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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by James Strachan <ja...@gmail.com> on 2006/02/15 16:56:06 UTC
Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Dims & Sanjiva
Given your arguments that the Sybase BPEL donation should be in a new
podling rather than part of ServiceMix - I wonder if you'd like to
join us in the ODE proposal then we can have a united Apache
community with folks from Agila, Geronimo, ServiceMix, & WS involved
to insure plenty of cross pollination.
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OdeProposa
James
Begin forwarded message:
> From: "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>
> Date: 14 February 2006 07:35:33 GMT
> To: dev@geronimo.apache.org, general@incubator.apache.org,
> servicemix-dev@geronimo.apache.org
> Subject: Ode Proposal
> Reply-To: general@incubator.apache.org
>
> Ok. Here's the proposal http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/
> OdeProposal. Please feel free to comment.
>
> We need some more mentors. Anyone?
James
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http://radio.weblogs.com/0112098/
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Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@gmail.com>.
On 15 Feb 2006, at 16:31, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-02-15 at 15:56 +0000, James Strachan wrote:
>> Dims & Sanjiva
>>
>> Given your arguments that the Sybase BPEL donation should be in a new
>> podling rather than part of ServiceMix - I wonder if you'd like to
>> join us in the ODE proposal then we can have a united Apache
>> community with folks from Agila, Geronimo, ServiceMix, & WS involved
>> to insure plenty of cross pollination.
>
> Wow I feel "special" to get asked liked this ;-).
>
> I was going to ask to join anyway .. so I'll be happy to.
Great! :)
> However, I
> would like to request some changes:
>
> - Under warning signs, in the "Homogenous developers" category it
> lists
> developers from Sybase, IBM & LogicBlaze. Is it the case that the
> *current* codebase has contribs from all these companies? If not I
> believe the spirit of the question is about the current codebase, not
> about the group that'll get it thru incubation. So please indicate who
> wrote the current codebase (which I believe is all Synbase).
Good point - fixed.
> - The initial committers list is very long. I'm on service-mix dev
> and I
> see only 2-3 people committing
Have you tried looking at the SVN logs? The codebase has only been in
the incubator for 2 months and 12 folks have been hacking the code
furiously (and we're still waiting for karma for a couple more
committers).
> (and little or no discussion; am I
> missing some stuff??).
Maybe you're email filters are hiding email? There's a fair amount of
discussion...
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/geronimo-servicemix-dev/
200602.mbox/thread
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/geronimo-servicemix-dev/
200601.mbox/thread
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/geronimo-servicemix-dev/
200512.mbox/thread
There's plenty of background chatter on IRC too if you need more chat
(though important decisions and votes always take place via email)
> Can we try to list people who are really going to
> write code for this? It doesn't make sense to list *23* committers
> unless they will really write code.
They will.
> We can always bring people on board
> as they start contributing. If all these people are really so hot to
> mess with a BPEL impl, damn, I should feel really good about BPEL ;-).
You should as they are. The people listed who are servicemix
committers have committed substantial code already to ServiceMix and
are keen to work on the integration of BPEL + ServiceMix along with
enhancing the core BPEL engine (such as the management & persistence
piece). The Sybase folks wrote the original code and the Agila
committer is the guy who wrote all the BPEL code in Agila - so far
I'm happy with the committer list.
> - Given the, um, strong feelings expressed by so many people about
> this
> project, how about if we get the Incubator PMC to sponsor this
> poddling?
Why does the sponsor PMC make any difference to whether the BPEL
engine goes top level or not? e.g. Tuscany is sponsored by WS and is
gonna be a TLP?
Given the Geronimo PMC did vote to accept the patch into ServiceMix
(though given the general sentiment to use a separate podling we've
backed off), we'd rather stick to the same sponsor PMC for the moment.
James
-------
http://radio.weblogs.com/0112098/
Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@gmail.com>.
On 15 Feb 2006, at 16:31, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-02-15 at 15:56 +0000, James Strachan wrote:
>> Dims & Sanjiva
>>
>> Given your arguments that the Sybase BPEL donation should be in a new
>> podling rather than part of ServiceMix - I wonder if you'd like to
>> join us in the ODE proposal then we can have a united Apache
>> community with folks from Agila, Geronimo, ServiceMix, & WS involved
>> to insure plenty of cross pollination.
>
> Wow I feel "special" to get asked liked this ;-).
>
> I was going to ask to join anyway .. so I'll be happy to.
