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Posted to user@fineract.apache.org by Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org> on 2018/10/10 15:59:48 UTC
Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on directing
appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing lists, it got me
thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding merit or
committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the project. In
that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving out non-technical
members of the community who might only be subscribed to the user list when
we treat dev as the primary list for all communications (community-related,
etc whether they're technical or not).
I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want to
cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are some ways
to address this?
One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't
think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the fact that
we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations happen on
dev
Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary list
and any public community-related matter or announcement will come through
there and that everyone should be subscribed to that list to not miss any
key information?
Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both lists if
it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and ensures
everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the discussion as
input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions based on
on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that we have
a larger user-facing community than most more
technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
Thanks,
Ed
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
Hey all,
An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
aware of this as well:
https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the Fineract
project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
Best Regards,
Myrle
Committer, Apache Fineract
--
*Ed Cable*
President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
*Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
<http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
Hey all,
We already have a hipchat channel: https://apache.hipchat.com/chat/room/4661218
I will not go to a WhatsApp group for Fineract for the following reasons:
* Splitting my communications across 9+ communication applications has
made it near impossible for me to track all of the questions asked of
me. I'm dropping balls simply because I forget which direction they
are thrown at me from.
* WhatsApp requires those who use it to upload all of their contacts
to the WhatsApp servers. I will not place this requirement on people
who wish to communicate with me about Fineract.
* Although I do have WhatsApp installed, the app does not offer a
sufficiently finely granular control over notifications for my
purposes. Messages to muted groups are still counted in the new
message count on the "badge notifications". This makes it impossible
for me to distinguish between urgent messages and non-urgent messages,
and has lead me to remove WhatsApp's permissions to send me any
notifications at all.
* It is important to me to concentrate on one person to communicate
with at a time, and WhatsApp and many other instant communication
applications do not make appropriate use of my attention. They make
me less effective at most things that I want to do by constantly
interrupting me. I incur a high attention switching cost in that
environment, and also risk addiction to that little dopamine kick that
every communication gives you.
* Mark T. is right: a WhatsApp group is not archived on Apache
infrastructure. I can't create a link to messages there when explain
the history of a decision.
Best Regards,
Myrle
On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 1:35 PM Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Repeating (with minor edits for this context) what I have said on
> similar topics on other threads:
>
> I don't think a WhatsApp group is a good idea.
>
> The criteria that the ASF looks for in communication
> channels used by projects are (in no particular order):
>
> - open to all
> - asynchronous
> - available off-line
> - full history
> - searchable
> - archived on ASF controlled systems
> - low bandwidth / minimal system requirements
>
> E-mail may seem a little 'old school' at times but it is one of the few
> technologies that meets all of the above. Which is why most of our
> systems are configured to echo stuff back to the relevant mailing list.
>
> These days I'm used to an always on internet connections with speeds in
> the 10s of megabits where I don't need to worry about the cost (even
> when I am out and about) but it is worth remembering that not everyone
> is in that position. It wasn't really that long ago that I could
> sometimes be found working on Apache projects via a 9600 bits per second
> dial-up connection that I paid for by the second. It was perfectly
> possible for me to follow what was going on by connecting for a few
> minutes every couple of hours, syncing my email, making a few commits if
> I had anything to commit and then disconnecting and continuing to work
> off-line. If a large proportion of communication had happened via a
> WhatsApp like interface there is no way I would have been able to follow
> the project.
>
> I accept that there are times were using a 'real-time' communication
> channel is more efficient. However, it excludes every member of the
> community that isn't participating in that channel at that point in
> time. The default position at the ASF is that it is better for
> communication to be a little less efficient for a few in order for the
> entire community to participate.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mark
>
>
> On 13/10/18 17:23, Javier Borkenztain wrote:
> > Hi all, +1 on one single list with tags (there are at least 6 lists )
> >
> > For the non-technical contributors like me, that most of my contribution to
> > the community happens "out of the list", It will be useful to have only one
> > place of reference.
> >
> > Also, I think we need a Whatsapp group, I am a member of several Whatsapp
> > groups on Bitcoin and Blockchain, and they are much more efficient and fast
> > to communicate non-technical issues, I've created the group, you can join
> > it here: https://chat.whatsapp.com/BVsYOq5eOxqLrvbWnQ3Dck
> >
> > I really enjoyed the presentation
> > <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/> James
> > Dailey shared a couple of months ago, the message that we are on the "Open
> > Source Age" is as powerful and meaningful as ever.
> >
> > More and more Fintechs, Financial Institutions and Banks are joining our
> > community and they are our partners and community members, as we grow, we
> > need to welcome them, I here propose we can announce each new partner that
> > joins our global community, I think Whatsapp group is great for that and
> > the community to grow.
> >
> > We are changing an entire industry as a community because the community
> > outperforms the individuals.
> >
> > Let's keep rocking!!
> > Javier
> >
> > El mié., 10 oct. 2018 a las 13:00, Ed Cable (<ed...@mifos.org>) escribió:
> >
> >> Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on directing
> >> appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing lists, it got me
> >> thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
> >>
> >> We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding merit or
> >> committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the project. In
> >> that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving out non-technical
> >> members of the community who might only be subscribed to the user list when
> >> we treat dev as the primary list for all communications (community-related,
> >> etc whether they're technical or not).
> >>
> >> I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want to
> >> cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are some ways
> >> to address this?
> >>
> >> One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't
> >> think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
> >> distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
> >>
> >> I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the fact that
> >> we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations happen on
> >> dev
> >>
> >> Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary list
> >> and any public community-related matter or announcement will come through
> >> there and that everyone should be subscribed to that list to not miss any
> >> key information?
> >>
> >> Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both lists if
> >> it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and ensures
> >> everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the discussion as
> >> input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >>
> >> CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions based on
> >> on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that we have
> >> a larger user-facing community than most more
> >> technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Ed
> >>
> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> >> From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> >> Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
> >> Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
> >> To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hey all,
> >>
> >> An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
> >> dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
> >> aware of this as well:
> >>
> >> https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
> >>
> >> In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the Fineract
> >> project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
> >> dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
> >> private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
> >> will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >> Myrle
> >> Committer, Apache Fineract
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> *Ed Cable*
> >> President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
> >> edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
> >>
> >> *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
> >> <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
> >>
> >
>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
Hey all,
We already have a hipchat channel: https://apache.hipchat.com/chat/room/4661218
I will not go to a WhatsApp group for Fineract for the following reasons:
* Splitting my communications across 9+ communication applications has
made it near impossible for me to track all of the questions asked of
me. I'm dropping balls simply because I forget which direction they
are thrown at me from.
* WhatsApp requires those who use it to upload all of their contacts
to the WhatsApp servers. I will not place this requirement on people
who wish to communicate with me about Fineract.
* Although I do have WhatsApp installed, the app does not offer a
sufficiently finely granular control over notifications for my
purposes. Messages to muted groups are still counted in the new
message count on the "badge notifications". This makes it impossible
for me to distinguish between urgent messages and non-urgent messages,
and has lead me to remove WhatsApp's permissions to send me any
notifications at all.
* It is important to me to concentrate on one person to communicate
with at a time, and WhatsApp and many other instant communication
applications do not make appropriate use of my attention. They make
me less effective at most things that I want to do by constantly
interrupting me. I incur a high attention switching cost in that
environment, and also risk addiction to that little dopamine kick that
every communication gives you.
* Mark T. is right: a WhatsApp group is not archived on Apache
infrastructure. I can't create a link to messages there when explain
the history of a decision.
Best Regards,
Myrle
On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 1:35 PM Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Repeating (with minor edits for this context) what I have said on
> similar topics on other threads:
>
> I don't think a WhatsApp group is a good idea.
>
> The criteria that the ASF looks for in communication
> channels used by projects are (in no particular order):
>
> - open to all
> - asynchronous
> - available off-line
> - full history
> - searchable
> - archived on ASF controlled systems
> - low bandwidth / minimal system requirements
>
> E-mail may seem a little 'old school' at times but it is one of the few
> technologies that meets all of the above. Which is why most of our
> systems are configured to echo stuff back to the relevant mailing list.
>
> These days I'm used to an always on internet connections with speeds in
> the 10s of megabits where I don't need to worry about the cost (even
> when I am out and about) but it is worth remembering that not everyone
> is in that position. It wasn't really that long ago that I could
> sometimes be found working on Apache projects via a 9600 bits per second
> dial-up connection that I paid for by the second. It was perfectly
> possible for me to follow what was going on by connecting for a few
> minutes every couple of hours, syncing my email, making a few commits if
> I had anything to commit and then disconnecting and continuing to work
> off-line. If a large proportion of communication had happened via a
> WhatsApp like interface there is no way I would have been able to follow
> the project.
>
> I accept that there are times were using a 'real-time' communication
> channel is more efficient. However, it excludes every member of the
> community that isn't participating in that channel at that point in
> time. The default position at the ASF is that it is better for
> communication to be a little less efficient for a few in order for the
> entire community to participate.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mark
>
>
> On 13/10/18 17:23, Javier Borkenztain wrote:
> > Hi all, +1 on one single list with tags (there are at least 6 lists )
> >
> > For the non-technical contributors like me, that most of my contribution to
> > the community happens "out of the list", It will be useful to have only one
> > place of reference.
> >
> > Also, I think we need a Whatsapp group, I am a member of several Whatsapp
> > groups on Bitcoin and Blockchain, and they are much more efficient and fast
> > to communicate non-technical issues, I've created the group, you can join
> > it here: https://chat.whatsapp.com/BVsYOq5eOxqLrvbWnQ3Dck
> >
> > I really enjoyed the presentation
> > <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/> James
> > Dailey shared a couple of months ago, the message that we are on the "Open
> > Source Age" is as powerful and meaningful as ever.
> >
> > More and more Fintechs, Financial Institutions and Banks are joining our
> > community and they are our partners and community members, as we grow, we
> > need to welcome them, I here propose we can announce each new partner that
> > joins our global community, I think Whatsapp group is great for that and
> > the community to grow.
> >
> > We are changing an entire industry as a community because the community
> > outperforms the individuals.
> >
> > Let's keep rocking!!
> > Javier
> >
> > El mié., 10 oct. 2018 a las 13:00, Ed Cable (<ed...@mifos.org>) escribió:
> >
> >> Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on directing
> >> appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing lists, it got me
> >> thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
> >>
> >> We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding merit or
> >> committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the project. In
> >> that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving out non-technical
> >> members of the community who might only be subscribed to the user list when
> >> we treat dev as the primary list for all communications (community-related,
> >> etc whether they're technical or not).
> >>
> >> I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want to
> >> cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are some ways
> >> to address this?
> >>
> >> One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't
> >> think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
> >> distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
> >>
> >> I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the fact that
> >> we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations happen on
> >> dev
> >>
> >> Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary list
> >> and any public community-related matter or announcement will come through
> >> there and that everyone should be subscribed to that list to not miss any
> >> key information?
> >>
> >> Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both lists if
> >> it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and ensures
> >> everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the discussion as
> >> input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >>
> >> CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions based on
> >> on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that we have
> >> a larger user-facing community than most more
> >> technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Ed
> >>
> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> >> From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> >> Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
> >> Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
> >> To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hey all,
> >>
> >> An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
> >> dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
> >> aware of this as well:
> >>
> >> https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
> >>
> >> In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the Fineract
> >> project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
> >> dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
> >> private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
> >> will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >> Myrle
> >> Committer, Apache Fineract
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> *Ed Cable*
> >> President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
> >> edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
> >>
> >> *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
> >> <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
> >>
> >
>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
Hey all,
We already have a hipchat channel: https://apache.hipchat.com/chat/room/4661218
I will not go to a WhatsApp group for Fineract for the following reasons:
* Splitting my communications across 9+ communication applications has
made it near impossible for me to track all of the questions asked of
me. I'm dropping balls simply because I forget which direction they
are thrown at me from.
* WhatsApp requires those who use it to upload all of their contacts
to the WhatsApp servers. I will not place this requirement on people
who wish to communicate with me about Fineract.
* Although I do have WhatsApp installed, the app does not offer a
sufficiently finely granular control over notifications for my
purposes. Messages to muted groups are still counted in the new
message count on the "badge notifications". This makes it impossible
for me to distinguish between urgent messages and non-urgent messages,
and has lead me to remove WhatsApp's permissions to send me any
notifications at all.
* It is important to me to concentrate on one person to communicate
with at a time, and WhatsApp and many other instant communication
applications do not make appropriate use of my attention. They make
me less effective at most things that I want to do by constantly
interrupting me. I incur a high attention switching cost in that
environment, and also risk addiction to that little dopamine kick that
every communication gives you.
* Mark T. is right: a WhatsApp group is not archived on Apache
infrastructure. I can't create a link to messages there when explain
the history of a decision.
Best Regards,
Myrle
On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 1:35 PM Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Repeating (with minor edits for this context) what I have said on
> similar topics on other threads:
>
> I don't think a WhatsApp group is a good idea.
>
> The criteria that the ASF looks for in communication
> channels used by projects are (in no particular order):
>
> - open to all
> - asynchronous
> - available off-line
> - full history
> - searchable
> - archived on ASF controlled systems
> - low bandwidth / minimal system requirements
>
> E-mail may seem a little 'old school' at times but it is one of the few
> technologies that meets all of the above. Which is why most of our
> systems are configured to echo stuff back to the relevant mailing list.
