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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by "Sakala, Adinarayana" <AS...@iona.com> on 2006/06/20 19:52:02 UTC
[PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Hello,
Below is a project proposal for incubation consideration.
The project welcomes your feedback as well as interest in involvement.
This proposal is also located online at http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/CeltiXfireProposal
== CeltiXfire Proposal ==
Project CeltiXfire is a SOA infrastructure framework focused on implementation of JCP and web service standards while also providing extensibility for legacy integration. It is a merge of two matured open source projects and communities, ObjectWeb Celtix (http://celtix.objectweb.org) and Codehaus Xfire (http://xfire.codehaus.org). It will implement the JAX-WS, JAX-WSA, and JSR-181 standards. Core to this is support for web service standards like SOAP 1.1, SOAP 1.2, WS-I BasicProfile, WS-Security, WS-Addressing, WS-RM, and WS-Policy. This project will support several programming models like JAX-WS, JBI (ServiceMix), SCA (Tuscany), and CORBA services (Yoko). We will leverage open source components wherever possible, for example we intend to use WSS4J for ws-security from the Apache Web Services project. One goal of this project is to provide public APIs that match the JSR standards. Furthermore, the scope of this project is to provide SOA infrastructure for both modern web services and for legacy systems. The seed code has been designed to provide a pluggable architecture to support both XML and non-XML type bindings in combination with any type of transport. For example, Celtix is in the process of being extended to provide a CORBA binding as part of the Apache Yoko project (in incubation). Additional examples of non-XML bindings that could be supported in the future include fixed length record bindings, which are critical to integrating mainframe systems into a SOA. The current infrastructure code is designed for flexible deployment in a variety of containers including JBI, J2EE, SCA and servlet containers.
== Rationale ==
The project is interested in moving to Apache for the following reasons: To provide Apache-licensed implementations of the relevant web service JSR standards: JAX-WS, JAX-WSA, JSR-181, and JSR-265 standards and to test those implementations with the applicable JSR TCKs, to become better integrated with the Geronimo, Harmony, ServiceMix, Tuscany, Yoko and Apache Web Services communities, and to build a strong vendor-neutral community that will outlast any one person's or company's participation.
== Meritocracy ==
The Codehaus Xfire and ObjectWeb Celtix projects have fostered a development community based around meritocracy. Many of the committers already work on other Apache projects and understand the Apache way. The individuals understand that they are responsible for the code, and that the community around the project will define the direction.
== Community ==
The CeltiXfire Community will bring together two already successful communities - Xfire and Celtix. Both projects have active users and contributors on the mailing lists.
== Core Developers ==
The CeltiXfire project's initial committers include a diverse set of individuals. Some of the individuals are employed by Envoi Solutions, IONA, BEA, LogicBlaze and Red Hat, and some are not funded by any particular employer.
== Alignment ==
CeltiXfire currently uses and integrates with many Apache projects but does not have hard dependencies on these (in alphabetical order):
* ActiveMQ is used as the default JMS implementation.
* Continuum: Apache Continuum currently uses XFire for its SOAP integration.
* Harmony: Harmony is implementing Java 5.0 and requires support for many of the JSR that CeltiXfire will provide.
* Jakarta Commons HttpClient can be used for the HTTP client transport.
* Geronimo: Celtix already provides Geronimo integration. CeltiXfire will continue this effort and will be made available so that Geronimo could use CeltiXfire as its JAX-WS implementation for JEE.
* ServiceMix: Codehaus XFire is currently used within ServiceMix to provide web service integration. Celtix provides its own JBI integration for ServiceMix as well, although JBI is an option and not a requirement for Celtix implementation.
* Maven 2: Celtix and Xfire already provide Maven 2 plug-ins for invoking the Celtix and Xfire tooling.
* Tuscany: Celtix is already integrated with Tuscany.
* WSS4J: CeltiXfire uses Apache WSS4J for WS-Security support.
* XMLBeans is currently used as one of the data-binding options for CeltiXfire.
* XmlSchema: CeltiXfire uses XmlSchema for many schema related functions internally.
* Yoko: Celtix is already integrated with Yoko to provide support for exposing CORBA services as web services.
We are currently evaluating the use of other Apache projects as well like Woden, Neethi and JaxMe.
== Avoiding the Warning Signs ==
=== Orphaned products ===
CeltiXfire is a merging of two successful open source projects, ObjectWeb Celtix and Codehaus Xfire. Both have active communities and developers. CeltiXfire provides support for some important specifications to Java community, we expect that this project will continue to grow and develop within its own community, and be embraced by many other open source projects as well.
=== Inexperience with open source ===
The authors of the existing code have extensive experience with open source already. The initial list of committers includes 9 Apache Committers. They are involved in:
* Apache Continuum
* Apache Geronimo
* Apache ServiceMix
* Apache Tuscany
* Apache Yoko
=== Homogeneous developers ===
The project's initial committers include individuals that are employed by a diverse set of companies, including Envoi Solutions, IONA, LogicBlaze, BEA and Red Hat. About 2/3 of the initial committers are employed by IONA. Additionally the project has several committers whose work is not funded by any particular employer.
=== Reliance on Salaried Developers ===
Many of the developers are salaried, but they are spread out over several organizations. Several other developers are contributing to this project without any connection to an employer.
=== No ties to other Apache products ===
Both ObjectWeb Celtix and Codehaus Xfire currently use many Apache projects. These have been outlined in the "alignment" section.
=== A fascination with the Apache brand ===
While we expect the Apache brand may help attract more contributors, our interests in starting this project is based on the factors mentioned in the Rationale section. However, we will be sensitive to inadvertent abuse of the Apache brand and will work with the Incubator PMC and the PRC to ensure the brand policies are respected.
=== Scope of Subprojects ===
No subprojects proposed.
== Initial Source ==
The Celtix codebase is owned by IONA. It is currently available under both EPL and LGPL licenses (http://celtix.objectweb.org). The applicable code will be relicensed under the Apache License 2.0. The Codehaus Xfire codebase is owned by Envoi Solutions LLC and is available under an MIT license (http://xfire.codehaus.org). The applicable code will be relicensed under the Apache Software License 2.0. The dependencies all have Apache compatible licenses. These include BSD, CDDL, CPL, MPL and MIT licensed dependencies.
== ASF Resources to be Created ==
* Mailing lists
* cxf-dev
* cxf-user
* cxf-commits
* cxf-ppmc
* SVN Repository https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/cxf
* JIRA CeltiXfire (CeltiXfire)
* Official Build Systems
== Initial Committers ==
* Adi Sakala
* Dan Diephouse
* Guillaume Nodet
* James Strachan
* David Blevins
* Peter Royal
* Daniel Kulp
* Balaji Ravi
* Conrad O'Dea
* Hani Suileman
* Mika Goekel
* Adam Kramer
* Tomek Sztelak
* Stuart Edmondston
* Bozhong Lin
* Jervis Liu
* Julian Squires
* James Mao
* Jim Ma
* Freeman Fang
* Tom Li
* Willem Jiang
* Andrea Smyth
* Eoghan Glynn
* Debbie Moynihan
* Ajay Paibir
* Ulhas Bhole
* Sean O'Callaghan
* Peter Jones
* Eric Johnson
* Brian Zotter
* Mark Little
== Sponsor ==
We kindly request the Incubator PMC to accept sponsorship for this proposal.
== Champion ==
Jason Van Zyl
== Mentors ==
* Jason Van Zyl
* Jim Jagielski
* James Strachan
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
On Tue, Jun 20, 2006 at 01:52:02PM -0400, Sakala, Adinarayana wrote:
> Below is a project proposal for incubation consideration.
Well-written proposal. Merging two codebases is hard though!
What is it?
-----------
> Project CeltiXfire is a SOA infrastructure framework focused on implementation of JCP and web service
> standards while also providing extensibility for legacy integration. It is a merge of two matured open source
> projects and communities, ObjectWeb Celtix (http://celtix.objectweb.org) and Codehaus Xfire
> (http://xfire.codehaus.org). It will implement the JAX-WS, JAX-WSA, and JSR-181 standards. Core to this is
> support for web service standards like SOAP 1.1, SOAP 1.2, WS-I BasicProfile, WS-Security, WS-Addressing,
> WS-RM, and WS-Policy. This project will support several programming models like JAX-WS, JBI (ServiceMix), SCA
> (Tuscany), and CORBA services (Yoko). We will leverage open source components wherever possible, for example
> we intend to use WSS4J for ws-security from the Apache Web Services project. One goal of this project is to
> provide public APIs that match the JSR standards. Furthermore, the scope of this project is to provide SOA
> infrastructure for both modern web services and for legacy systems. The seed code has been designed to provide
> a pluggable architecture to support both XML and non-XML type bindings in combination with any type of
> transport. For example, Celtix is in the process of being extended to provide a CORBA binding as part of the
> Apache Yoko project (in incubation). Additional examples of non-XML bindings that could be supported in the
> future include fixed length record bindings, which are critical to integrating mainframe systems into a SOA.
> The current infrastructure code is designed for flexible deployment in a variety of containers including JBI,
> J2EE, SCA and servlet containers.
I have absolutely no idea what the above means, but I've given up
trying to make sense of the "java enterprise" space some time ago
so that's to be expected. Nevertheless, do you think there's any
chance someone could give a technical summary of the above that the
people who haven't a clue what most of the used acronyms mean can
also understand?
Trying myself, I've always understood XFire to be a direct alternative
for Axis1 (I have yet to get to grips with Axis2, but I assume
some of the same is true there), aka a "SOAP stack". Is that somewhat
true? And then, is Celtix such a beastie as well? Can the stuff above be
summarized as "flexible, standards-compliant, robust, (insert more
popular adjectives here), SOAP stack server framework architecture
(insert more popular nouns here)"?
(and "SOAP" is a fluffy optionally-XML-heavy way to have pieces of
software talk to each other over optionally-the web, and "stack" means
that a rather big tower of software is needed to do that)
> * Harmony: Harmony is implementing Java 5.0 and requires support for many of the JSR that CeltiXfire will provide.
? The one JSR mentioned above is 181 which I believe is part of Java
EE and not the JDK, right? Which JSRs are you referencing?
Who?
----
> The authors of the existing code have extensive experience with open
> source already. The initial list of committers includes 9 Apache Committers.
> They are involved in:
> * Apache Continuum
> * Apache Geronimo
> * Apache ServiceMix
> * Apache Tuscany
> * Apache Yoko
and others :). There's also a lot of other people with names I don't recognize
at all, and some I can't seem to find at all from a quick scan of the celtix and
xfire dev lists. I think some more of an idea of who these people are and what
their existing involvement is would be nice. Perhaps the people on the initial
committer list could add details (like affiliation and which codebases they work
on now) to the wiki page?
What is needed?
---------------
> == ASF Resources to be Created ==
...
> * Official Build Systems
What does this mean?
> == Sponsor ==
> We kindly request the Incubator PMC to accept sponsorship for this proposal.
Though some clarifications (see above) would be nice, I see no particular reason
to withold a +1 beyond that (but oh, how I would sometimes *love* to be able to
decide technical direction for the ASF :P ).
LSD
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Yoav Shapira <yo...@apache.org>.
Hola,
Cool overall. Would it be possible to detail the affiliations of the
(relatively large) initial committers, so that we can tell how homo-
or heterogeneous that community is at the moment?
Yoav
On 6/20/06, Sakala, Adinarayana <AS...@iona.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Below is a project proposal for incubation consideration.
