhaps that's because we all think we
know where this is inevitably going and we're just waiting for it all
to settle out.
d.
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Re: ad "dormant" code: what about "matured" code? (Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On 5/21/07, Rony G. Flatscher <Ro...@wu-wien.ac.at> wrote:
> There may be many reasons why a project turned "dormant": no interest
> (dead technology), committers having gone astray, etc.
>
> One reason that may be special is a project which got developed, is
> used, but there is no reason to develop it further. If classifying a
> project as "matured" it still may need fixing of problems and/or
> enhancements over time, making it necessary to create a new distribution.
>
> The idea of putting a "matured" project into the "incubator" realm does
> not sound "right" to me.
That's is *not* what is being said.
What is being said is that if a codebase loses all of its committers,
and there is no one to nominate new committers, and one or more new
volunteers come along that want to work on the codebase, then those
individuals could become committers by applying to the Incubator.
Anyone who is the position where they have become the last one or two
committers to a codebase should put out a bulletin, first asking for
other ASF Committers to step up, and if no one replies, then
nominating likely candidates from the user list.
> Unless there are already rules that mandate that projects that got
> developed to a point after which they go into "maintenance" mode need to
> go into the "incubator", I would suggest to create a new classification
> for such projects.
Again, no one is suggesting that any codebase be unilaterally moved anywhere.
If we are short of committers for a codebase, then what committers
remain should recruit new committers.
If we lose all the committers, and new volunteers come along, then the
Incubator becomes the way that we bootstrap the new set of committers.
When we realize that have no committers, for whatever reason, then
someone should patch the website so that everyone knows where we
stand.
-Ted.
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ad "dormant" code: what about "matured" code? (Re: [PROPOSAL] The
future of Jakarta
Posted by "Rony G. Flatscher" <Ro...@wu-wien.ac.at>.
J Aaron Farr wrote:
... cut ...
> As for dormant code, leave it where it is. If we still have a few
> committers working on it and making releases occasionally, then we'd
> still need a functional PMC. Otherwise, if we get enough noise about
> a subproject, it can be revived (perhaps with help from the
> Incubator).
>
... cut ...
There may be many reasons why a project turned "dormant": no interest
(dead technology), committers having gone astray, etc.
One reason that may be special is a project which got developed, is
used, but there is no reason to develop it further. If classifying a
project as "matured" it still may need fixing of problems and/or
enhancements over time, making it necessary to create a new distribution.
The idea of putting a "matured" project into the "incubator" realm does
not sound "right" to me. It would not be a project which needs to gain
additional developers to "grow", if it has become clear that it is
matured. Or with other words: I would not expect a "matured" project to
get out of an "incubator", which (from the name) is probably meant to
try out, interest, nurture new projects. Also morphing a matured project
into a TLP seems not to be concludent to me (a TLP should be either an
umbrella for other "little" active projects that belong somehow
together, or be a project that gets actively developed for the
foreseeable future and has a broad developer and user community).
Case in question: the Beans Scripting Framework. Version 2.4.0 has gone
Golden last fall and it is expected to be stable. There may be new
engines that get developed for this Java scripting framework, but from
todays perspective, there are no new features for 2.4.0 that can be
foreseen. So 2.4.0 would be in "matured" mode, people are using it and
maybe new Java developers take advantage of it.
There is a new version (3.0) of BSF in beta, created according to the
JSR-223 specs, implementing the official Java scripting framework in
opensource under an Apache license, and can be deployed starting with
Java 4. There are plans by ant to eventually test it againast the TCK.
Now this version is in active development, but if everything goes well,
it will become "mature" once it is officially released. Then this
project would be in "maintenance" mode as well, mainly bug-fixing and
supporting users will be necessary. Of course, if Sun's Java scripting
framework gets enhanced, then these enhancements would probably be
incoroportated into the future BSF 3.0.
Unless there are already rules that mandate that projects that got
developed to a point after which they go into "maintenance" mode need to
go into the "incubator", I would suggest to create a new classification
for such projects. They should be named "matured". Depending whether
there are committers who maintain matured projects, they should be
further qualified as "maintained" projects, or otherwise be put into an
archive of unmaintained matured projects.
---rony
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
Ted Husted wrote:
> On 5/21/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
>> It's pretty simple to solve this though (even though repeating myself
>> here) : Let (a
>> flattened) commons become Jakarta..
>
> Then why the concern about the use of Apache Jakarta Commons as a
> project name?
>
> When the time comes, we could just point <jakarta.apache.org> at
> <commons.apache.org/jakarta>.
>
I am highly opposed to that because of the following reasons :
- If commons wants to be Jakarta they just should work *here* to achieve that.
- If commons is leaving to come back, they are just ignoring the other projects that are still here.
- It is solving the problem the wrong way
- The biggest (developer) community is in commons. We need them to still care and think about the
rest of Jakarta.
