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Posted to dev@perl.apache.org by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> on 2004/11/21 18:09:07 UTC
can someone explain the new modperl svn layout?
I'm totally confused. Can someone who was working with infrastructure at
apachecon explain the new layout of modperl projects under svn. I'm
viewing http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl and it doesn't make any
sense to me. All I can see is:
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/docs/
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/
which doesn't seem to be right at all, why modperl and not modperl-2.0?
the two generations are totally unrelated, so there is no point making
those 2 different branches. Why the docs are nested inside modperl?
It should be something like (1):
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl-docs
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl-2.0
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl-1.0
If we are planning to do a different nesting to accomodate other projects
it could be (2):
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/docs
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/2.0
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/1.0
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/embperl/1.0
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/embperl/2.0
...
In the future for this kind of grand changes please post a plan of things
you are going to do *before* doing them. This is a huge change and it
already wastes a huge amount of our time :( sorry if it feels like I'm
screaming, but I feel very blind at the moment, because I have no idea
what's going on.
--
__________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas@stason.org http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com
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Re: can someone explain the new modperl svn layout?
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
David Wheeler wrote:
> On Nov 22, 2004, at 6:37 AM, Stas Bekman wrote:
>
>>> Really? I for one believe that the docs would be of better overall
>>> quality if they were maintained at the same time as the rest of the
>>> tree. On smaller-scale CPAN modules, I've found that insisting that
>>> contributors provide patches for all three of code, tests and docs
>>> results in a vastly more useable distribution.
>>
>>
>> They are maintained at the same time. but since we chose to have
>> modperl-docs include modperl1, modperl2 and other general online docs,
>> I call the whole unrelated (since only a chunk of it relates to each
>> of the software projects).
>
>
> This is why I suggest that they not be called "docs", since they're not
> documentation distributed for each release. They're really docs for the
> mod_perl site. Perhaps site-docs? Then it makes much more sense to
> maintain them separately from mod_perl1.x or mod_perl2.x.
It doesn't make any difference to me how this module is called. I'm used
to 'docs', but any other name will do. The good thing about keeping 'docs'
is having it consistent with the mailing list name.
--
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http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas@stason.org http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
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Re: can someone explain the new modperl svn layout?
Posted by David Wheeler <da...@kineticode.com>.
On Nov 22, 2004, at 6:37 AM, Stas Bekman wrote:
>> Really? I for one believe that the docs would be of better overall
>> quality if they were maintained at the same time as the rest of the
>> tree. On smaller-scale CPAN modules, I've found that insisting that
>> contributors provide patches for all three of code, tests and docs
>> results in a vastly more useable distribution.
>
> They are maintained at the same time. but since we chose to have
> modperl-docs include modperl1, modperl2 and other general online docs,
> I call the whole unrelated (since only a chunk of it relates to each
> of the software projects).
This is why I suggest that they not be called "docs", since they're not
documentation distributed for each release. They're really docs for the
mod_perl site. Perhaps site-docs? Then it makes much more sense to
maintain them separately from mod_perl1.x or mod_perl2.x.
Cheers,
David
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Re: can someone explain the new modperl svn layout?
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Dominique Quatravaux wrote:
> Hello, just a grain of salt from an somewhat experienced mod_perl user
> who switched to Subversion some time ago...
>
> Stas Bekman wrote:
>
> >
> >> Second, docs/ was placed under modperl/ because like most other
> >> projects, the convention is to place the website/documentation
> >> beside trunk/ of the project it matches. It's just a convention.
> >
> >
> > what's the logic behind that convention?
>
> Well, I guess people expect the documentation to vary with the
> software (e.g. if you want to branch MP2 to provide, say, better
> support for interpreter multiplicity, you will want to update the docs
> too because of e.g. new httpd.conf directives).
And there is no problem with that, no matter where you put those.
> >> Third, modperl-2.0 was made into modperl/trunk because it was the
> >> main development branch. Same reason httpd-2.1 was made into
> >> httpd/trunk
> >
> >
> > well, 2.0, 2.1 and 2.2 are closely related. mp1 and mp2 have next
> > to zero relation to each other. I can't see a good reason why the
> > two should be branches of the same tree.
>
> My opinion is that the "trunk" convention in Subversion is a CVS mimic
> that only fits a small number of projects with only one main line of
> development, which obviously mod_perl isn't. But this is the topic of
> another thread.
Right.
> > modperl-docs, modperl-2.0 and modperl-1.0 are 3 unrelated projects
>
> Really? I for one believe that the docs would be of better overall
> quality if they were maintained at the same time as the rest of the
> tree. On smaller-scale CPAN modules, I've found that insisting that
> contributors provide patches for all three of code, tests and docs
> results in a vastly more useable distribution.