Great! :)
> However, I
> would like to request some changes:
>
> - Under warning signs, in the "Homogenous developers" category it
> lists
> developers from Sybase, IBM & LogicBlaze. Is it the case that the
> *current* codebase has contribs from all these companies? If not I
> believe the spirit of the question is about the current codebase, not
> about the group that'll get it thru incubation. So please indicate who
> wrote the current codebase (which I believe is all Synbase).
Good point - fixed.
> - The initial committers list is very long. I'm on service-mix dev
> and I
> see only 2-3 people committing
Have you tried looking at the SVN logs? The codebase has only been in
the incubator for 2 months and 12 folks have been hacking the code
furiously (and we're still waiting for karma for a couple more
committers).
> (and little or no discussion; am I
> missing some stuff??).
Maybe you're email filters are hiding email? There's a fair amount of
discussion...
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/geronimo-servicemix-dev/
200602.mbox/thread
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/geronimo-servicemix-dev/
200601.mbox/thread
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/geronimo-servicemix-dev/
200512.mbox/thread
There's plenty of background chatter on IRC too if you need more chat
(though important decisions and votes always take place via email)
> Can we try to list people who are really going to
> write code for this? It doesn't make sense to list *23* committers
> unless they will really write code.
They will.
> We can always bring people on board
> as they start contributing. If all these people are really so hot to
> mess with a BPEL impl, damn, I should feel really good about BPEL ;-).
You should as they are. The people listed who are servicemix
committers have committed substantial code already to ServiceMix and
are keen to work on the integration of BPEL + ServiceMix along with
enhancing the core BPEL engine (such as the management & persistence
piece). The Sybase folks wrote the original code and the Agila
committer is the guy who wrote all the BPEL code in Agila - so far
I'm happy with the committer list.
> - Given the, um, strong feelings expressed by so many people about
> this
> project, how about if we get the Incubator PMC to sponsor this
> poddling?
Why does the sponsor PMC make any difference to whether the BPEL
engine goes top level or not? e.g. Tuscany is sponsored by WS and is
gonna be a TLP?
Given the Geronimo PMC did vote to accept the patch into ServiceMix
(though given the general sentiment to use a separate podling we've
backed off), we'd rather stick to the same sponsor PMC for the moment.
James
-------
http://radio.weblogs.com/0112098/
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Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@gmail.com>.
On 15 Feb 2006, at 16:31, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-02-15 at 15:56 +0000, James Strachan wrote:
>> Dims & Sanjiva
>>
>> Given your arguments that the Sybase BPEL donation should be in a new
>> podling rather than part of ServiceMix - I wonder if you'd like to
>> join us in the ODE proposal then we can have a united Apache
>> community with folks from Agila, Geronimo, ServiceMix, & WS involved
>> to insure plenty of cross pollination.
>
> Wow I feel "special" to get asked liked this ;-).
>
> I was going to ask to join anyway .. so I'll be happy to.
Great! :)
> However, I
> would like to request some changes:
>
> - Under warning signs, in the "Homogenous developers" category it
> lists
> developers from Sybase, IBM & LogicBlaze. Is it the case that the
> *current* codebase has contribs from all these companies? If not I
> believe the spirit of the question is about the current codebase, not
> about the group that'll get it thru incubation. So please indicate who
> wrote the current codebase (which I believe is all Synbase).
Good point - fixed.
> - The initial committers list is very long. I'm on service-mix dev
> and I
> see only 2-3 people committing
Have you tried looking at the SVN logs? The codebase has only been in
the incubator for 2 months and 12 folks have been hacking the code
furiously (and we're still waiting for karma for a couple more
committers).
> (and little or no discussion; am I
> missing some stuff??).
Maybe you're email filters are hiding email? There's a fair amount of
discussion...
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/geronimo-servicemix-dev/
200602.mbox/thread
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/geronimo-servicemix-dev/
200601.mbox/thread
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/geronimo-servicemix-dev/
200512.mbox/thread
There's plenty of background chatter on IRC too if you need more chat
(though important decisions and votes always take place via email)
> Can we try to list people who are really going to
> write code for this? It doesn't make sense to list *23* committers
> unless they will really write code.
They will.
> We can always bring people on board
> as they start contributing. If all these people are really so hot to
> mess with a BPEL impl, damn, I should feel really good about BPEL ;-).
You should as they are. The people listed who are servicemix
committers have committed substantial code already to ServiceMix and
are keen to work on the integration of BPEL + ServiceMix along with
enhancing the core BPEL engine (such as the management & persistence
piece). The Sybase folks wrote the original code and the Agila
committer is the guy who wrote all the BPEL code in Agila - so far
I'm happy with the committer list.
