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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com> on 2004/10/28 01:53:44 UTC
Deciding on Java futures?
How are we deciding on the Java Futures? Are we voting? Just talking?
There are wide ranging views here, from add no more (JDK1.5 was bad enough)
to add everything but the kitchen sink.
The wiki has some simpler ideas which haven't been shouted down yet, like
jar in jar and access to the Class from a static context. I also think we
could leverage Jakarta Commons to get small useful methods added in a review
and tidy up of the core libraries (which is desparately needed). Perhaps we
could agree on these?
Could I suggest on language features, that our best approach would be to ask
Sun to allow us to discuss (in private if necessary) their proposed
additions in the next few months. That way we can feedback early our
experiences and maybe avoid adding unecessary or innappropriate 'features'.
(Personally I am on the side of most of the JDK1.5 additions being poor
choices that harm Java)
Stephen
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Re: Deciding on Java futures?
Posted by Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com>.
http://wiki.apache.org/general/JavaFutures
Stephen
--- Dakota Jack <cr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What wiki, where? Thanx,
>
> Jack
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:08:36 -0400, Noel J. Bergman
> <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > First, the ideas can be discussed on the mailing
> list, but we should collect
> > them on the Wiki. Second, we should try to
> prioritize them. Third, I have
> > some feedback already on the good stuff posted,
> and have been asked if we
> >I'm hoping that we'll get some direct feedback on
> the
> > Wiki page from Sun.
> >
> > --- Noel
> >
>
> --
> "You can't wake a person who is pretending to be
> asleep."
>
> ~Native Proverb~
>
> "Each man is good in His sight. It is not necessary
> for eagles to be crows."
>
> ~Hunkesni (Sitting Bull), Hunkpapa Sioux~
>
>
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Re: Deciding on Java futures?
Posted by Dakota Jack <cr...@gmail.com>.
What wiki, where? Thanx,
Jack
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:08:36 -0400, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>
>
> First, the ideas can be discussed on the mailing list, but we should collect
> them on the Wiki. Second, we should try to prioritize them. Third, I have
> some feedback already on the good stuff posted, and have been asked if we
>I'm hoping that we'll get some direct feedback on the
> Wiki page from Sun.
>
> --- Noel
>
--
"You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep."
~Native Proverb~
"Each man is good in His sight. It is not necessary for eagles to be crows."
~Hunkesni (Sitting Bull), Hunkpapa Sioux~
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RE: Deciding on Java futures?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> How can we find out whats already planned by Sun.
I asked that exact question, and was told that they don't want to bias our
input by telling us what is already on the plan. FWIW, I know that some of
the things are already on some plans there. There is a big meeting on
Monday to address futures.
> I'm sure us Commons Math folks would all like to see the
> Nist/Java Grande rectangular matrices issue finalized and
> implemented.
> http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=083
I don't see anything on the JSR-083 site that says that the Expert Group has
produced or finalized anything. But to the general point ...
> Theres a severe bottleneck here where if there isn't a "lead" at
> Sun to channel the JCP into the standard, then it just sits there,
> festering and dying. My fear is that the same would happen to any
> of Jakarta's efforts to do the same. Ultimately, I wonder why Sun
> is going around their own designed community process to interact
> with Apache concerning these sorts of questions?
They aren't. This request is coming from the J2SE lead. Sun has been
speaking with many partners for months to do preliminary research for
planning the Mustang (J2SE 6) Umbrella JSR. They explicitly hope that the
ASF will participate on that Expert Group. This is preliminary work before
setting up the JSR.
--- Noel
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Re: Deciding on Java futures?
Posted by "Mark R. Diggory" <md...@latte.harvard.edu>.
