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Posted to users@openoffice.apache.org by Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com> on 2013/01/20 16:42:46 UTC
reveal codes
What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect?
This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone as it is. The feature really helps control formatting.
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RE: reveal codes
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
This conversation has been going on since at least 2002. This bug report (enhancement request) has extensive commentary:
<https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395>. (After getting a taste for the initial discussion, it might be useful to read the extensive comments from newest, at the end, back toward the older ones.)
In the past there have been plug-ins to reveal styling in a way that accomplishes some of what Word Perfect Reveal Codes does. There does not seem to have been any active work on that in recent times.
In direct response to the question, I would say that the chance is slim. Many of us can talk about what would work and how complex the problem is, but no one with mastery of the format and the OpenOffice-lineage implementation has raised their hand to actually do something. (I hesitate to think about the internationalization and accessibility problems that add to this.)
Also, however it works, it will be style-centric because that's the ODF and OpenOffice model.
I completely agree that ability to reveal the styling that applies at any given place in the text would be very handy in trouble-shooting a document. There's no assurance that anything like that will be done in the predictable future.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:ofarrwrk@iol.ie]
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 08:06
To: users@openoffice.apache.org
Cc: Eric Fenster
Subject: Re: reveal codes
On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST)
Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect?
>
> This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone as it is. The feature really helps control formatting.
>
Consistent use of styles should obviate the need for this. Also useful is /View /Nonprinting characters, to reveal spaces, tabs and line or paragraph breaks.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Doug <dm...@optonline.net>.
On 01/20/2013 02:15 PM, Eric Fenster wrote:
>> It's up to X5 now, and relatively affordable,
> I looked for it a couple hours ago. It was up to X6, impossible to buy without the entire suite and the cost was $230. There were times when the price was very low.
>
> I have WP 9, and it's pretty unstable.
>
>
>
I just looked in Google. Walmart has the home and school edition or WP
Office X6 for $96, and the Standard edition for $136.
www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=WordPerfect&ResuldtDisplayType=1&adid=22222222220130832152&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=b&wl1=g&wl2=&wl3=18458881347&wl4=
--doug
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com>.
> It's up to X5 now, and relatively affordable,
I looked for it a couple hours ago. It was up to X6, impossible to buy without the entire suite and the cost was $230. There were times when the price was very low.
I have WP 9, and it's pretty unstable.
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Doug <dm...@optonline.net>.
On 01/20/2013 11:10 AM, Helen wrote:
> I'm with Eric on this one. I've pined for that Word Perfect feature for
> many years. I doubt
> we'll ever get it, but I wish I still had a copy of Word Perfect. The
> styles feature doesn't
> replace WP's ability to find and delete a single troubling code.
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST)
>> Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect?
>>>
>>> This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone as
>> it is. The feature really helps control formatting.
>>
/snip/
WordPerfect is still around. It's up to X5 now, and relatively affordable,
I believe--I've been upgrading mine thru the years, and I still use it when
I want to do any serious writing. Nothing beats it, especially MS Word.
I never saw it crash, in all the years I've used it. Unfortunately,
there is
no Linux version. (I know there once was, but it won't install on a modern
system.)
--doug
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com>.
Gosh, I wish we could display a screen shot here of what we're talking about!
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Jeffrey Deutsch <jd...@gmail.com>.
Hello Dan,
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Dan Lewis <el...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you miss the way WP works as a text editor, why don't you use WP?
Because for maybe a decade and a half now, Microsoft Word has been the
gold standard in word processing applications. That's why WP can be
saved into a Word-compatible version and not vice versa. Not to
mention OpenOffice/LibreOffice can be saved into a Word-compatible
version, never WordPerfect compatible.
WordPerfect's heyday died before the 20th century did. Even in
government agencies and law offices - WP's traditional bailiwick -
they also use MS Word so they can work with outsiders.
Bottom line: If we want specific WP features, like Reveal Codes (a
real attraction to me too), we're going to need to duplicate them
within our MS-Word compatible applications. Going back to WP would be
madness for most of us.
Cheers,
Jeff Deutsch
Speaker & Life Coach
A SPLINT - ASPies LInking with NTs
http://www.asplint.com
Your mood can affect how you read this e-mail. Please read it with a smile.
(http://tonecheck.com)
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com>.
> document with 100 formatting errors. A correct version of the document must be available
It's not so much about "errors" as the ease of making changes when revising one's text.
People who write exactly what their final version should be the first time may have to deal with "errors." The rest of us have to edit and revise to achieve the final result.
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Dan Lewis <el...@gmail.com>.
On 01/21/2013 11:29 AM, Eric Fenster wrote:
>> Try /View /Non printing characters. This allows one to exactly position the cursor.
>
> That's totally different. It shows paragraph breaks and spaces, not formatting codes.
>
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What difference does it make? LO does not have formatting codes.
Why insist that it should? If you miss the way WP works as a text
editor, why don't you use WP? How much work would it take to develop
them? Is this really worth the expense, time, etc. to do it? What are
you willing to do to help? Why not learn how to use LO better? There
seems to be several people who would like formatting codes. Why don't
this group get together and build an extension that will do what you
want it to do? Show us that it can be done.
Yes, I am disappointed with this continued discussion of why
format codes are better than styles. Of course it is very likely that
some information about what has to be done when using formatting codes
is not included. And yes, some information is also left out when
mentioning what has to be done when using styles.
A real test is to take a 1000 word text document with 100
formatting errors. A correct version of the document must be available
so that the people making the corrections know what the final formatting
should be. List how to correct the errors using formatting codes. Then
list how to correct the errors using styles. Then compare how many steps
each one of these took. How much time did it take to do each one?
It is easy to make statements about either one, and this has been
done recently as well as when there was an extended discussion about
this same issue. Very little if anything has been said that was not said
one time and usually many times then.
--Dan
Re: reveal codes
Posted by Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com>.
> Try /View /Non printing characters. This allows one to exactly position the cursor.
That's totally different. It shows paragraph breaks and spaces, not formatting codes.
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Mon, 21 Jan 2013 06:13:50 -0800 (PST)
Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > using it to position the cursor either inside or outside a particular formatting code.
>
> YES, positioning the cursor was very helpful.