> - Given the, um, strong feelings expressed by so many people about
> this
> project, how about if we get the Incubator PMC to sponsor this
> poddling?
Why does the sponsor PMC make any difference to whether the BPEL
engine goes top level or not? e.g. Tuscany is sponsored by WS and is
gonna be a TLP?
Given the Geronimo PMC did vote to accept the patch into ServiceMix
(though given the general sentiment to use a separate podling we've
backed off), we'd rather stick to the same sponsor PMC for the moment.
James
-------
http://radio.weblogs.com/0112098/
Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>.
On 2/15/06, Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org> wrote:
> A number of folks here in the Incubator believe it is best to
> establish a community with no prior ties, and have repeated that on a
> number of occasions (including Sanjiva's and Noel's comments today).
> The general belief is that this will create a better community around
> the ASF's BPEL work.
Greg, I'm trying to understand the statements above. The more I read
them the more it seems that the Incubator PMC can decide what's best
for a proposal at any given time including making decisions about the
oversight. Are there documents about this topic on the Incubator site
that I've missed? I truly want to understand this and I'd appreciate
any further explanation or identification of any documents that
clarifies this issue.
> Part of the problem that I'm seeing is you use of "we" in your
> message. Who is "we"? And that leads to, who is "not we"? Why is there
> a partition? I believe this is one of the primary issues that is being
> dealt with right now, Dain. You are dividing BPEL workers into a "we"
> and "others" camp.
>
> Or, let's just say that was a random term to refer to the Geronimo
> project and you're not really seeing two groups. i.e. not fair of me
> to assign that way of thinking to you. Okay. So moving on: why is it
> important for this to be Geronimo sponsored? Why? Seriously. WTF does
> it matter?
>
> We've already said the IP clearance paperwork is the same no matter
> what. Great. Get that done and start working. When BPEL is ready to
> graduate, then we look at where it goes. Quite possibly Geronimo. But
> what does it matter that Geronimo is the sponsor? Why are you so keyed
> in on that?
>
> I can clearly see benefits with "absence of ties". I don't see the
> benefit of Geronimo sponsoring that you're seeing. And without that
> understanding, then I get to make up crazy reasons :-P
And the statements above aren't helping me understand this any
further. Can you help clarify this for me please?
Bruce
--
perl -e 'print unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*"
);'
Apache Geronimo (http://geronimo.apache.org/)
Castor (http://castor.org/)
Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com>.
I guess I was just reacting to the complete dismissal by Noel. In
the middle of a vote on the Geronimo PMC, we get a message that
effectively the Incubator has stepped in and has take over this
proposal. Now, stop and wait before responding to that statement and
let me explain. The normal process, as I understand it, for a new
podling is a proposal is posted to a some dev list saying, "I'd like
to start a project in the incubator to create X, are you willing to
sponsor it?" The PMC evaluates it and votes. This normal process
was interrupted by Noel simply stating that the Incubator has decided
to sponsor it. There was no public discussion and this proposal was
never even presented to the Incubator PMC for sponsorship. I have
never seen this happen before and it came with a very dismissive note
(my reading).
I find it very frustrating that in my mind the policies and
procedures in the incubator keep changing. When I point this out I
get accused of various things such as "protecting turf". Greg, I can
understand why you see it that way, but I am simply trying to follow
policy, precedent and the Apache Way. Anyway, no need to respond,
I'm just frustrated.
I'm going to try to stay out of the rest of this discussion, but
before I go, I suggest that ALL of you go back to your open source
roots and reexamine this whole situation. There are a very few
people in this discussion that actually want to work on a BPEL engine
or integrate it into a project. If your not one of them, take a step
back and let the community decide how they want to handle the code.
If the want to work together, we should support them. If the don't
want to work together and decide to fork it into three competing
projects, we should support them. If they want to hard code in
dependencies on any technology, we should support them. If they want
to rewrite it in COBOL, we should support them. They are the
community and we should support them.
-dain
/me crawls back under his flame proof rock
On Feb 15, 2006, at 4:11 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
> [trimmed individuals and pmc's from the cc: list]
>
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 03:22:23PM -0800, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
>> On Feb 15, 2006, at 3:09 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>> Sanjiva,
>>>
>>>> - Given the, um, strong feelings expressed by so many people about
>>>> this project, how about if we get the Incubator PMC to sponsor this
>>>> poddling?
>>>
>>> Agreed. That is what I said to the Geronimo PMC, as well. The
>>> Incubator PMC will sponsor the project.
>> ...