>
> These days I'm used to an always on internet connections with speeds in
> the 10s of megabits where I don't need to worry about the cost (even
> when I am out and about) but it is worth remembering that not everyone
> is in that position. It wasn't really that long ago that I could
> sometimes be found working on Apache projects via a 9600 bits per second
> dial-up connection that I paid for by the second. It was perfectly
> possible for me to follow what was going on by connecting for a few
> minutes every couple of hours, syncing my email, making a few commits if
> I had anything to commit and then disconnecting and continuing to work
> off-line. If a large proportion of communication had happened via a
> WhatsApp like interface there is no way I would have been able to follow
> the project.
>
> I accept that there are times were using a 'real-time' communication
> channel is more efficient. However, it excludes every member of the
> community that isn't participating in that channel at that point in
> time. The default position at the ASF is that it is better for
> communication to be a little less efficient for a few in order for the
> entire community to participate.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mark
>
>
> On 13/10/18 17:23, Javier Borkenztain wrote:
> > Hi all, +1 on one single list with tags (there are at least 6 lists )
> >
> > For the non-technical contributors like me, that most of my contribution to
> > the community happens "out of the list", It will be useful to have only one
> > place of reference.
> >
> > Also, I think we need a Whatsapp group, I am a member of several Whatsapp
> > groups on Bitcoin and Blockchain, and they are much more efficient and fast
> > to communicate non-technical issues, I've created the group, you can join
> > it here: https://chat.whatsapp.com/BVsYOq5eOxqLrvbWnQ3Dck
> >
> > I really enjoyed the presentation
> > <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/> James
> > Dailey shared a couple of months ago, the message that we are on the "Open
> > Source Age" is as powerful and meaningful as ever.
> >
> > More and more Fintechs, Financial Institutions and Banks are joining our
> > community and they are our partners and community members, as we grow, we
> > need to welcome them, I here propose we can announce each new partner that
> > joins our global community, I think Whatsapp group is great for that and
> > the community to grow.
> >
> > We are changing an entire industry as a community because the community
> > outperforms the individuals.
> >
> > Let's keep rocking!!
> > Javier
> >
> > El mié., 10 oct. 2018 a las 13:00, Ed Cable (<ed...@mifos.org>) escribió:
> >
> >> Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on directing
> >> appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing lists, it got me
> >> thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
> >>
> >> We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding merit or
> >> committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the project. In
> >> that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving out non-technical
> >> members of the community who might only be subscribed to the user list when
> >> we treat dev as the primary list for all communications (community-related,
> >> etc whether they're technical or not).
> >>
> >> I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want to
> >> cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are some ways
> >> to address this?
> >>
> >> One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't
> >> think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
> >> distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
> >>
> >> I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the fact that
> >> we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations happen on
> >> dev
> >>
> >> Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary list
> >> and any public community-related matter or announcement will come through
> >> there and that everyone should be subscribed to that list to not miss any
> >> key information?
> >>
> >> Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both lists if
> >> it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and ensures
> >> everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the discussion as
> >> input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >>
> >> CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions based on
> >> on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that we have
> >> a larger user-facing community than most more
> >> technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Ed
> >>
> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> >> From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> >> Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
> >> Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
> >> To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hey all,
> >>
> >> An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
> >> dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
> >> aware of this as well:
> >>
> >> https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
> >>
> >> In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the Fineract
> >> project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
> >> dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
> >> private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
> >> will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >> Myrle
> >> Committer, Apache Fineract
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> *Ed Cable*
> >> President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
> >> edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
> >>
> >> *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
> >> <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
> >>
> >
>
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Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
Repeating (with minor edits for this context) what I have said on
similar topics on other threads:
I don't think a WhatsApp group is a good idea.
The criteria that the ASF looks for in communication
channels used by projects are (in no particular order):
- open to all
- asynchronous
- available off-line
- full history
- searchable
- archived on ASF controlled systems
- low bandwidth / minimal system requirements
E-mail may seem a little 'old school' at times but it is one of the few
technologies that meets all of the above. Which is why most of our
systems are configured to echo stuff back to the relevant mailing list.
These days I'm used to an always on internet connections with speeds in
the 10s of megabits where I don't need to worry about the cost (even
when I am out and about) but it is worth remembering that not everyone
is in that position. It wasn't really that long ago that I could
sometimes be found working on Apache projects via a 9600 bits per second
dial-up connection that I paid for by the second. It was perfectly
possible for me to follow what was going on by connecting for a few
minutes every couple of hours, syncing my email, making a few commits if
I had anything to commit and then disconnecting and continuing to work
off-line. If a large proportion of communication had happened via a
WhatsApp like interface there is no way I would have been able to follow
the project.
I accept that there are times were using a 'real-time' communication
channel is more efficient. However, it excludes every member of the
community that isn't participating in that channel at that point in
time. The default position at the ASF is that it is better for
communication to be a little less efficient for a few in order for the
entire community to participate.
Cheers,
Mark
On 13/10/18 17:23, Javier Borkenztain wrote:
> Hi all, +1 on one single list with tags (there are at least 6 lists 😶)
>
> For the non-technical contributors like me, that most of my contribution to
> the community happens "out of the list", It will be useful to have only one
> place of reference.
>
> Also, I think we need a Whatsapp group, I am a member of several Whatsapp
> groups on Bitcoin and Blockchain, and they are much more efficient and fast
> to communicate non-technical issues, I've created the group, you can join
> it here: https://chat.whatsapp.com/BVsYOq5eOxqLrvbWnQ3Dck
>
> I really enjoyed the presentation
> <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/> James
> Dailey shared a couple of months ago, the message that we are on the "Open
> Source Age" is as powerful and meaningful as ever.
>
> More and more Fintechs, Financial Institutions and Banks are joining our
> community and they are our partners and community members, as we grow, we
> need to welcome them, I here propose we can announce each new partner that
> joins our global community, I think Whatsapp group is great for that and
> the community to grow.
>
> We are changing an entire industry as a community because the community
> outperforms the individuals.
>
> Let's keep rocking!!
> Javier
>
> El mié., 10 oct. 2018 a las 13:00, Ed Cable (<ed...@mifos.org>) escribió:
>
>> Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on directing
>> appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing lists, it got me
>> thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
>>
>> We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding merit or
>> committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the project. In
>> that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving out non-technical
>> members of the community who might only be subscribed to the user list when
>> we treat dev as the primary list for all communications (community-related,
>> etc whether they're technical or not).
>>
>> I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want to
>> cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are some ways
>> to address this?
>>
>> One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't
>> think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
>> distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
>>
>> I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the fact that
>> we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations happen on
>> dev
>>
>> Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary list
>> and any public community-related matter or announcement will come through
>> there and that everyone should be subscribed to that list to not miss any
>> key information?
>>
>> Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both lists if
>> it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and ensures
>> everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the discussion as
>> input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
>>
>> CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions based on
>> on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that we have
>> a larger user-facing community than most more
>> technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
>> Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
>> Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
>> To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
>>
>>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
>> dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
>> aware of this as well:
>>
>> https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
>>
>> In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the Fineract
>> project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
>> dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
>> private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
>> will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Myrle
>> Committer, Apache Fineract
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Ed Cable*
>> President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
>> edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
>>
>> *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
>> <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
>>
>
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Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org>.
Javier,
Thanks for the suggestion about a WhatsApp group - I agree that a
user-friendly more real-time chat tool is a nice complement to mailing
lists but by no means a replacement. I agree with all the feedback shared
by Mark and Myrle and don't really think WhatsApp might be the most ideal
tool even for a real-time chat namely for a lot of the reasons Myrle
suggested - I also think that for it to both be an effective tool for users
and developers looking to collaborate it needs to have some of the
integrations with Github, code formatting, etc. that tools like Hipchat,
Slack, Gitter already have.
As Myrle said, for the Apache Fineract community, HipChat exists and for
Mifos communities, we have our Gitter chat (which we continue to evaluate
versus options like Slack and Zulip)
While this is only related to the Mifos community, one thing that we are
exploring (and it's in the spirit of making a more user-friendly and
engaging user experience) is looking at an option like Discourse to replace
the Mifos Mailing lists and our Q&A tool. I believe it ticks off all the
boxes listed by Mark but also is more in-line with the user experience
around chat - it can provide mailing list, forum, Q & A/gamification, chat
features all in one.
See https://www.discourse.org/features
At the GSOC mentor summit, Yaw from Open Data Kit had some wonderful
feedback about their experiences with Discourse. You can see why they
switched at
https://opendatakit.org/2017/06/how-to-get-started-on-the-odk-forum/ and
see their implementation at https://forum.opendatakit.org/
On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 7:04 AM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy> wrote:
> Thanks all for your comments, there are strong arguments against Whatsapp,
> and it seems that the biggest one is that cannot be stored on ASF servers
> (for now?).
>
> Hipchat is good, but Whatsapp is ubiquitous and for many of us, number 1
> messaging and communication tool.
>
> We just need to lower the entry barriers for the non-technical
> collaborators to be able to collaborate and share what are they doing, how
> are they making this community better and bigger.
>
> Thanks again,
> Javier
>
>
> El lun., 15 oct. 2018 a las 5:12, Bertrand Delacretaz (<
> bdelacretaz@apache.org>) escribió:
>
> > On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 10:09 PM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > ...I really enjoyed the presentation
> > > <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/>
> > James
> > > Dailey shared a couple of months ago...
> >
> > Great reference, thank you!
> >
> > (BTW https://jira.mongodb.org/browse/PYTHON-532 is a fantastic example
> > of how to handle "difficult" bug reports)
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
>
--
*Ed Cable*
President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
*Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
<http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org>.
Javier,
Thanks for the suggestion about a WhatsApp group - I agree that a
user-friendly more real-time chat tool is a nice complement to mailing
lists but by no means a replacement. I agree with all the feedback shared
by Mark and Myrle and don't really think WhatsApp might be the most ideal
tool even for a real-time chat namely for a lot of the reasons Myrle
suggested - I also think that for it to both be an effective tool for users
and developers looking to collaborate it needs to have some of the
integrations with Github, code formatting, etc. that tools like Hipchat,
Slack, Gitter already have.
As Myrle said, for the Apache Fineract community, HipChat exists and for
Mifos communities, we have our Gitter chat (which we continue to evaluate
versus options like Slack and Zulip)
While this is only related to the Mifos community, one thing that we are
exploring (and it's in the spirit of making a more user-friendly and
engaging user experience) is looking at an option like Discourse to replace
the Mifos Mailing lists and our Q&A tool. I believe it ticks off all the
boxes listed by Mark but also is more in-line with the user experience
around chat - it can provide mailing list, forum, Q & A/gamification, chat
features all in one.
See https://www.discourse.org/features
At the GSOC mentor summit, Yaw from Open Data Kit had some wonderful
feedback about their experiences with Discourse. You can see why they
switched at
https://opendatakit.org/2017/06/how-to-get-started-on-the-odk-forum/ and
see their implementation at https://forum.opendatakit.org/
On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 7:04 AM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy> wrote:
> Thanks all for your comments, there are strong arguments against Whatsapp,
> and it seems that the biggest one is that cannot be stored on ASF servers
> (for now?).
>
> Hipchat is good, but Whatsapp is ubiquitous and for many of us, number 1
> messaging and communication tool.
>
> We just need to lower the entry barriers for the non-technical
> collaborators to be able to collaborate and share what are they doing, how
> are they making this community better and bigger.
>
> Thanks again,
> Javier
>
>
> El lun., 15 oct. 2018 a las 5:12, Bertrand Delacretaz (<
> bdelacretaz@apache.org>) escribió:
>
> > On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 10:09 PM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > ...I really enjoyed the presentation
> > > <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/>
> > James
> > > Dailey shared a couple of months ago...
> >
> > Great reference, thank you!
> >
> > (BTW https://jira.mongodb.org/browse/PYTHON-532 is a fantastic example
> > of how to handle "difficult" bug reports)
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
>
--
*Ed Cable*
President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
*Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
<http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org>.
Javier,
Thanks for the suggestion about a WhatsApp group - I agree that a
user-friendly more real-time chat tool is a nice complement to mailing
lists but by no means a replacement. I agree with all the feedback shared
by Mark and Myrle and don't really think WhatsApp might be the most ideal
tool even for a real-time chat namely for a lot of the reasons Myrle
suggested - I also think that for it to both be an effective tool for users
and developers looking to collaborate it needs to have some of the
integrations with Github, code formatting, etc. that tools like Hipchat,
Slack, Gitter already have.
As Myrle said, for the Apache Fineract community, HipChat exists and for
Mifos communities, we have our Gitter chat (which we continue to evaluate
versus options like Slack and Zulip)
While this is only related to the Mifos community, one thing that we are
exploring (and it's in the spirit of making a more user-friendly and
engaging user experience) is looking at an option like Discourse to replace
the Mifos Mailing lists and our Q&A tool. I believe it ticks off all the
boxes listed by Mark but also is more in-line with the user experience
around chat - it can provide mailing list, forum, Q & A/gamification, chat
features all in one.