>
> Also, finding where certain functions were turned on/off.
Try /View /Non printing characters. This allows one to exactly position the cursor.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com>.
> using it to position the cursor either inside or outside a particular formatting code.
YES, positioning the cursor was very helpful.
Also, finding where certain functions were turned on/off.
An example. I open a new Open Office doc and paste the contents of a mail message.
The cursor at the beginning of the doc says I'm in Times New Roman (default), but my text is in Arial.
I change font window to Times New Roman, but nothing happens. Subsequent text still Arial.
If this were WP, I would see the Arial code following my Times New Roman code and would just click on it to delete. The text would change to what I want. To do this in Open Office, I have to select all the text I want to change, then change the font window.
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Robert Funnell <ro...@mcgill.ca>.
On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:
>
> On 01/21/2013 03:41 AM, Brian Barker wrote:
>> At 20:50 20/01/2013 -0500, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:
>>> On 01/20/2013 11:53 AM, Brian Barker wrote:
>>>> The only reason you can have a single troubling code is that the program
>>>> is faulty. Wouldn't it be more sensible to correct the program so that
>>>> this couldn't occur? The reason why Word Perfect could have single
>>>> troubling codes is precisely because users were allowed to tinker with
>>>> them and introduce mistakes.
>>>
>>> Not sure I agree.
>>
>> Perhaps I didn't make clear that I was responding to the previous
>> contributor's mention of "a single troubling code" and taking it literally:
>> one code that shouldn't be there, not a matching pair of codes. It was for
>> these rogue single codes that Word Perfect's "reveal codes" was
>> particularly useful.
> Point taken :-)
I don't remember if I ever used Reveal Codes for this kind of
corruption in WordPerfect, but I do remember often using it to
position the cursor either inside or outside a particular formatting
code. This is the use for which I would like to see something
comparable (Reveal Styles) in OO.
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <an...@pitonyak.org>.
On 01/21/2013 03:41 AM, Brian Barker wrote:
> At 20:50 20/01/2013 -0500, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:
>> On 01/20/2013 11:53 AM, Brian Barker wrote:
>>> The only reason you can have a single troubling code is that the
>>> program is faulty. Wouldn't it be more sensible to correct the
>>> program so that this couldn't occur? The reason why Word Perfect
>>> could have single troubling codes is precisely because users were
>>> allowed to tinker with them and introduce mistakes.
>>
>> Not sure I agree.
>
> Perhaps I didn't make clear that I was responding to the previous
> contributor's mention of "a single troubling code" and taking it
> literally: one code that shouldn't be there, not a matching pair of
> codes. It was for these rogue single codes that Word Perfect's
> "reveal codes" was particularly useful.
Point taken :-)
--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>.
At 20:50 20/01/2013 -0500, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:
>On 01/20/2013 11:53 AM, Brian Barker wrote:
>>The only reason you can have a single troubling code is that the
>>program is faulty. Wouldn't it be more sensible to correct the
>>program so that this couldn't occur? The reason why Word Perfect
>>could have single troubling codes is precisely because users were
>>allowed to tinker with them and introduce mistakes.
>
>Not sure I agree.
Perhaps I didn't make clear that I was responding to the previous
contributor's mention of "a single troubling code" and taking it
literally: one code that shouldn't be there, not a matching pair of
codes. It was for these rogue single codes that Word Perfect's
"reveal codes" was particularly useful.
Brian Barker
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <an...@pitonyak.org>.
On 01/20/2013 11:53 AM, Brian Barker wrote:
>
> The only reason you can have a single troubling code is that the
> program is faulty. Wouldn't it be more sensible to correct the
> program so that this couldn't occur? The reason why Word Perfect
> could have single troubling codes is precisely because users were
> allowed to tinker with them and introduce mistakes.
Not sure I agree. If a font is set in AOO, it might be from a paragraph
style, character style, direct formatting, or I guess maybe even font
mapping.
Now, if it is set by a style, which style? For example, if you see that
the character style is "_computer_literal", is that the style that set
the font? Perhaps not. It might be the parent style to _computer_literal.
If things are difficult to understand in the document, I am more likely
to blame the user.... well, unless you are reading one of my documents;
then for sure the problem is the reader not the writer :-)
--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>.
At 10:51 20/01/2013 -0800, Eric Fenster wrote:
>>But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level
>>[delete]; instead, they must be required, having discovered what
>>the problem is, to solve it where it was caused. Anything else
>>breaks the structure.
>
>I really don't understand this rather authoritarian recommendation.
It wasn't authoritarian at all: I'm sorry if you thought it was. I
wasn't telling anyone that they shouldn't add or remove formatting:
of course not. I was merely pointing out that asking for a clearer
display of document structure was one thing (and a good one), but
that allowing changes by means of editing such a display (exactly as
Word Perfect allows) would be impossible without upsetting the way
OpenOffice works.
>If I write something in bold and want to convert one or some words
>to normal type when I review my text, that's my business. Why should
>I not be "allowed" to change a word? And if I can do that by simply
>putting my cursor on a Bold code and deleting it, what great law am
>I violating?
Well, first - that there are no such codes.
>There's no structure being broken, just editing between bold and normal.
You are limiting your discussion to local formatting. If OpenOffice
did that, there would be less disagreement.
Brian Barker
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RE: reveal codes
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
There is no invalid XML involved in the situations being discussed. The XML of the saved document is correct. Also, OpenOffice does not work on the XML directly -- it uses an internal model of the document and imports to that and exports from that when accessing files.]
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:ofarrwrk@iol.ie]
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 09:06
To: users@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: reveal codes
A short response to many of the points raised in this thread, to quote which points would be tedious and not very relevant to this posting.
Would it be possible to reach a broad equivalent of "reveal codes" by incorporating an XML analysis screen.facility, which would look at the underlying XML code and highlight what it felt were departures from correct syntax?
Such an analysis would be useful for irregular formatting in Write, much as the "reveal codes" advocates require, but perhaps more importantly for the many cases of broken .ODF files, usually Calc, where an error message indicates an (undefined) error at row,column. Several such cases occur every month, which can often be cured by deleteing a bad formatting sequence at XML level.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
A short response to many of the points raised in this thread, to quote which points would be tedious and not very relevant to this posting.