>> I know it doesn't mean much, but I personally would like to see this
>> as a Geronimo sponsored project. We are the ones that have taken the
>> licks over this for the past 2 weeks and would really like to work to
>> carry this through the full process.
>>
>> So to flip things around on you...
>>
>> There is no need for the Incubator PMC to sponsor. The Geronimo
>> PMC will sponsor the project.
>>
>> Thanks for your understanding.
>
> A number of folks here in the Incubator believe it is best to
> establish a community with no prior ties, and have repeated that on a
> number of occasions (including Sanjiva's and Noel's comments today).
> The general belief is that this will create a better community around
> the ASF's BPEL work.
>
> Part of the problem that I'm seeing is you use of "we" in your
> message. Who is "we"? And that leads to, who is "not we"? Why is there
> a partition? I believe this is one of the primary issues that is being
> dealt with right now, Dain. You are dividing BPEL workers into a "we"
> and "others" camp.
>
> Or, let's just say that was a random term to refer to the Geronimo
> project and you're not really seeing two groups. i.e. not fair of me
> to assign that way of thinking to you. Okay. So moving on: why is it
> important for this to be Geronimo sponsored? Why? Seriously. WTF does
> it matter?
>
> We've already said the IP clearance paperwork is the same no matter
> what. Great. Get that done and start working. When BPEL is ready to
> graduate, then we look at where it goes. Quite possibly Geronimo. But
> what does it matter that Geronimo is the sponsor? Why are you so keyed
> in on that?
>
> I can clearly see benefits with "absence of ties". I don't see the
> benefit of Geronimo sponsoring that you're seeing. And without that
> understanding, then I get to make up crazy reasons :-P
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> --
> Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
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Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
[trimmed individuals and pmc's from the cc: list]
On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 03:22:23PM -0800, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
> On Feb 15, 2006, at 3:09 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> >Sanjiva,
> >
> >>- Given the, um, strong feelings expressed by so many people about
> >>this project, how about if we get the Incubator PMC to sponsor this
> >>poddling?
> >
> >Agreed. That is what I said to the Geronimo PMC, as well. The
> >Incubator PMC will sponsor the project.
>...
> I know it doesn't mean much, but I personally would like to see this
> as a Geronimo sponsored project. We are the ones that have taken the
> licks over this for the past 2 weeks and would really like to work to
> carry this through the full process.
>
> So to flip things around on you...
>
> There is no need for the Incubator PMC to sponsor. The Geronimo
> PMC will sponsor the project.
>
> Thanks for your understanding.
A number of folks here in the Incubator believe it is best to
establish a community with no prior ties, and have repeated that on a
number of occasions (including Sanjiva's and Noel's comments today).
The general belief is that this will create a better community around
the ASF's BPEL work.
Part of the problem that I'm seeing is you use of "we" in your
message. Who is "we"? And that leads to, who is "not we"? Why is there
a partition? I believe this is one of the primary issues that is being
dealt with right now, Dain. You are dividing BPEL workers into a "we"
and "others" camp.
Or, let's just say that was a random term to refer to the Geronimo
project and you're not really seeing two groups. i.e. not fair of me
to assign that way of thinking to you. Okay. So moving on: why is it
important for this to be Geronimo sponsored? Why? Seriously. WTF does
it matter?
We've already said the IP clearance paperwork is the same no matter
what. Great. Get that done and start working. When BPEL is ready to
graduate, then we look at where it goes. Quite possibly Geronimo. But
what does it matter that Geronimo is the sponsor? Why are you so keyed
in on that?
I can clearly see benefits with "absence of ties". I don't see the
benefit of Geronimo sponsoring that you're seeing. And without that
understanding, then I get to make up crazy reasons :-P
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
[trimmed individuals and pmc's from the cc: list]
On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 03:22:23PM -0800, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
> On Feb 15, 2006, at 3:09 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> >Sanjiva,
> >
> >>- Given the, um, strong feelings expressed by so many people about
> >>this project, how about if we get the Incubator PMC to sponsor this
> >>poddling?
> >
> >Agreed. That is what I said to the Geronimo PMC, as well. The
> >Incubator PMC will sponsor the project.
>...
> I know it doesn't mean much, but I personally would like to see this
> as a Geronimo sponsored project. We are the ones that have taken the
> licks over this for the past 2 weeks and would really like to work to
> carry this through the full process.
>
> So to flip things around on you...
>
> There is no need for the Incubator PMC to sponsor. The Geronimo
> PMC will sponsor the project.
>
> Thanks for your understanding.