It's just like leaving your parent's home to live on your own to run away from your siblings and
then try to move back in when the siblings left the parental home. Big chance your parents will not
let you do that.
Going to bed now..
Mvgr,
Martin
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
Flattened means : jakarta.apache.org/commons becomes jakarta.apache.org :)
Mvgr,
Martin
Ted Husted wrote:
> On 5/21/07, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
>> On 5/21/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
>> > It's pretty simple to solve this though (even though repeating
>> myself here) : Let (a
>> > flattened) commons become Jakarta..
>
> Actually, it might be helpful if you repeated yourself in full, to be
> sure we're not talking past each other. For example, I don't know what
> "flattened" means.
>
> -Ted.
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On 5/21/07, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 5/21/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
> > It's pretty simple to solve this though (even though repeating myself here) : Let (a
> > flattened) commons become Jakarta..
Actually, it might be helpful if you repeated yourself in full, to be
sure we're not talking past each other. For example, I don't know what
"flattened" means.
-Ted.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On 5/21/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
> It's pretty simple to solve this though (even though repeating myself here) : Let (a
> flattened) commons become Jakarta..
Then why the concern about the use of Apache Jakarta Commons as a project name?
When the time comes, we could just point <jakarta.apache.org> at
<commons.apache.org/jakarta>.
-Ted.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On 5/22/07, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> PS: Yes, of course, there are passionate believers in the development
> of particular libraries. Are there enough to make a viable community
> for *any* of the libraries on their own? Or enough that care about
> the Commons ecosystem as a whole to satisfy Apache's notions of
> "community"? It is not clear to me (any longer) that a "commons" type
> environment fits Apache culture (as it is currently being discussed)
> at all.
You're right, it probably doesn't. Towards that end, we should encourage
Commons components with robust communities to apply for top-level
status, so that they can report directly to the Board and have their
own mailing lists. The "one list" rule is a great equalizer and should
help keep the Commons from becoming another Jakarta.
To support smaller communities throughout the ASF, we may need to
adjust our notion of Committer and PMC Member to include not only
people who can write and apply patches, but to embrace power users
too.
-Ted.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 5/22/07, Danny Angus <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 5/22/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
>
> > It's pretty simple to solve this though (even though repeating myself here) : Let (a flattened)
> > commons become Jakarta..
>
> I thought that that idea was unpopular with some commons commiters on this PMC?
I'm a Commons Committer (although not active lately, nor likely to be
again soon because of other personal interests, so take this for what
it's worth) ... but I always assumed that what Martin describes
(commons becomes Jakarta) was the natural endgame when you've
encouraged all the active subprojects that should be TLPs to do so,
and dealt appropriately with dormant/dead/inactive codebases.
The only other reasonable alternative would seem to mean sending
Commons somewhere else and retiring the Jakarta name. That doesn't
make marketing sense to me ... although (even though I have a Business
Admin degree, Marketing was definitely my least favorite subject :-)
On the other hand, are there enough Commons committers (across *all*
the libraries) to matter (i.e. create a viable "community"), or should
we just consider the whole thing an exercise that has come to a
natural conclusion (a bunch of mature code, and a bunch of experiments
that never attracted much community) and call it a day?
If Commons is still viable, then Commons -> Jakarta only makes sense,
and the sooner the better to minize user confusion. Otherwise, the
discussion of what to do next seems a bit academic.
Craig
PS: Yes, of course, there are passionate believers in the development
of particular libraries. Are there enough to make a viable community
for *any* of the libraries on their own? Or enough that care about
the Commons ecosystem as a whole to satisfy Apache's notions of
"community"? It is not clear to me (any longer) that a "commons" type
environment fits Apache culture (as it is currently being discussed)
at all.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On 5/22/07, Danny Angus <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 5/22/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
>
> > It's pretty simple to solve this though (even though repeating myself here) : Let (a flattened)
> > commons become Jakarta..
>
> I thought that that idea was unpopular with some commons commiters on this PMC?
With POI and Turbine going TLP, we are left with the Commons and
eleven other subprojects
* BCEL
* BSF
* Cactus
* ECS
* HttpComponents
* JCS
* JMeter
* ORO
* Regexp
* Slide
* Taglibs
I don't think any of these would be out-of-scope for the Commons, but
there is the issue of whether we have maintenance Committers for all
eleven. We've always resisted the ASF becoming a "dumping ground",
and we don't want start dumping on each other. :)
I wonder if Torsten and the rest of the Commons group would be open to
inviting the remaining subprojects to join the Commons. The key being
whether there is anyone left who is both willing and able to accept
the invitation :)
If any subprojects then remain, we could update the websites of any
inactive subprojects to say that they are inactive, and then
re-establish the Jakarta PMC with the individuals listed on the
Commons resolution, plus the committers for any subprojects that join
the Commons, plus the committers for any active subprojects that do
not want to join the Commons at this time.