Would it be possible to reach a broad equivalent of "reveal codes" by incorporating an XML analysis screen.facility, which would look at the underlying XML code and highlight what it felt were departures from correct syntax?
Such an analysis would be useful for irregular formatting in Write, much as the "reveal codes" advocates require, but perhaps more importantly for the many cases of broken .ODF files, usually Calc, where an error message indicates an (undefined) error at row,column. Several such cases occur every month, which can often be cured by deleteing a bad formatting sequence at XML level.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
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RE: reveal codes
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
@Brian,
Yes I think we are like-minded on this. To the extent that there is provision for alteration, it has to be provided in a safe manner and not by manipulating the document representation directly.
I don't see a particular problem with a Reveal/Review Styling allowing certain safe alterations, although it increases the complexity of an implementation. Of course, a Reveal/Review implementation has to be available first before one can use it to remedy unintended or blocked situations. (This is not the same as hacking the XML, which is not in memory anyhow in the case of OpenOffice, where one could break the structure, although there are XML editors that require a schema to be honored.)
I'm satisfied that there is a case for a feature that provides a safe equivalent of what Reveal Codes provides in WordPerfect. I don't know how to get past that point, nor do I know anyone who is able to do so and is also willing to do so.
- Dennis
ANOTHER CASE THAT WORKS
One of my favorites that does reveal structure and format coding is Microsoft FrontPage 2003 (the last version now that it is abandon-ware). I can put the cursor anywhere and a little ribbon strip at the top of the WYSIWYG text window will show the linear nesting of structure that covers that position. I can also click on one of those and the text covered by that structure will be high-lighted. I can also ask to edit a particular structure's attributes (e.g., a font setting) or even remove a given structure from the hierarchy (such as the span of a font setting, but not its content). These are all benign operations -- the result is always valid. (I could also switch to the raw HTML and damage the document any way I wanted, although FrontPage will repair it in some inscrutable fashion if I mess up.) Where styling comes into this would have to do with CSS, including in-line CSS properties. I've not explored that particular case, although I know CSS styles can be viewed/reviewed.
OpenOffice and ODF are more complex in this respect, and I have no idea how to provide a counterpart in OpenOffice. I can imagine having an equivalent feature in an ODF-based editor, but it would probably be one that is designed for that from the beginning. (I can imagine considerable value to such a provision during development and troubleshooting of an implementation, and it should be part of the product.)
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Barker [mailto:b.m.barker@btinternet.com]
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 00:34
To: users@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: RE: reveal codes
At 16:42 20/01/2013 -0800, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>I agree that an equivalent means of inspecting what formatting
>features apply at a point in the text, and where they come from,
>would be extremely valuable in trouble-shooting these style-based
>documents. Being able to see the span of the application of a
>format feature (or of an applied style) would also be very
>useful. This is particularly important, it seems to me, because the
>created structures and the styles they introduce are not
>invertible. It is difficult to see where they are and to reverse
>their effects by making more formatting operations and it is
>conceivable that there are bugs in all of that as well.
>
>To that extent, I tend to disagree with Brian Barker. It should be
>possible to manipulate the styles in rational ways, similar to what
>is available with the "Styles and Formatting" pop-out. This would
>not be by getting under the hood and pulling wires, but having a
>tool that accomplishes an available manipulation in a valid way.
For what it's worth, I don't see where we are disagreeing. Don't we
both agree that (1) a clearer way of seeing exactly why a document is
behaving in a particular way is desirable, but that (2) users
modifications should continue to be carried out through a proper
interface, not by trying to tinker with non-existent "tags"?
Brian Barker
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RE: reveal codes
Posted by Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>.
At 16:42 20/01/2013 -0800, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>I agree that an equivalent means of inspecting what formatting
>features apply at a point in the text, and where they come from,
>would be extremely valuable in trouble-shooting these style-based
>documents. Being able to see the span of the application of a
>format feature (or of an applied style) would also be very
>useful. This is particularly important, it seems to me, because the
>created structures and the styles they introduce are not
>invertible. It is difficult to see where they are and to reverse
>their effects by making more formatting operations and it is
>conceivable that there are bugs in all of that as well.
>
>To that extent, I tend to disagree with Brian Barker. It should be
>possible to manipulate the styles in rational ways, similar to what
>is available with the "Styles and Formatting" pop-out. This would
>not be by getting under the hood and pulling wires, but having a
>tool that accomplishes an available manipulation in a valid way.
For what it's worth, I don't see where we are disagreeing. Don't we
both agree that (1) a clearer way of seeing exactly why a document is
behaving in a particular way is desirable, but that (2) users
modifications should continue to be carried out through a proper
interface, not by trying to tinker with non-existent "tags"?
Brian Barker
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RE: reveal codes
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Eric, and all,
(This list does not preserve document attachments. Feel free to add yours to the others already at the enhancement request on Bugzilla: <https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395>.)
The reality is that unless someone with the skills to take on creation of some sort of Reveal Styling or whatever it would be steps up and learns enough about the OpenOffice code to do it, debating the desirability of it is not going anywhere. It takes willing volunteer(s) with sufficient mastery of the software. Perhaps if someone (or a group) offered a significant bounty, that might work although I think that's usually a bad idea.
- Dennis
WHY STYLES CONTINUE TO BE BROUGHT UP IN THIS CONTEXT
the reason for bringing up styles is that there are only styles and nothing but styles (and structures) in OpenOffice and in the ODF format. OpenOffice doesn't control formatting by setting codes in the text stream. The codes that are thought of, in the case of WordPerfect, are simply not there in ODF and the way OpenOffice operates.
There are no in-line formatting codes comparable to ones used in WordPerfect and some other formats. The only thing in-line is the name of a style as an attribute of a structural element (whether a span, a paragraph, or one of the many things that includes/includes-in a paragraph). Although there are in-line actions in the UI, such as Format Character, bold, underline, etc., these all are implemented by creation of structural elements and styles referenced from them. From then on, it is essentially all styles. (There is no shift-in/shift-out of formatting in the runs of text.) There are some special codes (e.g., to force multiple spaces, to tab, force a hard line break, and some other markers) that are unrelated to formatting over one-or-more characters in the text.