See https://www.discourse.org/features
At the GSOC mentor summit, Yaw from Open Data Kit had some wonderful
feedback about their experiences with Discourse. You can see why they
switched at
https://opendatakit.org/2017/06/how-to-get-started-on-the-odk-forum/ and
see their implementation at https://forum.opendatakit.org/
On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 7:04 AM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy> wrote:
> Thanks all for your comments, there are strong arguments against Whatsapp,
> and it seems that the biggest one is that cannot be stored on ASF servers
> (for now?).
>
> Hipchat is good, but Whatsapp is ubiquitous and for many of us, number 1
> messaging and communication tool.
>
> We just need to lower the entry barriers for the non-technical
> collaborators to be able to collaborate and share what are they doing, how
> are they making this community better and bigger.
>
> Thanks again,
> Javier
>
>
> El lun., 15 oct. 2018 a las 5:12, Bertrand Delacretaz (<
> bdelacretaz@apache.org>) escribió:
>
> > On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 10:09 PM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > ...I really enjoyed the presentation
> > > <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/>
> > James
> > > Dailey shared a couple of months ago...
> >
> > Great reference, thank you!
> >
> > (BTW https://jira.mongodb.org/browse/PYTHON-532 is a fantastic example
> > of how to handle "difficult" bug reports)
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
>
--
*Ed Cable*
President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
*Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
<http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy>.
Thanks all for your comments, there are strong arguments against Whatsapp,
and it seems that the biggest one is that cannot be stored on ASF servers
(for now?).
Hipchat is good, but Whatsapp is ubiquitous and for many of us, number 1
messaging and communication tool.
We just need to lower the entry barriers for the non-technical
collaborators to be able to collaborate and share what are they doing, how
are they making this community better and bigger.
Thanks again,
Javier
El lun., 15 oct. 2018 a las 5:12, Bertrand Delacretaz (<
bdelacretaz@apache.org>) escribió:
> On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 10:09 PM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy>
> wrote:
> >
> > ...I really enjoyed the presentation
> > <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/>
> James
> > Dailey shared a couple of months ago...
>
> Great reference, thank you!
>
> (BTW https://jira.mongodb.org/browse/PYTHON-532 is a fantastic example
> of how to handle "difficult" bug reports)
>
> -Bertrand
>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy>.
Thanks all for your comments, there are strong arguments against Whatsapp,
and it seems that the biggest one is that cannot be stored on ASF servers
(for now?).
Hipchat is good, but Whatsapp is ubiquitous and for many of us, number 1
messaging and communication tool.
We just need to lower the entry barriers for the non-technical
collaborators to be able to collaborate and share what are they doing, how
are they making this community better and bigger.
Thanks again,
Javier
El lun., 15 oct. 2018 a las 5:12, Bertrand Delacretaz (<
bdelacretaz@apache.org>) escribió:
> On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 10:09 PM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy>
> wrote:
> >
> > ...I really enjoyed the presentation
> > <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/>
> James
> > Dailey shared a couple of months ago...
>
> Great reference, thank you!
>
> (BTW https://jira.mongodb.org/browse/PYTHON-532 is a fantastic example
> of how to handle "difficult" bug reports)
>
> -Bertrand
>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 10:09 PM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy> wrote:
>
> ...I really enjoyed the presentation
> <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/> James
> Dailey shared a couple of months ago...
Great reference, thank you!
(BTW https://jira.mongodb.org/browse/PYTHON-532 is a fantastic example
of how to handle "difficult" bug reports)
-Bertrand
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Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
Repeating (with minor edits for this context) what I have said on
similar topics on other threads:
I don't think a WhatsApp group is a good idea.
The criteria that the ASF looks for in communication
channels used by projects are (in no particular order):
- open to all
- asynchronous
- available off-line
- full history
- searchable
- archived on ASF controlled systems
- low bandwidth / minimal system requirements
E-mail may seem a little 'old school' at times but it is one of the few
technologies that meets all of the above. Which is why most of our
systems are configured to echo stuff back to the relevant mailing list.
These days I'm used to an always on internet connections with speeds in
the 10s of megabits where I don't need to worry about the cost (even
when I am out and about) but it is worth remembering that not everyone
is in that position. It wasn't really that long ago that I could
sometimes be found working on Apache projects via a 9600 bits per second
dial-up connection that I paid for by the second. It was perfectly
possible for me to follow what was going on by connecting for a few
minutes every couple of hours, syncing my email, making a few commits if
I had anything to commit and then disconnecting and continuing to work
off-line. If a large proportion of communication had happened via a
WhatsApp like interface there is no way I would have been able to follow
the project.
I accept that there are times were using a 'real-time' communication
channel is more efficient. However, it excludes every member of the
community that isn't participating in that channel at that point in
time. The default position at the ASF is that it is better for
communication to be a little less efficient for a few in order for the
entire community to participate.
Cheers,
Mark
On 13/10/18 17:23, Javier Borkenztain wrote:
> Hi all, +1 on one single list with tags (there are at least 6 lists 😶)
>
> For the non-technical contributors like me, that most of my contribution to
> the community happens "out of the list", It will be useful to have only one
> place of reference.
>
> Also, I think we need a Whatsapp group, I am a member of several Whatsapp
> groups on Bitcoin and Blockchain, and they are much more efficient and fast
> to communicate non-technical issues, I've created the group, you can join
> it here: https://chat.whatsapp.com/BVsYOq5eOxqLrvbWnQ3Dck
>
> I really enjoyed the presentation
> <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/> James
> Dailey shared a couple of months ago, the message that we are on the "Open
> Source Age" is as powerful and meaningful as ever.
>
> More and more Fintechs, Financial Institutions and Banks are joining our
> community and they are our partners and community members, as we grow, we
> need to welcome them, I here propose we can announce each new partner that
> joins our global community, I think Whatsapp group is great for that and
> the community to grow.
>
> We are changing an entire industry as a community because the community
> outperforms the individuals.
>
> Let's keep rocking!!
> Javier
>
> El mié., 10 oct. 2018 a las 13:00, Ed Cable (<ed...@mifos.org>) escribió:
>
>> Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on directing
>> appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing lists, it got me
>> thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
>>
>> We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding merit or
>> committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the project. In
>> that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving out non-technical
>> members of the community who might only be subscribed to the user list when
>> we treat dev as the primary list for all communications (community-related,
>> etc whether they're technical or not).
>>
>> I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want to
>> cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are some ways
>> to address this?
>>
>> One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't
>> think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
>> distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
>>
>> I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the fact that
>> we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations happen on
>> dev
>>
>> Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary list
>> and any public community-related matter or announcement will come through
>> there and that everyone should be subscribed to that list to not miss any
>> key information?
>>
>> Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both lists if
>> it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and ensures
>> everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the discussion as
>> input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
>>
>> CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions based on
>> on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that we have
>> a larger user-facing community than most more
>> technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
>> Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
>> Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
>> To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
>>
>>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
>> dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
>> aware of this as well:
>>
>> https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
>>
>> In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the Fineract
>> project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
>> dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
>> private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
>> will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Myrle
>> Committer, Apache Fineract
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Ed Cable*
>> President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
>> edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
>>
>> *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
>> <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
>>
>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 7:34 PM Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org> wrote:
> @Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> Did you have feedback on the topic of
> unifying into one mailing list instead of dev & user?
>
I think it's a good idea. I'll be a +1 if you propose it.
: o),
Myrle
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Reggie Willoughby <re...@student.ashford.edu.INVALID>.
With an individual is alt comfort , he/she will open up more about what's the matter at hand.As to where when discomfort plays an isolater in the matter ,causing isolation to hide yourself from even inquiring the subject .All questions are important, So are experiences, & the best & correct way to achieve are through resources,
Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
________________________________
From: ross@gardler.org <ro...@gardler.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 12:45:58 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org; 'Dev'; 'Myrle Krantz'
Cc: 'Mifos software development'; 'mifos-users'; user@fineract.apache.org
Subject: RE: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
A single list with good subjects is far better, from a community building perspective, than multiple lists with reduced visibility across those lists. Think about going to some social event where you don't know anyone. Is it easier to enter a place that is already buzzing with activity or a place with a handful of people talking quietly in corners? Is it more fun to be in a place where you are confident that you "fit" because you can see the behavior of others or to be in a place where you feel everyone is watching (and judging?) because there are so few people you have to define the place?
Some of you will be comfortable when it is quiet, but you are the exception.
[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive. People who do not speak English natively can struggle and those in different timezones find themselves unable to communicate (plus splitting across too many forms of communication can be problematic). Such things can be used and are useful for specific purposes, but they must never become the primary source of collabroation ("if it didn't happen on the list, it didn't happen").
-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 10:33 AM
To: Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>; Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
Cc: Mifos software development <mi...@lists.sourceforge.net>; mifos-users <mi...@lists.sourceforge.net>; user@fineract.apache.org; dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Circling back to the original topic of discussion on this thread, given the volume on the user mailing list is so low and given the feedback on this thread thus far, I would propose we consolidate into one list and adopt a policy of appropriately tagging messages in the subject line. This hack on a mailing list seems an effective way to achieve our desired aim. If and when, volume grows too much or the dev list becomes unfocused or too chatty, we can set up the separate user list again.
I will let discussion play out a bit more here and then start a separate thread with the proposal and just follow lazy consensus if nobody objects.
If we do proceed ahead with that, we should clearly communicate the change and make known that we have one mailing list for all communications and to have clearly documented the common tags that we want to establish as the norm.
Would the old list just be made an archive?
@Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> Did you have feedback on the topic of unifying into one mailing list instead of dev & user?
Ed
On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 9:23 AM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy> wrote:
> Hi all, +1 on one single list with tags (there are at least 6 lists
> 😶)
>
> For the non-technical contributors like me, that most of my
> contribution to the community happens "out of the list", It will be
> useful to have only one place of reference.
>
> Also, I think we need a Whatsapp group, I am a member of several
> Whatsapp groups on Bitcoin and Blockchain, and they are much more
> efficient and fast to communicate non-technical issues, I've created
> the group, you can join it here:
> https://chat.whatsapp.com/BVsYOq5eOxqLrvbWnQ3Dck
>
> I really enjoyed the presentation
> <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/>
> James
> Dailey shared a couple of months ago, the message that we are on the
> "Open Source Age" is as powerful and meaningful as ever.
>
> More and more Fintechs, Financial Institutions and Banks are joining
> our community and they are our partners and community members, as we
> grow, we need to welcome them, I here propose we can announce each new
> partner that joins our global community, I think Whatsapp group is
> great for that and the community to grow.
>
> We are changing an entire industry as a community because the
> community outperforms the individuals.
>
> Let's keep rocking!!
> Javier
>
> El mié., 10 oct. 2018 a las 13:00, Ed Cable (<ed...@mifos.org>)
> escribió:
>
> > Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on
> > directing appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing
> > lists, it got me thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
> >
> > We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding
> > merit or committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the
> > project. In that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving
> > out non-technical members of the community who might only be
> > subscribed to the user list
> when
> > we treat dev as the primary list for all communications
> (community-related,
> > etc whether they're technical or not).
> >
> > I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want
> > to cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are
> > some
> ways
> > to address this?
> >
> > One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I
> > don't think that is good long-term because as community grows we
> > will have distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
> >
> > I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the
> > fact
> that
> > we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations
> > happen
> on
> > dev
> >
> > Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary
> > list and any public community-related matter or announcement will
> > come through there and that everyone should be subscribed to that
> > list to not miss any key information?
> >
> > Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both
> > lists
> if
> > it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and
> > ensures everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the
> > discussion as input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev
> > <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >
> > CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions
> > based
> on
> > on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that
> > we
> have
> > a larger user-facing community than most more
> > technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
> > Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
> > To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >
> >
> > Hey all,
> >
> > An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
> > dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
> > aware of this as well:
> >
> > https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
> >
> > In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the
> > Fineract project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
> > dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
> > private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
> > will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Myrle
> > Committer, Apache Fineract
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Ed Cable*
> > President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
> > edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
> >
> > *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries |
> > *http://mifos.org <http://facebook.com/mifos>
> > <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
> >
>
--
*Ed Cable*
President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
*Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
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Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Reggie Willoughby <re...@student.ashford.edu.INVALID>.
With an individual is alt comfort , he/she will open up more about what's the matter at hand.As to where when discomfort plays an isolater in the matter ,causing isolation to hide yourself from even inquiring the subject .All questions are important, So are experiences, & the best & correct way to achieve are through resources,
Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
________________________________
From: ross@gardler.org <ro...@gardler.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 12:45:58 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org; 'Dev'; 'Myrle Krantz'
Cc: 'Mifos software development'; 'mifos-users'; user@fineract.apache.org
Subject: RE: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
A single list with good subjects is far better, from a community building perspective, than multiple lists with reduced visibility across those lists. Think about going to some social event where you don't know anyone. Is it easier to enter a place that is already buzzing with activity or a place with a handful of people talking quietly in corners? Is it more fun to be in a place where you are confident that you "fit" because you can see the behavior of others or to be in a place where you feel everyone is watching (and judging?) because there are so few people you have to define the place?
Some of you will be comfortable when it is quiet, but you are the exception.
[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive. People who do not speak English natively can struggle and those in different timezones find themselves unable to communicate (plus splitting across too many forms of communication can be problematic). Such things can be used and are useful for specific purposes, but they must never become the primary source of collabroation ("if it didn't happen on the list, it didn't happen").