Any remaining active subprojects could designate a PMC contact who
would be responsible for reporting to the Jakarta PMC on a quarterly
basis, even if to say "All is well". If the reports stop, the Jakarta
PMC could mark the subproject "inactive - in search of committers". If
anyone wishes to become a committer to an inactive subproject, the
recourse would be to apply to the Incubator.
-Ted.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
On 5/22/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
> It's pretty simple to solve this though (even though repeating myself here) : Let (a flattened)
> commons become Jakarta..
I thought that that idea was unpopular with some commons commiters on this PMC?
d.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
That's quite problematic : Jakarta is responsible for jakarta.apache.org, not commons, sharing that
responsibility will just complicate things a lot.
It's pretty simple to solve this though (even though repeating myself here) : Let (a flattened)
commons become Jakarta..
Mvgr,
Martin
Ted Husted wrote:
> What if the proposal were to create the TLP for the purpose of
> reporting directly to the board, but nothing else changed? Would the
> project name "Apache Jakarta Commons" still be a problem for you if
> the physical infrastructure remained "here", under the Jakarta
> hostname?
>
> -Ted.
>
> On 5/21/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
>> Yep still feel that way. Projects that want to use the Jakarta name,
>> should just stay here
>> till they
>> are the only one left and after that re-establish the Jakarta Project.
>>
>> Mvgr,
>> Martin
>>
>> Ted Husted wrote:
>> > On 5/21/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
>> >> That *you* don't see a problem in using the Jakarta name, doesn't mean
>> >> no one has
>> >> expressed objections (you even responded to those objections)
>> >
>> > Yes, I looked back over the thread, and I stand corrected. You did say
>> > that the use of the Jakarta name in another TLP seemed premature. Do
>> > you still feel that way?
>> >
>> > -Ted.
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
What if the proposal were to create the TLP for the purpose of
reporting directly to the board, but nothing else changed? Would the
project name "Apache Jakarta Commons" still be a problem for you if
the physical infrastructure remained "here", under the Jakarta
hostname?
-Ted.
On 5/21/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
> Yep still feel that way. Projects that want to use the Jakarta name, should just stay here
> till they
> are the only one left and after that re-establish the Jakarta Project.
>
> Mvgr,
> Martin
>
> Ted Husted wrote:
> > On 5/21/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
> >> That *you* don't see a problem in using the Jakarta name, doesn't mean
> >> no one has
> >> expressed objections (you even responded to those objections)
> >
> > Yes, I looked back over the thread, and I stand corrected. You did say
> > that the use of the Jakarta name in another TLP seemed premature. Do
> > you still feel that way?
> >
> > -Ted.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
Yep still feel that way. Projects that want to use the Jakarta name, should just stay here till they
are the only one left and after that re-establish the Jakarta Project.
Mvgr,
Martin
Ted Husted wrote:
> On 5/21/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
>> That *you* don't see a problem in using the Jakarta name, doesn't mean
>> no one has
>> expressed objections (you even responded to those objections)
>
> Yes, I looked back over the thread, and I stand corrected. You did say
> that the use of the Jakarta name in another TLP seemed premature. Do
> you still feel that way?
>
> -Ted.
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On 5/21/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
> That *you* don't see a problem in using the Jakarta name, doesn't mean no one has
> expressed objections (you even responded to those objections)
Yes, I looked back over the thread, and I stand corrected. You did say
that the use of the Jakarta name in another TLP seemed premature. Do
you still feel that way?
-Ted.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
Ted Husted wrote:
> Worse case, the Commons group could always go with "Apache Jakarta
> Commons". No one has objected to the re-use of the word "Jakarta", and
> more than one person has affirmed that it could be used.
That *you* don't see a problem in using the Jakarta name, doesn't mean no one has expressed
objections (you even responded to those objections)
Mvgr,
Martin
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 5/21/07, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 5/21/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
> > > Then take it to the next stage. Update the Jakarta home page to
> > > include links to our other Java products that were never part of
> > > Jakarta, like iBATIS, and invite all ASF Java products to use our news
> > > feed. Open the door, and see if anyone walks in.
> >
> > I am on a different schedule, volunteering on my own terms. In my view doing this now is
> > *way* too premature. I currently only want to invest my time and energy on Jakarta and
> > it's current projects.
>
> That's fair. Every volunteer should scratch their own itch :)
>
> If other volunteers were ready to explore this course of action now,
> would you object to someone creating a "java@apache" portal here by
> extending the Jakarta home page?
Easy enough to do; resurrect this page and start adding to it :)
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/jakarta/site/xdocs/site/java_at_apache.xml?view=log&pathrev=482036
Hen
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
Ted Husted wrote:
> On 5/21/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
>> One link to a separate page isn't a problem, since I prefer that no
>> major changes happen
>> to the main site at this stage.