> The project welcomes your feedback as well as interest in involvement.
> This proposal is also located online at http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/CeltiXfireProposal
>
> == CeltiXfire Proposal ==
>
> Project CeltiXfire is a SOA infrastructure framework focused on implementation of JCP and web service standards while also providing extensibility for legacy integration. It is a merge of two matured open source projects and communities, ObjectWeb Celtix (http://celtix.objectweb.org) and Codehaus Xfire (http://xfire.codehaus.org). It will implement the JAX-WS, JAX-WSA, and JSR-181 standards. Core to this is support for web service standards like SOAP 1.1, SOAP 1.2, WS-I BasicProfile, WS-Security, WS-Addressing, WS-RM, and WS-Policy. This project will support several programming models like JAX-WS, JBI (ServiceMix), SCA (Tuscany), and CORBA services (Yoko). We will leverage open source components wherever possible, for example we intend to use WSS4J for ws-security from the Apache Web Services project. One goal of this project is to provide public APIs that match the JSR standards. Furthermore, the scope of this project is to provide SOA infrastructure for both modern web services and for legacy systems. The seed code has been designed to provide a pluggable architecture to support both XML and non-XML type bindings in combination with any type of transport. For example, Celtix is in the process of being extended to provide a CORBA binding as part of the Apache Yoko project (in incubation). Additional examples of non-XML bindings that could be supported in the future include fixed length record bindings, which are critical to integrating mainframe systems into a SOA. The current infrastructure code is designed for flexible deployment in a variety of containers including JBI, J2EE, SCA and servlet containers.
>
> == Rationale ==
> The project is interested in moving to Apache for the following reasons: To provide Apache-licensed implementations of the relevant web service JSR standards: JAX-WS, JAX-WSA, JSR-181, and JSR-265 standards and to test those implementations with the applicable JSR TCKs, to become better integrated with the Geronimo, Harmony, ServiceMix, Tuscany, Yoko and Apache Web Services communities, and to build a strong vendor-neutral community that will outlast any one person's or company's participation.
>
> == Meritocracy ==
> The Codehaus Xfire and ObjectWeb Celtix projects have fostered a development community based around meritocracy. Many of the committers already work on other Apache projects and understand the Apache way. The individuals understand that they are responsible for the code, and that the community around the project will define the direction.
>
> == Community ==
> The CeltiXfire Community will bring together two already successful communities - Xfire and Celtix. Both projects have active users and contributors on the mailing lists.
>
> == Core Developers ==
> The CeltiXfire project's initial committers include a diverse set of individuals. Some of the individuals are employed by Envoi Solutions, IONA, BEA, LogicBlaze and Red Hat, and some are not funded by any particular employer.
>
> == Alignment ==
> CeltiXfire currently uses and integrates with many Apache projects but does not have hard dependencies on these (in alphabetical order):
> * ActiveMQ is used as the default JMS implementation.
> * Continuum: Apache Continuum currently uses XFire for its SOAP integration.
> * Harmony: Harmony is implementing Java 5.0 and requires support for many of the JSR that CeltiXfire will provide.
> * Jakarta Commons HttpClient can be used for the HTTP client transport.
> * Geronimo: Celtix already provides Geronimo integration. CeltiXfire will continue this effort and will be made available so that Geronimo could use CeltiXfire as its JAX-WS implementation for JEE.
> * ServiceMix: Codehaus XFire is currently used within ServiceMix to provide web service integration. Celtix provides its own JBI integration for ServiceMix as well, although JBI is an option and not a requirement for Celtix implementation.
> * Maven 2: Celtix and Xfire already provide Maven 2 plug-ins for invoking the Celtix and Xfire tooling.
> * Tuscany: Celtix is already integrated with Tuscany.
> * WSS4J: CeltiXfire uses Apache WSS4J for WS-Security support.
> * XMLBeans is currently used as one of the data-binding options for CeltiXfire.
> * XmlSchema: CeltiXfire uses XmlSchema for many schema related functions internally.
> * Yoko: Celtix is already integrated with Yoko to provide support for exposing CORBA services as web services.
>
> We are currently evaluating the use of other Apache projects as well like Woden, Neethi and JaxMe.
>
> == Avoiding the Warning Signs ==
>
> === Orphaned products ===
> CeltiXfire is a merging of two successful open source projects, ObjectWeb Celtix and Codehaus Xfire. Both have active communities and developers. CeltiXfire provides support for some important specifications to Java community, we expect that this project will continue to grow and develop within its own community, and be embraced by many other open source projects as well.
>
> === Inexperience with open source ===
> The authors of the existing code have extensive experience with open source already. The initial list of committers includes 9 Apache Committers. They are involved in:
> * Apache Continuum
> * Apache Geronimo
> * Apache ServiceMix
> * Apache Tuscany
> * Apache Yoko
>
> === Homogeneous developers ===
> The project's initial committers include individuals that are employed by a diverse set of companies, including Envoi Solutions, IONA, LogicBlaze, BEA and Red Hat. About 2/3 of the initial committers are employed by IONA. Additionally the project has several committers whose work is not funded by any particular employer.
>
> === Reliance on Salaried Developers ===
> Many of the developers are salaried, but they are spread out over several organizations. Several other developers are contributing to this project without any connection to an employer.
>
> === No ties to other Apache products ===
> Both ObjectWeb Celtix and Codehaus Xfire currently use many Apache projects. These have been outlined in the "alignment" section.
>
> === A fascination with the Apache brand ===
> While we expect the Apache brand may help attract more contributors, our interests in starting this project is based on the factors mentioned in the Rationale section. However, we will be sensitive to inadvertent abuse of the Apache brand and will work with the Incubator PMC and the PRC to ensure the brand policies are respected.
>
> === Scope of Subprojects ===
> No subprojects proposed.
>
> == Initial Source ==
> The Celtix codebase is owned by IONA. It is currently available under both EPL and LGPL licenses (http://celtix.objectweb.org). The applicable code will be relicensed under the Apache License 2.0. The Codehaus Xfire codebase is owned by Envoi Solutions LLC and is available under an MIT license (http://xfire.codehaus.org). The applicable code will be relicensed under the Apache Software License 2.0. The dependencies all have Apache compatible licenses. These include BSD, CDDL, CPL, MPL and MIT licensed dependencies.
>
> == ASF Resources to be Created ==
> * Mailing lists
> * cxf-dev
> * cxf-user
> * cxf-commits
> * cxf-ppmc
> * SVN Repository https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/cxf
> * JIRA CeltiXfire (CeltiXfire)
> * Official Build Systems
>
> == Initial Committers ==
> * Adi Sakala
> * Dan Diephouse
> * Guillaume Nodet
> * James Strachan
> * David Blevins
> * Peter Royal
> * Daniel Kulp
> * Balaji Ravi
> * Conrad O'Dea
> * Hani Suileman
> * Mika Goekel
> * Adam Kramer
> * Tomek Sztelak
> * Stuart Edmondston
> * Bozhong Lin
> * Jervis Liu
> * Julian Squires
> * James Mao
> * Jim Ma
> * Freeman Fang
> * Tom Li
> * Willem Jiang
> * Andrea Smyth
> * Eoghan Glynn
> * Debbie Moynihan
> * Ajay Paibir
> * Ulhas Bhole
> * Sean O'Callaghan
> * Peter Jones
> * Eric Johnson
> * Brian Zotter
> * Mark Little
>
> == Sponsor ==
> We kindly request the Incubator PMC to accept sponsorship for this proposal.
>
> == Champion ==
> Jason Van Zyl
>
> == Mentors ==
> * Jason Van Zyl
> * Jim Jagielski
> * James Strachan
>
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>
>
--
Yoav Shapira
Nimalex LLC
1 Mifflin Place, Suite 310
Cambridge, MA, USA
yoavs@computer.org / www.yoavshapira.com
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 13:52 -0400, Sakala, Adinarayana wrote:
> == Core Developers == The CeltiXfire project's initial committers
> include a diverse set of individuals. Some of the individuals are
> employed by Envoi Solutions, IONA, BEA, LogicBlaze and Red Hat, and
> some are not funded by any particular employer.
RedHat/JBoss is always an interesting creature :). Is this a statement
that JBoss is going to build their "SOA infrastructure" using
Celtixfire?
Is Mark really going to write code for Celtixfire? The initial list of
committers should only be people who will actually write code.
Sanjiva.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Daniel Kulp <da...@iona.com>.
Dims,
(I appologize if this doesn't "thread" properly. I'm replying to a message in
a digest as I wasn't a subsciber to this list until a few minutes ago. I'm
not sure how well that works.)
> Are u with me so far?
>
> - CeltixFire's vision is to be a SOA Infrastructure project with all
> things pluggable.
> - CeltixFire aims to include both ServiceMix and Tuscany
I'm not sure if "include" is the right word here. More like "integrate
with" or "provide services to" or similar. I don't expect CeltiXfire to ship
copies of Tuscany or ServiceMix.
> - ServiceMix and Tuscany both support multiple soap engines AFAIK.
>
> Again, Are u with me so far?
>
> So, why is it a crime to ask if Axis2 can be one-of-many pluggable
> soap engine in a "SOA Infrastructure" project?
> Where did my logic go haywire?
You didn't "go haywire" and you are completely correct. In the future as we
go forward, there is no reason why we wouldn't be able to plug an Axis 2
based soap stack into CeltiXfire. Just "not right now" only due to
technical reasons related to timing. We're already busy trying to get our
heads around two large code bases, merging them together, figuring out
differences/similarities, etc.... As anyone that has tried that before
knows, that's enough of a headache. Throwing a third piece of technology
would cause even more headaches (and delays).
Likewise, in the future, we hope to work with other Apache projects like
Synapse and others to integrate CeltiXfire capabilities into those projects.
If the stacks in those projects are truely "pluggable" (aka, not directly
tied to Axis 2), that should be possible and welcome from those projects.
Tuscany was just one of the first instances where we've done that from the
Celtix team. (we have also done some work with Geronimo, Petals, JOnAS,
etc..., but I don't know all the details on those) I believe ServiceMix
and several others have done so with XFire.
Anyway, once we've completely moved the codebases to apache (assuming
acceptance) and finished (strong word, more like "come close to stabilizing")
the integration/merger stuff, we'd definitely welcome help in providing
alternative plugins, additional capabilities, other improvements. Accepting
those contributions is a very important part of the community, especially as
we try to grow the community, foster discussions, etc...
The other thing we will be working on is helping those other
projects "upgrade" to the new CeltiXFire code. Since we are merging
codebases, there WILL be API changes (obviously, all the package names change
to org.apache), idea changes, etc... and we hope to be involved with the
other projects in guiding/helping them to use the newer apache based code
instead of/in addition to the older ObjectWeb/Codehaus code.
Those are good question and very valid concerns. I hope this helps alleviate
some of them.
--
J. Daniel Kulp
Principal Engineer
IONA
P: 781-902-8727 C: 508-380-7194 F:781-902-8001
daniel.kulp@iona.com
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@gmail.com>.
On 6/22/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dan,
>
> ok. let's stick to the technical side for a minute and let me layout a logic.
>
> - Tuscany started with an Axis1 binding and then they added Axis2.
> When Celtix guys wanted to do the same, We welcomed Dan and got him
> cranking.
> - So Tuscany is better off now as a container that supports multiple
> soap engines.
>
> Are u with me so far?