Because style mentions can be nested along with the structure, and there are also search hierarchies among the styles for where a particular formatting feature is obtained, the ODF/OpenOffice document model makes it difficult to portray what was simple for WordPerfect.
I agree that an equivalent means of inspecting what formatting features apply at a point in the text, and where they come from, would be extremely valuable in trouble-shooting these style-based documents. Being able to see the span of the application of a format feature (or of an applied style) would also be very useful. This is particularly important, it seems to me, because the created structures and the styles they introduce are not invertible. It is difficult to see where they are and to reverse their effects by making more formatting operations and it is conceivable that there are bugs in all of that as well.
To that extent, I tend to disagree with Brian Barker. It should be possible to manipulate the styles in rational ways, similar to what is available with the "Styles and Formatting" pop-out. This would not be by getting under the hood and pulling wires, but having a tool that accomplishes an available manipulation in a valid way.
The reality is that unless someone with the skills to take on creation of some sort of Reveal Styling or whatever it would be steps up and learns enough about the OpenOffice code to do it, debating the desirability of it is not going anywhere. It takes willing volunteer(s) with sufficient mastery of the software.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Fenster [mailto:ericfen@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:52
To: users@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: reveal codes
I wish people who have made some of the comments actually had experience with the Reveal Codes function in WP.
First, for those not familiar with it, the Reveal Codes can be turned on and off and the amount of space (number of lines of text) it consumes on the screen is under complete control.
You have unencumbered text in one window, and text with the codes in another -- IF you want it.
This is very different from turning on codes like paragraph markers, which are all or nothing and litter the entire text.
Second, all this talk about styles is totally irrelevant. Styles exist quite happily alongside the reveal codes option.
> But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level [delete]; instead, they must be required, having discovered what the problem is, to solve it where it was caused. Anything else breaks the structure.
I really don't understand this rather authoritarian recommendation.
If I write something in bold and want to convert one or some words to normal type when I review my text, that's my business. Why should I not be "allowed" to change a word? And if I can do that by simply putting my cursor on a Bold code and deleting it, what great law am I violating?
There's no structure being broken, just editing between bold and normal.
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>.
At 12:32 20/01/2013 -0800, Eric Fenster wrote:
>Is this discussion happening among people on different planets?
Yes, almost certainly! Fans of local formatting will see no problem
in tinkering with the document at a low level, whereas fans of styles
(and even those who are not but appreciate that this is how
OpenOffice works) will see the impossibility of providing this facility.
Brian Barker
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com>.
> while low-level tags are a 'dirty' path--
which is a nightmare for a person sticking to styles and structure.
Is this discussion happening among people on different planets?
Nothing about deleting a BOLD tag while editing is sabotaging styles or is even relevant to styles.
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by johnny smith <ka...@krovatka.su>.
On Sunday, 20 January 2013 19:46:18, Doug <dm...@optonline.net> wrote:
> Why must you insist on making the writer go thru hoops to fix something
> when Reveal Codes can do it for him quickly and easily? Just let us have
> the capability--if *you* want to go thru those
> hoops, then go ahead--I don't want to have to!
formatting through styles is a 'clean' way, while low-level tags are a 'dirty' path--
which is a nightmare for a person sticking to styles and structure. these're
simply two incompatible ways of seeing things, and the philosophy of oo is likely
to be the 'styles' one. however, you're always welcome to open any oo
document as a zip archive and view--or even edit--the low-level picture with all
tags included within content.xml. there were cases when i was about to do that,
desperate to fix some particular problem by usual gui means, but in the end i
always managed to find a more conventional way of fixing things.
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>.
At 14:45 20/01/2013 -0500, Doug McGarrett wrote:
>Why must you insist on making the writer go thru hoops to fix
>something when Reveal Codes can do it for him quickly and easily?
>Just let us have the capability--if *you* want to go thru those
>hoops, then go ahead--I don't want to have to!
That's not what I suggest at all. I agree that a clearer display of
formatting would be desirable. Call that "reveal codes" if you like,
but remember that the codes don't actually exist. But if OpenOffice
let you make changes by deleting an invented code or two, other users
of the higher-level interfaces currently supplied could no longer
rely on their integrity. It's not so much that I'm insisting on your
doing things my way as asking that you should not be allowed to
achieve a change that breaks everyone else's way.
And it really isn't going through hoops to modify any document the
proper way: like most things, the proper way is, in the long term,
the easy way. The difficulty, if any, is being able to see what the
problem is.
Brian Barker
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Doug <dm...@optonline.net>.
On 01/20/2013 12:45 PM, Brian Barker wrote:
> At 12:38 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen wrote:
>> I should have clarified what I meant by a troubling code. I meant
>> something that I (or any user) might put in, and then later decide
>> this is not exactly the way you want it, and so wish to make an
>> adjustment. Your document looks wrong but you don't know how to find
>> the formatting element that you inserted and now wish to delete. In
>> WP, that is easy. Press Reveal Codes, find the code you don't want,
>> and delete it.
>
> I'm with you all the way - except for the last three words!
>
> If your document "looks wrong but you don't know how to find the
> formatting element that you inserted", you certainly need a simple way
> to discover this. (I don't know whether any problems I have in this
> area are Writer's or mine!) But users must not be allowed to make
> changes at that level; instead, they must be required, having
> discovered what the problem is, to solve it where it was caused.
> Anything else breaks the structure.
>
> Brian Barker
>
>
/snip/
Why must you insist on making the writer go thru hoops to fix something
when Reveal Codes can do it for him quickly and easily? Just let us have
the capability--if *you* want to go thru those
hoops, then go ahead--I don't want to have to!
--doug
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>.
At 10:57 20/01/2013 -0800, Eric Fenster wrote:
>For ex, a hard page break that becomes out of place because text has
>been added during editing. Click on the page break code, it's done.
>The doc reformats.
Click immediately after the page break and press Backspace: even
easier! And all without opening "reveal codes" and looking for the
(non-existent) tag. (This assumes that the page break was introduced
as local formatting, of course. Usually, if there is any problem, it
won't have been.)
Brian Barker
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Alan Boba <ab...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 1:45 PM, James Plante <ji...@me.com> wrote:
> If the document looks wrong, and you can't find out why, then just select
> "default formatting" to clear all formatting. Then reapply the correct
> format. Two mouse-clicks, no waiting.
