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Posted to dev@directmemory.apache.org by "Raffaele P. Guidi" <ra...@gmail.com> on 2011/10/12 22:42:41 UTC

confluence?

Hi guys, having worked on the wiki for a while I have to say that I find
moinmoin a bit annoying... is there a way to remove security questions? Or
could we just switch to confluence? Or am I the only one with a bad feeling
on it?

Ciao,
    R

Re: confluence?

Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>.
+1 for Confluence, Moinmoin is a PITA, and an easier to use the doc 
editing tool means more docs of better quality ;-)

And BTW, hello all! First post on this list!

Sylvain

Le 13/10/11 01:01, Raffaele P. Guidi a écrit :
> Agreed.
>
> Ciao,
>      R
>
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Tim Williams<wi...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
>> <ra...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>> The real value of confluence would be integrating with jira and svn (with
>>> the appropriate plugins). I would say that if this is not common practice
>> in
>>> the ASF removing captchas from moinmoin will suffice.
>> Honestly, I don't use either but both are supported by the infra team
>> so if that's what the community is most comfortable with I'd say let's
>> switch now before we have a content-migration challenge.  Shall we
>> give it some time for other opinions to surface, then I (or someone)
>> can submit a request to Infra?  That work?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --tim
>>


-- 
Sylvain Wallez - http://bluxte.net


Re: confluence?

Posted by Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>.
Raffaele, are you sure you have an acct?  that id couldn't be found,
can you double check pls?
Thanks,
--tim

On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 7:59 AM, Raffaele P. Guidi
<ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Tim, mine is raffaeleguidi.
>
> Thanks,
>  R
>
> On Sunday, October 16, 2011, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The Confluence site is now up:
>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/DIRECTMEMORY/Index
>>
>> I could only find Confluence Id's for those that are in the issue[1].
>> I thought the admins would be able to add to the committer group but I
>> guess not so either ping infra on irc, add a new JIRA, or let me know
>> what your id is and I'll do one of the two for you:)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --tim
>>
>> [1] - https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4037
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:14 PM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>> Ok, ticket is submitted at:
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4037
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> --tim
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:56 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>>> Well, the answer seems clear, I'll put in a request when I get a
>>>> chance unless someone beats me to it:)
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> --tim
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
>>>> <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ciao,
>>>>>    R
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
>>>>>> <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The real value of confluence would be integrating with jira and svn
> (with
>>>>>> > the appropriate plugins). I would say that if this is not common
> practice
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> > the ASF removing captchas from moinmoin will suffice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Honestly, I don't use either but both are supported by the infra team
>>>>>> so if that's what the community is most comfortable with I'd say let's
>>>>>> switch now before we have a content-migration challenge.  Shall we
>>>>>> give it some time for other opinions to surface, then I (or someone)
>>>>>> can submit a request to Infra?  That work?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> --tim
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: confluence?

Posted by Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>.
Hi Maurizio,
You've been added now...

Thanks,
--tim

On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 9:02 AM, Maurizio Cucchiara
<ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My confluence id is maurizio.cucchiara.
> Thx Tim for taking care of.
>
> Sent from my mobile device, so please excuse typos and brevity.
>
> Maurizio Cucchiara
>
> Il giorno 16/ott/2011 13.59, "Raffaele P. Guidi" <ra...@gmail.com>
> ha scritto:
>
>> Hi Tim, mine is raffaeleguidi.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>  R
>>
>> On Sunday, October 16, 2011, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > The Confluence site is now up:
>> >
>> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/DIRECTMEMORY/Index
>> >
>> > I could only find Confluence Id's for those that are in the issue[1].
>> > I thought the admins would be able to add to the committer group but I
>> > guess not so either ping infra on irc, add a new JIRA, or let me know
>> > what your id is and I'll do one of the two for you:)
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > --tim
>> >
>> > [1] - https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4037
>> >
>> > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:14 PM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> Ok, ticket is submitted at:
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4037
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> --tim
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:56 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>> Well, the answer seems clear, I'll put in a request when I get a
>> >>> chance unless someone beats me to it:)
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >>> --tim
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
>> >>> <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> Agreed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Ciao,
>> >>>>    R
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
>> >>>>> <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > The real value of confluence would be integrating with jira and svn
>> (with
>> >>>>> > the appropriate plugins). I would say that if this is not common
>> practice
>> >>>>> in
>> >>>>> > the ASF removing captchas from moinmoin will suffice.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Honestly, I don't use either but both are supported by the infra team
>> >>>>> so if that's what the community is most comfortable with I'd say
>> let's
>> >>>>> switch now before we have a content-migration challenge.  Shall we
>> >>>>> give it some time for other opinions to surface, then I (or someone)
>> >>>>> can submit a request to Infra?  That work?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>> --tim
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>