>
> - CeltixFire's vision is to be a SOA Infrastructure project with all
> things pluggable.
Essentially aiming to be a JAX-WS/JAX-WSA/JSR181 provider (SOA's a big
space with lots of technologies so I like to be specific when talking
about it)
> - CeltixFire aims to include both ServiceMix and Tuscany
Integrate with rather than include; I doubt CeltixFire will have
ServiceMix and Tuscany inside it by default ;). Though I'd image both
ServiceMix & Tuscany might use CeltixFire inside them as a pluggable
option (ditto with Axis1/2)
> - ServiceMix and Tuscany both support multiple soap engines AFAIK.
Yes - the whole point of JBI is to support pluggable binding
components so yes ServiceMix should support every possible SOAP stack
(Axis*, CeltixFire and Sun's JAX-WS RI).
> Again, Are u with me so far?
Yes
> So, why is it a crime to ask if Axis2 can be one-of-many pluggable
> soap engine in a "SOA Infrastructure" project?
I wasn't aware of anyone saying that? AFAIK all projects are happy to
plug in different providers of things. SOA is all about integrating
different things together afterall ;).
I'm looking forward to seeing more cross-project collaboration during
the incubation.
--
James
-------
http://radio.weblogs.com/0112098/
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Dan,
ok. let's stick to the technical side for a minute and let me layout a logic.
- Tuscany started with an Axis1 binding and then they added Axis2.
When Celtix guys wanted to do the same, We welcomed Dan and got him
cranking.
- So Tuscany is better off now as a container that supports multiple
soap engines.
Are u with me so far?
- CeltixFire's vision is to be a SOA Infrastructure project with all
things pluggable.
- CeltixFire aims to include both ServiceMix and Tuscany
- ServiceMix and Tuscany both support multiple soap engines AFAIK.
Again, Are u with me so far?
So, why is it a crime to ask if Axis2 can be one-of-many pluggable
soap engine in a "SOA Infrastructure" project?
Where did my logic go haywire?
thanks,
dims
On 6/21/06, Dan Diephouse <da...@envoisolutions.com> wrote:
> Hi Dims,
>
> Comments inline.
>
> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > Folks,
> >
> > I don't even know where to start. 32 people? wow!
> >
> Keep in mind we're merging two distinct communties, its additive. If you
> have ideas on how to create a somewhat smaller list without presupposing
> that a person won't contribute, I'm all ears.
> > I was looking for discussions on the celtix-dev@ [1] on xfire-dev@ [2]
> > and was unpleasantly surprised when i found nothing. I wanted to get
> > some background on what the integration points are between the 2
> > engines and did not find any. In fact there was no mention of Celtix
> > on the xfire list and vice versa. Forget about any discussions between
> > the "individuals" that compose the community about moving to Apache :(
> >
> Even at Apache, not all discussions are public. Think of the discussion
> as having occurred on a PMC list. I would also like to add that one of
> the reasons for coming to Apache is to create a good place for
> discussions going forward. Hopefully we can have some good on the list
> discussions on how the merge will look provided we get accepted.
> > Please don't call it a framework if things are not pluggable. Basic
> > example, is it possible to switch the soap engine from whatever it is
> > (or will be!) to Axis2. FWIW, it is a complete and total overlap of
> > things already in progress in various existing Apache projects.
> Is XFire not pluggable because it doesn't have an Axis2 plugin? That
> seems like an odd standard of criteria for me. (Although it is
> technically possible to intercept the message and forward it to Axis2,
> and I don't really see why that'd be technically impossible after the
> merge either).
>
> Here's a question: Why would there be blossoming XFire and Celtix
> communities if Axis2 was the end all be all of soap/web services? Its a
> complicated answer and to conclude that things are a complete overlap is
> a gross over simplification of the matter.
> > Best of luck to you all!!
> >
> > thanks,
> > dims
> >
> > [1] http://mail-archive.objectweb.org/celtix-dev/index.html
> > [2] http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.java.xfire.devel
> >
> > On 6/20/06, Sakala, Adinarayana <AS...@iona.com> wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> Below is a project proposal for incubation consideration.
> >> The project welcomes your feedback as well as interest in involvement.
> >> This proposal is also located online at
> >> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/CeltiXfireProposal
> >>
> >> == CeltiXfire Proposal ==
> >>
> >> Project CeltiXfire is a SOA infrastructure framework focused on
> >> implementation of JCP and web service standards while also providing
> >> extensibility for legacy integration. It is a merge of two matured
> >> open source projects and communities, ObjectWeb Celtix
> >> (http://celtix.objectweb.org) and Codehaus Xfire
> >> (http://xfire.codehaus.org). It will implement the JAX-WS, JAX-WSA,
> >> and JSR-181 standards. Core to this is support for web service
> >> standards like SOAP 1.1, SOAP 1.2, WS-I BasicProfile, WS-Security,
> >> WS-Addressing, WS-RM, and WS-Policy. This project will support
> >> several programming models like JAX-WS, JBI (ServiceMix), SCA
> >> (Tuscany), and CORBA services (Yoko). We will leverage open source
> >> components wherever possible, for example we intend to use WSS4J for
> >> ws-security from the Apache Web Services project. One goal of this
> >> project is to provide public APIs that match the JSR standards.
> >> Furthermore, the scope of this project is to provide SOA
> >> infrastructure for both modern web services and for legacy systems.
> >> The seed code has been designed to provide a pluggable architecture
> >> to support both XML and non-XML type bindings in combination with any
> >> type of transport. For example, Celtix is in the process of being
> >> extended to provide a CORBA binding as part of the Apache Yoko
> >> project (in incubation). Additional examples of non-XML bindings that
> >> could be supported in the future include fixed length record
> >> bindings, which are critical to integrating mainframe systems into a
> >> SOA. The current infrastructure code is designed for flexible
> >> deployment in a variety of containers including JBI, J2EE, SCA and
> >> servlet containers.
> >>
> >> == Rationale ==
> >> The project is interested in moving to Apache for the following
> >> reasons: To provide Apache-licensed implementations of the relevant
> >> web service JSR standards: JAX-WS, JAX-WSA, JSR-181, and JSR-265
> >> standards and to test those implementations with the applicable JSR
> >> TCKs, to become better integrated with the Geronimo, Harmony,
> >> ServiceMix, Tuscany, Yoko and Apache Web Services communities, and to
> >> build a strong vendor-neutral community that will outlast any one
> >> person's or company's participation.
> >>
> >> == Meritocracy ==
> >> The Codehaus Xfire and ObjectWeb Celtix projects have fostered a
> >> development community based around meritocracy. Many of the
> >> committers already work on other Apache projects and understand the
> >> Apache way. The individuals understand that they are responsible for
> >> the code, and that the community around the project will define the
> >> direction.
> >>
> >> == Community ==
> >> The CeltiXfire Community will bring together two already successful
> >> communities - Xfire and Celtix. Both projects have active users and
> >> contributors on the mailing lists.
> >>
> >> == Core Developers ==
> >> The CeltiXfire project's initial committers include a diverse set of
> >> individuals. Some of the individuals are employed by Envoi Solutions,
> >> IONA, BEA, LogicBlaze and Red Hat, and some are not funded by any
> >> particular employer.
> >>
> >> == Alignment ==
> >> CeltiXfire currently uses and integrates with many Apache projects
> >> but does not have hard dependencies on these (in alphabetical order):
> >> * ActiveMQ is used as the default JMS implementation.
> >> * Continuum: Apache Continuum currently uses XFire for its SOAP
> >> integration.
> >> * Harmony: Harmony is implementing Java 5.0 and requires support for
> >> many of the JSR that CeltiXfire will provide.
> >> * Jakarta Commons HttpClient can be used for the HTTP client transport.
> >> * Geronimo: Celtix already provides Geronimo integration. CeltiXfire
> >> will continue this effort and will be made available so that Geronimo
> >> could use CeltiXfire as its JAX-WS implementation for JEE.
> >> * ServiceMix: Codehaus XFire is currently used within ServiceMix to
> >> provide web service integration. Celtix provides its own JBI
> >> integration for ServiceMix as well, although JBI is an option and not
> >> a requirement for Celtix implementation.
> >> * Maven 2: Celtix and Xfire already provide Maven 2 plug-ins for
> >> invoking the Celtix and Xfire tooling.
> >> * Tuscany: Celtix is already integrated with Tuscany.
> >> * WSS4J: CeltiXfire uses Apache WSS4J for WS-Security support.
> >> * XMLBeans is currently used as one of the data-binding options for
> >> CeltiXfire.
> >> * XmlSchema: CeltiXfire uses XmlSchema for many schema related
> >> functions internally.
> >> * Yoko: Celtix is already integrated with Yoko to provide support
> >> for exposing CORBA services as web services.
> >>
> >> We are currently evaluating the use of other Apache projects as well
> >> like Woden, Neethi and JaxMe.
> >>
> >> == Avoiding the Warning Signs ==
> >>
> >> === Orphaned products ===
> >> CeltiXfire is a merging of two successful open source projects,
> >> ObjectWeb Celtix and Codehaus Xfire. Both have active communities and
> >> developers. CeltiXfire provides support for some important
> >> specifications to Java community, we expect that this project will
> >> continue to grow and develop within its own community, and be
> >> embraced by many other open source projects as well.
> >>
> >> === Inexperience with open source ===
> >> The authors of the existing code have extensive experience with open
> >> source already. The initial list of committers includes 9 Apache
> >> Committers. They are involved in:
> >> * Apache Continuum
> >> * Apache Geronimo
> >> * Apache ServiceMix
> >> * Apache Tuscany
> >> * Apache Yoko
> >>
> >> === Homogeneous developers ===
> >> The project's initial committers include individuals that are
> >> employed by a diverse set of companies, including Envoi Solutions,
> >> IONA, LogicBlaze, BEA and Red Hat. About 2/3 of the initial
> >> committers are employed by IONA. Additionally the project has
> >> several committers whose work is not funded by any particular employer.
> >>
> >> === Reliance on Salaried Developers ===
> >> Many of the developers are salaried, but they are spread out over
> >> several organizations. Several other developers are contributing to
> >> this project without any connection to an employer.
> >>
> >> === No ties to other Apache products ===
> >> Both ObjectWeb Celtix and Codehaus Xfire currently use many Apache
> >> projects. These have been outlined in the "alignment" section.
> >>
> >> === A fascination with the Apache brand ===
> >> While we expect the Apache brand may help attract more contributors,
> >> our interests in starting this project is based on the factors
> >> mentioned in the Rationale section. However, we will be sensitive to
> >> inadvertent abuse of the Apache brand and will work with the
> >> Incubator PMC and the PRC to ensure the brand policies are respected.
> >>
> >> === Scope of Subprojects ===
> >> No subprojects proposed.
> >>
> >> == Initial Source ==
> >> The Celtix codebase is owned by IONA. It is currently available under
> >> both EPL and LGPL licenses (http://celtix.objectweb.org). The
> >> applicable code will be relicensed under the Apache License 2.0. The
> >> Codehaus Xfire codebase is owned by Envoi Solutions LLC and is
> >> available under an MIT license (http://xfire.codehaus.org). The
> >> applicable code will be relicensed under the Apache Software License
> >> 2.0. The dependencies all have Apache compatible licenses. These
> >> include BSD, CDDL, CPL, MPL and MIT licensed dependencies.