>
> I did try that, it failed to resolve the problem also.
> Jim Plante
>
> On Jan 20, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>
> wrote:
>
> > At 12:38 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen wrote:
> >> I should have clarified what I meant by a troubling code. I meant
> something that I (or any user) might put in, and then later decide this is
> not exactly the way you want it, and so wish to make an adjustment. Your
> document looks wrong but you don't know how to find the formatting element
> that you inserted and now wish to delete. In WP, that is easy. Press
> Reveal Codes, find the code you don't want, and delete it.
> >
> > I'm with you all the way - except for the last three words!
> >
> > If your document "looks wrong but you don't know how to find the
> formatting element that you inserted", you certainly need a simple way to
> discover this. (I don't know whether any problems I have in this area are
> Writer's or mine!) But users must not be allowed to make changes at that
> level; instead, they must be required, having discovered what the problem
> is, to solve it where it was caused. Anything else breaks the structure.
> >
> > Brian Barker
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
--
Alan Boba
CISSP, CCENT, ITIL v3 Foundations 2011
Re: reveal codes
Posted by Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <an...@pitonyak.org>.
On 01/20/2013 01:57 PM, Eric Fenster wrote:
>> just select "default formatting" to clear all formatting.
> Why destroy everything and start over if all that's necessary is to put the cursor on a code and DEL????
I assume that this only works for hard formatting, and not for style
related formatting.
> For ex, a hard page break that becomes out of place because text has been added during editing. Click on the page break code, it's done. The doc reformats.
Yeah, you are correct with that one... Many of these, however, you can
already reveal and show in the document. (it is in the formatting aids
section).
Never thought about it that way. I suppose that there is already partial
support for this and that would likely be the hook to use.
--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Martin Groenescheij <Ma...@Groenescheij.COM>.
On 21/01/2013 6:09 AM, James Plante wrote:
> Or just stick your cursor in front of the paragraph following the offending page break and press delete.
>
> But there wouldn't BE a hard page break present if page styles had been used correctly to begin with. Writer's use of styles assures consistency throughout the whole document. But learning to "use styles correctly" is no easy job. I've had quite a few wrestling matches with it over that kind of thing myself. But overall, it's worth the fight to make it work.
I agree that learning to "use styles correctly" it the way to go, but
the real issue is that you receive documents from other sources / users
who don't understand styles or use other editors. Hence learning to "use
styles correctly" isn't always the solution.
>
> Anything's easy once you learn how. ('Till then, though, you can invent some new profanity. :-)
>
> Jim Plante
>
> On Jan 20, 2013, at 12:57 PM, Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>> just select "default formatting" to clear all formatting.
>> Why destroy everything and start over if all that's necessary is to put the cursor on a code and DEL????
>>
>> For ex, a hard page break that becomes out of place because text has been added during editing. Click on the page break code, it's done. The doc reformats.
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by James Plante <ji...@me.com>.
Or just stick your cursor in front of the paragraph following the offending page break and press delete.
But there wouldn't BE a hard page break present if page styles had been used correctly to begin with. Writer's use of styles assures consistency throughout the whole document. But learning to "use styles correctly" is no easy job. I've had quite a few wrestling matches with it over that kind of thing myself. But overall, it's worth the fight to make it work.
Anything's easy once you learn how. ('Till then, though, you can invent some new profanity. :-)
Jim Plante
On Jan 20, 2013, at 12:57 PM, Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> just select "default formatting" to clear all formatting.
>
> Why destroy everything and start over if all that's necessary is to put the cursor on a code and DEL????
>
> For ex, a hard page break that becomes out of place because text has been added during editing. Click on the page break code, it's done. The doc reformats.
>
>
>
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com>.
> just select "default formatting" to clear all formatting.
Why destroy everything and start over if all that's necessary is to put the cursor on a code and DEL????
For ex, a hard page break that becomes out of place because text has been added during editing. Click on the page break code, it's done. The doc reformats.
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by James Plante <ji...@me.com>.
If the document looks wrong, and you can't find out why, then just select "default formatting" to clear all formatting. Then reapply the correct format. Two mouse-clicks, no waiting.
Jim Plante
On Jan 20, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com> wrote:
> At 12:38 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen wrote:
>> I should have clarified what I meant by a troubling code. I meant something that I (or any user) might put in, and then later decide this is not exactly the way you want it, and so wish to make an adjustment. Your document looks wrong but you don't know how to find the formatting element that you inserted and now wish to delete. In WP, that is easy. Press Reveal Codes, find the code you don't want, and delete it.
>
> I'm with you all the way - except for the last three words!
>
> If your document "looks wrong but you don't know how to find the formatting element that you inserted", you certainly need a simple way to discover this. (I don't know whether any problems I have in this area are Writer's or mine!) But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level; instead, they must be required, having discovered what the problem is, to solve it where it was caused. Anything else breaks the structure.
>
> Brian Barker
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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RE: reveal codes
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
I'm assuming that the text in the original message, below, is from Martin.
There is a structure being created, even though all you see is your selection, your clicking of the bold button (or use of Format | Character to do the same), and the selected text of one or more characters being rendered in boldface. If it is all in the same paragraph and just text, a structural element is being created. (Otherwise, multiple adjacent structures might be created and they are independent thereafter.) There will be an automatically-defined style that causes the bolding.
If you select the text again and remove the boldface, there may or may not be some residual structure and a different style in its place.
This is mostly invisible except when it isn't. Then it becomes difficult to overcome some weird effect that you can't overcome because of this invisible structuring and styling and some sort of conflict that results. You can't even get your hands on what it is. Some sort of Reveal Styling would allow you to remedy that.
For good or ill, this is the only way what you did can be represented in the native ODF Format of OpenOffice-lineage software, including Apache OpenOffice.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Groenescheij [mailto:Martin@Groenescheij.COM]
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 20:28
To: users@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: reveal codes
[ ... ]
> I really don't understand this rather authoritarian recommendation.
>
> If I write something in bold and want to convert one or some words to normal type when I review my text, that's my business. Why should I not be "allowed" to change a word? And if I can do that by simply putting my cursor on a Bold code and deleting it, what great law am I violating?