-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 10:33 AM
To: Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>; Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
Cc: Mifos software development <mi...@lists.sourceforge.net>; mifos-users <mi...@lists.sourceforge.net>; user@fineract.apache.org; dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Circling back to the original topic of discussion on this thread, given the volume on the user mailing list is so low and given the feedback on this thread thus far, I would propose we consolidate into one list and adopt a policy of appropriately tagging messages in the subject line. This hack on a mailing list seems an effective way to achieve our desired aim. If and when, volume grows too much or the dev list becomes unfocused or too chatty, we can set up the separate user list again.
I will let discussion play out a bit more here and then start a separate thread with the proposal and just follow lazy consensus if nobody objects.
If we do proceed ahead with that, we should clearly communicate the change and make known that we have one mailing list for all communications and to have clearly documented the common tags that we want to establish as the norm.
Would the old list just be made an archive?
@Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> Did you have feedback on the topic of unifying into one mailing list instead of dev & user?
Ed
On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 9:23 AM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy> wrote:
> Hi all, +1 on one single list with tags (there are at least 6 lists
> 😶)
>
> For the non-technical contributors like me, that most of my
> contribution to the community happens "out of the list", It will be
> useful to have only one place of reference.
>
> Also, I think we need a Whatsapp group, I am a member of several
> Whatsapp groups on Bitcoin and Blockchain, and they are much more
> efficient and fast to communicate non-technical issues, I've created
> the group, you can join it here:
> https://chat.whatsapp.com/BVsYOq5eOxqLrvbWnQ3Dck
>
> I really enjoyed the presentation
> <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/>
> James
> Dailey shared a couple of months ago, the message that we are on the
> "Open Source Age" is as powerful and meaningful as ever.
>
> More and more Fintechs, Financial Institutions and Banks are joining
> our community and they are our partners and community members, as we
> grow, we need to welcome them, I here propose we can announce each new
> partner that joins our global community, I think Whatsapp group is
> great for that and the community to grow.
>
> We are changing an entire industry as a community because the
> community outperforms the individuals.
>
> Let's keep rocking!!
> Javier
>
> El mié., 10 oct. 2018 a las 13:00, Ed Cable (<ed...@mifos.org>)
> escribió:
>
> > Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on
> > directing appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing
> > lists, it got me thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
> >
> > We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding
> > merit or committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the
> > project. In that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving
> > out non-technical members of the community who might only be
> > subscribed to the user list
> when
> > we treat dev as the primary list for all communications
> (community-related,
> > etc whether they're technical or not).
> >
> > I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want
> > to cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are
> > some
> ways
> > to address this?
> >
> > One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I
> > don't think that is good long-term because as community grows we
> > will have distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
> >
> > I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the
> > fact
> that
> > we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations
> > happen
> on
> > dev
> >
> > Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary
> > list and any public community-related matter or announcement will
> > come through there and that everyone should be subscribed to that
> > list to not miss any key information?
> >
> > Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both
> > lists
> if
> > it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and
> > ensures everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the
> > discussion as input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev
> > <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >
> > CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions
> > based
> on
> > on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that
> > we
> have
> > a larger user-facing community than most more
> > technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
> > Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
> > To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >
> >
> > Hey all,
> >
> > An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
> > dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
> > aware of this as well:
> >
> > https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
> >
> > In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the
> > Fineract project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
> > dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
> > private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
> > will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Myrle
> > Committer, Apache Fineract
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Ed Cable*
> > President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
> > edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
> >
> > *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries |
> > *http://mifos.org <http://facebook.com/mifos>
> > <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
> >
>
--
*Ed Cable*
President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
*Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Sendoro Juma <se...@singo.africa>.
+1
Mr. Ed... do combine too the other side...."You know what I mean"
>
> On October 17, 2018 at 7:50 PM James Dailey <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> +1 on combining listservs and using [TOPIC_HEADING] and try to keep issues
> to one topic.
>
> email is natively asynchronous communication, standardized across all user
> systems and experiences, ubiquitous
> when archived it is searchable
> yes, it is old school, but it works
> there is a tongue in cheek saying that all collaboration systems (e.g.
> Slack) devolves to email functionality eventually
> https://api.slack.com/methods/search.messages
>
> Further related topic? [Tools for Collaboration of Community]
>
> I'd suggest that the fineract community should:
> 1) stay focused on the existing and mainstream apache tools that are
> current, rather than on the cutting edge, acknowledging there's always a
> new thing that is cool
>
> 2) practice good email hygiene with {TOPICS} and on-topic threads, using a
> mantra of disciplined culture
> (this thread is now somewhat off topic, and I would note got there very
> quickly)
>
> 3) reduce the number of communication channels for the fineract community,
> understanding that many users and developers also are subscribed to- and
> participate in-the mifos community which is the origin of the community and
> still has a 90%+ overlap (90% of members of fineract are members of mifos I
> figure, but didn't calc)
>
> 4) have clear roles for the various tools and flows - which are described
> as part of the "Getting Started" wiki
> how information is summarized and flows from one forum to another, specific
> to our community but leveraging Apache norms (which also should be noted):
> e.g. email discourse leads to a wiki entry like a requirements page , or
> leads to a bug issue, or leads to a new feature, or leads to a development
> sprint ;
> e.g. JIRA entries are summarized quarterly or monthly back to the listserve
> to provide round trip ;
> e.g. github commit entries are auto included in JIRA tickets when tagged
> appropriately ;
> ~Jdailey
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:11 AM Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org> wrote:
>
> > >
> > Thanks for sharing that Bertrand - it was a good read - and easy for you
> > to share because it was discussed publicly on a mailing list :)
> >
> > On that thread as well there was also a lot of support for a
> > discourse-based forum too which can be a nice happy medium offering the
> > advantages of a mailing list and the approachability of a chat/forum.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:04 AM Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > bdelacretaz@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:46 PM <ro...@gardler.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > ...[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive...
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > FWIW there was a good discussion about this recently in Apache Arrow:
> > >
> > > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8433cda04dc9e1d6bb235e4f29bde30d07c3e5d81177af785af177f2@%3Cdev.arrow.apache.org%3E
> > >
> > > -Bertrand
> > >
> > > > >
> > --
> > *Ed Cable*
> > President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
> > edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
> > <(484)%20477-8649>
> >
> > *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
> > <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
> >
> > >
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by James Dailey <ja...@gmail.com>.
+1 on combining listservs and using [TOPIC_HEADING] and try to keep issues
to one topic.
email is natively asynchronous communication, standardized across all user
systems and experiences, ubiquitous
when archived it is searchable
yes, it is old school, but it works
there is a tongue in cheek saying that all collaboration systems (e.g.
Slack) devolves to email functionality eventually
https://api.slack.com/methods/search.messages
Further related topic? [Tools for Collaboration of Community]
I'd suggest that the fineract community should:
1) stay focused on the existing and mainstream apache tools that are
current, rather than on the cutting edge, acknowledging there's always a
new thing that is cool
2) practice good email hygiene with {TOPICS} and on-topic threads, using a
mantra of disciplined culture
(this thread is now somewhat off topic, and I would note got there very
quickly)
3) reduce the number of communication channels for the fineract community,
understanding that many users and developers also are subscribed to- and
participate in-the mifos community which is the origin of the community and
still has a 90%+ overlap (90% of members of fineract are members of mifos I
figure, but didn't calc)
4) have clear roles for the various tools and flows - which are described
as part of the "Getting Started" wiki
how information is summarized and flows from one forum to another, specific
to our community but leveraging Apache norms (which also should be noted):
e.g. email discourse leads to a wiki entry like a requirements page , or
leads to a bug issue, or leads to a new feature, or leads to a development
sprint ;
e.g. JIRA entries are summarized quarterly or monthly back to the listserve
to provide round trip ;
e.g. github commit entries are auto included in JIRA tickets when tagged
appropriately ;
~Jdailey
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:11 AM Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org> wrote:
> Thanks for sharing that Bertrand - it was a good read - and easy for you
> to share because it was discussed publicly on a mailing list :)
>
> On that thread as well there was also a lot of support for a
> discourse-based forum too which can be a nice happy medium offering the
> advantages of a mailing list and the approachability of a chat/forum.
>
> Ed
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:04 AM Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:46 PM <ro...@gardler.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > ...[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive...
> >
> > FWIW there was a good discussion about this recently in Apache Arrow:
> >
> >
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8433cda04dc9e1d6bb235e4f29bde30d07c3e5d81177af785af177f2@%3Cdev.arrow.apache.org%3E
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
>
>
> --
> *Ed Cable*
> President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
> edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
> <(484)%20477-8649>
>
> *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
> <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org>.
Thanks for sharing that Bertrand - it was a good read - and easy for you
to share because it was discussed publicly on a mailing list :)
On that thread as well there was also a lot of support for a
discourse-based forum too which can be a nice happy medium offering the
advantages of a mailing list and the approachability of a chat/forum.
Ed
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:04 AM Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:46 PM <ro...@gardler.org> wrote:
> >
> > ...[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive...
>
> FWIW there was a good discussion about this recently in Apache Arrow:
>
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8433cda04dc9e1d6bb235e4f29bde30d07c3e5d81177af785af177f2@%3Cdev.arrow.apache.org%3E
>
> -Bertrand
>
--
*Ed Cable*
President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
*Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
<http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi Joan,
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:18 PM Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...I'm firmly of the opinion that you can't completely ignore real-time
> communications and expect 100% of everything to occur asynchronously
> on mailing lists....
I totally agree with that, as you say synchronous discussions will
happen anyway and that's good.
OTOH I think we have a number of podlings, and maybe projects, for
which the dev list seems to be just an annoyance, things happen on
Slack anyway so who cares? I'm pushing it a bit here but just a bit.
I think there's a balance to be found, and in that sense it's great if
people can tell the stories of what works in their projects. Blog
posts in the "Success at Apache" series or under
https://blogs.apache.org/comdev/ would be *very* welcome, and I'm
happy to help make them happen, review etc. if desired.
Is your doctoral research available online? It sounds quite relevant
to what we're discussing here.
-Bertrand
Re: [Mifos-users] Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by jubha mayala <ba...@gmail.com>.
Many users do enjoy the mail lists by browsing answered queries and solved
problems, which in Whatsapp or real time chat is quiet difficult to trace
these kind of things!
Regards,
Jimmy
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 7:08 AM Santosh Math <
santosh@confluxtechnologies.com> wrote:
> +1
>
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:53 AM Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the info, Bertrand.
>>
>> Mailing lists can be just as exclusive as semi-synchronous environments.
>> They may not work for your community, but they work for ours, and removing
>> them will necessarily disadvantage many contributors.
>>
>> I'm firmly of the opinion that you can't completely ignore real-time
>> communications and expect 100% of everything to occur asynchronously on
>> mailing lists. It explicitly disallows certain types of communication that
>> you can't have in a mailing list. You have the imposition of the formality
>> of a mailing list for newcomers, you have the "being on record" syndrome,
>> you have the "must be subscribed to post" problem (not always), and finally
>> you are ignoring the fact that people will talk real time anyway - so why
>> not make that a venue that you at least have some control/visibility over?
>> In fact, my doctoral research was on how semi-synchronous communications
>> support distance work and learning better than fully asynchronous ones....
>>
>> -Joan
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org>
>> To: "dev" <de...@community.apache.org>
>> Cc: dev@fineract.apache.org, "Myrle Krantz" <my...@apache.org>,
>> mifos-developer@lists.sourceforge.net, mifos-users@lists.sourceforge.net,
>> user@fineract.apache.org
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:04:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:46 PM <ro...@gardler.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > ...[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive...
>>
>> FWIW there was a good discussion about this recently in Apache Arrow:
>>
>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8433cda04dc9e1d6bb235e4f29bde30d07c3e5d81177af785af177f2@%3Cdev.arrow.apache.org%3E
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks & Regards
>
> Santosh Math
>
> *QA Engineer*
>
> *Conflux Technologies Pvt Ltd <http://www.confluxtechnologies.com/>*
> | *Office*: +91-080-41208662 |
>
> *Address*: #304, 2nd Floor, 7th Main Road, HRBR Layout 1st Block,
> Bengaluru, Karnataka, 560043 INDIA
> _______________________________________________
> Mifos-users mailing list
> Mifos-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mifos-users
>
Re: [Mifos-users] Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by jubha mayala <ba...@gmail.com>.
Many users do enjoy the mail lists by browsing answered queries and solved
problems, which in Whatsapp or real time chat is quiet difficult to trace
these kind of things!
Regards,
Jimmy
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 7:08 AM Santosh Math <
santosh@confluxtechnologies.com> wrote:
> +1
>
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:53 AM Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the info, Bertrand.
>>
>> Mailing lists can be just as exclusive as semi-synchronous environments.
>> They may not work for your community, but they work for ours, and removing
>> them will necessarily disadvantage many contributors.
>>
>> I'm firmly of the opinion that you can't completely ignore real-time
>> communications and expect 100% of everything to occur asynchronously on
>> mailing lists. It explicitly disallows certain types of communication that
>> you can't have in a mailing list. You have the imposition of the formality
>> of a mailing list for newcomers, you have the "being on record" syndrome,
>> you have the "must be subscribed to post" problem (not always), and finally
>> you are ignoring the fact that people will talk real time anyway - so why
>> not make that a venue that you at least have some control/visibility over?
