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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com> on 2001/03/12 21:57:58 UTC
status?
what is the status of integrating ted's changes into the main website?
when is the next meeting?
who is on first?
what is on second?
-jon
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Re: status?
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
At 04:52 13/3/01 +0100, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
>Hi Pete,
>
>Voting is a serious matter. The results of a vote should be crystal clear as
>ultimately it is the vote that allow us to make clear cut choices. The
results
>of a vote should not be tainted with uncertainty.
They are not ;)
>I am being square about this but voting rules are important and +0 and -0
>flavors unnecessarily dilute/muddy the results of a vote.
I am not sure why you think that - I think that they actually clarify the
results ;)
>It seems to me that we (Apache) have a tradition of mixing a call for
>volunteers with a decision making (voting) process. A call for volunteers
for
>a release can be made with a [POLL] and a decision to make a release can be
>made with a [VOTE]. OK, I think I hammered my point for long enough...
More overhead may work for major decisions but for minor decisions it can
get unpalatable. I have seen some votes last for about 3 months - adding
any more overhead would be ludicrous ;) It would be nice perhaps if we had
some support tools to enable us to make decisions like this at Apache
(similar to what was discussed on library-dev with respect to JakartaForge)
but until then I don't want to see more talk - I want to see action ;)
Cheers,
Pete
*-----------------------------------------------------*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof." |
| - John Kenneth Galbraith |
*-----------------------------------------------------*
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Re: status?
Posted by Ted Husted <ne...@husted.com>.
Ceki Gülcü wrote:
>Does this mean that equals rights for women should be abolished because there are just too few men to promote it?
In a volunteer meritocracy, equal rights would not exist if someone did
not implement it. Under the Apache model, they would announce they are
working on some equal rights code, and people might respond to that with
voting symbols. But that would not be a vote. (We really only vote on
actual code or documentation, not hypotheticals.) When someone committed
an equal rights patch to the CVS, it would be a product change subject
to lazy consensus. If another committer tossed a (-1) at that, then we
would have a consensus vote on whether equal rights stay or go.
Once implemented, abolishing equal rights would be another product
change. If someone removed it, someone else would need to post a (-1)
before we'd have another consensus vote.
The reason we work together is peer review of our work. Some committers
like the shades of meaning that (-0) and (+0) represent. If someone sees
a bunch of (-0)'s, they might take the hint and refactor their approach.
It helps to keep us all on the same page. We could change the
guidelines, but I doubt that would change how people cast their votes.
The muddy waters would then ~continue~ to be the difference between all
these (-0) and (+0) votes.
> It seems to me that we (Apache) have a tradition of mixing a call for volunteers with a decision making (voting) process. A call for volunteers for a release can be made with a [POLL] and a decision to make a release can be made with a [VOTE].
People sometimes take polls before making a major decision that will
significantly affect everyone. For example, whether to support 1.1 or
move onto 1.2. In the end, a decision regarding a product change,
showstopper, release plan issue, or public release is made by tallying
the (+1)s and the (-1)s. Anything (0) just doesn't count.
If there are tasks which a committer thinks is worthwhile, but cannot
work on personally in the immediate future, a good approach is to start
a TODO list as part of the documentation package. This tells people we
have already thought of that, and just need people to work on it. This
can also be a good way to manage the final TODOs in a Release Plan.
-Ted.
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Re: status?
Posted by Ceki Gülcü <cg...@qos.ch>.
Hi Pete,
Voting is a serious matter. The results of a vote should be crystal clear as ultimately it is the vote that allow us to make clear cut choices. The results of a vote should not be tainted with uncertainty.
There is a difference between believing/supporting an idea and actively contributing to make it happen. To the question, do you support equal rights for women, I would answer without hesitation, YES. However, I cannot remember an occasion where I actually actively did something to promote equality for women. (To my defense, I can't remember an occasion where I actively undermined it either.) Does this mean that equals rights for women should be abolished because there are just too few men to promote it?