> >>
> >> == ASF Resources to be Created ==
> >> * Mailing lists
> >> * cxf-dev
> >> * cxf-user
> >> * cxf-commits
> >> * cxf-ppmc
> >> * SVN Repository https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/cxf
> >> * JIRA CeltiXfire (CeltiXfire)
> >> * Official Build Systems
> >>
> >> == Initial Committers ==
> >> * Adi Sakala
> >> * Dan Diephouse
> >> * Guillaume Nodet
> >> * James Strachan
> >> * David Blevins
> >> * Peter Royal
> >> * Daniel Kulp
> >> * Balaji Ravi
> >> * Conrad O'Dea
> >> * Hani Suileman
> >> * Mika Goekel
> >> * Adam Kramer
> >> * Tomek Sztelak
> >> * Stuart Edmondston
> >> * Bozhong Lin
> >> * Jervis Liu
> >> * Julian Squires
> >> * James Mao
> >> * Jim Ma
> >> * Freeman Fang
> >> * Tom Li
> >> * Willem Jiang
> >> * Andrea Smyth
> >> * Eoghan Glynn
> >> * Debbie Moynihan
> >> * Ajay Paibir
> >> * Ulhas Bhole
> >> * Sean O'Callaghan
> >> * Peter Jones
> >> * Eric Johnson
> >> * Brian Zotter
> >> * Mark Little
> >>
> >> == Sponsor ==
> >> We kindly request the Incubator PMC to accept sponsorship for this
> >> proposal.
> >>
> >> == Champion ==
> >> Jason Van Zyl
> >>
> >> == Mentors ==
> >> * Jason Van Zyl
> >> * Jim Jagielski
> >> * James Strachan
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Dan Diephouse
> Envoi Solutions
> http://envoisolutions.com
> http://netzooid.com/blog
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Dan Diephouse <da...@envoisolutions.com>.
Hi Dims,
Comments inline.
Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Folks,
>
> I don't even know where to start. 32 people? wow!
>
Keep in mind we're merging two distinct communties, its additive. If you
have ideas on how to create a somewhat smaller list without presupposing
that a person won't contribute, I'm all ears.
> I was looking for discussions on the celtix-dev@ [1] on xfire-dev@ [2]
> and was unpleasantly surprised when i found nothing. I wanted to get
> some background on what the integration points are between the 2
> engines and did not find any. In fact there was no mention of Celtix
> on the xfire list and vice versa. Forget about any discussions between
> the "individuals" that compose the community about moving to Apache :(
>
Even at Apache, not all discussions are public. Think of the discussion
as having occurred on a PMC list. I would also like to add that one of
the reasons for coming to Apache is to create a good place for
discussions going forward. Hopefully we can have some good on the list
discussions on how the merge will look provided we get accepted.
> Please don't call it a framework if things are not pluggable. Basic
> example, is it possible to switch the soap engine from whatever it is
> (or will be!) to Axis2. FWIW, it is a complete and total overlap of
> things already in progress in various existing Apache projects.
Is XFire not pluggable because it doesn't have an Axis2 plugin? That
seems like an odd standard of criteria for me. (Although it is
technically possible to intercept the message and forward it to Axis2,
and I don't really see why that'd be technically impossible after the
merge either).
Here's a question: Why would there be blossoming XFire and Celtix
communities if Axis2 was the end all be all of soap/web services? Its a
complicated answer and to conclude that things are a complete overlap is
a gross over simplification of the matter.
> Best of luck to you all!!
>
> thanks,
> dims
>
> [1] http://mail-archive.objectweb.org/celtix-dev/index.html
> [2] http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.java.xfire.devel
>
> On 6/20/06, Sakala, Adinarayana <AS...@iona.com> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Below is a project proposal for incubation consideration.
>> The project welcomes your feedback as well as interest in involvement.
>> This proposal is also located online at
>> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/CeltiXfireProposal
>>
>> == CeltiXfire Proposal ==
>>
>> Project CeltiXfire is a SOA infrastructure framework focused on
>> implementation of JCP and web service standards while also providing
>> extensibility for legacy integration. It is a merge of two matured
>> open source projects and communities, ObjectWeb Celtix
>> (http://celtix.objectweb.org) and Codehaus Xfire
>> (http://xfire.codehaus.org). It will implement the JAX-WS, JAX-WSA,
>> and JSR-181 standards. Core to this is support for web service
>> standards like SOAP 1.1, SOAP 1.2, WS-I BasicProfile, WS-Security,
>> WS-Addressing, WS-RM, and WS-Policy. This project will support
>> several programming models like JAX-WS, JBI (ServiceMix), SCA
>> (Tuscany), and CORBA services (Yoko). We will leverage open source
>> components wherever possible, for example we intend to use WSS4J for
>> ws-security from the Apache Web Services project. One goal of this
>> project is to provide public APIs that match the JSR standards.
>> Furthermore, the scope of this project is to provide SOA
>> infrastructure for both modern web services and for legacy systems.
>> The seed code has been designed to provide a pluggable architecture
>> to support both XML and non-XML type bindings in combination with any
>> type of transport. For example, Celtix is in the process of being
>> extended to provide a CORBA binding as part of the Apache Yoko
>> project (in incubation). Additional examples of non-XML bindings that
>> could be supported in the future include fixed length record
>> bindings, which are critical to integrating mainframe systems into a
>> SOA. The current infrastructure code is designed for flexible
>> deployment in a variety of containers including JBI, J2EE, SCA and
>> servlet containers.
>>
>> == Rationale ==
>> The project is interested in moving to Apache for the following
>> reasons: To provide Apache-licensed implementations of the relevant
>> web service JSR standards: JAX-WS, JAX-WSA, JSR-181, and JSR-265
>> standards and to test those implementations with the applicable JSR
>> TCKs, to become better integrated with the Geronimo, Harmony,
>> ServiceMix, Tuscany, Yoko and Apache Web Services communities, and to
>> build a strong vendor-neutral community that will outlast any one
>> person's or company's participation.
>>
>> == Meritocracy ==
>> The Codehaus Xfire and ObjectWeb Celtix projects have fostered a
>> development community based around meritocracy. Many of the
>> committers already work on other Apache projects and understand the
>> Apache way. The individuals understand that they are responsible for
>> the code, and that the community around the project will define the
>> direction.
>>
>> == Community ==
>> The CeltiXfire Community will bring together two already successful
>> communities - Xfire and Celtix. Both projects have active users and
>> contributors on the mailing lists.
>>
>> == Core Developers ==
>> The CeltiXfire project's initial committers include a diverse set of
>> individuals. Some of the individuals are employed by Envoi Solutions,
>> IONA, BEA, LogicBlaze and Red Hat, and some are not funded by any
>> particular employer.
>>
>> == Alignment ==
>> CeltiXfire currently uses and integrates with many Apache projects
>> but does not have hard dependencies on these (in alphabetical order):
>> * ActiveMQ is used as the default JMS implementation.
>> * Continuum: Apache Continuum currently uses XFire for its SOAP
>> integration.
>> * Harmony: Harmony is implementing Java 5.0 and requires support for
>> many of the JSR that CeltiXfire will provide.
>> * Jakarta Commons HttpClient can be used for the HTTP client transport.
>> * Geronimo: Celtix already provides Geronimo integration. CeltiXfire
>> will continue this effort and will be made available so that Geronimo
>> could use CeltiXfire as its JAX-WS implementation for JEE.
>> * ServiceMix: Codehaus XFire is currently used within ServiceMix to
>> provide web service integration. Celtix provides its own JBI
>> integration for ServiceMix as well, although JBI is an option and not
>> a requirement for Celtix implementation.
>> * Maven 2: Celtix and Xfire already provide Maven 2 plug-ins for
>> invoking the Celtix and Xfire tooling.
>> * Tuscany: Celtix is already integrated with Tuscany.
>> * WSS4J: CeltiXfire uses Apache WSS4J for WS-Security support.
>> * XMLBeans is currently used as one of the data-binding options for
>> CeltiXfire.
>> * XmlSchema: CeltiXfire uses XmlSchema for many schema related
>> functions internally.
>> * Yoko: Celtix is already integrated with Yoko to provide support
>> for exposing CORBA services as web services.
>>
>> We are currently evaluating the use of other Apache projects as well
>> like Woden, Neethi and JaxMe.
>>
>> == Avoiding the Warning Signs ==
>>
>> === Orphaned products ===
>> CeltiXfire is a merging of two successful open source projects,
>> ObjectWeb Celtix and Codehaus Xfire. Both have active communities and
>> developers. CeltiXfire provides support for some important
>> specifications to Java community, we expect that this project will
>> continue to grow and develop within its own community, and be
>> embraced by many other open source projects as well.
>>
>> === Inexperience with open source ===
>> The authors of the existing code have extensive experience with open
>> source already. The initial list of committers includes 9 Apache
>> Committers. They are involved in:
>> * Apache Continuum
>> * Apache Geronimo
>> * Apache ServiceMix
>> * Apache Tuscany
>> * Apache Yoko
>>
>> === Homogeneous developers ===
>> The project's initial committers include individuals that are
>> employed by a diverse set of companies, including Envoi Solutions,
>> IONA, LogicBlaze, BEA and Red Hat. About 2/3 of the initial
>> committers are employed by IONA. Additionally the project has
>> several committers whose work is not funded by any particular employer.
>>
>> === Reliance on Salaried Developers ===
>> Many of the developers are salaried, but they are spread out over
>> several organizations. Several other developers are contributing to
>> this project without any connection to an employer.
>>
>> === No ties to other Apache products ===
>> Both ObjectWeb Celtix and Codehaus Xfire currently use many Apache
>> projects. These have been outlined in the "alignment" section.
>>
>> === A fascination with the Apache brand ===
>> While we expect the Apache brand may help attract more contributors,
>> our interests in starting this project is based on the factors
>> mentioned in the Rationale section. However, we will be sensitive to
>> inadvertent abuse of the Apache brand and will work with the
>> Incubator PMC and the PRC to ensure the brand policies are respected.
>>
>> === Scope of Subprojects ===
>> No subprojects proposed.
>>
>> == Initial Source ==
>> The Celtix codebase is owned by IONA. It is currently available under
>> both EPL and LGPL licenses (http://celtix.objectweb.org). The
>> applicable code will be relicensed under the Apache License 2.0. The
>> Codehaus Xfire codebase is owned by Envoi Solutions LLC and is
>> available under an MIT license (http://xfire.codehaus.org). The
>> applicable code will be relicensed under the Apache Software License
>> 2.0. The dependencies all have Apache compatible licenses. These
>> include BSD, CDDL, CPL, MPL and MIT licensed dependencies.
>>
>> == ASF Resources to be Created ==
>> * Mailing lists
>> * cxf-dev
>> * cxf-user
>> * cxf-commits
>> * cxf-ppmc
>> * SVN Repository https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/cxf
>> * JIRA CeltiXfire (CeltiXfire)
>> * Official Build Systems
>>
>> == Initial Committers ==
>> * Adi Sakala
>> * Dan Diephouse
>> * Guillaume Nodet
>> * James Strachan
>> * David Blevins
>> * Peter Royal
>> * Daniel Kulp
>> * Balaji Ravi
>> * Conrad O'Dea
>> * Hani Suileman
>> * Mika Goekel
>> * Adam Kramer
>> * Tomek Sztelak
>> * Stuart Edmondston
>> * Bozhong Lin
>> * Jervis Liu
>> * Julian Squires
>> * James Mao
>> * Jim Ma
>> * Freeman Fang
>> * Tom Li
>> * Willem Jiang
>> * Andrea Smyth
>> * Eoghan Glynn
>> * Debbie Moynihan
>> * Ajay Paibir
>> * Ulhas Bhole
>> * Sean O'Callaghan
>> * Peter Jones
>> * Eric Johnson
>> * Brian Zotter
>> * Mark Little
>>
>> == Sponsor ==
>> We kindly request the Incubator PMC to accept sponsorship for this
>> proposal.