A number of folks here in the Incubator believe it is best to
establish a community with no prior ties, and have repeated that on a
number of occasions (including Sanjiva's and Noel's comments today).
The general belief is that this will create a better community around
the ASF's BPEL work.
Part of the problem that I'm seeing is you use of "we" in your
message. Who is "we"? And that leads to, who is "not we"? Why is there
a partition? I believe this is one of the primary issues that is being
dealt with right now, Dain. You are dividing BPEL workers into a "we"
and "others" camp.
Or, let's just say that was a random term to refer to the Geronimo
project and you're not really seeing two groups. i.e. not fair of me
to assign that way of thinking to you. Okay. So moving on: why is it
important for this to be Geronimo sponsored? Why? Seriously. WTF does
it matter?
We've already said the IP clearance paperwork is the same no matter
what. Great. Get that done and start working. When BPEL is ready to
graduate, then we look at where it goes. Quite possibly Geronimo. But
what does it matter that Geronimo is the sponsor? Why are you so keyed
in on that?
I can clearly see benefits with "absence of ties". I don't see the
benefit of Geronimo sponsoring that you're seeing. And without that
understanding, then I get to make up crazy reasons :-P
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com>.
Makes since. Thanks for spending the time to explain this to me.
This really helps.
Thanks,
-dain
On Feb 15, 2006, at 6:56 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Dain,
>
>> Since you brought this public, I'll post my response along with you
>> original email. I hope you don't mind...
>
> I don't, but you might have also included my reply. :-)
>
>> There is no need for the Incubator PMC to sponsor. The Geronimo
>> PMC will sponsor the project.
>
> As I had replied to you there, a need has been clearly indicated by
> sentiments expressed by people on the Incubator list. That has been
> reiterated today.
>
> The Incubator must foster collaborative development. In this case
> that
> means providing what will be perceived as a neutral playing ground,
> where no
> one feels disadvantaged. No one should ever feel disadvantaged in
> an ASF
> project. The fact that Geronimo's involvement is driving much of the
> contention is as disturbing to me as to you, and is important to
> resolve,
> but is also outside the scope of this discussion.
>
> It is entirely unfair to Sybase and the other contributors to pitch
> them
> into the middle of whatever ancillary issues need resolving, and so
> that's
> going to end now by the simple expedient of having the project
> sponsored by
> the Incubator.
>
> Although I would vastly prefer a single collaborating community, we
> could
> create seperate projects for Ode and PXE. However, Bill Flood just
> made it
> quite clear to me that he would prefer to have a single project
> combining
> the best of each contributions, and that appears to be Intalio's
> preference
> as well, so that's what we'll do, and see where it goes.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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RE: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Dain,
> Since you brought this public, I'll post my response along with you
> original email. I hope you don't mind...
I don't, but you might have also included my reply. :-)
> There is no need for the Incubator PMC to sponsor. The Geronimo
> PMC will sponsor the project.
As I had replied to you there, a need has been clearly indicated by
sentiments expressed by people on the Incubator list. That has been
reiterated today.
The Incubator must foster collaborative development. In this case that
means providing what will be perceived as a neutral playing ground, where no
one feels disadvantaged. No one should ever feel disadvantaged in an ASF
project. The fact that Geronimo's involvement is driving much of the
contention is as disturbing to me as to you, and is important to resolve,
but is also outside the scope of this discussion.
It is entirely unfair to Sybase and the other contributors to pitch them
into the middle of whatever ancillary issues need resolving, and so that's
going to end now by the simple expedient of having the project sponsored by
the Incubator.
Although I would vastly prefer a single collaborating community, we could
create seperate projects for Ode and PXE. However, Bill Flood just made it
quite clear to me that he would prefer to have a single project combining
the best of each contributions, and that appears to be Intalio's preference
as well, so that's what we'll do, and see where it goes.
--- Noel
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Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com>.
On Feb 15, 2006, at 3:09 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Sanjiva,
>
>> - Given the, um, strong feelings expressed by so many people about
>> this
>> project, how about if we get the Incubator PMC to sponsor this
>> poddling?
>
> Agreed. That is what I said to the Geronimo PMC, as well. The
> Incubator
> PMC will sponsor the project.
Since you brought this public, I'll post my response along with you
original email. I hope you don't mind...
On Feb 15, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> No need for this vote. The Incubator PMC will sponsor the project.
>
> --- Noel
I know it doesn't mean much, but I personally would like to see this
as a Geronimo sponsored project. We are the ones that have taken the
licks over this for the past 2 weeks and would really like to work to
carry this through the full process.
So to flip things around on you...
