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Posted to dev@cayenne.apache.org by Helena Borak <xh...@gmail.com> on 2015/05/25 23:16:46 UTC
Question about library (CAY-895)
Hi,
I'm working on issue CAY-895.
It was suggested to use l2fprod library, which turned out to be
unsupported, so I'd like to ask you what I'm supposed to do now.
Shall I make necessary class by myself (what shouldn't be a problem) or do
you suggest any other library ?
Helena Borak
Re: Question about library (CAY-895)
Posted by Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org>.
I am -1 on new Modeler dependencies unless we have a good enough reason to have it there. There is a support cost (say we are upgrading to Java 8 and it doesn't work with java 8). We actually spent quite a lot of time weeding our ancient libs, let's not add any new ones :)
Full Modeler rewrite is an interesting topic, but that's unrelated.
Andrus
> On Jul 30, 2015, at 5:31 PM, John Huss <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I doubt rewriting the entire modeler is in scope for this project.
>
> Since Swing is not ever going to change there's not much danger in using a
> third party library as long it works correctly. So I would go ahead and
> use it.
>
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 7:31 AM Michael Gentry <mg...@masslight.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Ari and others. I've been meaning to reply to this for a while, but was
>> busy vacationing and vegetating...
>>
>> I briefly played with JavaFX and Scene Builder a couple years ago and it
>> seemed "neat" at the time, but looking at Oracle's web site makes me wonder
>> how much support it'll continue to have in the future if you have to
>> download and build the tools yourself:
>>
>>
>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/sb2download-2177776.html
>>
>> And yes, I'd suggest using Scene Builder (if using JavaFX) so you have a UI
>> building tool (kind of like Interface Builder for any of the
>> NeXTstep/OpenStep/OS X/iOS types). Writing UI in unnecessary code is very
>> 1980s.
>>
>> Another option I thought about for a Cayenne Modeler replacement was to
>> make it a web application. You can have an embedded Jetty server which is
>> started up by the web application and launches the browser for you to the
>> proper URL (the H2 Database Console takes this approach -- just java -jar
>> your-h2-jar-file in your ~/.m2 to see this concept in action). This would
>> solve some current limitations: could use multiple tabs/windows to have
>> multiple models open and allow multi-user editing (although you'd have to
>> bake some security measures in). Perhaps even a few more, and I don't
>> think browser technology is going away anytime soon. The big decision
>> there would be which web framework to use (I've been a fan of Tapestry 5
>> for a while now, so that's my current bias, but there are others).
>>
>> mrg
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 8:17 PM, Aristedes Maniatis <ar...@maniatis.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Helena
>>>
>>> At work I have a commercial Swing project which is now about 9 years old.
>>> Although we evaluated very many third party UI libraries from SwingX to
>>> commercial offerings, we ended up rejecting them all and just building
>> our
>>> own components. The way I see it:
>>>
>>> * ALL swing libraries are doomed. That is, no-one is starting new
>> projects
>>> in Swing and so there is diminishing support for whatever libraries exist
>>> today. If they have support at the moment, they will probably not have
>>> support next year.
>>>
>>> * So, use a library if we are prepared to understand and support
>> ourselves
>>> (or extract the relevant parts).
>>>
>>> * Or, recognise that somewhere in the not distant future of every Swing
>>> project is probably a complete rewrite into JavaFX. Coincidentally my
>> work
>>> project just this week is building some test UI in JavaFX to see what the
>>> migration will be like. Hopefully I'll understand more soon.
>>>
>>> Also, remember that:
>>>
>>> * We can write bits of UI in JavaFX and other bits we keep in Swing until
>>> we are ready. I'm still exploring that myself, so I'm not sure of the
>>> limitations of this approach.
>>>
>>> * Cayenne Modeler could probably be advanced to Java 8 (where the most
>>> recent UI improvements are) even if the Cayenne library is held back to
>>> older Java versions.
>>>
>>> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17018562
>>>
>>> Ari
>>>
>>>
>>> On 26/05/2015 7:16am, Helena Borak wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I'm working on issue CAY-895.
>>>> It was suggested to use l2fprod library, which turned out to be
>>>> unsupported, so I'd like to ask you what I'm supposed to do now.
>>>> Shall I make necessary class by myself (what shouldn't be a problem) or
>>> do
>>>> you suggest any other library ?