>> Currently I am pretty much dedicated in keeping Jakarta as a brand.
>> And when that time
>> comes to worry about that, I'll work with the people who still have
>> the itch and the cycles
>> to spare. Starting to make it happen now feels like a waste of time,
>> since the future of
>> Jakarta is by no way set at this moment.
>
> Why does it have to be and either/or proposition?
>
> I would think that regardless of what anyone envisions the future of
> Jakarta to be, extending the home page to highlight *all* of the Java
> products at the ASF would be a Good Thing.
It's a good thing, but not now :)
>
> The notion of extending the Jakarta home page so that it can become
> the focal point of all things Java at Apache seems orthogonal as to
> whether or not Jakarta continues to host subprojects.
It just removes focus from the tasks we have to deal with *now*.. And if Jakarta is going to still
be a project with code, I rather see the people involved in that project make the decisions.
Don't forget there are 2 outcomes for Jakarta (ignoring no Jakarta at all)
- Jakarta as just a website.
- Jakarta as a real Apache project, which means that project owns Jakarta. Since the Jakarta project
needs to be re-established, the current people on the PMC are not the people on the new PMC and can
therefor have a different opinion on being java at apache and undo all the work.
Mvgr,
Martin
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On 5/21/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
> One link to a separate page isn't a problem, since I prefer that no major changes happen
> to the main site at this stage.
> Currently I am pretty much dedicated in keeping Jakarta as a brand. And when that time
> comes to worry about that, I'll work with the people who still have the itch and the cycles
> to spare. Starting to make it happen now feels like a waste of time, since the future of
> Jakarta is by no way set at this moment.
Why does it have to be and either/or proposition?
I would think that regardless of what anyone envisions the future of
Jakarta to be, extending the home page to highlight *all* of the Java
products at the ASF would be a Good Thing.
The notion of extending the Jakarta home page so that it can become
the focal point of all things Java at Apache seems orthogonal as to
whether or not Jakarta continues to host subprojects.
-Ted.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
One link to a separate page isn't a problem, since I prefer that no major changes happen to the main
site at this stage.
Currently I am pretty much dedicated in keeping Jakarta as a brand. And when that time comes to
worry about that, I'll work with the people who still have the itch and the cycles to spare.
Starting to make it happen now feels like a waste of time, since the future of Jakarta is by no way
set at this moment.
Mvgr,
Martin
Ted Husted wrote:
> On 5/21/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
>> > Then take it to the next stage. Update the Jakarta home page to
>> > include links to our other Java products that were never part of
>> > Jakarta, like iBATIS, and invite all ASF Java products to use our news
>> > feed. Open the door, and see if anyone walks in.
>>
>> I am on a different schedule, volunteering on my own terms. In my view
>> doing this now is
>> *way* too premature. I currently only want to invest my time and
>> energy on Jakarta and
>> it's current projects.
>
> That's fair. Every volunteer should scratch their own itch :)
>
> If other volunteers were ready to explore this course of action now,
> would you object to someone creating a "java@apache" portal here by
> extending the Jakarta home page?
>
> -Ted.
>
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>
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On 5/21/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
> > Then take it to the next stage. Update the Jakarta home page to
> > include links to our other Java products that were never part of
> > Jakarta, like iBATIS, and invite all ASF Java products to use our news
> > feed. Open the door, and see if anyone walks in.
>
> I am on a different schedule, volunteering on my own terms. In my view doing this now is
> *way* too premature. I currently only want to invest my time and energy on Jakarta and
> it's current projects.
That's fair. Every volunteer should scratch their own itch :)
If other volunteers were ready to explore this course of action now,
would you object to someone creating a "java@apache" portal here by
extending the Jakarta home page?
-Ted.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
Ted Husted wrote:
> On 5/21/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
>> It's not just you :) It's just too early to do that at this stage,
>> since if it is just some
>> commits
>> as Teds says, it will be a dead horse. I don't need something formal
>> or something, but at
>> least get
>> some attention from the java projects out there if they are willing to
>> help out and also
>> have some
>> collaboration with David Reid / projects.a.o. It's not worth it if the
>> Apache java projects
>> don't
>> like the idea and help out at least with their project.
>> (not suggesting you are of a different opinion though Danny)
>
> Then take it to the next stage. Update the Jakarta home page to
> include links to our other Java products that were never part of
> Jakarta, like iBATIS, and invite all ASF Java products to use our news
> feed. Open the door, and see if anyone walks in.
>
I am on a different schedule, volunteering on my own terms. In my view doing this now is *way* too
premature. I currently only want to invest my time and energy on Jakarta and it's current projects.
Mvgr,
Martin
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On 5/21/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
> It's not just you :) It's just too early to do that at this stage, since if it is just some
> commits
> as Teds says, it will be a dead horse. I don't need something formal or something, but at
> least get
> some attention from the java projects out there if they are willing to help out and also
> have some
> collaboration with David Reid / projects.a.o. It's not worth it if the Apache java projects
> don't
> like the idea and help out at least with their project.
