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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net> on 2009/11/10 09:23:29 UTC
Side Discussion; Mentorship [PROPOSAL][VOTE] Subversion
Greg Stein wrote:
>
> Sponsors
> * Champion: Greg Stein
Cool
> * Nominated Mentors: Justin Erenkrantz, Greg Stein, Sander Striker, Daniel Rall
Once again, caution against committers == mentors (== 'project leads').
It puts certain committers above others, an inequitable situation.
If the PPMC is 100% in support of 'respecting' this list of mentors with
respect to adapting to life-in-the-ASF, then fine. But it's a situation
that always concerns me. The incubator PMC could easily find mentors who
are supportive of this proposal, but not in dev/leadership roles within
the SVN community.
> * Sponsor:
I am certain the APR project would entertain a vote to sponsor this podling
through graduation, if that is useful.
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Re: Side Discussion; Mentorship [PROPOSAL][VOTE] Subversion
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 07:06, Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 8:23 AM, William A. Rowe, Jr.
> <wr...@rowe-clan.net> wrote:
>> Greg Stein wrote:
>>>
>>> Sponsors
>>> * Champion: Greg Stein
>>
>> Cool
>>
>>> * Nominated Mentors: Justin Erenkrantz, Greg Stein, Sander Striker, Daniel Rall
>>
>> Once again, caution against committers == mentors (== 'project leads').
>> It puts certain committers above others, an inequitable situation.
>
> But it has the huge advantage of making sure that the mentors are
> actively engaged all the time, know quite a lot about the podling's
> situation, and are already well-known and trusted by the project's
> community. I would say the very clear benefits far outweigh the
> potential problems, and I prefer the model like that.
>
> Most communities have situations where certain people have more power
> than others whether officially or in practice, and communities that
> can't deal with that have other issues.
Very well said!
Cheers,
-g
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Re: Side Discussion; Mentorship [PROPOSAL][VOTE] Subversion
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 8:23 AM, William A. Rowe, Jr.
<wr...@rowe-clan.net> wrote:
> Greg Stein wrote:
>>
>> Sponsors
>> * Champion: Greg Stein
>
> Cool
>
>> * Nominated Mentors: Justin Erenkrantz, Greg Stein, Sander Striker, Daniel Rall
>
> Once again, caution against committers == mentors (== 'project leads').
> It puts certain committers above others, an inequitable situation.
But it has the huge advantage of making sure that the mentors are
actively engaged all the time, know quite a lot about the podling's
situation, and are already well-known and trusted by the project's
community. I would say the very clear benefits far outweigh the
potential problems, and I prefer the model like that.
Most communities have situations where certain people have more power
than others whether officially or in practice, and communities that
can't deal with that have other issues.
In any case, a good way to offset any perceived risk is probably to
have some lively discussion between the mentors and the rest of the
incubator. So, risk mitigated, I say :)
ciao,
Leo
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Re: Side Discussion; Mentorship [PROPOSAL][VOTE] Subversion
Posted by "William A. Rowe Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Mark Phippard wrote:
>
> As an SVN committer, I can say that this is not something that is of
> concern to me (and I dare say I probably speak for all or at least
> most of the other committers when I say that).
Thanks for that reassurance...
> Finally, I will also add that we have had our SVN Corp for many years
> now and that has always involved having five of our committers in
> "Board of Director" roles for the corporation and that has not created
> any problems of inequity.
Another example of how SVN is already a bit unique in how we incubate.
But I call this out on every occasion, because mentor-as-lead-developer
leads segways into a BDfL more often than not. In this case I'm not really
worried, because I know from experience that SVN committers don't shy away
from expressing their opinions :)
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Re: Side Discussion; Mentorship [PROPOSAL][VOTE] Subversion
Posted by Mark Phippard <ma...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 3:23 AM, William A. Rowe, Jr.
<wr...@rowe-clan.net> wrote:
> Greg Stein wrote:
>>
>> Sponsors
>> * Champion: Greg Stein
>
> Cool
>
>> * Nominated Mentors: Justin Erenkrantz, Greg Stein, Sander Striker, Daniel Rall
>
> Once again, caution against committers == mentors (== 'project leads').
> It puts certain committers above others, an inequitable situation.
As an SVN committer, I can say that this is not something that is of
concern to me (and I dare say I probably speak for all or at least
most of the other committers when I say that). As Greg points out, of
the nominated mentors, Greg is the only one that has been actively
committing code in the last year. So it is great for us to have
committers that have the experience (and are willing) to help mentor
us through this process.
Finally, I will also add that we have had our SVN Corp for many years
now and that has always involved having five of our committers in
"Board of Director" roles for the corporation and that has not created
any problems of inequity.
--
Thanks
Mark Phippard
http://markphip.blogspot.com/
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Re: Side Discussion; Mentorship [PROPOSAL][VOTE] Subversion
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 03:23, William A. Rowe, Jr. <wr...@rowe-clan.net> wrote:
>...
>> * Nominated Mentors: Justin Erenkrantz, Greg Stein, Sander Striker, Daniel Rall
>
> Once again, caution against committers == mentors (== 'project leads').
> It puts certain committers above others, an inequitable situation.
We have 70 committers. Of those 55 are (what the ASF would call) PMC
members. The above four names are a *very* small portion of the
"leadership" of the svn community. Justin and Sander are *way* more
active here at the ASF than in the SVN community. They are present to
"show the ropes" more than to assert themselves in the svn community.
If anything, my role as Champion and the constant engagement here is
altering my role within svn. But I don't actually worry about it
because svn has operated for over nine years without ever having
"leaders". We certainly have *more active* developers, which
changes/morphs over time, but those developers have never been
accorded anything more than any other developer in the community.
> If the PPMC is 100% in support of 'respecting' this list of mentors with
> respect to adapting to life-in-the-ASF, then fine. But it's a situation
Yes, they are. The proposal was drafted mid-August. There has been
plenty of time for the "PPMC" to review, discuss, and tweak.
> that always concerns me. The incubator PMC could easily find mentors who
> are supportive of this proposal, but not in dev/leadership roles within
> the SVN community.
>
>> * Sponsor:
>
> I am certain the APR project would entertain a vote to sponsor this podling
> through graduation, if that is useful.
Thanks, but the general rule is that if you're going for TLP, then the
Incubator is the sponsor. We don't intend to become a sub-project of
APR :-P
Listing the sponsor as the Board would be the best description here,
but I think that would really require some kind of "sure" from the
Board, which we don't have, nor do I think would be a good precedent.
The Incubator is sort of a proxy for the Board here.
Cheers,
-g
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