>>>>
>>>> Helena Borak
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> -------------------------->
>>> Aristedes Maniatis
>>> GPG fingerprint CBFB 84B4 738D 4E87 5E5C 5EFA EF6A 7D2E 3E49 102A
>>>
>>
Re: Question about library (CAY-895)
Posted by John Huss <jo...@gmail.com>.
I doubt rewriting the entire modeler is in scope for this project.
Since Swing is not ever going to change there's not much danger in using a
third party library as long it works correctly. So I would go ahead and
use it.
On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 7:31 AM Michael Gentry <mg...@masslight.net>
wrote:
> Hi Ari and others. I've been meaning to reply to this for a while, but was
> busy vacationing and vegetating...
>
> I briefly played with JavaFX and Scene Builder a couple years ago and it
> seemed "neat" at the time, but looking at Oracle's web site makes me wonder
> how much support it'll continue to have in the future if you have to
> download and build the tools yourself:
>
>
> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/sb2download-2177776.html
>
> And yes, I'd suggest using Scene Builder (if using JavaFX) so you have a UI
> building tool (kind of like Interface Builder for any of the
> NeXTstep/OpenStep/OS X/iOS types). Writing UI in unnecessary code is very
> 1980s.
>
> Another option I thought about for a Cayenne Modeler replacement was to
> make it a web application. You can have an embedded Jetty server which is
> started up by the web application and launches the browser for you to the
> proper URL (the H2 Database Console takes this approach -- just java -jar
> your-h2-jar-file in your ~/.m2 to see this concept in action). This would
> solve some current limitations: could use multiple tabs/windows to have
> multiple models open and allow multi-user editing (although you'd have to
> bake some security measures in). Perhaps even a few more, and I don't
> think browser technology is going away anytime soon. The big decision
> there would be which web framework to use (I've been a fan of Tapestry 5
> for a while now, so that's my current bias, but there are others).
>
> mrg
>
>
> On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 8:17 PM, Aristedes Maniatis <ar...@maniatis.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Helena
> >
> > At work I have a commercial Swing project which is now about 9 years old.
> > Although we evaluated very many third party UI libraries from SwingX to
> > commercial offerings, we ended up rejecting them all and just building
> our
> > own components. The way I see it:
> >
> > * ALL swing libraries are doomed. That is, no-one is starting new
> projects
> > in Swing and so there is diminishing support for whatever libraries exist
> > today. If they have support at the moment, they will probably not have
> > support next year.
> >
> > * So, use a library if we are prepared to understand and support
> ourselves
> > (or extract the relevant parts).
> >
> > * Or, recognise that somewhere in the not distant future of every Swing
> > project is probably a complete rewrite into JavaFX. Coincidentally my
> work
> > project just this week is building some test UI in JavaFX to see what the
> > migration will be like. Hopefully I'll understand more soon.
> >
> > Also, remember that:
> >
> > * We can write bits of UI in JavaFX and other bits we keep in Swing until
> > we are ready. I'm still exploring that myself, so I'm not sure of the
> > limitations of this approach.
> >
> > * Cayenne Modeler could probably be advanced to Java 8 (where the most
> > recent UI improvements are) even if the Cayenne library is held back to
> > older Java versions.
> >
> > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17018562
> >
> > Ari
> >
> >
> > On 26/05/2015 7:16am, Helena Borak wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > I'm working on issue CAY-895.
> > > It was suggested to use l2fprod library, which turned out to be
> > > unsupported, so I'd like to ask you what I'm supposed to do now.
> > > Shall I make necessary class by myself (what shouldn't be a problem) or
> > do
> > > you suggest any other library ?
> > >
> > > Helena Borak
> > >
> >
> > --
> > -------------------------->
> > Aristedes Maniatis
> > GPG fingerprint CBFB 84B4 738D 4E87 5E5C 5EFA EF6A 7D2E 3E49 102A
> >
>
Re: Question about library (CAY-895)
Posted by Michael Gentry <mg...@masslight.net>.
Hi Ari and others. I've been meaning to reply to this for a while, but was
busy vacationing and vegetating...
I briefly played with JavaFX and Scene Builder a couple years ago and it
seemed "neat" at the time, but looking at Oracle's web site makes me wonder
how much support it'll continue to have in the future if you have to
download and build the tools yourself:
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/sb2download-2177776.html
And yes, I'd suggest using Scene Builder (if using JavaFX) so you have a UI
building tool (kind of like Interface Builder for any of the
NeXTstep/OpenStep/OS X/iOS types). Writing UI in unnecessary code is very
1980s.