> (not suggesting you are of a different opinion though Danny)
Then take it to the next stage. Update the Jakarta home page to
include links to our other Java products that were never part of
Jakarta, like iBATIS, and invite all ASF Java products to use our news
feed. Open the door, and see if anyone walks in.
-Ted.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
Danny Angus wrote:
> On 5/21/07, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
>> On 5/21/07, Danny Angus <da...@apache.org> wrote:
>> > Ok "Ownership" is perhaps the wrong word, if Jakarta is being
>> > disbanded who provides the oversight?
>>
>> The same people who provide oversight for any ASF project: The people
>> doing the work.
>>
>> If anyone wants Jakarta to be the ASF portal to all of our Java
>> assets, then make it so.
>>
>> A commit is the only vote that counts.
>
> Yes, OK, and that's what I'm trying to find out. Does anyone? or is it
> just me?
It's not just you :) It's just too early to do that at this stage, since if it is just some commits
as Teds says, it will be a dead horse. I don't need something formal or something, but at least get
some attention from the java projects out there if they are willing to help out and also have some
collaboration with David Reid / projects.a.o. It's not worth it if the Apache java projects don't
like the idea and help out at least with their project.
(not suggesting you are of a different opinion though Danny)
Mvgr,
Martin
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
On 5/21/07, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 5/21/07, Danny Angus <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> > Ok "Ownership" is perhaps the wrong word, if Jakarta is being
> > disbanded who provides the oversight?
>
> The same people who provide oversight for any ASF project: The people
> doing the work.
>
> If anyone wants Jakarta to be the ASF portal to all of our Java
> assets, then make it so.
>
> A commit is the only vote that counts.
Yes, OK, and that's what I'm trying to find out. Does anyone? or is it just me?
If its just me then even without my customary modesty I'd struggle to
imagine that I could provide a sensible level of attention, this
requires some degree of support or we're just flogging a dead horse.
I'm trying to find out whether or not it is even worth drafting a
vote, or if we just want to all go home once the last active
sub-projects get their TLP.
d.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On 5/21/07, Danny Angus <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> Ok "Ownership" is perhaps the wrong word, if Jakarta is being
> disbanded who provides the oversight?
The same people who provide oversight for any ASF project: The people
doing the work.
If anyone wants Jakarta to be the ASF portal to all of our Java
assets, then make it so.
A commit is the only vote that counts.
-Ted.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
On 5/21/07, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> If someone wants to turn Jakarta into a Java portal, then turn Jakarta
> into a Java portal. Some of the codebases may still be under the
> Jakarta PMC umbrella, but would have little effect on using the
> Jakarta site as a portal to the ASF's Java assets.
Ok "Ownership" is perhaps the wrong word, if Jakarta is being
disbanded who provides the oversight?
> Anyone interested in such a thing can start now. There's no need for a
> vote.
But it is under the auspices of the Jakarta PMC, I though there was a
reluctance to see the jakarta PMC retained just for managing these
resources?
d.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On 5/21/07, Danny Angus <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> 2/ It seems that we have a consensus forming around the idea that it
> would be worthwhile retaining some resources in a low-maintenance way.
> However its not clear where the ownership of these would lie.
Like anything else ASF, the "ownership" will lie with the volunteers
who actually do the work.
JAKARTA AS A PORTAL
If someone wants to turn Jakarta into a Java portal, then turn Jakarta
into a Java portal. Some of the codebases may still be under the
Jakarta PMC umbrella, but would have little effect on using the
Jakarta site as a portal to the ASF's Java assets.
To a great extent, it already *is* a portal. The only real difference
would be to carry "news" from any ASF Java product, and to list all
the Java products, not just Jakarta and ex-Jakarta. (We should also
keep in mind that we have at least three multi-language projects with
a Java product: iBATIS, Logging, and Lucene.)
Anyone interested in such a thing can start now. There's no need for a
vote. Changes to ASF websites have always been commit-then-review. So,
commit. :)
INACTIVE CODEBASES
As to inactive projects or Jakarta subprojects, we had that discussion
on the members list. Tthe general consensus was to "let sleeping dogs
lie". If a project is inactive, the most we should do is post a note
to that effect on the website. If someone wants to reactive a project
later, then one or more interested people can apply to the incubator.
REMAINING JAKARTA SUBPROJECTS
The rest of the Jakarta subprojects can either hang around for a few
more years, or we could force the TLP issue with a deadline, and then
tag the stragglers as "inactive, in search of a community".
It doesn't matter much either way. We all see the handwriting on the wall.
