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Posted to users@cocoon.apache.org by "Ivanov, Ivelin" <Iv...@bmc.com> on 2002/02/13 22:43:37 UTC
RE: Cocoon, XForms, ExFormula, Chiba, Struts, etc
That sounds good.
We've used Castor for successfully binding heavy XML traffic.
Have you coordinated efforts with the folks that started ExFormula.
I see that Chris is still active on the Cocoon list.
The reason why I am opening this subject again is
because I think it can add significant value to Cocoon.
I am prepared to put some time working on this.
Please let me know if we should keep this discussion in the dev mailing
list.
So, as briefly as I can, I'll share my experience and ideas:
For those who haven't used Struts:
It is a succesful Apache project (http://jakarta.apache.org/struts) which
automates the task of mapping html forms to value objects used in an
application domain.
It's expected to influence directly the following JSRs:
JavaServer Faces JSR: http://jcp.org/jsr/detail/127.jsp
JSP 1.4 JSR: http://jcp.org/jsr/detail/152.jsp
If it's so good, why are you posting on this list ?
Struts is great with HTML forms. However it doesn't deal nor it plans
to deal with any other sort of media.
It doesn't take into perspective web services for example.
We want to reuse the interface layer for SOAP clients as well.
For some time now our project had pending requirements for web services
support.
We want to let other companies integrate with our portal.
A reason why we keep pushing this requirement off
is that it can't happen easy. All our external interface have been tied to
JSP+Struts. Since we want to allow customers to do through web services
what they could do through the regular Web UI, we'll need to write a brand
new
interface layer. We won't be able to reuse the automatic population and
validation
that we have for the HTML interface.
Being a Cocoon newbie, I might be totally wrong, but
it appears that the current Cocoon architecture is
also focused towards HTML form validation (through
rules for HTTP POST/GET params), but it also does not
try to deal with other media like SOAP.
Last October there has been an interesting discussion
on the Cocoon mailing list about integrating server
side XForms.
I found it quite interesting, because based on my
experience I do believe there is a farely good chance
that XForms (or some limited version) can be
successfully integrated in Cocoon so that data
validation and java binding code (two way: web client
<-> XML <-> Java domain objects) can be easily reused
for clients ranging from HTML to SOAP. I also believe
that this can be achieved with a sufficiently high
performance (in many cases the WebClient <->
JavaObjects transformation can be achieved without
necessarily going through naive XML representation.
Instead using SAX events and JAXB ).
Additionally data validation can be probably achieved elegantly
through parser (xerces2) validation against XML Schema.
Berin, Chris, Torsten and others seem to have made similar observation
and have therefore started ExFormula last year.
Chiba looks promising too.
Can we try to unify and finish the job started, so that Cocoon moves to the
next level.
I'm all ears !
-= Ivelin =-
-----Original Message-----
From: Thorsten Mauch [mailto:mauch@imkenberg.de]
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 7:49 AM
To: 'cocoon-users@xml.apache.org'
Subject: AW: Cocoon, XForms, ExFormula,, Struts, etc
Hi
we are working on a integeration from
cocoon chiba and castor-xml
http://sourceforge.net/projects/chiba/
we like to use castor to perform
the data exchange automaticly.
Beside this we wrote some basic
actions to handle Xforms request.
I hope that you will see a basic
version of that in the Chiba CVS
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Ivanov, Ivelin [mailto:Ivelin_Ivanov@bmc.com]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Februar 2002 06:49
An: 'cocoon-users@xml.apache.org'
Betreff: Cocoon, XForms, ExFormula,, Struts, etc
Hi,
After using successfully JSPs+Struts for a relatively big enterprise
project, I've grown to appreciate the MVC model, but have also found some
places where it can be improved.
Before starting a long discussion, I'm first just looking for a short answer
to the following question:
Does Cocoon 2 have a mechanism for achieving automatic Form population and
validation, similar to Struts ?
