[cforms] - released in 2.1.8?

[Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>]

Hi:

Was the <fd:suggestion-list> for cforms released in 2.1.8? I cannot find 
samples of it at cocoon.zones. The suggestion list was part of Sylvain's 
presentation in GT2005. At the same time, I am aware of the decision to 
drop scritpaculous support in cocoon.

What is the status of all of this?

Best Regards,

Antonio Gallardo.

Re: [cforms] - released in 2.1.8?

[Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>]

Max Pfingsthorn wrote:
> On 11/20/05 10:28 AM, "Antonio Gallardo" <ag...@agssa.net> wrote:
>
> ...
>   
>> About Dojo, one of the concerns is that it takes longer initializing on
>> the client. Maybe it is just due the internet wire. Let me explain,
>> seems like dojo use a load on demand scheme to load the required JS
>> files, hence it connects back to the server and this takes time, making
>> the initialization slower. A bug or a feature? Dunno
>>     
>
> Dojo has a "compressor" which is supposed to speed up javascript
> initialization. See [1]. Not sure if it takes care of making dynamic loads
> static, but that would be nice.
>   

In some way it does. Basically, the compressor works with a "profile", 
which contains a number or "dojo.require()" instructions (this loads JS 
code on-demand without <script> tags). The compressor then concatenates 
all the required files and their dependencies in a single JS file that 
is compressed (i.e. whitespace removed and private symbols shrinked).

So the idea is to have the full expanded sources at development time and 
use compressed profiles (for both Dojo and Cocoon JS files) for deployment.

> ... 
>   
>> Then the question is. How we will approach?
>>
>> A. Having our own AJAX code in cocoon
>> B. Using one of the AJAX frameworks outthere.
>>
>> I prefer to go for A. until the dust go out in the AJAX world. Seems
>> like every week is an annuncement of a new AJAX framework now!
>> But if B. is the way to go, then please share with us wich one is the
>> best for us.
>>     
>
> I would definitely go with B. Personally, I think maintaining such a library
> would just be way too much work. Seeing what sort of people work on Dojo, we
> probably can be sure that it will be around and maintained for a while.
>   

Exactly. There are many frameworks and articles emerging every day, but 
most of them are just crap (see [2]). Dojo has been there for some time, 
is developed by experienced JavaScript people (they were doing cool 
stuff before the Ajax hype) and its development is community-driven.

> ...
>   
>> ---------- 0 -----------------
>>
>> Also, with the suggestion-list we can also create a new multivalue
>> widget rendering. One without an selection-list but with one
>> suggestion-list using AJAX.
>> Usecase: You need to define a group of 10 users from a list of 200+
>> potential users. Is this too specialized or do you think it makes sense?
>>     
>
> I like the idea. You mean sort of by populating a list with entries from a
> suggestion-list?
>   

That should be a special styling of the widget, based on the same 
infrastructure used by suggestion-lists. Actually, the main difference 
between selection and suggestion is that selection is a closed choice 
whereas suggestion is an open choice.

Now implementation-wise, we have the problem that the point in the 
pipeline where we know if the full list is needed or not (in the XSL) is 
too far from the generation step (the template). So we either need to 
have a hint for this in the form template and/or definition, or find a 
way to generate the selection-list in the XSL.

Sylvain

> [1] http://dojotoolkit.org/docs/compressor_system.html
>   

[2] http://bluxte.net/blog/2005-11/01-42-13.html

-- 
Sylvain Wallez                        Anyware Technologies
http://bluxte.net                     http://www.anyware-tech.com
Apache Software Foundation Member     Research & Technology Director

Re: [cforms] - released in 2.1.8?

[Max Pfingsthorn <mp...@hippo.nl>]

On 11/20/05 10:28 AM, "Antonio Gallardo" <ag...@agssa.net> wrote:

...
> 
> About Dojo, one of the concerns is that it takes longer initializing on
> the client. Maybe it is just due the internet wire. Let me explain,
> seems like dojo use a load on demand scheme to load the required JS
> files, hence it connects back to the server and this takes time, making
> the initialization slower. A bug or a feature? Dunno

Dojo has a "compressor" which is supposed to speed up javascript
initialization. See [1]. Not sure if it takes care of making dynamic loads
static, but that would be nice.

... 
> Then the question is. How we will approach?
> 
> A. Having our own AJAX code in cocoon
> B. Using one of the AJAX frameworks outthere.
> 
> I prefer to go for A. until the dust go out in the AJAX world. Seems
> like every week is an annuncement of a new AJAX framework now!
> But if B. is the way to go, then please share with us wich one is the
> best for us.