Re: confluence?

Posted by Maurizio Cucchiara <ma...@gmail.com>.
My confluence id is maurizio.cucchiara.
Thx Tim for taking care of.

Sent from my mobile device, so please excuse typos and brevity.

Maurizio Cucchiara

Il giorno 16/ott/2011 13.59, "Raffaele P. Guidi" <ra...@gmail.com>
ha scritto:

> Hi Tim, mine is raffaeleguidi.
>
> Thanks,
>  R
>
> On Sunday, October 16, 2011, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The Confluence site is now up:
> >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/DIRECTMEMORY/Index
> >
> > I could only find Confluence Id's for those that are in the issue[1].
> > I thought the admins would be able to add to the committer group but I
> > guess not so either ping infra on irc, add a new JIRA, or let me know
> > what your id is and I'll do one of the two for you:)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > --tim
> >
> > [1] - https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4037
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:14 PM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Ok, ticket is submitted at:
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4037
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> --tim
> >>
> >> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:56 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> Well, the answer seems clear, I'll put in a request when I get a
> >>> chance unless someone beats me to it:)
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> --tim
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
> >>> <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Agreed.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ciao,
> >>>>    R
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
> >>>>> <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > The real value of confluence would be integrating with jira and svn
> (with
> >>>>> > the appropriate plugins). I would say that if this is not common
> practice
> >>>>> in
> >>>>> > the ASF removing captchas from moinmoin will suffice.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Honestly, I don't use either but both are supported by the infra team
> >>>>> so if that's what the community is most comfortable with I'd say
> let's
> >>>>> switch now before we have a content-migration challenge.  Shall we
> >>>>> give it some time for other opinions to surface, then I (or someone)
> >>>>> can submit a request to Infra?  That work?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> --tim
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>

Re: confluence?

Posted by "Raffaele P. Guidi" <ra...@gmail.com>.
Hi Tim, mine is raffaeleguidi.

Thanks,
  R

On Sunday, October 16, 2011, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Confluence site is now up:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/DIRECTMEMORY/Index
>
> I could only find Confluence Id's for those that are in the issue[1].
> I thought the admins would be able to add to the committer group but I
> guess not so either ping infra on irc, add a new JIRA, or let me know
> what your id is and I'll do one of the two for you:)
>
> Thanks,
> --tim
>
> [1] - https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4037
>
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:14 PM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>> Ok, ticket is submitted at:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4037
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --tim
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:56 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>> Well, the answer seems clear, I'll put in a request when I get a
>>> chance unless someone beats me to it:)
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> --tim
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
>>> <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Agreed.
>>>>
>>>> Ciao,
>>>>    R
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
>>>>> <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The real value of confluence would be integrating with jira and svn
(with
>>>>> > the appropriate plugins). I would say that if this is not common
practice
>>>>> in
>>>>> > the ASF removing captchas from moinmoin will suffice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Honestly, I don't use either but both are supported by the infra team
>>>>> so if that's what the community is most comfortable with I'd say let's
>>>>> switch now before we have a content-migration challenge.  Shall we
>>>>> give it some time for other opinions to surface, then I (or someone)
>>>>> can submit a request to Infra?  That work?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> --tim
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: confluence?