There is no need for the Incubator PMC to sponsor. The Geronimo
PMC will sponsor the project.
Thanks for your understanding.
-dain
Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com>.
On Feb 15, 2006, at 3:09 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Sanjiva,
>
>> - Given the, um, strong feelings expressed by so many people about
>> this
>> project, how about if we get the Incubator PMC to sponsor this
>> poddling?
>
> Agreed. That is what I said to the Geronimo PMC, as well. The
> Incubator
> PMC will sponsor the project.
Since you brought this public, I'll post my response along with you
original email. I hope you don't mind...
On Feb 15, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> No need for this vote. The Incubator PMC will sponsor the project.
>
> --- Noel
I know it doesn't mean much, but I personally would like to see this
as a Geronimo sponsored project. We are the ones that have taken the
licks over this for the past 2 weeks and would really like to work to
carry this through the full process.
So to flip things around on you...
There is no need for the Incubator PMC to sponsor. The Geronimo
PMC will sponsor the project.
Thanks for your understanding.
-dain
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RE: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Sanjiva,
> - Given the, um, strong feelings expressed by so many people about this
> project, how about if we get the Incubator PMC to sponsor this poddling?
Agreed. That is what I said to the Geronimo PMC, as well. The Incubator
PMC will sponsor the project.
--- Noel
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RE: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Sanjiva,
> - Given the, um, strong feelings expressed by so many people about this
> project, how about if we get the Incubator PMC to sponsor this poddling?
Agreed. That is what I said to the Geronimo PMC, as well. The Incubator
PMC will sponsor the project.
--- Noel
Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Wed, 2006-02-15 at 15:56 +0000, James Strachan wrote:
> Dims & Sanjiva
>
> Given your arguments that the Sybase BPEL donation should be in a new
> podling rather than part of ServiceMix - I wonder if you'd like to
> join us in the ODE proposal then we can have a united Apache
> community with folks from Agila, Geronimo, ServiceMix, & WS involved
> to insure plenty of cross pollination.
Wow I feel "special" to get asked liked this ;-).
I was going to ask to join anyway .. so I'll be happy to. However, I
would like to request some changes:
- Under warning signs, in the "Homogenous developers" category it lists
developers from Sybase, IBM & LogicBlaze. Is it the case that the
*current* codebase has contribs from all these companies? If not I
believe the spirit of the question is about the current codebase, not
about the group that'll get it thru incubation. So please indicate who
wrote the current codebase (which I believe is all Synbase).
- The initial committers list is very long. I'm on service-mix dev and I
see only 2-3 people committing (and little or no discussion; am I
missing some stuff??). Can we try to list people who are really going to
write code for this? It doesn't make sense to list *23* committers
unless they will really write code. We can always bring people on board
as they start contributing. If all these people are really so hot to
mess with a BPEL impl, damn, I should feel really good about BPEL ;-).
- Given the, um, strong feelings expressed by so many people about this
project, how about if we get the Incubator PMC to sponsor this poddling?
I'm a member of that PMC and I'll be happy to do it. That allows the
poddling to decide, upon graduation, its final resting place: Geronimo,
new TLP or elsewhere. (NO, I'm not even suggesting it go to WS .. as I
said earlier, WS is too damned crowded already.) I see *nothing* to be
gained by saying its going to be part of Geronimo at this point; so you
see my bias already: go for its own TLP. However, if that appears to be
the right thing upon graduation, then so be it.
Note that this does not preclude ServiceMix, or *anyone else* from
embracing and extending Apache Ode and living happily ever after. In
fact, its *much better* for Apache Ode to be on its own because then its
likely to be pluggable to more container frameworks and not just
Geronimo/ServiceMix.
Bye,
Sanjiva.
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Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@gmail.com>.
On 15 Feb 2006, at 16:54, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> James,
>
> Thanks for taking the first step. Yes, please add me in as a mentor.
> Here's some feedback first about the proposal before we take the next
> step.
>
> - AFAIK, Geronimo PMC has not voted on this proposal.
We kinda voted already on G-PMC but the new proposal changes things
slightly (being a new podling) so to clear things up I've called
another vote.
> - Can we please put out a call to other Open source BPEL engines to
> join us with their contributions? (ala, Synapse).
Sure, we're open to other contributions and contributors from
wherever; they can arrive at any time - lets starting incubating
> - Can we please add people in a phased manner as committers? based on
> their patches/energy on the list? (ala, Harmony)
All the folks on the committer list are folks who've expressed
interest in working on the code. The only non-apache committers so
far are the Sybase folks who've written all the code being
contributed; the rest are already proven committers in Agila,
Geronimo or ServiceMix
James
-------
http://radio.weblogs.com/0112098/
Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@gmail.com>.