Noel,
How can we find out whats already planned by Sun. For instance, I'm sure
us Commons Math folks would all like to see the Nist/Java Grande
rectangular matrices issue finalized and implemented.
http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=083
But its difficult to see if this is stalled or dead at this point. Seems
the issue is not that Sun needs more ideas, seems they need better
execution on the those that already do exist in the JCP. Theres a severe
bottleneck here where if there isn't a "lead" at Sun to channel the JCP
into the standard, then it just sits there, festering and dying. My fear
is that the same would happen to any of Jakarta's efforts to do the
same. Ultimately, I wonder why Sun is going around their own designed
community process to interact with Apache concerning these sorts of
questions? Who's spearheading this from Sun's side? Is this evidence
that JCP is a failing process?
-Mark
--
Mark Diggory
Software Developer
Harvard MIT Data Center
http://www.hmdc.harvard.edu
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RE: Deciding on Java futures?
Posted by Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com>.
I can't quite see us managing this by tomorrow <:-)
Actually my concern is that we may add stuff to Java
that harms rather than helps (Java isn't C or C++).
So, my question remains whether we have any
opportunity to vote against bad ideas.
Anyway, its good to have some interaction with Sun ;-)
Stephen
--- "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> First, the ideas can be discussed on the mailing
> list, but we should collect
> them on the Wiki. Second, we should try to
> prioritize them. Third, I have
> some feedback already on the good stuff posted, and
> have been asked if we
> can provide some use cases, e.g., for continuations.
> Not that the ideas
> aren't good, but the use cases will bolster the
> arguments internally at Sun
> for why a given feature is important.
>
> FWIW, I'm told that some of the ideas are already
> planned, so that should
> make folks happy. I'm hoping that we'll get some
> direct feedback on the
> Wiki page from Sun.
>
> --- Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Colebourne
> [mailto:scolebourne@btopenworld.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 19:54
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Deciding on Java futures?
>
>
> How are we deciding on the Java Futures? Are we
> voting? Just talking?
>
> There are wide ranging views here, from add no more
> (JDK1.5 was bad enough)
> to add everything but the kitchen sink.
>
> The wiki has some simpler ideas which haven't been
> shouted down yet, like
> jar in jar and access to the Class from a static
> context. I also think we
> could leverage Jakarta Commons to get small useful
> methods added in a review
> and tidy up of the core libraries (which is
> desparately needed). Perhaps we
> could agree on these?
>
> Could I suggest on language features, that our best
> approach would be to ask
> Sun to allow us to discuss (in private if necessary)
> their proposed
> additions in the next few months. That way we can
> feedback early our
> experiences and maybe avoid adding unecessary or
> innappropriate 'features'.
> (Personally I am on the side of most of the JDK1.5
> additions being poor
> choices that harm Java)
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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RE: Deciding on Java futures?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Stephen Colebourne wrote:
> How are we deciding on the Java Futures? Are we voting? Just talking?
Funny you should ask ... :-)
First, the ideas can be discussed on the mailing list, but we should collect
them on the Wiki. Second, we should try to prioritize them. Third, I have
some feedback already on the good stuff posted, and have been asked if we
can provide some use cases, e.g., for continuations. Not that the ideas
aren't good, but the use cases will bolster the arguments internally at Sun
for why a given feature is important.
FWIW, I'm told that some of the ideas are already planned, so that should
make folks happy. I'm hoping that we'll get some direct feedback on the
Wiki page from Sun.
--- Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Colebourne [mailto:scolebourne@btopenworld.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 19:54
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Deciding on Java futures?
How are we deciding on the Java Futures? Are we voting? Just talking?
There are wide ranging views here, from add no more (JDK1.5 was bad enough)
to add everything but the kitchen sink.
The wiki has some simpler ideas which haven't been shouted down yet, like
jar in jar and access to the Class from a static context. I also think we
could leverage Jakarta Commons to get small useful methods added in a review
and tidy up of the core libraries (which is desparately needed). Perhaps we
could agree on these?
Could I suggest on language features, that our best approach would be to ask
Sun to allow us to discuss (in private if necessary) their proposed
additions in the next few months. That way we can feedback early our
experiences and maybe avoid adding unecessary or innappropriate 'features'.
(Personally I am on the side of most of the JDK1.5 additions being poor
choices that harm Java)
Stephen
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