Posted by Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>.
The Confluence site is now up:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/DIRECTMEMORY/Index

I could only find Confluence Id's for those that are in the issue[1].
I thought the admins would be able to add to the committer group but I
guess not so either ping infra on irc, add a new JIRA, or let me know
what your id is and I'll do one of the two for you:)

Thanks,
--tim

[1] - https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4037

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:14 PM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, ticket is submitted at: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4037
>
> Thanks,
> --tim
>
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:56 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Well, the answer seems clear, I'll put in a request when I get a
>> chance unless someone beats me to it:)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --tim
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
>> <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Agreed.
>>>
>>> Ciao,
>>>    R
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
>>>> <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > The real value of confluence would be integrating with jira and svn (with
>>>> > the appropriate plugins). I would say that if this is not common practice
>>>> in
>>>> > the ASF removing captchas from moinmoin will suffice.
>>>>
>>>> Honestly, I don't use either but both are supported by the infra team
>>>> so if that's what the community is most comfortable with I'd say let's
>>>> switch now before we have a content-migration challenge.  Shall we
>>>> give it some time for other opinions to surface, then I (or someone)
>>>> can submit a request to Infra?  That work?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> --tim
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: confluence?

Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
Thanks Tim!

On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 2:14 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, ticket is submitted at: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4037
>
> Thanks,
> --tim
>
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:56 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Well, the answer seems clear, I'll put in a request when I get a
>> chance unless someone beats me to it:)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --tim
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
>> <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Agreed.
>>>
>>> Ciao,
>>>    R
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
>>>> <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > The real value of confluence would be integrating with jira and svn (with
>>>> > the appropriate plugins). I would say that if this is not common practice
>>>> in
>>>> > the ASF removing captchas from moinmoin will suffice.
>>>>
>>>> Honestly, I don't use either but both are supported by the infra team
>>>> so if that's what the community is most comfortable with I'd say let's
>>>> switch now before we have a content-migration challenge.  Shall we
>>>> give it some time for other opinions to surface, then I (or someone)
>>>> can submit a request to Infra?  That work?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> --tim
>>>>
>>>
>>
>



-- 
http://www.grobmeier.de

Re: confluence?

Posted by Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>.
Ok, ticket is submitted at: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4037

Thanks,
--tim

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:56 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, the answer seems clear, I'll put in a request when I get a
> chance unless someone beats me to it:)
>
> Thanks,
> --tim
>
> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
> <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Agreed.
>>
>> Ciao,
>>    R
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
>>> <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > The real value of confluence would be integrating with jira and svn (with
>>> > the appropriate plugins). I would say that if this is not common practice
>>> in
>>> > the ASF removing captchas from moinmoin will suffice.
>>>
>>> Honestly, I don't use either but both are supported by the infra team
>>> so if that's what the community is most comfortable with I'd say let's
>>> switch now before we have a content-migration challenge.  Shall we
>>> give it some time for other opinions to surface, then I (or someone)
>>> can submit a request to Infra?  That work?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> --tim
>>>
>>
>

Re: confluence?

Posted by Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>.
Well, the answer seems clear, I'll put in a request when I get a
chance unless someone beats me to it:)

Thanks,
--tim

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
<ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Agreed.
>
> Ciao,
>    R
>
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
>> <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > The real value of confluence would be integrating with jira and svn (with
>> > the appropriate plugins). I would say that if this is not common practice
>> in
>> > the ASF removing captchas from moinmoin will suffice.
>>
>> Honestly, I don't use either but both are supported by the infra team
>> so if that's what the community is most comfortable with I'd say let's
>> switch now before we have a content-migration challenge.  Shall we
>> give it some time for other opinions to surface, then I (or someone)
>> can submit a request to Infra?  That work?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --tim
>>
>

Re: confluence?

Posted by "Raffaele P. Guidi" <ra...@gmail.com>.
Agreed.

Ciao,
    R

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
> <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > The real value of confluence would be integrating with jira and svn (with
> > the appropriate plugins). I would say that if this is not common practice
> in
> > the ASF removing captchas from moinmoin will suffice.
>
> Honestly, I don't use either but both are supported by the infra team
> so if that's what the community is most comfortable with I'd say let's
> switch now before we have a content-migration challenge.  Shall we
> give it some time for other opinions to surface, then I (or someone)
> can submit a request to Infra?  That work?
>
> Thanks,
> --tim
>

Re: confluence?