They are maintained at the same time. but since we chose to have
modperl-docs include modperl1, modperl2 and other general online docs, I
call the whole unrelated (since only a chunk of it relates to each of the
software projects). In fact modperl-2.0/docs is a checkout of
modperl-docs/src/docs/2.0
Thanks for the comments, Dominique
--
__________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas@stason.org http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com
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Re: can someone explain the new modperl svn layout?
Posted by Dominique Quatravaux <do...@kilimandjaro.dyndns.org>.
Hello, just a grain of salt from an somewhat experienced mod_perl user
who switched to Subversion some time ago...
Stas Bekman wrote:
>
>> Second, docs/ was placed under modperl/ because like most other
>> projects, the convention is to place the website/documentation
>> beside trunk/ of the project it matches. It's just a convention.
>
>
> what's the logic behind that convention?
Well, I guess people expect the documentation to vary with the
software (e.g. if you want to branch MP2 to provide, say, better
support for interpreter multiplicity, you will want to update the docs
too because of e.g. new httpd.conf directives).
>
>> Third, modperl-2.0 was made into modperl/trunk because it was the
>> main development branch. Same reason httpd-2.1 was made into
>> httpd/trunk
>
>
> well, 2.0, 2.1 and 2.2 are closely related. mp1 and mp2 have next
> to zero relation to each other. I can't see a good reason why the
> two should be branches of the same tree.
My opinion is that the "trunk" convention in Subversion is a CVS mimic
that only fits a small number of projects with only one main line of
development, which obviously mod_perl isn't. But this is the topic of
another thread.
> modperl-docs, modperl-2.0 and modperl-1.0 are 3 unrelated projects
Really? I for one believe that the docs would be of better overall
quality if they were maintained at the same time as the rest of the
tree. On smaller-scale CPAN modules, I've found that insisting that
contributors provide patches for all three of code, tests and docs
results in a vastly more useable distribution.
--
<< Tout n'y est pas parfait, mais on y honore certainement les
jardiniers >>
Dominique Quatravaux <do...@kilimandjaro.dyndns.org>
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Re: can someone explain the new modperl svn layout?
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Philippe M. Chiasson wrote:
> Stas Bekman wrote:
>
>> I'm totally confused. Can someone who was working with infrastructure
>> at apachecon explain the new layout of modperl projects under svn. I'm
>> viewing http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl and it doesn't make any
>> sense to me.
>
>
> Well, first of all, if you want to browse the repository, you are far
> better of with regular http thru http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/perl/
> with a good old web browser.
I prefer viewcvs.cgi since it gives you a chance to see diffs and better
annotated.
>> All I can see is:
>>
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/docs/
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/
>>
>> which doesn't seem to be right at all, why modperl and not
>> modperl-2.0? the two generations are totally unrelated, so there is no
>> point making those 2 different branches. Why the docs are nested
>> inside modperl?
>
>
> Well, that structure was more or less the result of a conversation with
> the folks in infractruture as they were moving a bunch of
> projects under svn.
>
> First, keep in mind that [svn]/perl is under our control (the modperl
> developers), so we are now entirely free
> to make whatever changes we want and move things around, without the
> trouble it would have been with CVS.
>
> Second, docs/ was placed under modperl/ because like most other
> projects, the convention is to place the website/documentation
> beside trunk/ of the project it matches. It's just a convention.
what's the logic behind that convention?
> Third, modperl-2.0 was made into modperl/trunk because it was the main
> development branch. Same reason httpd-2.1 was made
> into httpd/trunk
well, 2.0, 2.1 and 2.2 are closely related. mp1 and mp2 have next to zero
relation to each other. I can't see a good reason why the two should be
branches of the same tree.
>> It should be something like (1):
>>
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl-docs
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl-2.0
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl-1.0
>
>
> This sure is one possible layout. It would be quite different from the
> layout all the other asf projects are under though, and I
> for one don't quite see how it improves things. It's different than what
> we have right now, but I fail to see how it's different
> as long as people are handed out SVN Urls to download things from.
It puts all things under one roof, rather then scattering them all over.
It's true that it can be all documented, but why making things
unintuitive? modperl-docs, modperl-2.0 and modperl-1.0 are 3 unrelated
projects and therefore IMHO it's logicall to keep those at the same level.
>> If we are planning to do a different nesting to accomodate other
>> projects it could be (2):
>>
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/docs
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/2.0
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/1.0
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/embperl/1.0
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/embperl/2.0
>> ...