On 15 Feb 2006, at 16:54, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> James,
>
> Thanks for taking the first step. Yes, please add me in as a mentor.
> Here's some feedback first about the proposal before we take the next
> step.
>
> - AFAIK, Geronimo PMC has not voted on this proposal.
We kinda voted already on G-PMC but the new proposal changes things
slightly (being a new podling) so to clear things up I've called
another vote.
> - Can we please put out a call to other Open source BPEL engines to
> join us with their contributions? (ala, Synapse).
Sure, we're open to other contributions and contributors from
wherever; they can arrive at any time - lets starting incubating
> - Can we please add people in a phased manner as committers? based on
> their patches/energy on the list? (ala, Harmony)
All the folks on the committer list are folks who've expressed
interest in working on the code. The only non-apache committers so
far are the Sybase folks who've written all the code being
contributed; the rest are already proven committers in Agila,
Geronimo or ServiceMix
James
-------
http://radio.weblogs.com/0112098/
Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@gmail.com>.
On 15 Feb 2006, at 16:54, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> James,
>
> Thanks for taking the first step. Yes, please add me in as a mentor.
> Here's some feedback first about the proposal before we take the next
> step.
>
> - AFAIK, Geronimo PMC has not voted on this proposal.
We kinda voted already on G-PMC but the new proposal changes things
slightly (being a new podling) so to clear things up I've called
another vote.
> - Can we please put out a call to other Open source BPEL engines to
> join us with their contributions? (ala, Synapse).
Sure, we're open to other contributions and contributors from
wherever; they can arrive at any time - lets starting incubating
> - Can we please add people in a phased manner as committers? based on
> their patches/energy on the list? (ala, Harmony)
All the folks on the committer list are folks who've expressed
interest in working on the code. The only non-apache committers so
far are the Sybase folks who've written all the code being
contributed; the rest are already proven committers in Agila,
Geronimo or ServiceMix
James
-------
http://radio.weblogs.com/0112098/
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To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
James,
Thanks for taking the first step. Yes, please add me in as a mentor.
Here's some feedback first about the proposal before we take the next
step.
- AFAIK, Geronimo PMC has not voted on this proposal. So can we please
get Incubator PMC to sponsor this?
- Can we please put out a call to other Open source BPEL engines to
join us with their contributions? (ala, Synapse).
- Can we please add people in a phased manner as committers? based on
their patches/energy on the list? (ala, Harmony)
Thanks,
dims
On 2/15/06, James Strachan <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dims & Sanjiva
>
> Given your arguments that the Sybase BPEL donation should be in a new
> podling rather than part of ServiceMix - I wonder if you'd like to
> join us in the ODE proposal then we can have a united Apache
> community with folks from Agila, Geronimo, ServiceMix, & WS involved
> to insure plenty of cross pollination.
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OdeProposa
>
> James
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> > From: "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>
> > Date: 14 February 2006 07:35:33 GMT
> > To: dev@geronimo.apache.org, general@incubator.apache.org,
> > servicemix-dev@geronimo.apache.org
> > Subject: Ode Proposal
> > Reply-To: general@incubator.apache.org
> >
> > Ok. Here's the proposal http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/
> > OdeProposal. Please feel free to comment.
> >
> > We need some more mentors. Anyone?
>
>
> James
> -------
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0112098/
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
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Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Wed, 2006-02-15 at 15:56 +0000, James Strachan wrote:
> Dims & Sanjiva
>
> Given your arguments that the Sybase BPEL donation should be in a new
> podling rather than part of ServiceMix - I wonder if you'd like to
> join us in the ODE proposal then we can have a united Apache
> community with folks from Agila, Geronimo, ServiceMix, & WS involved
> to insure plenty of cross pollination.
Wow I feel "special" to get asked liked this ;-).
I was going to ask to join anyway .. so I'll be happy to. However, I
would like to request some changes:
- Under warning signs, in the "Homogenous developers" category it lists
developers from Sybase, IBM & LogicBlaze. Is it the case that the
*current* codebase has contribs from all these companies? If not I
believe the spirit of the question is about the current codebase, not
about the group that'll get it thru incubation. So please indicate who
wrote the current codebase (which I believe is all Synbase).