COMMONS TLP
As for the Jakarta Commons TLP proposal, essentially, that vote
passed. The people who made the proposal could submit it at the next
board meeting as it stands, with a mention that there was some
amicable discussion on the vote thread. As Torsten mentioned, the
volunteers making the proposal might decide to use a more qualified
name than "Apache Commons", so as to resolve the discussion points.
Worse case, the Commons group could always go with "Apache Jakarta
Commons". No one has objected to the re-use of the word "Jakarta", and
more than one person has affirmed that it could be used. Then one
day, we could also have an Apache Ruby Commons, and/or an Apache
DotNet Commons, and maybe even an Apache XML Commons and Apache
WebServers Commons.
The codebase could stay under the Jakarta host for now, or more under
the Apache Commons host. It doesn't much matter. Implementation
details are up to the people doing the work (meaning, the proposed
Jakarta Commons PMC and Infrastructure).
-Ted.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
On 5/21/07, J Aaron Farr <fa...@apache.org> wrote:
> This thread has been more quiet than I expected.
I thought so too.
There are two points which I'd like to make from the things that have
been said so far,
1/ From Ted H. "Whenever we foster healthy communities that create
great software, we will create another great brand. It's what we do."
That's a really good point, and one which more than anything else has
raised a doubt in my mind as to the benefit of retaining the Jakarta
brand.
2/ It seems that we have a consensus forming around the idea that it
would be worthwhile retaining some resources in a low-maintenance way.
However its not clear where the ownership of these would lie.
I like the idea that http://jakarta might aggregate news content from
java projects. Differentiating itself from http://projects by being
the source of news about apache java projects.
d.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by J Aaron Farr <fa...@apache.org>.
"Danny Angus" <da...@apache.org> writes:
> Ok, I've followed the commons TLP vote thread with some interest
> because it seems to impact directly on the end-game for Jakarta....
This thread has been more quiet than I expected. A couple of quick
thoughts:
Henri and Henning seem to have the same ideas about Jakarta becoming a
"portal" or "federation" and I'm +1 for that. I think that's a great
idea and it's low maintenance. Really, what more would you need than
the general@ list?
As for dormant code, leave it where it is. If we still have a few
committers working on it and making releases occasionally, then we'd
still need a functional PMC. Otherwise, if we get enough noise about
a subproject, it can be revived (perhaps with help from the
Incubator).
And the site should be as self-maintaining as possible, picking up
news and releases from all other java projects at apache. I would
think there is no more qualified group of people to put together such
as site than we have in Jakarta/Apache.
--
J Aaron Farr jadetower.com [US] +1 724-964-4515
馮傑仁 cubiclemuses.com [HK] +852 8123-7905
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Petar Tahchiev <pa...@gmail.com>.
On 5/15/07, Danny Angus <da...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Ok, I've followed the commons TLP vote thread with some interest
> because it seems to impact directly on the end-game for Jakarta.
>
> I believe that we have to make some pretty fundamental decisions about
> that future before we can fully resolve the commons TLP issues.
>
> 0/ Do we agree that the end-game is dissolution of the Jakarta PMC and
> closure of the project?
> Pro - Draws a line under the reorg effort which has gone on for 3 or
> 4 *years*.
> Con - Removes the remaining tangible & historic links between former
> Jakarta sub-projects.
>
> 1/ If so do we wish to preserve the Jakarta brand? (the website and
> possibly general@)
> Pro - As Ted H. says "We should stop thinking of "Jakarta" only as
> an entity, and go back to thinking of it as to the ASF synonym for
> "Java", as originally intended."
> With this thought in mind around 10% of the referrals to
> james.apache come from jakarta.apache.
> Con - Others consider that the effort of maintaining the resources
> would be unacceptable to anyone.
>
> 2/ If we believe that the brand should be preserved should the commons
> TLP take ownership of the brand (if/when Jakarta PMC is dissolved)
> Pro - Commons is an active community which continues to fulfil the
> jakarta==java remit.
> Con - Commons is not necessarily interested in the brand or
> maintenance of its resources. (would people from other projects step
> up)
>
> 3/ If we believe that a commons TLP should not own the brand are any
> of the alternative options acceptable?
> - Retain the Jakarta PMC solely to maintain the brand
> - Move ownership of the brand to the prc (should they agree to have it)
> - Move ownership of the brand to projects.apache maintainers
>
>
> x/ Should we consult more widely the Members and/or the Board?
>
> My own (2c) opinion is that:
>
> 0/ Yes dissolve the jakarta pmc
>
> 1/ Yes preserve the brand
>
> 2/ If commons PMC would be comfortable with this it would be my
> preferred choice, *and* it would resolve the naming issue because the
> project could be "Jakarta Commons" which is a minor change from the
> sub-project name Jakarta/Commons
>
> 3/ If commons PMC would be against this then I think we should approach
> the prc.
>
> x/ Don't know
>
> In essence are we in favour of a revolutionary end or an evolutionary one?
>
> WDYT?
>
> d.