>>
>> == Champion ==
>> Jason Van Zyl
>>
>> == Mentors ==
>> * Jason Van Zyl
>> * Jim Jagielski
>> * James Strachan
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
--
Dan Diephouse
Envoi Solutions
http://envoisolutions.com
http://netzooid.com/blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Folks,
I don't even know where to start. 32 people? wow!
I was looking for discussions on the celtix-dev@ [1] on xfire-dev@ [2]
and was unpleasantly surprised when i found nothing. I wanted to get
some background on what the integration points are between the 2
engines and did not find any. In fact there was no mention of Celtix
on the xfire list and vice versa. Forget about any discussions between
the "individuals" that compose the community about moving to Apache :(
Please don't call it a framework if things are not pluggable. Basic
example, is it possible to switch the soap engine from whatever it is
(or will be!) to Axis2. FWIW, it is a complete and total overlap of
things already in progress in various existing Apache projects.
Best of luck to you all!!
thanks,
dims
[1] http://mail-archive.objectweb.org/celtix-dev/index.html
[2] http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.java.xfire.devel
On 6/20/06, Sakala, Adinarayana <AS...@iona.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Below is a project proposal for incubation consideration.
> The project welcomes your feedback as well as interest in involvement.
> This proposal is also located online at http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/CeltiXfireProposal
>
> == CeltiXfire Proposal ==
>
> Project CeltiXfire is a SOA infrastructure framework focused on implementation of JCP and web service standards while also providing extensibility for legacy integration. It is a merge of two matured open source projects and communities, ObjectWeb Celtix (http://celtix.objectweb.org) and Codehaus Xfire (http://xfire.codehaus.org). It will implement the JAX-WS, JAX-WSA, and JSR-181 standards. Core to this is support for web service standards like SOAP 1.1, SOAP 1.2, WS-I BasicProfile, WS-Security, WS-Addressing, WS-RM, and WS-Policy. This project will support several programming models like JAX-WS, JBI (ServiceMix), SCA (Tuscany), and CORBA services (Yoko). We will leverage open source components wherever possible, for example we intend to use WSS4J for ws-security from the Apache Web Services project. One goal of this project is to provide public APIs that match the JSR standards. Furthermore, the scope of this project is to provide SOA infrastructure for both modern web services and for legacy systems. The seed code has been designed to provide a pluggable architecture to support both XML and non-XML type bindings in combination with any type of transport. For example, Celtix is in the process of being extended to provide a CORBA binding as part of the Apache Yoko project (in incubation). Additional examples of non-XML bindings that could be supported in the future include fixed length record bindings, which are critical to integrating mainframe systems into a SOA. The current infrastructure code is designed for flexible deployment in a variety of containers including JBI, J2EE, SCA and servlet containers.
>
> == Rationale ==
> The project is interested in moving to Apache for the following reasons: To provide Apache-licensed implementations of the relevant web service JSR standards: JAX-WS, JAX-WSA, JSR-181, and JSR-265 standards and to test those implementations with the applicable JSR TCKs, to become better integrated with the Geronimo, Harmony, ServiceMix, Tuscany, Yoko and Apache Web Services communities, and to build a strong vendor-neutral community that will outlast any one person's or company's participation.
>
> == Meritocracy ==
> The Codehaus Xfire and ObjectWeb Celtix projects have fostered a development community based around meritocracy. Many of the committers already work on other Apache projects and understand the Apache way. The individuals understand that they are responsible for the code, and that the community around the project will define the direction.
>
> == Community ==
> The CeltiXfire Community will bring together two already successful communities - Xfire and Celtix. Both projects have active users and contributors on the mailing lists.
>
> == Core Developers ==
> The CeltiXfire project's initial committers include a diverse set of individuals. Some of the individuals are employed by Envoi Solutions, IONA, BEA, LogicBlaze and Red Hat, and some are not funded by any particular employer.
>
> == Alignment ==
> CeltiXfire currently uses and integrates with many Apache projects but does not have hard dependencies on these (in alphabetical order):
> * ActiveMQ is used as the default JMS implementation.
> * Continuum: Apache Continuum currently uses XFire for its SOAP integration.
> * Harmony: Harmony is implementing Java 5.0 and requires support for many of the JSR that CeltiXfire will provide.
> * Jakarta Commons HttpClient can be used for the HTTP client transport.
> * Geronimo: Celtix already provides Geronimo integration. CeltiXfire will continue this effort and will be made available so that Geronimo could use CeltiXfire as its JAX-WS implementation for JEE.
> * ServiceMix: Codehaus XFire is currently used within ServiceMix to provide web service integration. Celtix provides its own JBI integration for ServiceMix as well, although JBI is an option and not a requirement for Celtix implementation.
> * Maven 2: Celtix and Xfire already provide Maven 2 plug-ins for invoking the Celtix and Xfire tooling.
> * Tuscany: Celtix is already integrated with Tuscany.
> * WSS4J: CeltiXfire uses Apache WSS4J for WS-Security support.
> * XMLBeans is currently used as one of the data-binding options for CeltiXfire.
> * XmlSchema: CeltiXfire uses XmlSchema for many schema related functions internally.
> * Yoko: Celtix is already integrated with Yoko to provide support for exposing CORBA services as web services.
>
> We are currently evaluating the use of other Apache projects as well like Woden, Neethi and JaxMe.
>
> == Avoiding the Warning Signs ==
>
> === Orphaned products ===
> CeltiXfire is a merging of two successful open source projects, ObjectWeb Celtix and Codehaus Xfire. Both have active communities and developers. CeltiXfire provides support for some important specifications to Java community, we expect that this project will continue to grow and develop within its own community, and be embraced by many other open source projects as well.
>
> === Inexperience with open source ===
> The authors of the existing code have extensive experience with open source already. The initial list of committers includes 9 Apache Committers. They are involved in:
> * Apache Continuum
> * Apache Geronimo
> * Apache ServiceMix
> * Apache Tuscany
> * Apache Yoko
>
> === Homogeneous developers ===
> The project's initial committers include individuals that are employed by a diverse set of companies, including Envoi Solutions, IONA, LogicBlaze, BEA and Red Hat. About 2/3 of the initial committers are employed by IONA. Additionally the project has several committers whose work is not funded by any particular employer.
>
> === Reliance on Salaried Developers ===
> Many of the developers are salaried, but they are spread out over several organizations. Several other developers are contributing to this project without any connection to an employer.
>
> === No ties to other Apache products ===
> Both ObjectWeb Celtix and Codehaus Xfire currently use many Apache projects. These have been outlined in the "alignment" section.
>
> === A fascination with the Apache brand ===
> While we expect the Apache brand may help attract more contributors, our interests in starting this project is based on the factors mentioned in the Rationale section. However, we will be sensitive to inadvertent abuse of the Apache brand and will work with the Incubator PMC and the PRC to ensure the brand policies are respected.
>
> === Scope of Subprojects ===
> No subprojects proposed.
>
> == Initial Source ==
> The Celtix codebase is owned by IONA. It is currently available under both EPL and LGPL licenses (http://celtix.objectweb.org). The applicable code will be relicensed under the Apache License 2.0. The Codehaus Xfire codebase is owned by Envoi Solutions LLC and is available under an MIT license (http://xfire.codehaus.org). The applicable code will be relicensed under the Apache Software License 2.0. The dependencies all have Apache compatible licenses. These include BSD, CDDL, CPL, MPL and MIT licensed dependencies.
>
> == ASF Resources to be Created ==
> * Mailing lists
> * cxf-dev
> * cxf-user
> * cxf-commits
> * cxf-ppmc
> * SVN Repository https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/cxf
> * JIRA CeltiXfire (CeltiXfire)
> * Official Build Systems
>
> == Initial Committers ==
> * Adi Sakala
> * Dan Diephouse
> * Guillaume Nodet
> * James Strachan
> * David Blevins
> * Peter Royal
> * Daniel Kulp
> * Balaji Ravi
> * Conrad O'Dea
> * Hani Suileman
> * Mika Goekel
> * Adam Kramer
> * Tomek Sztelak
> * Stuart Edmondston
> * Bozhong Lin
> * Jervis Liu
> * Julian Squires
> * James Mao
> * Jim Ma
> * Freeman Fang
> * Tom Li
> * Willem Jiang
> * Andrea Smyth
> * Eoghan Glynn
> * Debbie Moynihan
> * Ajay Paibir
> * Ulhas Bhole
> * Sean O'Callaghan
> * Peter Jones
> * Eric Johnson
> * Brian Zotter
> * Mark Little
>
> == Sponsor ==
> We kindly request the Incubator PMC to accept sponsorship for this proposal.
>
> == Champion ==
> Jason Van Zyl
>
> == Mentors ==
> * Jason Van Zyl
> * Jim Jagielski
> * James Strachan
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Dan Diephouse <da...@envoisolutions.com>.
Just an FYI, I somehow screwed up and one of the XFire committers got
removed from the list before it went into the Wiki. I corrected this
added Christoph Sturm back into the proposal in the wiki. Apologies for
the noise!
Cheers,
- Dan
Sakala, Adinarayana wrote:
>Hello,
>
>Below is a project proposal for incubation consideration.
>The project welcomes your feedback as well as interest in involvement.
>This proposal is also located online at http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/CeltiXfireProposal
>
>== CeltiXfire Proposal ==
>
>Project CeltiXfire is a SOA infrastructure framework focused on implementation of JCP and web service standards while also providing extensibility for legacy integration. It is a merge of two matured open source projects and communities, ObjectWeb Celtix (http://celtix.objectweb.org) and Codehaus Xfire (http://xfire.codehaus.org). It will implement the JAX-WS, JAX-WSA, and JSR-181 standards. Core to this is support for web service standards like SOAP 1.1, SOAP 1.2, WS-I BasicProfile, WS-Security, WS-Addressing, WS-RM, and WS-Policy. This project will support several programming models like JAX-WS, JBI (ServiceMix), SCA (Tuscany), and CORBA services (Yoko). We will leverage open source components wherever possible, for example we intend to use WSS4J for ws-security from the Apache Web Services project. One goal of this project is to provide public APIs that match the JSR standards. Furthermore, the scope of this project is to provide SOA infrastructure for both modern web services and for legacy systems. The seed code has been designed to provide a pluggable architecture to support both XML and non-XML type bindings in combination with any type of transport. For example, Celtix is in the process of being extended to provide a CORBA binding as part of the Apache Yoko project (in incubation). Additional examples of non-XML bindings that could be supported in the future include fixed length record bindings, which are critical to integrating mainframe systems into a SOA. The current infrastructure code is designed for flexible deployment in a variety of containers including JBI, J2EE, SCA and servlet containers.
>
>== Rationale ==
>The project is interested in moving to Apache for the following reasons: To provide Apache-licensed implementations of the relevant web service JSR standards: JAX-WS, JAX-WSA, JSR-181, and JSR-265 standards and to test those implementations with the applicable JSR TCKs, to become better integrated with the Geronimo, Harmony, ServiceMix, Tuscany, Yoko and Apache Web Services communities, and to build a strong vendor-neutral community that will outlast any one person's or company's participation.