By taking a vote we are making a choice: between good and bad, right and wrong. A vote should not be coupled to whether the subject of the vote is feasible. If we think something right but no one actually makes it happen, then tough. We are all volunteers after all. I assume that if we voted whether one was for "world peace", we would only get positive answers. Attaining world peace is a different matter. The vote allows us to determine the will of the "people". Once the direction is clearly set, then people can work to achieve the set goal.
I am being square about this but voting rules are important and +0 and -0 flavors unnecessarily dilute/muddy the results of a vote.
At 13:35 13.03.2001 +1100, Peter Donald wrote:
>At 02:49 13/3/01 +0100, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
>>This is one hell of a document. I have one comment regarding the four voting
>>colors +1, +0, -0, -1. Why do we have +0 and -0?
>
>Because it forces some semblance of accountability. If I +1 something (say
>a release) but have no intention of supporting it then something is wrong.
It seems to me that we (Apache) have a tradition of mixing a call for volunteers with a decision making (voting) process. A call for volunteers for a release can be made with a [POLL] and a decision to make a release can be made with a [VOTE]. OK, I think I hammered my point for long enough... Cheers, Ceki
>We need to be able to distinguish between those who think the move is a
>good one and those who will actually implement it. If no one volunteers to
>implement the item then it should fail.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Pete
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Re: status?
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
At 02:49 13/3/01 +0100, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
>This is one hell of a document. I have one comment regarding the four voting
>colors +1, +0, -0, -1. Why do we have +0 and -0?
Because it forces some semblance of accountability. If I +1 something (say
a release) but have no intention of supporting it then something is wrong.
We need to be able to distinguish between those who think the move is a
good one and those who will actually implement it. If no one volunteers to
implement the item then it should fail.
Cheers,
Pete
*-----------------------------------------------------*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof." |
| - John Kenneth Galbraith |
*-----------------------------------------------------*
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Re: status?
Posted by Ceki Gülcü <cg...@qos.ch>.
At 17:14 12.03.2001 -0500, Ted Husted wrote:
>Jon Stevens wrote:
>> what is the status of integrating ted's changes into the main website?
>
>If we're talking about
>
>< http://jakarta.apache.org/site/proposal.html >
This is one hell of a document. I have one comment regarding the four voting colors +1, +0, -0, -1. Why do we have +0 and -0? I propose instead:
+1 = yes
0 = abstain
-1 = no
A vote is vote and better not be charged with nebulous secondary meanings.
Similarly, for action items, we currently have
+1 "The action should be performed, and I will help."
+0 "Abstain," "I support the action but I can't help."
-0 "Abstain," "I don't support the action but I can't help with an alternative."
-1 "The action should not be performed and I am offering an explanation or alternative."
I suggest this should be changed to:
+1 = yes, good idea
0 = abstain, I don't have a clear opinion on the matter
-1 = veto, bad idea
Restricting the voting to the above 3 colors decouples the vote from the engagement of the voter to the idea. One can express engagement in plain English, as in
+1, I think foobar is a good idea but I have no time to help.
or
0, I have no idea, foobar is outside my turf
or
0, I don't have a strong opinion either way; there are both advantages and disadvantages in adopting foobar but I will actively support foobar if it gets accepted.
or
+1, foobar is great I will actively support it
I presume that there is long Apache tradition for voting in 4 flavors. However, it does not hurt to challenge the established ways from time to time. :-) Ceki
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Re: status?
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 3/12/01 2:14 PM, "Ted Husted" <ne...@husted.com> wrote:
> I need to fix my installation of Anakia so I can compile the main site
> before making any other changes myself.
There is no "installation of Anakia". Check the module out of CVS and run
it.
-jon
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Re: status?
Posted by Ted Husted <ne...@husted.com>.
Jon Stevens wrote:
> what is the status of integrating ted's changes into the main website?
If we're talking about
< http://jakarta.apache.org/site/proposal.html >
my last message regarding that was
< http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg00000.html
>
I need to fix my installation of Anakia so I can compile the main site
before making any other changes myself.
Then I guess we would vote or something.
> when is the next meeting?
Meeting?
> who is on first?
Yes.
> what is on second?
That's right.
-Ted.
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