>
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>
Hello to everybody,
my personal opinion differes slightly.
I still believe that we have to preserve Jakarta as a project summoning the
Java
projects in the foundation. If you ask me directly "Do we need another
Jakartas
like for .NET for instance?" - I would say yes. Those new Jakarta, or
"Nairobi" or
whatever we decide to call it has to be a TLP, and has to have a commons
project,
and has to have a PMC and everything else. Then,part of our current .NET
projects
could be transfered to the .NET-commons one.
Actually I have been following the mail lists for more than three years by
now, although
I am part of the Jakarta project for less than three months, so you
don't need to consider
my thoughts seriosly.
I am curious to hear what Martin van den Bemt has to say, as I know he is
going to
lead a presentation on the ApacheCON USA with the exact same name.
Have a nice day.
--
Regards, Petar!
Karlovo, Bulgaria.
Public PGP Key at:
http://keyserver.linux.it/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x1A15B53B761500F9
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On 5/15/07, Danny Angus <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> 0/ Do we agree that the end-game is dissolution of the Jakarta PMC and
> closure of the project?
> Pro - Draws a line under the reorg effort which has gone on for 3 or
> 4 *years*.
> Con - Removes the remaining tangible & historic links between former
> Jakarta sub-projects.
At the ASF, we let them that do the work make the decisions. (Mainly
because we have to ... otherwise, there would be no one willing to do
the work!) We can talk about end-games until Sol goes nova, but in
the end the volunteers who do the work will make the decision.
So far, the subproject committers have been deciding to create their
own TLP. Not because the Jakarta PMC said so, but because the
subproject committers said so.
The one proactive step we could take is to set a deadline for other
TLPs to migrate or to find some other home, either as part of another
TLP, or with another project host. Or, we could just wait the
remaining subprojects out, and let nature take its course over the
next year or three.
> 1/ If so do we wish to preserve the Jakarta brand? (the website and
> possibly general@)
> Pro - As Ted H. says "We should stop thinking of "Jakarta" only as
> an entity, and go back to thinking of it as to the ASF synonym for
> "Java", as originally intended."
> With this thought in mind around 10% of the referrals to
> james.apache come from jakarta.apache.
> Con - Others consider that the effort of maintaining the resources
> would be unacceptable to anyone.\
The goodness of the Jakarta brand isn't the result of working on the
Jakarta brand. It's the result of fostering healthy communities that
create great software. Now, those communities have gone on to create
their own TLPs, and to create their own brands. Sure, Jakarta has name
recognition. But so does Ant and Maven and Struts and Tapestry and
Velocity.
Essentially, Jakarta was the first incubator. Now we have a top-level
Incubator, and most of our subprojects have gone on to become TLP too.
I think Java at Apache has succeeded beyond anyone's wildest dreams.
Today, the communities we fostered don't need the crutch of an
uber-project. They can stand alone, and for that we should be happy!
But not to worry. Whenever we foster healthy communities that create
great software, we will create another great brand. It's what we do.
:)
>
> 2/ If we believe that the brand should be preserved should the commons
> TLP take ownership of the brand (if/when Jakarta PMC is dissolved)
> Pro - Commons is an active community which continues to fulfil the
> jakarta==java remit.
> Con - Commons is not necessarily interested in the brand or
> maintenance of its resources. (would people from other projects step
> up)
At the ASF, great brands are created by healthy communities that
create great software. I would say that the Commons certainly fits
that bill. An excellent way to preserve the Jakarta name would be to
lend it to the Jakarta Commons TLP. After all, the Commons had a lot
to do with creating the Jakarta brand as it exists today.
> 3/ If we believe that a commons TLP should not own the brand are any
> of the alternative options acceptable?
> - Retain the Jakarta PMC solely to maintain the brand
> - Move ownership of the brand to the prc (should they agree to have it)
> - Move ownership of the brand to projects.apache maintainers
An Apache Jakarta Commons does not obviate a Jakarta federation or a
Jakarta portal. If anything, reuse of the name increases its value. We
can have our cake and eat it too!
> x/ Should we consult more widely the Members and/or the Board?
At the ASF level, when we talk about protecting a brand, we usually
mean "give credit where credit is due". Being a meritocracy, we don't
want other people diluting our brand by claiming our work as theirs,
or their work as ours. So long as the Jakarta brand is not being
poached by a third-party, I doubt that anyone else would care. From an
ASF perspective, the only things of value are those things that
attract qualified volunteers. From a marketing perspective, a "brand"
may attract downloads, but I don't know if it attracts volunteers.
-Ted.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de>.
On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 21:56 +0200, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 10:22 +0100, Danny Angus wrote:
>
> 0/ - Dismember the current Jakarta PMC - +1
> 1/ - Yes, preserve the brand - +1000
> 2/ - No. The commons PMC will run the commons project. A possible
> Jakarta PMC will not have the attention that might be needed. - -1
^Jakarta PMC^Jakarta site^
> 3/ - -1 on the PRC. They have enough to do running their stuff and they
> are not really interested in the day-to-day business of running a PRC.