I've noticed that in the project archive XForms and ExFormula have been
discussed on a number of ocasions, but they've been integrated in C2. Am I
wrong?
I will appreciate a prompt response.
Thank you.
-= Ivelin Ivanov =-
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Re: Cocoon, XForms, ExFormula, Chiba, Struts, etc
Posted by Christian Haul <ha...@dvs1.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de>.
On 15.Feb.2002 -- 12:48 PM, Torsten Curdt wrote:
> > I'm currently working on decoupling sitemap components from the input
> > layer, making that plugable. I think it could help with b)
>
> Sounds interesting... could already post some more information. We've
> maybe implemented something similar...
If you're interested what I'm up to, have a look at the scratchpad
area and look at the ModularDatabaseActions. The version in scratchpad
does some very ugly component handling, though, but I'm almost done
moving it to use the overall framework. Hope to have a version ready
at the beginning of next week. I've even tried two or three times to
attract attention for it with a RT but that went unnoticed because of
the 2.0 release.
Anyway, the actions will move to org.apache.cocoon.acting.modular and
have the name adjusted accordingly. The helpers are going into
org.apache.cocoon.components.modules.{input,output,database} again
with some name changes. getAttribute will be removed from output
modules. Configuration will move from sitemap to cocoon.xconf.
Chris.
--
C h r i s t i a n H a u l
haul@informatik.tu-darmstadt.de
fingerprint: 99B0 1D9D 7919 644A 4837 7D73 FEF9 6856 335A 9E08
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RE: Cocoon, XForms, ExFormula, Chiba, Struts, etc
Posted by Peter Velichko <pe...@softline.kiev.ua>.
Did anyone look at http://xform.nanoworks.org?
It is client-side and server-side form validator.
XForm uses Xerces XML Parser and have LGPL license.
-----Original Message-----
From: Torsten Curdt [mailto:tcurdt@dff.st]
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 1:49 PM
To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
Subject: Re: Cocoon, XForms, ExFormula, Chiba, Struts, etc
<snip/>
> > Can we try to unify and finish the job started, so that Cocoon moves to
the
> > next level.
Would be cool...
> There isn't anything on the architecture of chiba available so I have
> no idea how closely related chiba to XForms support in Cocoon would
> be.
I've also tried to find some information about chiba... didn't yet have
the time to install and try it out.
Although I guess XForm is about to become a RC sooner or later it doesn't
yet go well with the current technologies available.
Looking into XUL from mozilla could be an interesting alternative...
(although they do not aim completely into the same direction!!)
http://www.mozilla.org/xpfe/xulref/
I haven't had a look into the XForm spec since the exformula stuff. I hope
they fixed some stuff. That days it still felt somehow immature. They spec
didn't say anything how selected options in a multi select optionbox was
supposed to look like in the instance e.g. :-/
I am back again a bit sceptic...
> For Cocoon, I see two different and in part unrelated areas:
> a) populate the form
> b) Given that the client does support XForms, migrate the existing
> actions to be XForms based i.e. make them aware of the changed
> communication protocol.
> c) For clients that do not support XForms
> c1) have XForms output translated to XHTML
> c2) have the returned results transformed to an XML representation
> like an XForms aware client would generate.
> c3) validate the input
ok
> I'm currently working on decoupling sitemap components from the input
> layer, making that plugable. I think it could help with b)
Sounds interesting... could already post some more information. We've
maybe implemented something similar...
> I think c2) would be easy. I'm not quite sure if suitable components
> exist already. I believe I came across some that looked quite
> promising but didn't investigate it any further.
>
> For c3 it looked like that could be done by e.g. Xerces like you said
> above.
>
> Probably c1 is the most complicated part.
As I remember c1) isn't yet possible with the current XSLT
spec/implementation. It's only possible with extension functions :-(ugly)
--
Torsten
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Re: Cocoon, XForms, ExFormula, Chiba, Struts, etc
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@dff.st>.
<snip/>
> > Can we try to unify and finish the job started, so that Cocoon moves to the
> > next level.