>
>
> Or:
>
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/perl/modperl/trunk/
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/perl/modperl/docs/
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/perl/modperl/branches/1.x/
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/perl/embperl/trunk
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/perl/embperl/branches/1.x/
>
> And IMO, this is an approach that remains closer than the way other
> project are structured too, like httpd for instance.
>
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/httpd/httpd/trunk
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/httpd/httpd/tags
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/httpd/httpd/branches
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/httpd/httpd/branches/1.3.x
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/httpd/httpd/branches/2.0.x
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/httpd/site
If someone can explain to me the reasoning for this layout I will be able
to make a better judging. At the moment I find this layout quite unituitive.
>> In the future for this kind of grand changes please post a plan of
>> things you are going to do *before* doing them.
>
>
> I absolutely agree on this one, and this is a good example of making a
> somewhat significant infrastructural change without
> enough planning. This has been decided kinda on the spur of the moment
> at ApacheCon, and I am sure many other projects
> are going thru a similarly annoying changing process.
:)
>> This is a huge change and it already wastes a huge amount of our time
>> :( sorry if it feels like I'm screaming, but I feel very blind at the
>> moment, because I have no idea what's going on.
>
>
> But, at this point, I think moving forward with subversion is a good
> idea ;-)
I didn't say I was suggesting to revert back to cvs. It's just that
instead finishing off the 2.0 release, which is a way delayed we now have
to waste time on this new infrastracture. I've spent hours yesterday
trying to get svn and svk compiled correctly, since the binary builds were
segfaulting all over. I haven't even had a chance to start learning svn
because of that. I'd rather be finishing off mp2 at this moment.
Unfortunately due to Apache-Test we were forced into this unplanned
conversion.
> We have complete control of the content of [svn]/perl/* and can
> very easily "svn move" anything to wherever we want. Subversion is
> different to CVS in many places, and certain paradigms did change, but I
> think that the important thing at this point, and moving forward, is to
> discuss the remaining annoyances
> left and tackle them on a one to one basis and I am sure we can get back
> to a nice, stable and comfortable development environment
> in no time.
+1
> So, in a new thread, I'll start first a conversation on what svn repos
> structure we want to adopt.
OK
--
__________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas@stason.org http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com
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Re: can someone explain the new modperl svn layout?
Posted by "Philippe M. Chiasson" <go...@ectoplasm.org>.
Stas Bekman wrote:
> I'm totally confused. Can someone who was working with infrastructure
> at apachecon explain the new layout of modperl projects under svn. I'm
> viewing http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl and it doesn't make any
> sense to me.
Well, first of all, if you want to browse the repository, you are far
better of with regular http thru http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/perl/
with a good old web browser.
> All I can see is:
>
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/docs/
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/
>
> which doesn't seem to be right at all, why modperl and not
> modperl-2.0? the two generations are totally unrelated, so there is no
> point making those 2 different branches. Why the docs are nested
> inside modperl?
Well, that structure was more or less the result of a conversation with
the folks in infractruture as they were moving a bunch of
projects under svn.
First, keep in mind that [svn]/perl is under our control (the modperl
developers), so we are now entirely free
to make whatever changes we want and move things around, without the
trouble it would have been with CVS.
Second, docs/ was placed under modperl/ because like most other
projects, the convention is to place the website/documentation
beside trunk/ of the project it matches. It's just a convention.
Third, modperl-2.0 was made into modperl/trunk because it was the main
development branch. Same reason httpd-2.1 was made
into httpd/trunk
> It should be something like (1):
>
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl-docs
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl-2.0
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl-1.0
This sure is one possible layout. It would be quite different from the
layout all the other asf projects are under though, and I
for one don't quite see how it improves things. It's different than what
we have right now, but I fail to see how it's different
as long as people are handed out SVN Urls to download things from.
> If we are planning to do a different nesting to accomodate other
> projects it could be (2):
>
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/docs
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/2.0
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/1.0
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/embperl/1.0
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/embperl/2.0
> ...
Or:
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/perl/modperl/trunk/
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/perl/modperl/docs/
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/perl/modperl/branches/1.x/
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/perl/embperl/trunk
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/perl/embperl/branches/1.x/
And IMO, this is an approach that remains closer than the way other
project are structured too, like httpd for instance.
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/httpd/httpd/trunk
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/httpd/httpd/tags
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/httpd/httpd/branches
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/httpd/httpd/branches/1.3.x
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/httpd/httpd/branches/2.0.x
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/httpd/site
> In the future for this kind of grand changes please post a plan of
> things you are going to do *before* doing them.