>
>== Meritocracy ==
>The Codehaus Xfire and ObjectWeb Celtix projects have fostered a development community based around meritocracy. Many of the committers already work on other Apache projects and understand the Apache way. The individuals understand that they are responsible for the code, and that the community around the project will define the direction.
>
>== Community ==
>The CeltiXfire Community will bring together two already successful communities - Xfire and Celtix. Both projects have active users and contributors on the mailing lists.
>
>== Core Developers ==
>The CeltiXfire project's initial committers include a diverse set of individuals. Some of the individuals are employed by Envoi Solutions, IONA, BEA, LogicBlaze and Red Hat, and some are not funded by any particular employer.
>
>== Alignment ==
>CeltiXfire currently uses and integrates with many Apache projects but does not have hard dependencies on these (in alphabetical order):
> * ActiveMQ is used as the default JMS implementation.
> * Continuum: Apache Continuum currently uses XFire for its SOAP integration.
> * Harmony: Harmony is implementing Java 5.0 and requires support for many of the JSR that CeltiXfire will provide.
> * Jakarta Commons HttpClient can be used for the HTTP client transport.
> * Geronimo: Celtix already provides Geronimo integration. CeltiXfire will continue this effort and will be made available so that Geronimo could use CeltiXfire as its JAX-WS implementation for JEE.
> * ServiceMix: Codehaus XFire is currently used within ServiceMix to provide web service integration. Celtix provides its own JBI integration for ServiceMix as well, although JBI is an option and not a requirement for Celtix implementation.
> * Maven 2: Celtix and Xfire already provide Maven 2 plug-ins for invoking the Celtix and Xfire tooling.
> * Tuscany: Celtix is already integrated with Tuscany.
> * WSS4J: CeltiXfire uses Apache WSS4J for WS-Security support.
> * XMLBeans is currently used as one of the data-binding options for CeltiXfire.
> * XmlSchema: CeltiXfire uses XmlSchema for many schema related functions internally.
> * Yoko: Celtix is already integrated with Yoko to provide support for exposing CORBA services as web services.
>
>We are currently evaluating the use of other Apache projects as well like Woden, Neethi and JaxMe.
>
>== Avoiding the Warning Signs ==
>
>=== Orphaned products ===
>CeltiXfire is a merging of two successful open source projects, ObjectWeb Celtix and Codehaus Xfire. Both have active communities and developers. CeltiXfire provides support for some important specifications to Java community, we expect that this project will continue to grow and develop within its own community, and be embraced by many other open source projects as well.
>
>=== Inexperience with open source ===
>The authors of the existing code have extensive experience with open source already. The initial list of committers includes 9 Apache Committers. They are involved in:
> * Apache Continuum
> * Apache Geronimo
> * Apache ServiceMix
> * Apache Tuscany
> * Apache Yoko
>
>=== Homogeneous developers ===
>The project's initial committers include individuals that are employed by a diverse set of companies, including Envoi Solutions, IONA, LogicBlaze, BEA and Red Hat. About 2/3 of the initial committers are employed by IONA. Additionally the project has several committers whose work is not funded by any particular employer.
>
>=== Reliance on Salaried Developers ===
>Many of the developers are salaried, but they are spread out over several organizations. Several other developers are contributing to this project without any connection to an employer.
>
>=== No ties to other Apache products ===
>Both ObjectWeb Celtix and Codehaus Xfire currently use many Apache projects. These have been outlined in the "alignment" section.
>
>=== A fascination with the Apache brand ===
>While we expect the Apache brand may help attract more contributors, our interests in starting this project is based on the factors mentioned in the Rationale section. However, we will be sensitive to inadvertent abuse of the Apache brand and will work with the Incubator PMC and the PRC to ensure the brand policies are respected.
>
>=== Scope of Subprojects ===
>No subprojects proposed.
>
>== Initial Source ==
>The Celtix codebase is owned by IONA. It is currently available under both EPL and LGPL licenses (http://celtix.objectweb.org). The applicable code will be relicensed under the Apache License 2.0. The Codehaus Xfire codebase is owned by Envoi Solutions LLC and is available under an MIT license (http://xfire.codehaus.org). The applicable code will be relicensed under the Apache Software License 2.0. The dependencies all have Apache compatible licenses. These include BSD, CDDL, CPL, MPL and MIT licensed dependencies.
>
>== ASF Resources to be Created ==
> * Mailing lists
> * cxf-dev
> * cxf-user
> * cxf-commits
> * cxf-ppmc
> * SVN Repository https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/cxf
> * JIRA CeltiXfire (CeltiXfire)
> * Official Build Systems
>
>== Initial Committers ==
> * Adi Sakala
> * Dan Diephouse
> * Guillaume Nodet
> * James Strachan
> * David Blevins
> * Peter Royal
> * Daniel Kulp
> * Balaji Ravi
> * Conrad O'Dea
> * Hani Suileman
> * Mika Goekel
> * Adam Kramer
> * Tomek Sztelak
> * Stuart Edmondston
> * Bozhong Lin
> * Jervis Liu
> * Julian Squires
> * James Mao
> * Jim Ma
> * Freeman Fang
> * Tom Li
> * Willem Jiang
> * Andrea Smyth
> * Eoghan Glynn
> * Debbie Moynihan
> * Ajay Paibir
> * Ulhas Bhole
> * Sean O'Callaghan
> * Peter Jones
> * Eric Johnson
> * Brian Zotter
> * Mark Little
>
>== Sponsor ==
>We kindly request the Incubator PMC to accept sponsorship for this proposal.
>
>== Champion ==
>Jason Van Zyl
>
>== Mentors ==
> * Jason Van Zyl
> * Jim Jagielski
> * James Strachan
>
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>
>
>
--
Dan Diephouse
(616) 971-2053
Envoi Solutions LLC
http://netzooid.com
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Jason van Zyl <ja...@maven.org>.
On 21 Jun 06, at 10:03 AM 21 Jun 06, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
>
>
> Is Hani seriously going to participate in an Apache meritocracy or is
> this some kind of joke?
You can't take any of what he says in that blog seriously. He's
equally slammed Maven, and generally what he's said has some grain of
truth, he's just not particularly sensitive but that's the point of
that particular outlet. He's free to write what he wants, and while
he's intentionally offensive, has penchant for the profane, that
should have nothing with him being allowed to start participating.
Whether the participation continues is a different matter all together.
He's an extremely good developer, writes good documentation, and is
an extremely good communicator (seen him talk many times, and been on
many concalls with him for JSR-277) so don't be to quick to pass
judgement before you see him actually interact with people here.
Jason van Zyl
jason@maven.org
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Matt Hogstrom <ma...@hogstrom.org>.
I'd sat let Hani in .... perhaps he has some better ideas of how things should be done. If not,
then he can wax eloquent about what went wrong. Either way...it will be a win and most entertaining.
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 13:52 -0400, Sakala, Adinarayana wrote:
>> == Initial Committers ==
> ...
>> * Hani Suileman
>
> Wow. Interesting. Never imagined Hani'd come our way. See for example
> his latest masterpiece from
> http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/?anchor=defecating_on_a_jdk:
>
> "In a rather perplexing move, it's announced that the Java 6 JDK will
> include Derby, the turdy little unwanted IBM poop plopped onto Apache
> (about par for the course, since large swathes of Apache seem to exit
> solely as an IBM marketing tool.)"
>
> And also from
> http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/?anchor=javaone_bea_keynote:
>
> "Someone must have given him the wrong suppository to make him say such
> horrible things, come on, of all people, surely he'd know that Apache
> does NOT have 'cool software'?"
>
> And also from (my personal favorite of course)
> http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/?anchor=axis2_why_bother:
>
> "Swing development requires people with at least a double digit IQ,
> which (with maybe two exceptions) nobody at the Java side of Apache has
> managed to evolve to."
>
> and
>
> "As much as I hate Apache, one thing one could always count on is their
> moralistic holier than thou good behaviour."
>
> ----
>
> Is Hani seriously going to participate in an Apache meritocracy or is
> this some kind of joke?
>
> Sanjiva.
>
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Believe me james! that's how i initially took it :) In fact i told my
fellow troops its an honor [1]
-- dims
[1] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=axis-dev&m=114711015426370&w=2
On 6/22/06, James Strachan <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Being 'biled' should be taken as a compliment :)
>
> On 6/21/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Well, you should be on the other side like i was [1] or the tomcat
> > folks were and face it. I higly recommend it. it's depressing and
> > demoralizing to say the least.
> >
> > -- dims
> >
> > [1] http://jroller.com/page/fate?entry=axis2_why_bother
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/21/06, Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 6/21/06, Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > First of all, I don't care about that proposal,
> > > > but I'll be strongly against having Hani as an
> > > > ASF community participant.
> > > >
> > > > Just take a look at his (Why I hate Tomcat):
> > > > http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/20060420
> > > >
> > > > That kind of person, has nothing in common
> > > > with anything ASF stands for thought.
> > > >
> > > > So, unless he is removed from the initial or
> > > > what ever committers list, you have my veto,
> > > > if that actually means something nowadays
> > > > inside the ASF.
> > >
> > > While I haven't met Hani in person, I don't think it is ok to judge
> > > him after his blog. After all it is satire (and damn funny at times).
> > > Just because he's making fun of the ASF or JCP or whatnot, it does not
> > > mean that he hates them or that he would not be a good ASF committer.
> > > Rather, you should check whether there's normal info about him like
> > > this interview:
> > > http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=38836, and
> > > other things easily found on the net.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> James
> -------
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0112098/
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@gmail.com>.
Being 'biled' should be taken as a compliment :)
On 6/21/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, you should be on the other side like i was [1] or the tomcat
> folks were and face it. I higly recommend it. it's depressing and
> demoralizing to say the least.
>
> -- dims
>
> [1] http://jroller.com/page/fate?entry=axis2_why_bother
>
>
>
> On 6/21/06, Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 6/21/06, Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > First of all, I don't care about that proposal,
> > > but I'll be strongly against having Hani as an
> > > ASF community participant.
> > >
> > > Just take a look at his (Why I hate Tomcat):
> > > http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/20060420
> > >
> > > That kind of person, has nothing in common
> > > with anything ASF stands for thought.
> > >
> > > So, unless he is removed from the initial or
> > > what ever committers list, you have my veto,
> > > if that actually means something nowadays
> > > inside the ASF.
> >
> > While I haven't met Hani in person, I don't think it is ok to judge
> > him after his blog. After all it is satire (and damn funny at times).
> > Just because he's making fun of the ASF or JCP or whatnot, it does not
> > mean that he hates them or that he would not be a good ASF committer.
> > Rather, you should check whether there's normal info about him like
> > this interview:
> > http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=38836, and
> > other things easily found on the net.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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-------
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Dan Diephouse <da...@envoisolutions.com>.
Thomas Dudziak wrote:
> (Btw, I don't know whether it's him anyway, because the name is
> spelled differently.)
It was meant to be Hani Suleiman. I spelled his name wrong on the
proposal and corrected it in the wiki immediately proceeding our submission.
- Dan
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com>.
On 6/21/06, Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org> wrote:
> Thomas Dudziak wrote:
> >
> > Anyway, I think it is important that we judge a person by what he does
> > rather than by what we think we know about him (and a satiric blog is
> > probably not a good source).