Would be cool...
> There isn't anything on the architecture of chiba available so I have
> no idea how closely related chiba to XForms support in Cocoon would
> be.
I've also tried to find some information about chiba... didn't yet have
the time to install and try it out.
Although I guess XForm is about to become a RC sooner or later it doesn't
yet go well with the current technologies available.
Looking into XUL from mozilla could be an interesting alternative...
(although they do not aim completely into the same direction!!)
http://www.mozilla.org/xpfe/xulref/
I haven't had a look into the XForm spec since the exformula stuff. I hope
they fixed some stuff. That days it still felt somehow immature. They spec
didn't say anything how selected options in a multi select optionbox was
supposed to look like in the instance e.g. :-/
I am back again a bit sceptic...
> For Cocoon, I see two different and in part unrelated areas:
> a) populate the form
> b) Given that the client does support XForms, migrate the existing
> actions to be XForms based i.e. make them aware of the changed
> communication protocol.
> c) For clients that do not support XForms
> c1) have XForms output translated to XHTML
> c2) have the returned results transformed to an XML representation
> like an XForms aware client would generate.
> c3) validate the input
ok
> I'm currently working on decoupling sitemap components from the input
> layer, making that plugable. I think it could help with b)
Sounds interesting... could already post some more information. We've
maybe implemented something similar...
> I think c2) would be easy. I'm not quite sure if suitable components
> exist already. I believe I came across some that looked quite
> promising but didn't investigate it any further.
>
> For c3 it looked like that could be done by e.g. Xerces like you said
> above.
>
> Probably c1 is the most complicated part.
As I remember c1) isn't yet possible with the current XSLT
spec/implementation. It's only possible with extension functions :-(ugly)
--
Torsten
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Re: Cocoon, XForms, ExFormula, Chiba, Struts, etc
Posted by Christian Haul <ha...@dvs1.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de>.
On 13.Feb.2002 -- 03:43 PM, Ivanov, Ivelin wrote:
> I see that Chris is still active on the Cocoon list.
Well, actually, all are committers for cocoon and I'm afraid that I'm
the lest active one among them :-|
> Please let me know if we should keep this discussion in the dev mailing
> list.
Probably the right place for it, yes.
> Being a Cocoon newbie, I might be totally wrong, but
> it appears that the current Cocoon architecture is
> also focused towards HTML form validation (through
> rules for HTTP POST/GET params), but it also does not
> try to deal with other media like SOAP.
Oh, there's some extent of SOAP support in Cocoon. But you're right,
not integrated with form validation &c.
> Additionally data validation can be probably achieved elegantly
> through parser (xerces2) validation against XML Schema.
Yes, that is what we started to investigate. But lack of time and
other more pressing things came in the way.
> Berin, Chris, Torsten and others seem to have made similar observation
> and have therefore started ExFormula last year.
> Chiba looks promising too.
> Can we try to unify and finish the job started, so that Cocoon moves to the
> next level.
There isn't anything on the architecture of chiba available so I have
no idea how closely related chiba to XForms support in Cocoon would
be.
For Cocoon, I see two different and in part unrelated areas:
a) populate the form
b) Given that the client does support XForms, migrate the existing
actions to be XForms based i.e. make them aware of the changed
communication protocol.
c) For clients that do not support XForms
c1) have XForms output translated to XHTML
c2) have the returned results transformed to an XML representation
like an XForms aware client would generate.
c3) validate the input
I'm currently working on decoupling sitemap components from the input
layer, making that plugable. I think it could help with b)
I think c2) would be easy. I'm not quite sure if suitable components
exist already. I believe I came across some that looked quite
promising but didn't investigate it any further.
For c3 it looked like that could be done by e.g. Xerces like you said
above.
Probably c1 is the most complicated part.
Chris.
--
C h r i s t i a n H a u l
haul@informatik.tu-darmstadt.de
fingerprint: 99B0 1D9D 7919 644A 4837 7D73 FEF9 6856 335A 9E08
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