I would definitely go with B. Personally, I think maintaining such a library
would just be way too much work. Seeing what sort of people work on Dojo, we
probably can be sure that it will be around and maintained for a while.

...
> ---------- 0 -----------------
> 
> Also, with the suggestion-list we can also create a new multivalue
> widget rendering. One without an selection-list but with one
> suggestion-list using AJAX.
> Usecase: You need to define a group of 10 users from a list of 200+
> potential users. Is this too specialized or do you think it makes sense?

I like the idea. You mean sort of by populating a list with entries from a
suggestion-list?

Bye!
max

[1] http://dojotoolkit.org/docs/compressor_system.html

Re: [cforms] - released in 2.1.8?

[Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>]

Sylvain, thanks for replying! :-)

I had been playing with some of the AJAX client-side frameworks 
suggested by you (scriptaculous and dojo) . I was looking the internals 
to learn how they works and looking for "what is cool", so we can 
"borrow" for cocoon. ;-)

Scriptaculous is great, but I agree with your scriptaculous concerns.

About Dojo, one of the concerns is that it takes longer initializing on 
the client. Maybe it is just due the internet wire. Let me explain, 
seems like dojo use a load on demand scheme to load the required JS 
files, hence it connects back to the server and this takes time, making 
the initialization slower. A bug or a feature? Dunno. Anyhow, I noted 
that this does not happens with the cute AJAX library currently 
distributed with cocoon. Also, the dojo samples seems to require 
javascript arrays back from the server. Maybe I am wrong and please 
correct me if this is the case. Dojo also seems to be on the same wave 
as your blog about JSON [1].

Then the question is. How we will approach?

A. Having our own AJAX code in cocoon
B. Using one of the AJAX frameworks outthere.

I prefer to go for A. until the dust go out in the AJAX world. Seems 
like every week is an annuncement of a new AJAX framework now!
But if B. is the way to go, then please share with us wich one is the 
best for us.

Please see comments between lines....

Sylvain Wallez wrote:

> Antonio Gallardo wrote:
>
>> Hi:
>>
>> Was the <fd:suggestion-list> for cforms released in 2.1.8? I cannot 
>> find samples of it at cocoon.zones. The suggestion list was part of 
>> Sylvain's presentation in GT2005. At the same time, I am aware of the 
>> decision to drop scritpaculous support in cocoon.
>>
>> What is the status of all of this?
>
>
> The client-side stuff, based on Scriptaculous, was removed. The 
> server-side stuff is still there, but needs more work: it currently 
> based on selection-lists and filters the full list of options 
> according to the user input, which doesn't scale for large datasets. 
> We need a "fileterable" selection list for this purpose.

Yep. Introduce a new parameter to define the max number of items the 
suggestion will send back to the client. For an initial version this 
should be enough.

Later, in a 2nd version or so, we can also add a 2nd parameter to define 
how many rows need to be skipped in the beggining. This can helps us to 
display the "next 20 items".

---------- 0 -----------------

Also, with the suggestion-list we can also create a new multivalue 
widget rendering. One without an selection-list but with one 
suggestion-list using AJAX.
Usecase: You need to define a group of 10 users from a list of 200+ 
potential users. Is this too specialized or do you think it makes sense?

>
> I will work on this in december for a project. Of course, this doesn't 
> prevent other people to join!

:-D
I like to join the effort. I will need some guide. ;-)

Best Regards,

Antonio Gallardo

[1] http://bluxte.net/blog/2005-11/17-49-57.html

Re: [cforms] - released in 2.1.8?

[Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>]

Antonio Gallardo wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Was the <fd:suggestion-list> for cforms released in 2.1.8? I cannot 
> find samples of it at cocoon.zones. The suggestion list was part of 
> Sylvain's presentation in GT2005. At the same time, I am aware of the 
> decision to drop scritpaculous support in cocoon.
>
> What is the status of all of this?

The client-side stuff, based on Scriptaculous, was removed. The 
server-side stuff is still there, but needs more work: it currently 
based on selection-lists and filters the full list of options according 
to the user input, which doesn't scale for large datasets. We need a 
"fileterable" selection list for this purpose.

I will work on this in december for a project. Of course, this doesn't 
prevent other people to join!

Sylvain

-- 
Sylvain Wallez                        Anyware Technologies
http://people.apache.org/~sylvain     http://www.anyware-tech.com
Apache Software Foundation Member     Research & Technology Director