>> In fact, my doctoral research was on how semi-synchronous communications
>> support distance work and learning better than fully asynchronous ones....
>>
>> -Joan
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org>
>> To: "dev" <de...@community.apache.org>
>> Cc: dev@fineract.apache.org, "Myrle Krantz" <my...@apache.org>,
>> mifos-developer@lists.sourceforge.net, mifos-users@lists.sourceforge.net,
>> user@fineract.apache.org
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:04:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:46 PM <ro...@gardler.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > ...[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive...
>>
>> FWIW there was a good discussion about this recently in Apache Arrow:
>>
>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8433cda04dc9e1d6bb235e4f29bde30d07c3e5d81177af785af177f2@%3Cdev.arrow.apache.org%3E
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks & Regards
>
> Santosh Math
>
> *QA Engineer*
>
> *Conflux Technologies Pvt Ltd <http://www.confluxtechnologies.com/>*
> | *Office*: +91-080-41208662 |
>
> *Address*: #304, 2nd Floor, 7th Main Road, HRBR Layout 1st Block,
> Bengaluru, Karnataka, 560043 INDIA
> _______________________________________________
> Mifos-users mailing list
> Mifos-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mifos-users
>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Santosh Math <sa...@confluxtechnologies.com>.
+1
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:53 AM Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> Thanks for the info, Bertrand.
>
> Mailing lists can be just as exclusive as semi-synchronous environments.
> They may not work for your community, but they work for ours, and removing
> them will necessarily disadvantage many contributors.
>
> I'm firmly of the opinion that you can't completely ignore real-time
> communications and expect 100% of everything to occur asynchronously on
> mailing lists. It explicitly disallows certain types of communication that
> you can't have in a mailing list. You have the imposition of the formality
> of a mailing list for newcomers, you have the "being on record" syndrome,
> you have the "must be subscribed to post" problem (not always), and finally
> you are ignoring the fact that people will talk real time anyway - so why
> not make that a venue that you at least have some control/visibility over?
> In fact, my doctoral research was on how semi-synchronous communications
> support distance work and learning better than fully asynchronous ones....
>
> -Joan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org>
> To: "dev" <de...@community.apache.org>
> Cc: dev@fineract.apache.org, "Myrle Krantz" <my...@apache.org>,
> mifos-developer@lists.sourceforge.net, mifos-users@lists.sourceforge.net,
> user@fineract.apache.org
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:04:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:46 PM <ro...@gardler.org> wrote:
> >
> > ...[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive...
>
> FWIW there was a good discussion about this recently in Apache Arrow:
>
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8433cda04dc9e1d6bb235e4f29bde30d07c3e5d81177af785af177f2@%3Cdev.arrow.apache.org%3E
>
> -Bertrand
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
--
Thanks & Regards
Santosh Math
*QA Engineer*
*Conflux Technologies Pvt Ltd <http://www.confluxtechnologies.com/>*
| *Office*: +91-080-41208662 |
*Address*: #304, 2nd Floor, 7th Main Road, HRBR Layout 1st Block,
Bengaluru, Karnataka, 560043 INDIA
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi Joan,
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:18 PM Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...I'm firmly of the opinion that you can't completely ignore real-time
> communications and expect 100% of everything to occur asynchronously
> on mailing lists....
I totally agree with that, as you say synchronous discussions will
happen anyway and that's good.
OTOH I think we have a number of podlings, and maybe projects, for
which the dev list seems to be just an annoyance, things happen on
Slack anyway so who cares? I'm pushing it a bit here but just a bit.
I think there's a balance to be found, and in that sense it's great if
people can tell the stories of what works in their projects. Blog
posts in the "Success at Apache" series or under
https://blogs.apache.org/comdev/ would be *very* welcome, and I'm
happy to help make them happen, review etc. if desired.
Is your doctoral research available online? It sounds quite relevant
to what we're discussing here.
-Bertrand
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Santosh Math <sa...@confluxtechnologies.com>.
+1
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:53 AM Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> Thanks for the info, Bertrand.
>
> Mailing lists can be just as exclusive as semi-synchronous environments.
> They may not work for your community, but they work for ours, and removing
> them will necessarily disadvantage many contributors.
>
> I'm firmly of the opinion that you can't completely ignore real-time
> communications and expect 100% of everything to occur asynchronously on
> mailing lists. It explicitly disallows certain types of communication that
> you can't have in a mailing list. You have the imposition of the formality
> of a mailing list for newcomers, you have the "being on record" syndrome,
> you have the "must be subscribed to post" problem (not always), and finally
> you are ignoring the fact that people will talk real time anyway - so why
> not make that a venue that you at least have some control/visibility over?
> In fact, my doctoral research was on how semi-synchronous communications
> support distance work and learning better than fully asynchronous ones....
>
> -Joan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org>
> To: "dev" <de...@community.apache.org>
> Cc: dev@fineract.apache.org, "Myrle Krantz" <my...@apache.org>,
> mifos-developer@lists.sourceforge.net, mifos-users@lists.sourceforge.net,
> user@fineract.apache.org
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:04:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:46 PM <ro...@gardler.org> wrote:
> >
> > ...[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive...
>
> FWIW there was a good discussion about this recently in Apache Arrow:
>
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8433cda04dc9e1d6bb235e4f29bde30d07c3e5d81177af785af177f2@%3Cdev.arrow.apache.org%3E
>
> -Bertrand
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
--
Thanks & Regards
Santosh Math
*QA Engineer*
*Conflux Technologies Pvt Ltd <http://www.confluxtechnologies.com/>*
| *Office*: +91-080-41208662 |
*Address*: #304, 2nd Floor, 7th Main Road, HRBR Layout 1st Block,
Bengaluru, Karnataka, 560043 INDIA
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi Joan,
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:18 PM Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...I'm firmly of the opinion that you can't completely ignore real-time
> communications and expect 100% of everything to occur asynchronously
> on mailing lists....
I totally agree with that, as you say synchronous discussions will
happen anyway and that's good.
OTOH I think we have a number of podlings, and maybe projects, for
which the dev list seems to be just an annoyance, things happen on
Slack anyway so who cares? I'm pushing it a bit here but just a bit.
I think there's a balance to be found, and in that sense it's great if
people can tell the stories of what works in their projects. Blog
posts in the "Success at Apache" series or under
https://blogs.apache.org/comdev/ would be *very* welcome, and I'm
happy to help make them happen, review etc. if desired.
Is your doctoral research available online? It sounds quite relevant
to what we're discussing here.
-Bertrand
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Santosh Math <sa...@confluxtechnologies.com>.
+1
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:53 AM Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> Thanks for the info, Bertrand.
>
> Mailing lists can be just as exclusive as semi-synchronous environments.
> They may not work for your community, but they work for ours, and removing
> them will necessarily disadvantage many contributors.
>
> I'm firmly of the opinion that you can't completely ignore real-time
> communications and expect 100% of everything to occur asynchronously on
> mailing lists. It explicitly disallows certain types of communication that
> you can't have in a mailing list. You have the imposition of the formality
> of a mailing list for newcomers, you have the "being on record" syndrome,
> you have the "must be subscribed to post" problem (not always), and finally
> you are ignoring the fact that people will talk real time anyway - so why
> not make that a venue that you at least have some control/visibility over?
> In fact, my doctoral research was on how semi-synchronous communications
> support distance work and learning better than fully asynchronous ones....
>
> -Joan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org>
> To: "dev" <de...@community.apache.org>
> Cc: dev@fineract.apache.org, "Myrle Krantz" <my...@apache.org>,
> mifos-developer@lists.sourceforge.net, mifos-users@lists.sourceforge.net,
> user@fineract.apache.org
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:04:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:46 PM <ro...@gardler.org> wrote:
> >
> > ...[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive...
>
> FWIW there was a good discussion about this recently in Apache Arrow:
>
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8433cda04dc9e1d6bb235e4f29bde30d07c3e5d81177af785af177f2@%3Cdev.arrow.apache.org%3E
>
> -Bertrand
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
--
Thanks & Regards
Santosh Math
*QA Engineer*
*Conflux Technologies Pvt Ltd <http://www.confluxtechnologies.com/>*
| *Office*: +91-080-41208662 |
*Address*: #304, 2nd Floor, 7th Main Road, HRBR Layout 1st Block,
Bengaluru, Karnataka, 560043 INDIA
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
Thanks for the info, Bertrand.
Mailing lists can be just as exclusive as semi-synchronous environments. They may not work for your community, but they work for ours, and removing them will necessarily disadvantage many contributors.
I'm firmly of the opinion that you can't completely ignore real-time communications and expect 100% of everything to occur asynchronously on mailing lists. It explicitly disallows certain types of communication that you can't have in a mailing list. You have the imposition of the formality of a mailing list for newcomers, you have the "being on record" syndrome, you have the "must be subscribed to post" problem (not always), and finally you are ignoring the fact that people will talk real time anyway - so why not make that a venue that you at least have some control/visibility over? In fact, my doctoral research was on how semi-synchronous communications support distance work and learning better than fully asynchronous ones....
-Joan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org>
To: "dev" <de...@community.apache.org>
Cc: dev@fineract.apache.org, "Myrle Krantz" <my...@apache.org>, mifos-developer@lists.sourceforge.net, mifos-users@lists.sourceforge.net, user@fineract.apache.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:04:27 PM
Subject: Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:46 PM <ro...@gardler.org> wrote:
>
> ...[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive...
FWIW there was a good discussion about this recently in Apache Arrow:
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8433cda04dc9e1d6bb235e4f29bde30d07c3e5d81177af785af177f2@%3Cdev.arrow.apache.org%3E
-Bertrand
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Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org>.
Thanks for sharing that Bertrand - it was a good read - and easy for you
to share because it was discussed publicly on a mailing list :)
On that thread as well there was also a lot of support for a
discourse-based forum too which can be a nice happy medium offering the
advantages of a mailing list and the approachability of a chat/forum.
Ed
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:04 AM Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:46 PM <ro...@gardler.org> wrote:
> >
> > ...[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive...
>
> FWIW there was a good discussion about this recently in Apache Arrow:
>
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8433cda04dc9e1d6bb235e4f29bde30d07c3e5d81177af785af177f2@%3Cdev.arrow.apache.org%3E
>
> -Bertrand
>
--
*Ed Cable*
President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
*Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
<http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
Thanks for the info, Bertrand.
Mailing lists can be just as exclusive as semi-synchronous environments. They may not work for your community, but they work for ours, and removing them will necessarily disadvantage many contributors.
I'm firmly of the opinion that you can't completely ignore real-time communications and expect 100% of everything to occur asynchronously on mailing lists. It explicitly disallows certain types of communication that you can't have in a mailing list. You have the imposition of the formality of a mailing list for newcomers, you have the "being on record" syndrome, you have the "must be subscribed to post" problem (not always), and finally you are ignoring the fact that people will talk real time anyway - so why not make that a venue that you at least have some control/visibility over? In fact, my doctoral research was on how semi-synchronous communications support distance work and learning better than fully asynchronous ones....
-Joan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org>
To: "dev" <de...@community.apache.org>
Cc: dev@fineract.apache.org, "Myrle Krantz" <my...@apache.org>, mifos-developer@lists.sourceforge.net, mifos-users@lists.sourceforge.net, user@fineract.apache.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:04:27 PM
Subject: Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:46 PM <ro...@gardler.org> wrote:
>
> ...[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive...
FWIW there was a good discussion about this recently in Apache Arrow:
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8433cda04dc9e1d6bb235e4f29bde30d07c3e5d81177af785af177f2@%3Cdev.arrow.apache.org%3E
-Bertrand
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Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org>.
Thanks for sharing that Bertrand - it was a good read - and easy for you
to share because it was discussed publicly on a mailing list :)
On that thread as well there was also a lot of support for a
discourse-based forum too which can be a nice happy medium offering the
advantages of a mailing list and the approachability of a chat/forum.
Ed
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:04 AM Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:46 PM <ro...@gardler.org> wrote:
> >
> > ...[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive...
>
> FWIW there was a good discussion about this recently in Apache Arrow:
>
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8433cda04dc9e1d6bb235e4f29bde30d07c3e5d81177af785af177f2@%3Cdev.arrow.apache.org%3E
>
> -Bertrand
>
--
*Ed Cable*
President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
*Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
<http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:46 PM <ro...@gardler.org> wrote:
>
> ...[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive...
FWIW there was a good discussion about this recently in Apache Arrow:
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8433cda04dc9e1d6bb235e4f29bde30d07c3e5d81177af785af177f2@%3Cdev.arrow.apache.org%3E
-Bertrand
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:46 PM <ro...@gardler.org> wrote:
>
> ...[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive...
FWIW there was a good discussion about this recently in Apache Arrow:
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8433cda04dc9e1d6bb235e4f29bde30d07c3e5d81177af785af177f2@%3Cdev.arrow.apache.org%3E
-Bertrand
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:46 PM <ro...@gardler.org> wrote:
>
> ...[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive...
FWIW there was a good discussion about this recently in Apache Arrow:
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8433cda04dc9e1d6bb235e4f29bde30d07c3e5d81177af785af177f2@%3Cdev.arrow.apache.org%3E
-Bertrand
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RE: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by ro...@gardler.org.