>
> You are completely wrong with that.
> There can be no healthy community without at least
> minimal mutual appreciation.
That's correct but it is besides the point. How do you know that Hani
does no appreciate Apache ? Only by his bile blog ? He also
bile-blogged about the JCP and he is actively involved in it, so its
probably safe to say that there is a difference between the person
Hani and the public person that writes the bile blog.
And given this, he should be treated just like every other person that
would like to get involved with the ASF and help in a project: he
should be welcomed.
Tom
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>.
Thomas Dudziak wrote:
>
> Anyway, I think it is important that we judge a person by what he does
> rather than by what we think we know about him (and a satiric blog is
> probably not a good source).
You are completely wrong with that.
There can be no healthy community without at least
minimal mutual appreciation.
Now, do you thing that this or any other project
should be an island of himself with ASF providing
only the brand name, or would you expect at least that
the people involved in some sub-project at least respect
the project placeholder?
Regards,
Mladen.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Matthias Wessendorf <ma...@apache.org>.
> Anyway, I think it is important that we judge a person by what he does
> rather than by what we think we know about him (and a satiric blog is
> probably not a good source). If Hani would like to work within the
> ASF, great, let him do so. And if the project then decides that he
> does not get the ASF way and behaves similar to his writings on the
> blog, then its the project call to decide whether they throw him out
> IMHO.
That's a very good point Thomas. But I think he will work well ;)
-Matthias
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com>.
On 6/21/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, you should be on the other side like i was [1] or the tomcat
> folks were and face it. I higly recommend it. it's depressing and
> demoralizing to say the least.
Sure, it wouldn't be fun if my project were the target of his bile,
and I'd be probably be demoralized just like you said. But I think I
wouldn't take it too seriously either because it is only humor,
satiric writing in my eyes (Of course, I haven't been a target so my
standpoint would have to be tested in the real world.) And its not the
'problems' of the projects that he cites that I find funny anyways,
rather its the style of the bile, so I might even have a laugh when my
project would be trashed. But that may be just me.
(Btw, I don't know whether it's him anyway, because the name is
spelled differently.)
Anyway, I think it is important that we judge a person by what he does
rather than by what we think we know about him (and a satiric blog is
probably not a good source). If Hani would like to work within the
ASF, great, let him do so. And if the project then decides that he
does not get the ASF way and behaves similar to his writings on the
blog, then its the project call to decide whether they throw him out
IMHO.
But I don't think we should ban somebody in advance from becoming
involved in the ASF only because he made fun of us in his satiric
writing, even if in a rather unfriendly and cruel way.
cheers,
Tom
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Well, you should be on the other side like i was [1] or the tomcat
folks were and face it. I higly recommend it. it's depressing and
demoralizing to say the least.
-- dims
[1] http://jroller.com/page/fate?entry=axis2_why_bother
On 6/21/06, Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/21/06, Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > First of all, I don't care about that proposal,
> > but I'll be strongly against having Hani as an
> > ASF community participant.
> >
> > Just take a look at his (Why I hate Tomcat):
> > http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/20060420
> >
> > That kind of person, has nothing in common
> > with anything ASF stands for thought.
> >
> > So, unless he is removed from the initial or
> > what ever committers list, you have my veto,
> > if that actually means something nowadays
> > inside the ASF.
>
> While I haven't met Hani in person, I don't think it is ok to judge
> him after his blog. After all it is satire (and damn funny at times).
> Just because he's making fun of the ASF or JCP or whatnot, it does not
> mean that he hates them or that he would not be a good ASF committer.
> Rather, you should check whether there's normal info about him like
> this interview:
> http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=38836, and
> other things easily found on the net.
>
> Tom
>
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>
--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>.
Thomas Dudziak wrote:
>
> While I haven't met Hani in person, I don't think it is ok to judge
> him after his blog. After all it is satire (and damn funny at times).
Call me stupid. I don't find his stuff funny.
If he has some thoughts about the ASF, then he can
very well stay where he is nowadays.
I just don't get it why would he ever wish to be a
part of the Apache community.
If you find yourself happy when someone makes
jokes about you or your colleagues, than I suppose
he can fit as an committer.
The question is, are we a bunch of islands,
or something more?
Regards,
Mladen.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Jun 24, 2006, at 10:56 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> robert burrell donkin wrote:
>> committing is just a privilage with no legal status. commit status
>> can be
>> easily revocated by
> This is interesting
>> the board,
> I can see this
>> the members,
> How can this happen?
The members can do anything in the ASF by vote. They represent the
public
interest in the foundation.
>> infrastructure
> Maybe they pull the trigger at the behest of the board or PMC but
> can they also make this decision on their own?
Yes, the infrastucture team is responsible for the machines. They can
be overridden by the board or members later on.
>> or by the
>> appropriate pmc.
> I can also see this.
....Roy
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
robert burrell donkin wrote:
> On 6/22/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Matthias,
>>
>> FYI, Once you are an Apache committer. You are one for life. Unless
>> you voluntarily peition people to revoke your id and karma.
>
>
> -1
>
> committing is just a privilage with no legal status. commit status can be
> easily revocated by
This is interesting
> the board,
I can see this
> the members,
How can this happen?
> infrastructure
Maybe they pull the trigger at the behest of the board or PMC but can
they also make this decision on their own?
> or by the
> appropriate pmc.
I can also see this.
Regards,
Alan
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On 6/22/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Matthias,
>
> FYI, Once you are an Apache committer. You are one for life. Unless
> you voluntarily peition people to revoke your id and karma.
-1
committing is just a privilage with no legal status. commit status can be
easily revocated by the board, the members, infrastructure or by the
appropriate pmc.
IMHO (though) there are strong social conventions against revoking commit
status. this is a serious action not to be undertaken lightly and so has
happened very infrequently. so, in practical terms, accepting a new
committer means a long term commitment about working with them.
- robert
Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Matthias Wessendorf <ma...@apache.org>.
ah :)
thx,
On 6/21/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Matthias,
>
> FYI, Once you are an Apache committer. You are one for life. Unless
> you voluntarily peition people to revoke your id and karma.
>
> -- dims
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Matthias,
FYI, Once you are an Apache committer. You are one for life. Unless
you voluntarily peition people to revoke your id and karma.
-- dims
On 6/21/06, Matthias Wessendorf <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> Thomas and Jason pointed already out,
> that is very active in the JCP (Java Community Process).
>
> Also, I agree with Thomas, that there always is a possibility to *remove* sb.
>
> -Matthias
>
> On 6/21/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2006-06-21 at 21:53 +0200, Thomas Dudziak wrote:
> > >
> > > While I haven't met Hani in person, I don't think it is ok to judge
> > > him after his blog. After all it is satire (and damn funny at times).
> >
> > Its not about whether his blogs are funny but rather whether he'll help
> > build communities or not. The ASF is about communities over code and he
> > seems like the person who's the opposite style: code over community.
> > That's a fundamental mismatch.
> >
> > Sanjiva.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Matthias Wessendorf
> Aechterhoek 18
> 48282 Emsdetten
> blog: http://jroller.com/page/mwessendorf
> mail: mwessendorf-at-gmail-dot-com
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Matthias Wessendorf <ma...@apache.org>.
Thomas and Jason pointed already out,
that is very active in the JCP (Java Community Process).
Also, I agree with Thomas, that there always is a possibility to *remove* sb.
-Matthias
On 6/21/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-06-21 at 21:53 +0200, Thomas Dudziak wrote:
> >
> > While I haven't met Hani in person, I don't think it is ok to judge
> > him after his blog. After all it is satire (and damn funny at times).
>
> Its not about whether his blogs are funny but rather whether he'll help
> build communities or not. The ASF is about communities over code and he
> seems like the person who's the opposite style: code over community.
> That's a fundamental mismatch.
>
> Sanjiva.
>
>
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>
--
Matthias Wessendorf
Aechterhoek 18
48282 Emsdetten
blog: http://jroller.com/page/mwessendorf
mail: mwessendorf-at-gmail-dot-com
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Wed, 2006-06-21 at 21:53 +0200, Thomas Dudziak wrote:
>
> While I haven't met Hani in person, I don't think it is ok to judge
> him after his blog. After all it is satire (and damn funny at times).
Its not about whether his blogs are funny but rather whether he'll help
build communities or not. The ASF is about communities over code and he
seems like the person who's the opposite style: code over community.
That's a fundamental mismatch.
Sanjiva.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com>.
On 6/21/06, Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org> wrote:
> First of all, I don't care about that proposal,
> but I'll be strongly against having Hani as an
> ASF community participant.
>
> Just take a look at his (Why I hate Tomcat):
> http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/20060420
>
> That kind of person, has nothing in common
> with anything ASF stands for thought.
>
> So, unless he is removed from the initial or
> what ever committers list, you have my veto,
> if that actually means something nowadays
> inside the ASF.
While I haven't met Hani in person, I don't think it is ok to judge
him after his blog. After all it is satire (and damn funny at times).
Just because he's making fun of the ASF or JCP or whatnot, it does not
mean that he hates them or that he would not be a good ASF committer.
Rather, you should check whether there's normal info about him like
this interview:
http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=38836, and
other things easily found on the net.
Tom
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Re: Vetoing/Voting in committers?
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Wed, 2006-06-21 at 15:46 -0500, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> Mladen Turk wrote:
> > William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> >>
> >> And people in general shouldn't be discussed on this list.
> >
> > Sorry about that. My bad :(.
Mine too; and as the originator of the thread in public my apologies to
Hani.
Sanjiva.
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Re: Vetoing/Voting in committers?
Posted by Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>.
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> Mladen Turk wrote:
>> Sorry about that. My bad :(.
>
> difference between a person, and a public personality - and the blog in
> question
> clearly shows that this style is deliberately his 'public personality'.
>
Agreed. Perhaps I simply do not understand all that blog stuff.
Anyhow, I doubt my wife would have any understanding if I start
blogging about her cooking expertize ;)
>
> But in general - yes problems with a person should be discussed on pmc.
>
Agreed again.
I'm a proud member of the Apache community, and would like
to feel like one in the future.
Nevertheless, any Apache committer that happens to get himself
stuck in Zagreb will be entitled for a free beer. Always :)
Cheers,
Mladen.
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Re: Vetoing/Voting in committers?
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Mladen Turk wrote:
> William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
>>
>> And people in general shouldn't be discussed on this list.
>
> Sorry about that. My bad :(.
Having read the blog myself, I can't really argue though that his 'approach'
isn't germaine to accepting a project he already commits to. There's a subtle
difference between a person, and a public personality - and the blog in question
clearly shows that this style is deliberately his 'public personality'.
So treat the previous discussion the same as you would, "do we want Rush
Limbaugh as a contributor?" Since he clearly wants to be perceived as the
harsh critic of open source, with similar vitriol for specific people as
opposed to projects, it's not unreasonable on this list to discuss if that
is welcome in a new incubation project.
But in general - yes problems with a person should be discussed on pmc.
Bill
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Re: Vetoing/Voting in committers?
Posted by Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>.
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
>
> And people in general shouldn't be discussed on this list.
Sorry about that. My bad :(.
Regards,
Mladen.
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Vetoing/Voting in committers?
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Mladen Turk wrote:
> Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure that a veto applies to whether we accept a podling or
>> not. -- justin
Justin's point is that a release can't be vetoed, a policy can't be vetoed.
Code can be vetoed.
> So, if I happen to be a board member, then eventually I would
> have such an influence. As a member I should shout up, right?