^running a PRC^running as the PMC for Jakarta^
gee, why am I off my meds today? :-(
Best regards
Henning
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Sitz der Gesellschaft: Buckenhof. Geschaeftsfuehrer: Henning Schmiedehausen |n
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@apache.org>.
....so this thread died again without a conclusion or resulution.
My take with as few words as possible:
* push for active project to go TLP
* jakarta.apache.org - the portal to all java projects at apache.
Just a shell - but let's keep the brand. Not necessarily a PMC
required. (Although a non-code project trying to improve
collaboration between java projects would be an idea to discuss)
* ${commons}.apache.org - as people have concerns about the name (as
there is more than java) let's find a new one.
- commonsj
- jcommons
- ...
* dormant.apache.org - maybe a place where we put not just old stuff
from jakarta
cheers
--
Torsten
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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <he...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 10:22 +0100, Danny Angus wrote:
0/ - Dismember the current Jakarta PMC - +1
1/ - Yes, preserve the brand - +1000
2/ - No. The commons PMC will run the commons project. A possible
Jakarta PMC will not have the attention that might be needed. - -1
3/ - -1 on the PRC. They have enough to do running their stuff and they
are not really interested in the day-to-day business of running a PRC.
Here is a thought: Do we need a PMC?
If we rethink Jakarta as "Java @ Apache", it will be our gateway for
Java interested developers into Apache. So what we need is sort of a
portal site. Basically a subset of projects.apache.org, branded for
Java. Those projects that feel they want to be on add a special tag (or
just Java) to their DOAP files and off we go. Automatic web site.
This is nothing fancy.
And we keep some mailing lists: general@jakarta. announce@jakarta. Maybe
a users@jakarta which is intended for people to ask about Java stuff and
get redirected. Needs maybe one or two more web pages.
Build the stuff and a nice front page that gets a news ticker similar to
what Jakarta has today, add the "these are our rules pages" which we
also have today, as these are the base for many other projects, ready.
Do we need a PMC? Or could this be an effort run by an existing PMC? For
me, infra would be the logical solution. Because, the whole portal thing
is mainly that. Infrastructure.
- create jakarta-site@infra
- let anyone interested subscribe
- get a repository which contains the site and hand out permissions for
it
- wait for a community to gather.
This is a largely stable effort. There is not much work in it (IMHO).
Why add the overhead of a PMC?
I'd like to contribute to that effort.
Best regards
Henning
> Hi,
>
> Ok, I've followed the commons TLP vote thread with some interest
> because it seems to impact directly on the end-game for Jakarta.
>
> I believe that we have to make some pretty fundamental decisions about
> that future before we can fully resolve the commons TLP issues.
>
> 0/ Do we agree that the end-game is dissolution of the Jakarta PMC and
> closure of the project?
> Pro - Draws a line under the reorg effort which has gone on for 3 or
> 4 *years*.
> Con - Removes the remaining tangible & historic links between former
> Jakarta sub-projects.
>
> 1/ If so do we wish to preserve the Jakarta brand? (the website and
> possibly general@)
> Pro - As Ted H. says "We should stop thinking of "Jakarta" only as
> an entity, and go back to thinking of it as to the ASF synonym for
> "Java", as originally intended."
> With this thought in mind around 10% of the referrals to
> james.apache come from jakarta.apache.
> Con - Others consider that the effort of maintaining the resources
> would be unacceptable to anyone.
>
> 2/ If we believe that the brand should be preserved should the commons
> TLP take ownership of the brand (if/when Jakarta PMC is dissolved)
> Pro - Commons is an active community which continues to fulfil the
> jakarta==java remit.
> Con - Commons is not necessarily interested in the brand or
> maintenance of its resources. (would people from other projects step
> up)
>
> 3/ If we believe that a commons TLP should not own the brand are any
> of the alternative options acceptable?
> - Retain the Jakarta PMC solely to maintain the brand
> - Move ownership of the brand to the prc (should they agree to have it)
> - Move ownership of the brand to projects.apache maintainers
>
>
> x/ Should we consult more widely the Members and/or the Board?
>
> My own (2c) opinion is that:
>
> 0/ Yes dissolve the jakarta pmc
>
> 1/ Yes preserve the brand
>
> 2/ If commons PMC would be comfortable with this it would be my
> preferred choice, *and* it would resolve the naming issue because the
> project could be "Jakarta Commons" which is a minor change from the
> sub-project name Jakarta/Commons
>
> 3/ If commons PMC would be against this then I think we should approach the prc.
>
> x/ Don't know
>
> In essence are we in favour of a revolutionary end or an evolutionary one?
>
> WDYT?
>
> d.
>
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