That's exactly how you do it in OpenOffice, select the word and click on
the "Bold" icon. I don't need a reveal code for that simple task.
>
> There's no structure being broken, just editing between bold and normal.
>
[ ... ]
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com>.
> That's exactly how you do it in OpenOffice, select the word and click on
the "Bold" icon.
It's not that simple. In Open Office you have to be careful about selecting spaces AFTER a word.
If you select a word to make bold and happen to include the space after the word, then come back when editing your text and remove the bold or remove the word but fail to take account of what you originally did to the space following the word, the bold code is still there, invisible. You start typing your replacement word or additional text and it is bold, unintentionally.
With reveal codes, you see and can remove what has become a stray, unwanted bold code.
Again, reveal codes is voluntary, in a separate window, it doesn't clutter your basic text but gives much fuller and easier control over it.
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Martin Groenescheij <Ma...@Groenescheij.COM>.
On 21/01/2013 5:51 AM, Eric Fenster wrote:
> I wish people who have made some of the comments actually had experience with the Reveal Codes function in WP.
>
> First, for those not familiar with it, the Reveal Codes can be turned on and off and the amount of space (number of lines of text) it consumes on the screen is under complete control.
>
> You have unencumbered text in one window, and text with the codes in another -- IF you want it.
>
> This is very different from turning on codes like paragraph markers, which are all or nothing and litter the entire text.
>
> Second, all this talk about styles is totally irrelevant. Styles exist quite happily alongside the reveal codes option.
>
>> But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level [delete]; instead, they must be required, having discovered what the problem is, to solve it where it was caused. Anything else breaks the structure.
> I really don't understand this rather authoritarian recommendation.
>
> If I write something in bold and want to convert one or some words to normal type when I review my text, that's my business. Why should I not be "allowed" to change a word? And if I can do that by simply putting my cursor on a Bold code and deleting it, what great law am I violating?
That's exactly how you do it in OpenOffice, select the word and click on
the "Bold" icon. I don't need a reveal code for that simple task.
>
> There's no structure being broken, just editing between bold and normal.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by di...@yahoo.com.
Well stated Doug.
Thanks
Thank you,
Frank Dillingham
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug <dm...@optonline.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 14:49:49
To: <us...@openoffice.apache.org>
Reply-To: users@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: reveal codes
On 01/20/2013 01:51 PM, Eric Fenster wrote:
> I wish people who have made some of the comments actually had experience with the Reveal Codes function in WP.
>
> First, for those not familiar with it, the Reveal Codes can be turned on and off and the amount of space (number of lines of text) it consumes on the screen is under complete control.
>
> You have unencumbered text in one window, and text with the codes in another -- IF you want it.
>
> This is very different from turning on codes like paragraph markers, which are all or nothing and litter the entire text.
>
> Second, all this talk about styles is totally irrelevant. Styles exist quite happily alongside the reveal codes option.
>
>> But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level [delete]; instead, they must be required, having discovered what the problem is, to solve it where it was caused. Anything else breaks the structure.
> I really don't understand this rather authoritarian recommendation.
>
> If I write something in bold and want to convert one or some words to normal type when I review my text, that's my business. Why should I not be "allowed" to change a word? And if I can do that by simply putting my cursor on a Bold code and deleting it, what great law am I violating?
>
> There's no structure being broken, just editing between bold and normal.
>
>
>
+1
--doug
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Doug <dm...@optonline.net>.
On 01/20/2013 01:51 PM, Eric Fenster wrote:
> I wish people who have made some of the comments actually had experience with the Reveal Codes function in WP.
>
> First, for those not familiar with it, the Reveal Codes can be turned on and off and the amount of space (number of lines of text) it consumes on the screen is under complete control.
>
> You have unencumbered text in one window, and text with the codes in another -- IF you want it.
>
> This is very different from turning on codes like paragraph markers, which are all or nothing and litter the entire text.
>
> Second, all this talk about styles is totally irrelevant. Styles exist quite happily alongside the reveal codes option.
>
>> But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level [delete]; instead, they must be required, having discovered what the problem is, to solve it where it was caused. Anything else breaks the structure.
> I really don't understand this rather authoritarian recommendation.
>
> If I write something in bold and want to convert one or some words to normal type when I review my text, that's my business. Why should I not be "allowed" to change a word? And if I can do that by simply putting my cursor on a Bold code and deleting it, what great law am I violating?
>
> There's no structure being broken, just editing between bold and normal.
>
>
>
+1
--doug
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com>.
I wish people who have made some of the comments actually had experience with the Reveal Codes function in WP.
First, for those not familiar with it, the Reveal Codes can be turned on and off and the amount of space (number of lines of text) it consumes on the screen is under complete control.
You have unencumbered text in one window, and text with the codes in another -- IF you want it.
This is very different from turning on codes like paragraph markers, which are all or nothing and litter the entire text.
Second, all this talk about styles is totally irrelevant. Styles exist quite happily alongside the reveal codes option.
> But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level [delete]; instead, they must be required, having discovered what the problem is, to solve it where it was caused. Anything else breaks the structure.
I really don't understand this rather authoritarian recommendation.
If I write something in bold and want to convert one or some words to normal type when I review my text, that's my business. Why should I not be "allowed" to change a word? And if I can do that by simply putting my cursor on a Bold code and deleting it, what great law am I violating?
There's no structure being broken, just editing between bold and normal.
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>.
At 12:38 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen wrote:
>I should have clarified what I meant by a troubling code. I meant
>something that I (or any user) might put in, and then later decide
>this is not exactly the way you want it, and so wish to make an
>adjustment. Your document looks wrong but you don't know how to
>find the formatting element that you inserted and now wish to
>delete. In WP, that is easy. Press Reveal Codes, find the code you
>don't want, and delete it.
I'm with you all the way - except for the last three words!
If your document "looks wrong but you don't know how to find the
formatting element that you inserted", you certainly need a simple
way to discover this. (I don't know whether any problems I have in
this area are Writer's or mine!) But users must not be allowed to
make changes at that level; instead, they must be required, having
discovered what the problem is, to solve it where it was
caused. Anything else breaks the structure.
Brian Barker
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Helen <et...@gmail.com>.