I absolutely agree on this one, and this is a good example of making a
somewhat significant infrastructural change without
enough planning. This has been decided kinda on the spur of the moment
at ApacheCon, and I am sure many other projects
are going thru a similarly annoying changing process.
> This is a huge change and it already wastes a huge amount of our time
> :( sorry if it feels like I'm screaming, but I feel very blind at the
> moment, because I have no idea what's going on.
But, at this point, I think moving forward with subversion is a good
idea ;-) We have complete control of the content of [svn]/perl/* and can
very easily "svn move" anything to wherever we want. Subversion is
different to CVS in many places, and certain paradigms did change, but I
think that the important thing at this point, and moving forward, is to
discuss the remaining annoyances
left and tackle them on a one to one basis and I am sure we can get back
to a nice, stable and comfortable development environment
in no time.
So, in a new thread, I'll start first a conversation on what svn repos
structure we want to adopt.
Gozer out.
Re: can someone explain the new modperl svn layout?
Posted by David Wheeler <da...@kineticode.com>.
On Nov 21, 2004, at 11:16 AM, Stas Bekman wrote:
> yes, this is the case, I'm just vieving it via viewcvs.cgi, which as I
> understand omits the /trunk/ part.
Actually, it doesn't. But looking at one of the links you sent in your
last post, those directories were created for each project. So we have:
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/docs/branches
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/docs/tags
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/docs/trunk
But I agree that docs should not be under modperl. But that's easily
rectified:
svn mv http://svn.apache.org/perl/modperl/docs \
http://svn.apache.org/perl/modperl-docs
svn mv http://svn.apache.org/perl/modperl \
http://svn.apache.org/perl/modperl2
But note that this will make doing `svn diff` trickier for a while...
Regards,
David
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Re: can someone explain the new modperl svn layout?
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
David Wheeler wrote:
> On Nov 21, 2004, at 9:09 AM, Stas Bekman wrote:
>
>> It should be something like (1):
>>
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl-docs
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl-2.0
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl-1.0
>>
>> If we are planning to do a different nesting to accomodate other
>> projects it could be (2):
>>
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/docs
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/2.0
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/1.0
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/embperl/1.0
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/embperl/2.0
>
>
> I agree that these would be a lot more clear and meaningful, although
> you *should* have a "trunk" directory in there somewhere. I like these:
>
> https://svn.apache.org/trunk/perl/modperl/docs
> https://svn.apache.org/trunk/perl/modperl/2.x
> https://svn.apache.org/trunk/perl/modperl/1.x
> https://svn.apache.org/trunk/perl/embperl/1.x
> https://svn.apache.org/trunk/perl/embperl/2.x
yes, this is the case, I'm just vieving it via viewcvs.cgi, which as I
understand omits the /trunk/ part.
--
__________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas@stason.org http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
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Re: can someone explain the new modperl svn layout?
Posted by David Wheeler <da...@kineticode.com>.
On Nov 21, 2004, at 9:09 AM, Stas Bekman wrote:
> It should be something like (1):
>
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl-docs
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl-2.0
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl-1.0
>
> If we are planning to do a different nesting to accomodate other
> projects it could be (2):
>
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/docs
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/2.0
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/modperl/1.0
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/embperl/1.0
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/perl/embperl/2.0
I agree that these would be a lot more clear and meaningful, although
you *should* have a "trunk" directory in there somewhere. I like these:
https://svn.apache.org/trunk/perl/modperl/docs
https://svn.apache.org/trunk/perl/modperl/2.x
https://svn.apache.org/trunk/perl/modperl/1.x
https://svn.apache.org/trunk/perl/embperl/1.x
https://svn.apache.org/trunk/perl/embperl/2.x
But this is also okay:
https://svn.apache.org/perl/modperl/docs/trunk
https://svn.apache.org/perl/modperl/2.x/trunk
https://svn.apache.org/perl/modperl/1.x/trunk
https://svn.apache.org/perl/embperl/1.x/trunk
https://svn.apache.org/perl/embperl/2.x/trunk
Of course, whenever you crete a branch, it would have to look something
like this:
https://svn.apache.org/perl/modperl/2.x/branches/branch_name
Likewise for tags, it would have to be:
https://svn.apache.org/perl/modperl/2.x/tags/tag_name
For the first example they would have to be like this:
https://svn.apache.org/branches/branch_name/perl/modperl/2.x
https://svn.apache.org/tags/tags_name/perl/modperl/2.x
Which I have to say, given the multiproject nature of the Apache svn
installation, probably makes less sense.
More on repository layout and the ideas behind it is documented here:
http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.1/ch04s07.html#svn-ch-4-sect-7.1
Regards,
David
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