Another option I thought about for a Cayenne Modeler replacement was to
make it a web application. You can have an embedded Jetty server which is
started up by the web application and launches the browser for you to the
proper URL (the H2 Database Console takes this approach -- just java -jar
your-h2-jar-file in your ~/.m2 to see this concept in action). This would
solve some current limitations: could use multiple tabs/windows to have
multiple models open and allow multi-user editing (although you'd have to
bake some security measures in). Perhaps even a few more, and I don't
think browser technology is going away anytime soon. The big decision
there would be which web framework to use (I've been a fan of Tapestry 5
for a while now, so that's my current bias, but there are others).
mrg
On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 8:17 PM, Aristedes Maniatis <ar...@maniatis.org>
wrote:
> Hi Helena
>
> At work I have a commercial Swing project which is now about 9 years old.
> Although we evaluated very many third party UI libraries from SwingX to
> commercial offerings, we ended up rejecting them all and just building our
> own components. The way I see it:
>
> * ALL swing libraries are doomed. That is, no-one is starting new projects
> in Swing and so there is diminishing support for whatever libraries exist
> today. If they have support at the moment, they will probably not have
> support next year.
>
> * So, use a library if we are prepared to understand and support ourselves
> (or extract the relevant parts).
>
> * Or, recognise that somewhere in the not distant future of every Swing
> project is probably a complete rewrite into JavaFX. Coincidentally my work
> project just this week is building some test UI in JavaFX to see what the
> migration will be like. Hopefully I'll understand more soon.
>
> Also, remember that:
>
> * We can write bits of UI in JavaFX and other bits we keep in Swing until
> we are ready. I'm still exploring that myself, so I'm not sure of the
> limitations of this approach.
>
> * Cayenne Modeler could probably be advanced to Java 8 (where the most
> recent UI improvements are) even if the Cayenne library is held back to
> older Java versions.
>
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17018562
>
> Ari
>
>
> On 26/05/2015 7:16am, Helena Borak wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I'm working on issue CAY-895.
> > It was suggested to use l2fprod library, which turned out to be
> > unsupported, so I'd like to ask you what I'm supposed to do now.
> > Shall I make necessary class by myself (what shouldn't be a problem) or
> do
> > you suggest any other library ?
> >
> > Helena Borak
> >
>
> --
> -------------------------->
> Aristedes Maniatis
> GPG fingerprint CBFB 84B4 738D 4E87 5E5C 5EFA EF6A 7D2E 3E49 102A
>
Re: Question about library (CAY-895)
Posted by Aristedes Maniatis <ar...@maniatis.org>.
Hi Helena
At work I have a commercial Swing project which is now about 9 years old. Although we evaluated very many third party UI libraries from SwingX to commercial offerings, we ended up rejecting them all and just building our own components. The way I see it:
* ALL swing libraries are doomed. That is, no-one is starting new projects in Swing and so there is diminishing support for whatever libraries exist today. If they have support at the moment, they will probably not have support next year.
* So, use a library if we are prepared to understand and support ourselves (or extract the relevant parts).
* Or, recognise that somewhere in the not distant future of every Swing project is probably a complete rewrite into JavaFX. Coincidentally my work project just this week is building some test UI in JavaFX to see what the migration will be like. Hopefully I'll understand more soon.
Also, remember that:
* We can write bits of UI in JavaFX and other bits we keep in Swing until we are ready. I'm still exploring that myself, so I'm not sure of the limitations of this approach.
* Cayenne Modeler could probably be advanced to Java 8 (where the most recent UI improvements are) even if the Cayenne library is held back to older Java versions.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17018562
Ari
On 26/05/2015 7:16am, Helena Borak wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm working on issue CAY-895.
> It was suggested to use l2fprod library, which turned out to be
> unsupported, so I'd like to ask you what I'm supposed to do now.
> Shall I make necessary class by myself (what shouldn't be a problem) or do
> you suggest any other library ?
>
> Helena Borak
>
--
-------------------------->
Aristedes Maniatis
GPG fingerprint CBFB 84B4 738D 4E87 5E5C 5EFA EF6A 7D2E 3E49 102A