I should have clarified what I meant by a troubling code. I meant
something that I (or any user) might put in, and then later decide this is
not exactly the way you want it, and so wish to make an adjustment. Your
document looks wrong but you don't know how to find the formatting
element that you inserted and now wish to delete. In WP, that is easy.
Press Reveal Codes, find the code you don't want, and delete it.
On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>wrote:
> At 11:10 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen Etters wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST), Eric Fenster wrote:
>>
>>> What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect?
>>>
>>> This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone as
>>> it is. The feature really helps control formatting.
>>>
>>
>> I'm with Eric on this one. I've pined for that Word Perfect feature for
>> many years. I doubt we'll ever get it, but I wish I still had a copy of
>> Word Perfect. The styles feature doesn't replace WP's ability to find and
>> delete a single troubling code.
>>
>
> The only reason you can have a single troubling code is that the program
> is faulty.
>
--
Helen Etters
using Linux, suse11.4
Re: reveal codes
Posted by Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>.
At 12:21 20/01/2013 -0500, Alan Boba wrote:
>On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Brian Barker wrote:
>>At 11:10 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen Etters wrote:
>>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST), Eric Fenster wrote:
>>>>What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect?
>>>>
>>>>This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect
>>>>program, as crash-prone as it is. The feature really helps control formatting.
>>>
>>>I'm with Eric on this one. I've pined for
>>>that Word Perfect feature for many years. I
>>>doubt we'll ever get it, but I wish I still
>>>had a copy of Word Perfect. The styles
>>>feature doesn't replace WP's ability to find
>>>and delete a single troubling code.
>>
>>The only reason you can have a single troubling
>>code is that the program is faulty. Wouldn't
>>it be more sensible to correct the program so
>>that this couldn't occur? The reason why Word
>>Perfect could have single troubling codes is
>>precisely because users were allowed to tinker
>>with them and introduce mistakes.
>
>My 2¢, I've run across some troubling documents
>with formatting that seemed impossible to
>manage. (Could post sample if its desirable). In
>those few rare cases much frustration and time
>could have been saved with a reveal codes feature.
I agree. As Dennis Hamilton said, "ability to
reveal the styling that applies at any given
place in the text would be very handy in
trouble-shooting a document." But the user must
*not* be allowed to tinker with formatting at
this level, instead being required to make the
changes in the right pace - which will now have become apparent.
>My recollection of Wordperfect history is reveal
>codes was a workaround added to allow users to
>correct format bugs that early versions of the program had.
That's interesting. I didn't know this, but it makes complete sense.
Brian Barker
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Alan Boba <ab...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>wrote:
> At 11:10 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen Etters wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST), Eric Fenster wrote:
>>
>>> What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect?
>>>
>>> This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone as
>>> it is. The feature really helps control formatting.
>>>
>>
>> I'm with Eric on this one. I've pined for that Word Perfect feature for
>> many years. I doubt we'll ever get it, but I wish I still had a copy of
>> Word Perfect. The styles feature doesn't replace WP's ability to find and
>> delete a single troubling code.
>>
>
> The only reason you can have a single troubling code is that the program
> is faulty. Wouldn't it be more sensible to correct the program so that
> this couldn't occur? The reason why Word Perfect could have single
> troubling codes is precisely because users were allowed to tinker with them
> and introduce mistakes.
>
> My 2¢, I've run across some troubling documents with formatting that
seemed impossible to manage. (Could post sample if its desirable). In those
few rare cases much frustration and time could have been saved with a
reveal codes feature. In the situations I experienced no amount of
un/formatting copy paste of desired text or application of styles would
eliminate a border that seemed to be associated with a paragraph but
wouldn't be eliminated. The "final solution" was rewrite and reformat a
third of the document in a new document and copy paste the 2/3 of the
document not affected by the format bug into the new document.
My recollection of Wordperfect history is reveal codes was a workaround
added to allow users to correct format bugs that early versions of the
program had. Certainly AOO has some of its own format bugs. Perhaps its
better to give users the ability to correct bugs by tinkering directly with
the formatting codes then to make them wait for bug fixes.
Re: reveal codes
Posted by Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>.
At 11:10 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen Etters wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST), Eric Fenster wrote:
>>What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect?
>>
>>This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect
>>program, as crash-prone as it is. The feature really helps control formatting.
>
>I'm with Eric on this one. I've pined for that
>Word Perfect feature for many years. I doubt
>we'll ever get it, but I wish I still had a copy
>of Word Perfect. The styles feature doesn't
>replace WP's ability to find and delete a single troubling code.
The only reason you can have a single troubling
code is that the program is faulty. Wouldn't it
be more sensible to correct the program so that
this couldn't occur? The reason why Word Perfect
could have single troubling codes is precisely
because users were allowed to tinker with them and introduce mistakes.
Any word processor needs a simple way of
displaying the structure of a document, so that
the user can easily see why it is how it is, but
that does not have to be in the form of tags
before and after any item; in fact, there are
better ways. I'm not sure that OpenOffice Writer
lives up to this requirement, in fact - or
perhaps I haven't learned enough about how to use it?
No: styles do not replace the need to be able to
see how a document works, but they may preclude
the user making low-level changes as you wish to
do. Incidentally, it once was a well-known fact
in programming circles that people brought up on
low-level approaches find it difficult to
transfer to higher-level ways of
thinking. Persevere, and you will like the ways of Writer!
Brian Barker
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Helen <et...@gmail.com>.
I'm with Eric on this one. I've pined for that Word Perfect feature for
many years. I doubt
we'll ever get it, but I wish I still had a copy of Word Perfect. The
styles feature doesn't
replace WP's ability to find and delete a single troubling code.
On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie> wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST)
> Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect?
> >
> > This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone as
> it is. The feature really helps control formatting.
> >
> Consistent use of styles should obviate the need for this. Also useful is
> /View /Nonprinting characters, to reveal spaces, tabs and line or paragraph
> breaks.
> --
> Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
--
Helen Etters
using Linux, suse11.4
Re: reveal codes
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 08:27:19 -0800 (PST)
Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Styles doesn't begin to do what Reveal Codes does.