A single list with good subjects is far better, from a community building perspective, than multiple lists with reduced visibility across those lists. Think about going to some social event where you don't know anyone. Is it easier to enter a place that is already buzzing with activity or a place with a handful of people talking quietly in corners? Is it more fun to be in a place where you are confident that you "fit" because you can see the behavior of others or to be in a place where you feel everyone is watching (and judging?) because there are so few people you have to define the place?
Some of you will be comfortable when it is quiet, but you are the exception.
[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive. People who do not speak English natively can struggle and those in different timezones find themselves unable to communicate (plus splitting across too many forms of communication can be problematic). Such things can be used and are useful for specific purposes, but they must never become the primary source of collabroation ("if it didn't happen on the list, it didn't happen").
-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 10:33 AM
To: Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>; Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
Cc: Mifos software development <mi...@lists.sourceforge.net>; mifos-users <mi...@lists.sourceforge.net>; user@fineract.apache.org; dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Circling back to the original topic of discussion on this thread, given the volume on the user mailing list is so low and given the feedback on this thread thus far, I would propose we consolidate into one list and adopt a policy of appropriately tagging messages in the subject line. This hack on a mailing list seems an effective way to achieve our desired aim. If and when, volume grows too much or the dev list becomes unfocused or too chatty, we can set up the separate user list again.
I will let discussion play out a bit more here and then start a separate thread with the proposal and just follow lazy consensus if nobody objects.
If we do proceed ahead with that, we should clearly communicate the change and make known that we have one mailing list for all communications and to have clearly documented the common tags that we want to establish as the norm.
Would the old list just be made an archive?
@Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> Did you have feedback on the topic of unifying into one mailing list instead of dev & user?
Ed
On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 9:23 AM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy> wrote:
> Hi all, +1 on one single list with tags (there are at least 6 lists
> 😶)
>
> For the non-technical contributors like me, that most of my
> contribution to the community happens "out of the list", It will be
> useful to have only one place of reference.
>
> Also, I think we need a Whatsapp group, I am a member of several
> Whatsapp groups on Bitcoin and Blockchain, and they are much more
> efficient and fast to communicate non-technical issues, I've created
> the group, you can join it here:
> https://chat.whatsapp.com/BVsYOq5eOxqLrvbWnQ3Dck
>
> I really enjoyed the presentation
> <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/>
> James
> Dailey shared a couple of months ago, the message that we are on the
> "Open Source Age" is as powerful and meaningful as ever.
>
> More and more Fintechs, Financial Institutions and Banks are joining
> our community and they are our partners and community members, as we
> grow, we need to welcome them, I here propose we can announce each new
> partner that joins our global community, I think Whatsapp group is
> great for that and the community to grow.
>
> We are changing an entire industry as a community because the
> community outperforms the individuals.
>
> Let's keep rocking!!
> Javier
>
> El mié., 10 oct. 2018 a las 13:00, Ed Cable (<ed...@mifos.org>)
> escribió:
>
> > Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on
> > directing appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing
> > lists, it got me thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
> >
> > We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding
> > merit or committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the
> > project. In that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving
> > out non-technical members of the community who might only be
> > subscribed to the user list
> when
> > we treat dev as the primary list for all communications
> (community-related,
> > etc whether they're technical or not).
> >
> > I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want
> > to cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are
> > some
> ways
> > to address this?
> >
> > One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I
> > don't think that is good long-term because as community grows we
> > will have distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
> >
> > I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the
> > fact
> that
> > we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations
> > happen
> on
> > dev
> >
> > Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary
> > list and any public community-related matter or announcement will
> > come through there and that everyone should be subscribed to that
> > list to not miss any key information?
> >
> > Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both
> > lists
> if
> > it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and
> > ensures everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the
> > discussion as input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev
> > <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >
> > CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions
> > based
> on
> > on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that
> > we
> have
> > a larger user-facing community than most more
> > technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
> > Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
> > To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >
> >
> > Hey all,
> >
> > An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
> > dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
> > aware of this as well:
> >
> > https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
> >
> > In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the
> > Fineract project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
> > dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
> > private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
> > will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Myrle
> > Committer, Apache Fineract
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Ed Cable*
> > President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
> > edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
> >
> > *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries |
> > *http://mifos.org <http://facebook.com/mifos>
> > <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
> >
>
--
*Ed Cable*
President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
*Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
RE: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by ro...@gardler.org.
A single list with good subjects is far better, from a community building perspective, than multiple lists with reduced visibility across those lists. Think about going to some social event where you don't know anyone. Is it easier to enter a place that is already buzzing with activity or a place with a handful of people talking quietly in corners? Is it more fun to be in a place where you are confident that you "fit" because you can see the behavior of others or to be in a place where you feel everyone is watching (and judging?) because there are so few people you have to define the place?
Some of you will be comfortable when it is quiet, but you are the exception.
[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive. People who do not speak English natively can struggle and those in different timezones find themselves unable to communicate (plus splitting across too many forms of communication can be problematic). Such things can be used and are useful for specific purposes, but they must never become the primary source of collabroation ("if it didn't happen on the list, it didn't happen").
-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 10:33 AM
To: Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>; Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
Cc: Mifos software development <mi...@lists.sourceforge.net>; mifos-users <mi...@lists.sourceforge.net>; user@fineract.apache.org; dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Circling back to the original topic of discussion on this thread, given the volume on the user mailing list is so low and given the feedback on this thread thus far, I would propose we consolidate into one list and adopt a policy of appropriately tagging messages in the subject line. This hack on a mailing list seems an effective way to achieve our desired aim. If and when, volume grows too much or the dev list becomes unfocused or too chatty, we can set up the separate user list again.
I will let discussion play out a bit more here and then start a separate thread with the proposal and just follow lazy consensus if nobody objects.
If we do proceed ahead with that, we should clearly communicate the change and make known that we have one mailing list for all communications and to have clearly documented the common tags that we want to establish as the norm.
Would the old list just be made an archive?
@Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> Did you have feedback on the topic of unifying into one mailing list instead of dev & user?
Ed
On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 9:23 AM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy> wrote:
> Hi all, +1 on one single list with tags (there are at least 6 lists
> 😶)
>
> For the non-technical contributors like me, that most of my
> contribution to the community happens "out of the list", It will be
> useful to have only one place of reference.
>
> Also, I think we need a Whatsapp group, I am a member of several
> Whatsapp groups on Bitcoin and Blockchain, and they are much more
> efficient and fast to communicate non-technical issues, I've created
> the group, you can join it here:
> https://chat.whatsapp.com/BVsYOq5eOxqLrvbWnQ3Dck
>
> I really enjoyed the presentation
> <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/>
> James
> Dailey shared a couple of months ago, the message that we are on the
> "Open Source Age" is as powerful and meaningful as ever.
>
> More and more Fintechs, Financial Institutions and Banks are joining
> our community and they are our partners and community members, as we
> grow, we need to welcome them, I here propose we can announce each new
> partner that joins our global community, I think Whatsapp group is
> great for that and the community to grow.
>
> We are changing an entire industry as a community because the
> community outperforms the individuals.
>
> Let's keep rocking!!
> Javier
>
> El mié., 10 oct. 2018 a las 13:00, Ed Cable (<ed...@mifos.org>)
> escribió:
>
> > Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on
> > directing appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing
> > lists, it got me thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
> >
> > We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding
> > merit or committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the
> > project. In that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving
> > out non-technical members of the community who might only be
> > subscribed to the user list
> when
> > we treat dev as the primary list for all communications
> (community-related,
> > etc whether they're technical or not).
> >
> > I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want
> > to cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are
> > some
> ways
> > to address this?
> >
> > One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I
> > don't think that is good long-term because as community grows we
> > will have distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
> >
> > I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the
> > fact
> that
> > we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations
> > happen
> on
> > dev
> >
> > Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary
> > list and any public community-related matter or announcement will
> > come through there and that everyone should be subscribed to that
> > list to not miss any key information?
> >
> > Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both
> > lists
> if
> > it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and
> > ensures everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the
> > discussion as input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev
> > <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >
> > CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions
> > based
> on
> > on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that
> > we
> have
> > a larger user-facing community than most more
> > technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
> > Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
> > To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >
> >
> > Hey all,
> >
> > An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
> > dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
> > aware of this as well:
> >
> > https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
> >
> > In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the
> > Fineract project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
> > dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
> > private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
> > will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Myrle
> > Committer, Apache Fineract
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Ed Cable*
> > President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
> > edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
> >
> > *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries |
> > *http://mifos.org <http://facebook.com/mifos>
> > <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
> >
>
--
*Ed Cable*
President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
*Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
RE: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by ro...@gardler.org.
A single list with good subjects is far better, from a community building perspective, than multiple lists with reduced visibility across those lists. Think about going to some social event where you don't know anyone. Is it easier to enter a place that is already buzzing with activity or a place with a handful of people talking quietly in corners? Is it more fun to be in a place where you are confident that you "fit" because you can see the behavior of others or to be in a place where you feel everyone is watching (and judging?) because there are so few people you have to define the place?
Some of you will be comfortable when it is quiet, but you are the exception.
[ASIDE] Realtime communications are not inclusive. People who do not speak English natively can struggle and those in different timezones find themselves unable to communicate (plus splitting across too many forms of communication can be problematic). Such things can be used and are useful for specific purposes, but they must never become the primary source of collabroation ("if it didn't happen on the list, it didn't happen").
-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 10:33 AM
To: Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>; Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
Cc: Mifos software development <mi...@lists.sourceforge.net>; mifos-users <mi...@lists.sourceforge.net>; user@fineract.apache.org; dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Circling back to the original topic of discussion on this thread, given the volume on the user mailing list is so low and given the feedback on this thread thus far, I would propose we consolidate into one list and adopt a policy of appropriately tagging messages in the subject line. This hack on a mailing list seems an effective way to achieve our desired aim. If and when, volume grows too much or the dev list becomes unfocused or too chatty, we can set up the separate user list again.
I will let discussion play out a bit more here and then start a separate thread with the proposal and just follow lazy consensus if nobody objects.
If we do proceed ahead with that, we should clearly communicate the change and make known that we have one mailing list for all communications and to have clearly documented the common tags that we want to establish as the norm.
Would the old list just be made an archive?
@Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> Did you have feedback on the topic of unifying into one mailing list instead of dev & user?
Ed
On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 9:23 AM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy> wrote:
> Hi all, +1 on one single list with tags (there are at least 6 lists
> 😶)
>
> For the non-technical contributors like me, that most of my
> contribution to the community happens "out of the list", It will be
> useful to have only one place of reference.
>
> Also, I think we need a Whatsapp group, I am a member of several
> Whatsapp groups on Bitcoin and Blockchain, and they are much more
> efficient and fast to communicate non-technical issues, I've created
> the group, you can join it here:
> https://chat.whatsapp.com/BVsYOq5eOxqLrvbWnQ3Dck
>
> I really enjoyed the presentation
> <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/>
> James
> Dailey shared a couple of months ago, the message that we are on the
> "Open Source Age" is as powerful and meaningful as ever.
>
> More and more Fintechs, Financial Institutions and Banks are joining
> our community and they are our partners and community members, as we
> grow, we need to welcome them, I here propose we can announce each new
> partner that joins our global community, I think Whatsapp group is
> great for that and the community to grow.
>
> We are changing an entire industry as a community because the
> community outperforms the individuals.
>
> Let's keep rocking!!
> Javier
>
> El mié., 10 oct. 2018 a las 13:00, Ed Cable (<ed...@mifos.org>)
> escribió:
>
> > Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on
> > directing appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing
> > lists, it got me thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
> >
> > We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding
> > merit or committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the
> > project. In that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving
> > out non-technical members of the community who might only be
> > subscribed to the user list
> when
> > we treat dev as the primary list for all communications
> (community-related,
> > etc whether they're technical or not).
> >
> > I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want
> > to cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are
> > some
> ways
> > to address this?
> >
> > One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I
> > don't think that is good long-term because as community grows we
> > will have distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
> >
> > I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the
> > fact
> that
> > we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations
> > happen
> on
> > dev
> >
> > Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary
> > list and any public community-related matter or announcement will
> > come through there and that everyone should be subscribed to that
> > list to not miss any key information?
> >
> > Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both
> > lists
> if
> > it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and
> > ensures everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the
> > discussion as input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev
> > <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >
> > CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions
> > based
> on
> > on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that
> > we
> have
> > a larger user-facing community than most more
> > technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
> > Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
> > To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >
> >
> > Hey all,
> >
> > An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
> > dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
> > aware of this as well:
> >
> > https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
> >
> > In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the
> > Fineract project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
> > dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
> > private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
> > will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Myrle
> > Committer, Apache Fineract
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Ed Cable*
> > President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
> > edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
> >
> > *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries |
> > *http://mifos.org <http://facebook.com/mifos>
> > <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
> >
>
--
*Ed Cable*
President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
*Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
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Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org>.
Circling back to the original topic of discussion on this thread, given the
volume on the user mailing list is so low and given the feedback on this
thread thus far, I would propose we consolidate into one list and adopt a
policy of appropriately tagging messages in the subject line. This hack on
a mailing list seems an effective way to achieve our desired aim. If and
when, volume grows too much or the dev list becomes unfocused or too
chatty, we can set up the separate user list again.
I will let discussion play out a bit more here and then start a separate
thread with the proposal and just follow lazy consensus if nobody objects.