> Remind me to run for the next board elections.
A board's -1 here, e.g. if Justin voted -1, has just as much weight as your -1.
Justin asks if it's a vetoable subject like code, or a concensus vote like new
policy or releasing a tarball.
That said, the original committee should be voting in new committers just like
other projects do, and those commit bits should be granted based on merit.
You can certainly include 'plays by the rules' and 'debates code not coders'
and other basic civilized parts of participating in a project, in the 'merit'.
And people in general shouldn't be discussed on this list. If we have a person
problem, take it to the pmc. Folks names shouldn't be trashed on this list or
any other public ASF list. Praise in public, chastise in private and all that.
Last comment, we had the thought a long time ago about 'resetting' committers
at the end of incubation, forming an official PMC and then having that PMC
reassess the commit keys based on actual merit during incubation. I don't
remember if that thread ever came to a conclusion.
Bill
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> On 6/21/06, Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org> wrote:
>> That kind of person, has nothing in common
>> with anything ASF stands for thought.
>
> ASF membership is distinct from committership. If Hani evidences
> merit for a particular project as judged by his peers on the project,
> then I have zero objections to him being granted committership for
> that particular project.
>
I strongly object to that. He can very well stay
where he was before, as well as the entire that
'wannabe' sub-community.
Just imagine where would lead us the things like
reply to your random commit in a form of:
'Justin, your latest commit shows the definite
degradation in your IQ. What happened?'
Anyhow, if that new project does not comply
to the basic rules of the ASF, why it should
be a part of it?
>> So, unless he is removed from the initial or
>> what ever committers list, you have my veto,
>> if that actually means something nowadays
>> inside the ASF.
>
> I'm not sure that a veto applies to whether we accept a podling or
> not. -- justin
>
So, if I happen to be a board member, then eventually I would
have such an influence. As a member I should shout up, right?
Remind me to run for the next board elections.
Regards,
Mladen.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On 6/21/06, Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org> wrote:
> That kind of person, has nothing in common
> with anything ASF stands for thought.
ASF membership is distinct from committership. If Hani evidences
merit for a particular project as judged by his peers on the project,
then I have zero objections to him being granted committership for
that particular project.
> So, unless he is removed from the initial or
> what ever committers list, you have my veto,
> if that actually means something nowadays
> inside the ASF.
I'm not sure that a veto applies to whether we accept a podling or
not. -- justin
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>.
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 13:52 -0400, Sakala, Adinarayana wrote:
>> == Initial Committers ==
> ...
>> * Hani Suileman
>
> Wow. Interesting. Never imagined Hani'd come our way. See for example
> his latest masterpiece from
> http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/?anchor=defecating_on_a_jdk:
>
First of all, I don't care about that proposal,
but I'll be strongly against having Hani as an
ASF community participant.
Just take a look at his (Why I hate Tomcat):
http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/20060420
That kind of person, has nothing in common
with anything ASF stands for thought.
So, unless he is removed from the initial or
what ever committers list, you have my veto,
if that actually means something nowadays
inside the ASF.
Regards,
Mladen.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Hani is a good guy. He really understands technology, he's honest, he's
open and he has a utterly wicked and warped sense of humor.
I count him as a friend of mine, and I certainly have no problem with
him becoming a committer for CeltixFire.
BileBlog is satire with almost always a grain of truth. He just pushes
the point far beyond sanity, and that's what makes it such a fun read.
I see no downside, and the upside is that he started to understand what
we're really about.
Sincerely
Geir "Asshat" Magnusson
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-06-21 at 09:46 -0400, Dan Diephouse wrote:
>> Please, Hani has been a great contributor to the XFire project:
>>
>> http://fisheye.codehaus.org/changelog/~author=hani/xfire/
>>
>> Not only has he contributed code, he has written documentation and
>> helped users out on the mailing list/irc. While you may not like what
>> he says on his blog, anyone that has worked with him on a project will
>> vouch for his extensive expertise and ability to work in a team.
>
> Its not just whether I don't like what he says on his blog (I personally
> find it amusing .. and don't care to go beyond that), but its about
> whether he really believes what he says and thinks the ASF is nothing
> but a pile of poo (to paraphrase his style of writing). Why in the world
> doesn't he want to be part of that?
>
> If you want a project to succeed in the ASF you have to be willing to
> give up control, be willing to live with diversity (yes even if it has
> poor spelling), and overall be tolerant of other people's interests and
> needs. Hani doesn't appear to be able to do any of that to me.
>
> I also encourage people to watch Hani's TSS interview. Quite
> enlightening of what he thinks of lots of things.
> http://www.theserverside.com/tt/talks/videos/HaniSuleiman/interview.tss?bandwidth=real
>
> -----
>
> Anyway, he's one guy. I won't pursue this thread further; this proposal
> has much more interesting stuff to talk about independent of one Mr.
> Suleiman.
>
> Sanjiva.
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Wed, 2006-06-21 at 09:46 -0400, Dan Diephouse wrote:
> Please, Hani has been a great contributor to the XFire project:
>
> http://fisheye.codehaus.org/changelog/~author=hani/xfire/
>
> Not only has he contributed code, he has written documentation and
> helped users out on the mailing list/irc. While you may not like what
> he says on his blog, anyone that has worked with him on a project will
> vouch for his extensive expertise and ability to work in a team.
Its not just whether I don't like what he says on his blog (I personally
find it amusing .. and don't care to go beyond that), but its about
whether he really believes what he says and thinks the ASF is nothing
but a pile of poo (to paraphrase his style of writing). Why in the world
doesn't he want to be part of that?
If you want a project to succeed in the ASF you have to be willing to
give up control, be willing to live with diversity (yes even if it has
poor spelling), and overall be tolerant of other people's interests and
needs. Hani doesn't appear to be able to do any of that to me.
I also encourage people to watch Hani's TSS interview. Quite
enlightening of what he thinks of lots of things.
http://www.theserverside.com/tt/talks/videos/HaniSuleiman/interview.tss?bandwidth=real
-----
Anyway, he's one guy. I won't pursue this thread further; this proposal
has much more interesting stuff to talk about independent of one Mr.
Suleiman.
Sanjiva.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@gmail.com>.
Its also worth remembering that Hani is also a member of the JCP
Executive Committee and contributes alot to both Java & J2SE standards
as well as numerous open source projects. I know Hani pretty well and
he'll be an awesome addition to any Apache project. The bileblog is
simply an extremely funny online persona.
On 6/21/06, Dan Diephouse <da...@envoisolutions.com> wrote:
> Please, Hani has been a great contributor to the XFire project:
>
> http://fisheye.codehaus.org/changelog/~author=hani/xfire/
>
> Not only has he contributed code, he has written documentation and
> helped users out on the mailing list/irc. While you may not like what
> he says on his blog, anyone that has worked with him on a project will
> vouch for his extensive expertise and ability to work in a team.
>
> I could go on, but I don't think this discussion will benefit from it.
>
> - Dan
>
> Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 13:52 -0400, Sakala, Adinarayana wrote:
> >
> >
> >>== Initial Committers ==
> >>
> >>
> >...
> >
> >
> >> * Hani Suileman
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Wow. Interesting. Never imagined Hani'd come our way. See for example
> >his latest masterpiece from
> >http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/?anchor=defecating_on_a_jdk:
> >
> >"In a rather perplexing move, it's announced that the Java 6 JDK will
> >include Derby, the turdy little unwanted IBM poop plopped onto Apache
> >(about par for the course, since large swathes of Apache seem to exit
> >solely as an IBM marketing tool.)"
> >
> >And also from
> >http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/?anchor=javaone_bea_keynote:
> >
> >"Someone must have given him the wrong suppository to make him say such
> >horrible things, come on, of all people, surely he'd know that Apache
> >does NOT have 'cool software'?"
> >
> >And also from (my personal favorite of course)
> >http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/?anchor=axis2_why_bother:
> >
> >"Swing development requires people with at least a double digit IQ,
> >which (with maybe two exceptions) nobody at the Java side of Apache has
> >managed to evolve to."
> >
> >and
> >
> >"As much as I hate Apache, one thing one could always count on is their
> >moralistic holier than thou good behaviour."
> >
> >----
> >
> >Is Hani seriously going to participate in an Apache meritocracy or is
> >this some kind of joke?
> >
> >Sanjiva.
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Dan Diephouse
> (616) 971-2053
> Envoi Solutions LLC
> http://netzooid.com
>
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Dan Diephouse <da...@envoisolutions.com>.
Please, Hani has been a great contributor to the XFire project:
http://fisheye.codehaus.org/changelog/~author=hani/xfire/
Not only has he contributed code, he has written documentation and
helped users out on the mailing list/irc. While you may not like what
he says on his blog, anyone that has worked with him on a project will
vouch for his extensive expertise and ability to work in a team.
I could go on, but I don't think this discussion will benefit from it.
- Dan
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
>On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 13:52 -0400, Sakala, Adinarayana wrote:
>
>
>>== Initial Committers ==
>>
>>
>...
>
>
>> * Hani Suileman
>>
>>
>
>Wow. Interesting. Never imagined Hani'd come our way. See for example
>his latest masterpiece from
>http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/?anchor=defecating_on_a_jdk:
>
>"In a rather perplexing move, it's announced that the Java 6 JDK will
>include Derby, the turdy little unwanted IBM poop plopped onto Apache
>(about par for the course, since large swathes of Apache seem to exit
>solely as an IBM marketing tool.)"
>
>And also from
>http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/?anchor=javaone_bea_keynote:
>
>"Someone must have given him the wrong suppository to make him say such
>horrible things, come on, of all people, surely he'd know that Apache
>does NOT have 'cool software'?"
>
>And also from (my personal favorite of course)
>http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/?anchor=axis2_why_bother:
>
>"Swing development requires people with at least a double digit IQ,
>which (with maybe two exceptions) nobody at the Java side of Apache has
>managed to evolve to."
>
>and
>
>"As much as I hate Apache, one thing one could always count on is their
>moralistic holier than thou good behaviour."
>
>----
>
>Is Hani seriously going to participate in an Apache meritocracy or is
>this some kind of joke?
>
>Sanjiva.
>
>
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>
--
Dan Diephouse
(616) 971-2053
Envoi Solutions LLC
http://netzooid.com
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Re: [PROPOSAL] CeltiXfire Project
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 13:52 -0400, Sakala, Adinarayana wrote:
>
> == Initial Committers ==
...
> * Hani Suileman
Wow. Interesting. Never imagined Hani'd come our way. See for example
his latest masterpiece from
http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/?anchor=defecating_on_a_jdk:
"In a rather perplexing move, it's announced that the Java 6 JDK will
include Derby, the turdy little unwanted IBM poop plopped onto Apache
(about par for the course, since large swathes of Apache seem to exit
solely as an IBM marketing tool.)"
And also from
http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/?anchor=javaone_bea_keynote:
"Someone must have given him the wrong suppository to make him say such
horrible things, come on, of all people, surely he'd know that Apache
does NOT have 'cool software'?"
And also from (my personal favorite of course)
http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/?anchor=axis2_why_bother:
"Swing development requires people with at least a double digit IQ,
which (with maybe two exceptions) nobody at the Java side of Apache has
managed to evolve to."
and
"As much as I hate Apache, one thing one could always count on is their
moralistic holier than thou good behaviour."
----
Is Hani seriously going to participate in an Apache meritocracy or is
this some kind of joke?
Sanjiva.
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