>
> Just simple things like when Bold or Italics stop and start, where languages change, etc. It's far easier to SEE a code, delete where necessary or place a cursor.
Bold and Italics should best be applied as Character Styles (strong emphasis and emphasis, respectively); Foreign language insrtions could be character style Quoation. As OpenOffice is a WYSIWYG editor, they show up on screen where they start and stop.
On the en-Forum there is a useful listing of the predefined styles
http://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=48530
>
> Reveal codes seems to be the major feature that keeps people using Word Perfect. here's got to be a reason. Why Word never did this, I don't know, but Open Office should.
This seems to me to be dinosaur mentality. I once wrote a macro processor to strip formatting codes from Wordstar and print a book to an unsupported output device. I haven't had to do that since 1988, thanks to WYSIWYG.
>
> --- On Sun, 1/20/13, Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
> > From: Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
> > Subject: Re: reveal codes
> > To: users@openoffice.apache.org
> > Cc: "Eric Fenster" <er...@yahoo.com>
> > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2013, 6:06 AM
> > On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800
> > (PST)
> > Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la
> > Word Perfect?
> > >
> > > This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program,
> > as crash-prone as it is. The feature really helps control
> > formatting.
> > >
> > Consistent use of styles should obviate the need for
> > this. Also useful is /View /Nonprinting characters, to
> > reveal spaces, tabs and line or paragraph breaks.
> > --
> > Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
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Ventura Publisher
Posted by Bob Nelson <rl...@yahoo.com>.
I don't have a lot of experience with Writer yet. But what I HOPE is that the Styles capability gives
Writer the same capabilities as the old Ventura Publisher (VP). VP is gone now, I believe buried by
Corel who bought it from Xerox. But I wrote a number of complex user manuals with it back in the
1970s and 1980s (not exactly sure of the dates). In fact I came to know the original authors and served
as one of their beta testers for a time. I liked VP a whole lot, and miss it very much. It made stylized document
development very easy. IMHO far better than any of the newer desktop publisher programs.
VP was aimed at generating an entire document - not just micro-formatting a single page. The basic idea
was that you defined (with easy key-clicks) all the formatting details for a particular "paragraph" type, and then
gave that paragraph type a name. Then every other paragraph you wanted could be tagged with the same name,
and it would take on all the same formatting. Typically I had names like heading, subheading, subsubheading,
document title, chapter title, etc etc. I think you understand. So after you typed in a document's text, you just went
from paragraph (or heading) to paragraph, and tagged each one to format it. Quick and easy way to a professional
looking document.
If Writer has "styles" that operate this way, I hope that capability makes it much like VP.
Anyone have any thoughts along these lines?
Bob Nelson
>________________________________
> From: Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
>To: users@openoffice.apache.org
>Cc: Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:06 AM
>Subject: Re: reveal codes
>
>On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST)
>Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect?
>>
>> This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone as it is. The feature really helps control formatting.
>>
>Consistent use of styles should obviate the need for this. Also useful is /View /Nonprinting characters, to reveal spaces, tabs and line or paragraph breaks.
>--
>Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
>
Re: reveal codes
Posted by Dan Lewis <el...@gmail.com>.
On 01/21/2013 01:47 PM, Regina Henschel wrote:
> Hi Eric,
>
> Eric Fenster schrieb:
>> Styles doesn't begin to do what Reveal Codes does.
>>
>> Just simple things like when Bold or Italics stop and start, where
>> languages change, etc. It's far easier to SEE a code, delete where
>> necessary or place a cursor.
>>
>> Reveal codes seems to be the major feature that keeps people using
>> Word Perfect. here's got to be a reason. Why Word never did this, I
>> don't know, but Open Office should.
>
> OpenOffice has the feature to search for attributes and formats and
> mark the text parts accordingly. Have you ever use it?
>
> It is very powerful. But one shortcoming is, that it looses the
> highlighting when you click in the text to edit something. Perhaps it
> would help to make the marking persistent until the user turns it off
> explicitly or searches again?
>
> Kind regards
> Regina
One comment about the shortcoming: Once you click in the text, you
can click Find again to highlight the next occurrence. Below the
vertical scroll bar are two double arrows. Once you have defined a
search, you can use these to search forward or backward.
--Dan
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Regina Henschel <rb...@t-online.de>.
Hi Eric,
Eric Fenster schrieb:
> Styles doesn't begin to do what Reveal Codes does.
>
> Just simple things like when Bold or Italics stop and start, where
> languages change, etc. It's far easier to SEE a code, delete where
> necessary or place a cursor.
>
> Reveal codes seems to be the major feature that keeps people using
> Word Perfect. here's got to be a reason. Why Word never did this, I
> don't know, but Open Office should.
OpenOffice has the feature to search for attributes and formats and mark
the text parts accordingly. Have you ever use it?
It is very powerful. But one shortcoming is, that it looses the
highlighting when you click in the text to edit something. Perhaps it
would help to make the marking persistent until the user turns it off
explicitly or searches again?
Kind regards
Regina
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com>.
Styles doesn't begin to do what Reveal Codes does.
Just simple things like when Bold or Italics stop and start, where languages change, etc. It's far easier to SEE a code, delete where necessary or place a cursor.
Reveal codes seems to be the major feature that keeps people using Word Perfect. here's got to be a reason. Why Word never did this, I don't know, but Open Office should.
--- On Sun, 1/20/13, Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie> wrote:
> From: Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
> Subject: Re: reveal codes
> To: users@openoffice.apache.org
> Cc: "Eric Fenster" <er...@yahoo.com>
> Date: Sunday, January 20, 2013, 6:06 AM
> On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800
> (PST)
> Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la
> Word Perfect?
> >
> > This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program,
> as crash-prone as it is. The feature really helps control
> formatting.
> >
> Consistent use of styles should obviate the need for
> this. Also useful is /View /Nonprinting characters, to
> reveal spaces, tabs and line or paragraph breaks.
> --
> Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
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Re: reveal codes
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST)
Eric Fenster <er...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> What chance Open Office will offer "reveal codes" à la Word Perfect?
>
> This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone as it is. The feature really helps control formatting.
>
Consistent use of styles should obviate the need for this. Also useful is /View /Nonprinting characters, to reveal spaces, tabs and line or paragraph breaks.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
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