If we do proceed ahead with that, we should clearly communicate the change
and make known that we have one mailing list for all communications and to
have clearly documented the common tags that we want to establish as the
norm.
Would the old list just be made an archive?
@Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> Did you have feedback on the topic of
unifying into one mailing list instead of dev & user?
Ed
On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 9:23 AM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy> wrote:
> Hi all, +1 on one single list with tags (there are at least 6 lists 😶)
>
> For the non-technical contributors like me, that most of my contribution to
> the community happens "out of the list", It will be useful to have only one
> place of reference.
>
> Also, I think we need a Whatsapp group, I am a member of several Whatsapp
> groups on Bitcoin and Blockchain, and they are much more efficient and fast
> to communicate non-technical issues, I've created the group, you can join
> it here: https://chat.whatsapp.com/BVsYOq5eOxqLrvbWnQ3Dck
>
> I really enjoyed the presentation
> <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/>
> James
> Dailey shared a couple of months ago, the message that we are on the "Open
> Source Age" is as powerful and meaningful as ever.
>
> More and more Fintechs, Financial Institutions and Banks are joining our
> community and they are our partners and community members, as we grow, we
> need to welcome them, I here propose we can announce each new partner that
> joins our global community, I think Whatsapp group is great for that and
> the community to grow.
>
> We are changing an entire industry as a community because the community
> outperforms the individuals.
>
> Let's keep rocking!!
> Javier
>
> El mié., 10 oct. 2018 a las 13:00, Ed Cable (<ed...@mifos.org>)
> escribió:
>
> > Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on directing
> > appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing lists, it got me
> > thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
> >
> > We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding merit or
> > committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the project. In
> > that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving out non-technical
> > members of the community who might only be subscribed to the user list
> when
> > we treat dev as the primary list for all communications
> (community-related,
> > etc whether they're technical or not).
> >
> > I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want to
> > cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are some
> ways
> > to address this?
> >
> > One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't
> > think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
> > distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
> >
> > I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the fact
> that
> > we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations happen
> on
> > dev
> >
> > Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary list
> > and any public community-related matter or announcement will come through
> > there and that everyone should be subscribed to that list to not miss any
> > key information?
> >
> > Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both lists
> if
> > it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and ensures
> > everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the discussion as
> > input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >
> > CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions based
> on
> > on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that we
> have
> > a larger user-facing community than most more
> > technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
> > Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
> > To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >
> >
> > Hey all,
> >
> > An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
> > dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
> > aware of this as well:
> >
> > https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
> >
> > In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the Fineract
> > project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
> > dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
> > private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
> > will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Myrle
> > Committer, Apache Fineract
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Ed Cable*
> > President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
> > edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
> >
> > *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
> > <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
> >
>
--
*Ed Cable*
President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
*Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
<http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
Repeating (with minor edits for this context) what I have said on
similar topics on other threads:
I don't think a WhatsApp group is a good idea.
The criteria that the ASF looks for in communication
channels used by projects are (in no particular order):
- open to all
- asynchronous
- available off-line
- full history
- searchable
- archived on ASF controlled systems
- low bandwidth / minimal system requirements
E-mail may seem a little 'old school' at times but it is one of the few
technologies that meets all of the above. Which is why most of our
systems are configured to echo stuff back to the relevant mailing list.
These days I'm used to an always on internet connections with speeds in
the 10s of megabits where I don't need to worry about the cost (even
when I am out and about) but it is worth remembering that not everyone
is in that position. It wasn't really that long ago that I could
sometimes be found working on Apache projects via a 9600 bits per second
dial-up connection that I paid for by the second. It was perfectly
possible for me to follow what was going on by connecting for a few
minutes every couple of hours, syncing my email, making a few commits if
I had anything to commit and then disconnecting and continuing to work
off-line. If a large proportion of communication had happened via a
WhatsApp like interface there is no way I would have been able to follow
the project.
I accept that there are times were using a 'real-time' communication
channel is more efficient. However, it excludes every member of the
community that isn't participating in that channel at that point in
time. The default position at the ASF is that it is better for
communication to be a little less efficient for a few in order for the
entire community to participate.
Cheers,
Mark
On 13/10/18 17:23, Javier Borkenztain wrote:
> Hi all, +1 on one single list with tags (there are at least 6 lists 😶)
>
> For the non-technical contributors like me, that most of my contribution to
> the community happens "out of the list", It will be useful to have only one
> place of reference.
>
> Also, I think we need a Whatsapp group, I am a member of several Whatsapp
> groups on Bitcoin and Blockchain, and they are much more efficient and fast
> to communicate non-technical issues, I've created the group, you can join
> it here: https://chat.whatsapp.com/BVsYOq5eOxqLrvbWnQ3Dck
>
> I really enjoyed the presentation
> <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/> James
> Dailey shared a couple of months ago, the message that we are on the "Open
> Source Age" is as powerful and meaningful as ever.
>
> More and more Fintechs, Financial Institutions and Banks are joining our
> community and they are our partners and community members, as we grow, we
> need to welcome them, I here propose we can announce each new partner that
> joins our global community, I think Whatsapp group is great for that and
> the community to grow.
>
> We are changing an entire industry as a community because the community
> outperforms the individuals.
>
> Let's keep rocking!!
> Javier
>
> El mié., 10 oct. 2018 a las 13:00, Ed Cable (<ed...@mifos.org>) escribió:
>
>> Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on directing
>> appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing lists, it got me
>> thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
>>
>> We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding merit or
>> committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the project. In
>> that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving out non-technical
>> members of the community who might only be subscribed to the user list when
>> we treat dev as the primary list for all communications (community-related,
>> etc whether they're technical or not).
>>
>> I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want to
>> cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are some ways
>> to address this?
>>
>> One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't
>> think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
>> distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
>>
>> I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the fact that
>> we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations happen on
>> dev
>>
>> Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary list
>> and any public community-related matter or announcement will come through
>> there and that everyone should be subscribed to that list to not miss any
>> key information?
>>
>> Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both lists if
>> it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and ensures
>> everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the discussion as
>> input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
>>
>> CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions based on
>> on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that we have
>> a larger user-facing community than most more
>> technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
>> Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
>> Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
>> To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
>>
>>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
>> dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
>> aware of this as well:
>>
>> https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
>>
>> In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the Fineract
>> project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
>> dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
>> private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
>> will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Myrle
>> Committer, Apache Fineract
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Ed Cable*
>> President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
>> edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
>>
>> *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
>> <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
>>
>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 10:09 PM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy> wrote:
>
> ...I really enjoyed the presentation
> <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/> James
> Dailey shared a couple of months ago...
Great reference, thank you!
(BTW https://jira.mongodb.org/browse/PYTHON-532 is a fantastic example
of how to handle "difficult" bug reports)
-Bertrand
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 10:09 PM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy> wrote:
>
> ...I really enjoyed the presentation
> <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/> James
> Dailey shared a couple of months ago...
Great reference, thank you!
(BTW https://jira.mongodb.org/browse/PYTHON-532 is a fantastic example
of how to handle "difficult" bug reports)
-Bertrand
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org>.
Circling back to the original topic of discussion on this thread, given the
volume on the user mailing list is so low and given the feedback on this
thread thus far, I would propose we consolidate into one list and adopt a
policy of appropriately tagging messages in the subject line. This hack on
a mailing list seems an effective way to achieve our desired aim. If and
when, volume grows too much or the dev list becomes unfocused or too
chatty, we can set up the separate user list again.
I will let discussion play out a bit more here and then start a separate
thread with the proposal and just follow lazy consensus if nobody objects.
If we do proceed ahead with that, we should clearly communicate the change
and make known that we have one mailing list for all communications and to
have clearly documented the common tags that we want to establish as the
norm.
Would the old list just be made an archive?
@Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> Did you have feedback on the topic of
unifying into one mailing list instead of dev & user?
Ed
On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 9:23 AM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy> wrote:
> Hi all, +1 on one single list with tags (there are at least 6 lists 😶)
>
> For the non-technical contributors like me, that most of my contribution to
> the community happens "out of the list", It will be useful to have only one
> place of reference.
>
> Also, I think we need a Whatsapp group, I am a member of several Whatsapp
> groups on Bitcoin and Blockchain, and they are much more efficient and fast
> to communicate non-technical issues, I've created the group, you can join
> it here: https://chat.whatsapp.com/BVsYOq5eOxqLrvbWnQ3Dck
>
> I really enjoyed the presentation
> <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/>
> James
> Dailey shared a couple of months ago, the message that we are on the "Open
> Source Age" is as powerful and meaningful as ever.
>
> More and more Fintechs, Financial Institutions and Banks are joining our
> community and they are our partners and community members, as we grow, we
> need to welcome them, I here propose we can announce each new partner that
> joins our global community, I think Whatsapp group is great for that and
> the community to grow.
>
> We are changing an entire industry as a community because the community
> outperforms the individuals.
>
> Let's keep rocking!!
> Javier
>
> El mié., 10 oct. 2018 a las 13:00, Ed Cable (<ed...@mifos.org>)
> escribió:
>
> > Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on directing
> > appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing lists, it got me
> > thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
> >
> > We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding merit or
> > committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the project. In
> > that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving out non-technical
> > members of the community who might only be subscribed to the user list
> when
> > we treat dev as the primary list for all communications
> (community-related,
> > etc whether they're technical or not).
> >
> > I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want to
> > cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are some
> ways
> > to address this?
> >
> > One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't
> > think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
> > distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
> >
> > I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the fact
> that
> > we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations happen
> on
> > dev
> >
> > Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary list
> > and any public community-related matter or announcement will come through
> > there and that everyone should be subscribed to that list to not miss any
> > key information?
> >
> > Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both lists
> if
> > it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and ensures
> > everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the discussion as
> > input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >
> > CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions based
> on
> > on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that we
> have
> > a larger user-facing community than most more
> > technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
> > Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
> > To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >
> >
> > Hey all,
> >
> > An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
> > dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
> > aware of this as well:
> >
> > https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
> >
> > In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the Fineract
> > project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
> > dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
> > private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
> > will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Myrle
> > Committer, Apache Fineract
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Ed Cable*
> > President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
> > edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
> >
> > *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
> > <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
> >
>
--
*Ed Cable*
President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
*Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
<http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org>.
Circling back to the original topic of discussion on this thread, given the
volume on the user mailing list is so low and given the feedback on this
thread thus far, I would propose we consolidate into one list and adopt a
policy of appropriately tagging messages in the subject line. This hack on
a mailing list seems an effective way to achieve our desired aim. If and
when, volume grows too much or the dev list becomes unfocused or too
chatty, we can set up the separate user list again.
I will let discussion play out a bit more here and then start a separate
thread with the proposal and just follow lazy consensus if nobody objects.
If we do proceed ahead with that, we should clearly communicate the change
and make known that we have one mailing list for all communications and to
have clearly documented the common tags that we want to establish as the
norm.
Would the old list just be made an archive?
@Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> Did you have feedback on the topic of
unifying into one mailing list instead of dev & user?
Ed
On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 9:23 AM Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy> wrote:
> Hi all, +1 on one single list with tags (there are at least 6 lists 😶)
>
> For the non-technical contributors like me, that most of my contribution to
> the community happens "out of the list", It will be useful to have only one
> place of reference.
>
> Also, I think we need a Whatsapp group, I am a member of several Whatsapp
> groups on Bitcoin and Blockchain, and they are much more efficient and fast
> to communicate non-technical issues, I've created the group, you can join
> it here: https://chat.whatsapp.com/BVsYOq5eOxqLrvbWnQ3Dck
>
> I really enjoyed the presentation
> <http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/>
> James
> Dailey shared a couple of months ago, the message that we are on the "Open
> Source Age" is as powerful and meaningful as ever.
>
> More and more Fintechs, Financial Institutions and Banks are joining our
> community and they are our partners and community members, as we grow, we
> need to welcome them, I here propose we can announce each new partner that
> joins our global community, I think Whatsapp group is great for that and
> the community to grow.
>
> We are changing an entire industry as a community because the community
> outperforms the individuals.
>
> Let's keep rocking!!
> Javier
>
> El mié., 10 oct. 2018 a las 13:00, Ed Cable (<ed...@mifos.org>)
> escribió:
>
> > Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on directing
> > appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing lists, it got me
> > thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
> >
> > We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding merit or
> > committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the project. In
> > that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving out non-technical
> > members of the community who might only be subscribed to the user list
> when
> > we treat dev as the primary list for all communications
> (community-related,
> > etc whether they're technical or not).
> >
> > I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want to
> > cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are some
> ways
> > to address this?
> >
> > One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't
> > think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
> > distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
> >
> > I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the fact
> that
> > we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations happen
> on
> > dev
> >
> > Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary list
> > and any public community-related matter or announcement will come through
> > there and that everyone should be subscribed to that list to not miss any
> > key information?
> >
> > Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both lists
> if
> > it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and ensures
> > everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the discussion as
> > input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >
> > CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions based
> on
> > on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that we
> have
> > a larger user-facing community than most more
> > technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
> > Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
> > To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
> >
> >
> > Hey all,
> >
> > An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
> > dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
> > aware of this as well:
> >
> > https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
> >
> > In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the Fineract
> > project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
> > dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
> > private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
> > will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Myrle
> > Committer, Apache Fineract
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Ed Cable*
> > President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
> > edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
> >
> > *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
> > <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
> >
>
--
*Ed Cable*
President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
*Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
<http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy>.