- The initial committers list is very long. I'm on service-mix dev and I
see only 2-3 people committing (and little or no discussion; am I
missing some stuff??). Can we try to list people who are really going to
write code for this? It doesn't make sense to list *23* committers
unless they will really write code. We can always bring people on board
as they start contributing. If all these people are really so hot to
mess with a BPEL impl, damn, I should feel really good about BPEL ;-).
- Given the, um, strong feelings expressed by so many people about this
project, how about if we get the Incubator PMC to sponsor this poddling?
I'm a member of that PMC and I'll be happy to do it. That allows the
poddling to decide, upon graduation, its final resting place: Geronimo,
new TLP or elsewhere. (NO, I'm not even suggesting it go to WS .. as I
said earlier, WS is too damned crowded already.) I see *nothing* to be
gained by saying its going to be part of Geronimo at this point; so you
see my bias already: go for its own TLP. However, if that appears to be
the right thing upon graduation, then so be it.
Note that this does not preclude ServiceMix, or *anyone else* from
embracing and extending Apache Ode and living happily ever after. In
fact, its *much better* for Apache Ode to be on its own because then its
likely to be pluggable to more container frameworks and not just
Geronimo/ServiceMix.
Bye,
Sanjiva.
Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
James,
Thanks for taking the first step. Yes, please add me in as a mentor.
Here's some feedback first about the proposal before we take the next
step.
- AFAIK, Geronimo PMC has not voted on this proposal. So can we please
get Incubator PMC to sponsor this?
- Can we please put out a call to other Open source BPEL engines to
join us with their contributions? (ala, Synapse).
- Can we please add people in a phased manner as committers? based on
their patches/energy on the list? (ala, Harmony)
Thanks,
dims
On 2/15/06, James Strachan <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dims & Sanjiva
>
> Given your arguments that the Sybase BPEL donation should be in a new
> podling rather than part of ServiceMix - I wonder if you'd like to
> join us in the ODE proposal then we can have a united Apache
> community with folks from Agila, Geronimo, ServiceMix, & WS involved
> to insure plenty of cross pollination.
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OdeProposa
>
> James
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> > From: "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>
> > Date: 14 February 2006 07:35:33 GMT
> > To: dev@geronimo.apache.org, general@incubator.apache.org,
> > servicemix-dev@geronimo.apache.org
> > Subject: Ode Proposal
> > Reply-To: general@incubator.apache.org
> >
> > Ok. Here's the proposal http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/
> > OdeProposal. Please feel free to comment.
> >
> > We need some more mentors. Anyone?
>
>
> James
> -------
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0112098/
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Wed, 2006-02-15 at 15:56 +0000, James Strachan wrote:
> Dims & Sanjiva
>
> Given your arguments that the Sybase BPEL donation should be in a new
> podling rather than part of ServiceMix - I wonder if you'd like to
> join us in the ODE proposal then we can have a united Apache
> community with folks from Agila, Geronimo, ServiceMix, & WS involved
> to insure plenty of cross pollination.
Wow I feel "special" to get asked liked this ;-).
I was going to ask to join anyway .. so I'll be happy to. However, I
would like to request some changes:
- Under warning signs, in the "Homogenous developers" category it lists
developers from Sybase, IBM & LogicBlaze. Is it the case that the
*current* codebase has contribs from all these companies? If not I
believe the spirit of the question is about the current codebase, not
about the group that'll get it thru incubation. So please indicate who
wrote the current codebase (which I believe is all Synbase).
- The initial committers list is very long. I'm on service-mix dev and I
see only 2-3 people committing (and little or no discussion; am I
missing some stuff??). Can we try to list people who are really going to
write code for this? It doesn't make sense to list *23* committers
unless they will really write code. We can always bring people on board
as they start contributing. If all these people are really so hot to
mess with a BPEL impl, damn, I should feel really good about BPEL ;-).
- Given the, um, strong feelings expressed by so many people about this
project, how about if we get the Incubator PMC to sponsor this poddling?
I'm a member of that PMC and I'll be happy to do it. That allows the
poddling to decide, upon graduation, its final resting place: Geronimo,
new TLP or elsewhere. (NO, I'm not even suggesting it go to WS .. as I
said earlier, WS is too damned crowded already.) I see *nothing* to be
gained by saying its going to be part of Geronimo at this point; so you
see my bias already: go for its own TLP. However, if that appears to be
the right thing upon graduation, then so be it.
Note that this does not preclude ServiceMix, or *anyone else* from
embracing and extending Apache Ode and living happily ever after. In
fact, its *much better* for Apache Ode to be on its own because then its
likely to be pluggable to more container frameworks and not just
Geronimo/ServiceMix.
Bye,
Sanjiva.