Posted by Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
<ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The real value of confluence would be integrating with jira and svn (with
> the appropriate plugins). I would say that if this is not common practice in
> the ASF removing captchas from moinmoin will suffice.

Honestly, I don't use either but both are supported by the infra team
so if that's what the community is most comfortable with I'd say let's
switch now before we have a content-migration challenge.  Shall we
give it some time for other opinions to surface, then I (or someone)
can submit a request to Infra?  That work?

Thanks,
--tim

Re: confluence?

Posted by "Raffaele P. Guidi" <ra...@gmail.com>.
The real value of confluence would be integrating with jira and svn (with
the appropriate plugins). I would say that if this is not common practice in
the ASF removing captchas from moinmoin will suffice.

Thanks,
    R

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:13 PM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 4:42 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
> <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi guys, having worked on the wiki for a while I have to say that I find
> > moinmoin a bit annoying... is there a way to remove security questions?
> Or
> > could we just switch to confluence? Or am I the only one with a bad
> feeling
> > on it?
>
> Hi Raffaele,
> Do you mean the captcha phrase for edits?  Gav mentioned to just
> reopen if we wanted to remove that[1] - which, I presume would come
> with more spam.  Anyway, it's early and a good time to switch if
> that's what decided - it's likely to only annoy infra@ a little bit:)
> The lesson for mentors is to find out what we want before creating the
> infra ticket I suppose... do you want to try it with captcha off or
> propose to switch or?
>
> Thanks,
> --tim
>
> [1] - https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4003
>

Re: confluence?

Posted by Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 4:42 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
<ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi guys, having worked on the wiki for a while I have to say that I find
> moinmoin a bit annoying... is there a way to remove security questions? Or
> could we just switch to confluence? Or am I the only one with a bad feeling
> on it?

Hi Raffaele,
Do you mean the captcha phrase for edits?  Gav mentioned to just
reopen if we wanted to remove that[1] - which, I presume would come
with more spam.  Anyway, it's early and a good time to switch if
that's what decided - it's likely to only annoy infra@ a little bit:)
The lesson for mentors is to find out what we want before creating the
infra ticket I suppose... do you want to try it with captcha off or
propose to switch or?

Thanks,
--tim

[1] - https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4003

Re: confluence?

Posted by Daniel Manzke <da...@googlemail.com>.
No I'm on totally on your side. :)

2011/10/12 Raffaele P. Guidi <ra...@gmail.com>

> Hi guys, having worked on the wiki for a while I have to say that I find
> moinmoin a bit annoying... is there a way to remove security questions? Or
> could we just switch to confluence? Or am I the only one with a bad feeling
> on it?
>
> Ciao,
>     R
>



-- 
Viele Grüße/Best Regards

Daniel Manzke

Re: confluence?

Posted by Daniel Manzke <da...@googlemail.com>.
You got a go :)

2011/10/13 Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>

> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
> <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi guys, having worked on the wiki for a while I have to say that I find
> > moinmoin a bit annoying... is there a way to remove security questions?
> Or
> > could we just switch to confluence? Or am I the only one with a bad
> feeling
> > on it?
>
> Confluence is Motörhead, MoinMoin is Justin Bieber.
>
> Cheers
> Christian
>
> >
> > Ciao,
> >    R
> >
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.grobmeier.de
>



-- 
Viele Grüße/Best Regards

Daniel Manzke

Re: confluence?

Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Raffaele P. Guidi
<ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi guys, having worked on the wiki for a while I have to say that I find
> moinmoin a bit annoying... is there a way to remove security questions? Or
> could we just switch to confluence? Or am I the only one with a bad feeling
> on it?

Confluence is Motörhead, MoinMoin is Justin Bieber.

Cheers
Christian

>
> Ciao,
>    R
>



-- 
http://www.grobmeier.de