Hi all, +1 on one single list with tags (there are at least 6 lists 😶)
For the non-technical contributors like me, that most of my contribution to
the community happens "out of the list", It will be useful to have only one
place of reference.
Also, I think we need a Whatsapp group, I am a member of several Whatsapp
groups on Bitcoin and Blockchain, and they are much more efficient and fast
to communicate non-technical issues, I've created the group, you can join
it here: https://chat.whatsapp.com/BVsYOq5eOxqLrvbWnQ3Dck
I really enjoyed the presentation
<http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/> James
Dailey shared a couple of months ago, the message that we are on the "Open
Source Age" is as powerful and meaningful as ever.
More and more Fintechs, Financial Institutions and Banks are joining our
community and they are our partners and community members, as we grow, we
need to welcome them, I here propose we can announce each new partner that
joins our global community, I think Whatsapp group is great for that and
the community to grow.
We are changing an entire industry as a community because the community
outperforms the individuals.
Let's keep rocking!!
Javier
El mié., 10 oct. 2018 a las 13:00, Ed Cable (<ed...@mifos.org>) escribió:
> Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on directing
> appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing lists, it got me
> thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
>
> We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding merit or
> committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the project. In
> that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving out non-technical
> members of the community who might only be subscribed to the user list when
> we treat dev as the primary list for all communications (community-related,
> etc whether they're technical or not).
>
> I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want to
> cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are some ways
> to address this?
>
> One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't
> think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
> distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
>
> I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the fact that
> we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations happen on
> dev
>
> Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary list
> and any public community-related matter or announcement will come through
> there and that everyone should be subscribed to that list to not miss any
> key information?
>
> Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both lists if
> it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and ensures
> everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the discussion as
> input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
>
> CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions based on
> on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that we have
> a larger user-facing community than most more
> technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
> Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
> To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
>
>
> Hey all,
>
> An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
> dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
> aware of this as well:
>
> https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
>
> In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the Fineract
> project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
> dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
> private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
> will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
>
> Best Regards,
> Myrle
> Committer, Apache Fineract
>
>
> --
> *Ed Cable*
> President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
> edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
>
> *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
> <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Javier Galindo <ja...@gmail.com>.
www.google.com
Xavier.Galindo1972
On Oct 11, 2018 04:53, "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
Hi,
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 6:00 PM Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org> wrote:
> ...One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I
don't
> think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
> distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening...
Until that happens it's usually preferable to have a single list, and
split later if really, really needed.
Here are some thoughts about busy lists that might help (shameless
plug, on my blog but the actual thoughts are not from me):
https://grep.codeconsult.ch/2011/12/06/stefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern/
The "single list with tagged messages" pattern also mentioned by Tarun
in this thread is successfully by OpenStack, see [1] for example - I
think that's a great way to keep a community in a single place while
not wasting people's time. One can scan many thread subject lines
quickly if they use such [tags] and if people stick to one topic per
thread that's very efficient.
The key is to allow people to *process* many messages quickly, while
*reading* just the few that are of interest to them.
-Bertrand
[1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-June/thread.html
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Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 6:00 PM Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org> wrote:
> ...One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't
> think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
> distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening...
Until that happens it's usually preferable to have a single list, and
split later if really, really needed.
Here are some thoughts about busy lists that might help (shameless
plug, on my blog but the actual thoughts are not from me):
https://grep.codeconsult.ch/2011/12/06/stefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern/
The "single list with tagged messages" pattern also mentioned by Tarun
in this thread is successfully by OpenStack, see [1] for example - I
think that's a great way to keep a community in a single place while
not wasting people's time. One can scan many thread subject lines
quickly if they use such [tags] and if people stick to one topic per
thread that's very efficient.
The key is to allow people to *process* many messages quickly, while
*reading* just the few that are of interest to them.
-Bertrand
[1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-June/thread.html
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 3:47 PM Shawn Heisey <ap...@elyograg.org> wrote:
> ...I suspect that it's a little
> bit odd within Apache for a dev list to be larger than a user list...
It depends on the "shape" of your community.
The rationale for recommending that (most) Apache podlings initially
get a dev list only is that their users list might be too small to be
viable, resulting in a slightly fragmented community.
Some projects stay like that happily forever, maybe because they don't
really have users who are not also developers, or because they are
small communities.
-Bertrand
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Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Shawn Heisey <ap...@elyograg.org>.
On 10/10/2018 9:59 AM, Ed Cable wrote:
> Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on directing
> appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing lists, it got me
> thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
>
> We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding merit or
> committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the project. In
> that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving out non-technical
> members of the community who might only be subscribed to the user list when
> we treat dev as the primary list for all communications (community-related,
> etc whether they're technical or not).
<snip>
> One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't
> think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
> distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
>
> I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the fact that
> we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations happen on
> dev
Most of my experience is with the Solr mailing lists:
solr-user@lucene.apache.org
dev@lucene.apache.org
The solr-user list has almost five times as many subscribers as the dev
list -- 3577 compared to 756. If you only count human-generated
messages, the solr-user list has MUCH more traffic than the dev list.
Counting computer-generated traffic, such as Jira updates, the dev list
traffic dwarfs the user list.I suspect that most dev subscribers who
have an interest in Solr are subscribed to the solr-user mailing list.
Some of the dev subscribers are only there for Lucene and don't care
about Solr ... most of those are probably subscribed to one of the
Lucene user lists, such as java-user@l.a.o.
How a community gets structured is up to that community, and I have no
desire to tell you how to run yours ... but I suspect that it's a little
bit odd within Apache for a dev list to be larger than a user list.
If you have a committer login, you can see interesting mailing list
statistics from your project here:
https://reporter.apache.org/
My own opinion is pretty simple on how to choose which list to send to:
If the comment or question should be seen or addressed by the entire
community, including the masses of end users, it goes to the user list.
More internal discussions will live (or start) on the dev list. If it's
particularly sensitive, it might need to start on the private (PMC)
list. Most functional/design conversations related to Solr belong on
dev, but sometimes it's valuable to get input from the full community.
Occasionally there are threads on either public list that we will try to
direct to the other list. This happens more frequently on dev than
solr-user.
I also help out on IRC when I can. There's a long-winded description of
how I view that support avenue:
https://wiki.apache.org/solr/IRCChannels
Thanks,
Shawn
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Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Tarun Mudgal <ta...@gmail.com>.
Hi all,
In my opinion, it's better to have a single consolidated list but each
thread would have a tag in the subject.
E.g. [Tech] Regarding tech stuff 1...
[Announcement] Some Announcement...
That would ensure all the info reaching to everyone and also, will give a
clear idea whether the thread pertains to the user or not, based on which
the user can either partake in it or ignore it.
Thanks
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018, 9:30 PM Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org> wrote:
> Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on directing
> appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing lists, it got me
> thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
>
> We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding merit or
> committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the project. In
> that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving out non-technical
> members of the community who might only be subscribed to the user list when
> we treat dev as the primary list for all communications (community-related,
> etc whether they're technical or not).
>
> I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want to
> cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are some ways
> to address this?
>
> One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't
> think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
> distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
>
> I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the fact that
> we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations happen on
> dev
>
> Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary list
> and any public community-related matter or announcement will come through
> there and that everyone should be subscribed to that list to not miss any
> key information?
>
> Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both lists if
> it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and ensures
> everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the discussion as
> input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
>
> CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions based on
> on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that we have
> a larger user-facing community than most more
> technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
> Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
> To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
>
>
> Hey all,
>
> An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
> dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
> aware of this as well:
>
> https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
>
> In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the Fineract
> project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
> dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
> private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
> will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
>
> Best Regards,
> Myrle
> Committer, Apache Fineract
>
>
> --
> *Ed Cable*
> President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
> edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
>
> *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
> <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 6:00 PM Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org> wrote:
> ...One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't
> think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
> distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening...
Until that happens it's usually preferable to have a single list, and
split later if really, really needed.
Here are some thoughts about busy lists that might help (shameless
plug, on my blog but the actual thoughts are not from me):
https://grep.codeconsult.ch/2011/12/06/stefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern/
The "single list with tagged messages" pattern also mentioned by Tarun
in this thread is successfully by OpenStack, see [1] for example - I
think that's a great way to keep a community in a single place while
not wasting people's time. One can scan many thread subject lines
quickly if they use such [tags] and if people stick to one topic per
thread that's very efficient.
The key is to allow people to *process* many messages quickly, while
*reading* just the few that are of interest to them.
-Bertrand
[1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-June/thread.html
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Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Javier Borkenztain <ja...@sero.uy>.
Hi all, +1 on one single list with tags (there are at least 6 lists 😶)
For the non-technical contributors like me, that most of my contribution to
the community happens "out of the list", It will be useful to have only one
place of reference.
Also, I think we need a Whatsapp group, I am a member of several Whatsapp
groups on Bitcoin and Blockchain, and they are much more efficient and fast
to communicate non-technical issues, I've created the group, you can join
it here: https://chat.whatsapp.com/BVsYOq5eOxqLrvbWnQ3Dck
I really enjoyed the presentation
<http://spf13.com/presentation/what-every-open-source-project-needs/> James
Dailey shared a couple of months ago, the message that we are on the "Open
Source Age" is as powerful and meaningful as ever.
More and more Fintechs, Financial Institutions and Banks are joining our
community and they are our partners and community members, as we grow, we
need to welcome them, I here propose we can announce each new partner that
joins our global community, I think Whatsapp group is great for that and
the community to grow.
We are changing an entire industry as a community because the community
outperforms the individuals.
Let's keep rocking!!
Javier
El mié., 10 oct. 2018 a las 13:00, Ed Cable (<ed...@mifos.org>) escribió:
> Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on directing
> appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing lists, it got me
> thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
>
> We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding merit or
> committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the project. In
> that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving out non-technical
> members of the community who might only be subscribed to the user list when
> we treat dev as the primary list for all communications (community-related,
> etc whether they're technical or not).
>
> I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want to
> cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are some ways
> to address this?
>
> One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't
> think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
> distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
>
> I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the fact that
> we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations happen on
> dev
>
> Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary list
> and any public community-related matter or announcement will come through
> there and that everyone should be subscribed to that list to not miss any
> key information?
>
> Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both lists if
> it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and ensures
> everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the discussion as
> input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
>
> CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions based on
> on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that we have
> a larger user-facing community than most more
> technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
> Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
> To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
>
>
> Hey all,
>
> An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
> dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
> aware of this as well:
>
> https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
>
> In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the Fineract
> project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
> dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
> private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
> will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
>
> Best Regards,
> Myrle
> Committer, Apache Fineract
>
>
> --
> *Ed Cable*
> President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
> edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
>
> *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
> <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
>
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 6:00 PM Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org> wrote:
> ...One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't
> think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
> distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening...
Until that happens it's usually preferable to have a single list, and
split later if really, really needed.
Here are some thoughts about busy lists that might help (shameless
plug, on my blog but the actual thoughts are not from me):
https://grep.codeconsult.ch/2011/12/06/stefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern/
The "single list with tagged messages" pattern also mentioned by Tarun
in this thread is successfully by OpenStack, see [1] for example - I
think that's a great way to keep a community in a single place while
not wasting people's time. One can scan many thread subject lines
quickly if they use such [tags] and if people stick to one topic per
thread that's very efficient.
The key is to allow people to *process* many messages quickly, while
*reading* just the few that are of interest to them.
-Bertrand
[1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-June/thread.html
Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists
Posted by Tarun Mudgal <ta...@gmail.com>.
Hi all,
In my opinion, it's better to have a single consolidated list but each
thread would have a tag in the subject.
E.g. [Tech] Regarding tech stuff 1...
[Announcement] Some Announcement...
That would ensure all the info reaching to everyone and also, will give a
clear idea whether the thread pertains to the user or not, based on which
the user can either partake in it or ignore it.
Thanks
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018, 9:30 PM Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org> wrote:
> Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on directing
> appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing lists, it got me
> thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists.
>
> We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding merit or
> committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the project. In
> that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving out non-technical
> members of the community who might only be subscribed to the user list when
> we treat dev as the primary list for all communications (community-related,
> etc whether they're technical or not).
>
> I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want to
> cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are some ways
> to address this?
>
> One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't
> think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have
> distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening.
>
> I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the fact that
> we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations happen on
> dev
>
> Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary list
> and any public community-related matter or announcement will come through
> there and that everyone should be subscribed to that list to not miss any
> key information?
>
> Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both lists if
> it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and ensures
> everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the discussion as
> input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
>
> CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions based on
> on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that we have
> a larger user-facing community than most more
> technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM
> Subject: Escalation guide for project issues
> To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
>
>
> Hey all,
>
> An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on
> dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was
> aware of this as well:
>
> https://www.apache.org/board/escalation
>
> In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the Fineract
> project. Discussion should be done openly, on the
> dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases,
> private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly
> will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle.
>
> Best Regards,
> Myrle
> Committer, Apache Fineract
>
>
> --
> *Ed Cable*
> President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
> edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
>
> *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
> <http://facebook.com/mifos> <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
>