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Posted to dev@velocity.apache.org by Peter Romianowski <me...@gmx.de> on 2002/12/09 04:15:47 UTC
The most friendly PITA (long)
Another week is gone and I start to feel like the PITA of
some of the readers. :|
I also start to consider the possibility of "fork your own
codebase and shut up" (as basicly provided to me on the list
some time ago) as a bad but maybe the only choice left :(. I
would still like to work on velocity (improving the number
support (has anybody tested it already?) or propose a #filter
meachanism or help coordinating thins - see later) but I do not
see any sence in doing so!
I could live with a paradigm that says: "Well, please
propose your patch 3 times - we're too busy" as it is on tomcat-dev
for instance. But *there's* a living discussion and development
going on! And that is *totally* missing here for way too long
now! From time to time there are people discussing things -
most times without any result. Why isn't there anything like
"Vote for #local" or "Vote for number support proposal"? With
rules like "X +1 means - go for it" and "any -1 from the core
team means: no go - more discussion needed" (As I think that
was the main reason Geir dislikes votes). That way we (you)
could step out of this "we're talking about things for a while
but if the thread's over..."-thing. This list is starting to
become some kind of "academical discussion list" (more details
later on).
A proposal for further development
----------------------------------
So maybe someone could work out something like a "Road Map"
with things like:
1. What to do with 1.3.1?
2. What to implement for 1.4?
3. What would come in 2.0?
I mean: It's enough there! 1. and 2. can be nearly extracted
from the list archives as there were so many discussions and
even proposals (Map-Support, Number-Support, #local, Whitespace-
stuff (#filter)...) And enough people seem to be interrested
and come up with good ideas and even proposals / patches!
That could be discussed (every piece of it separately, since
the first two things are really "only" feature lists, whereas the
third thing could contain something like "rewrite this or that" or
"add a total backwards compatibility killer"). The best thing would
be to assign a single person to the task of updating the document
and bringing it to the discussion again and again until it's time
to vote on something. And then we could go into details for every
point on each list and discuss implementation details. I would
really like to see more "solution driven development" instead of
"philisophical discussions". Some things do not need that much
discussion (like a #local directive or improving the #macro
capabilities (using macros from #parsed files)) IMHO. Or the
discussion is over and now it's time for actually doing it (number
support?) Don't get me wrong: Discussion is good! But it could be a
bit more pragmatical (since Velocity is still a *tool* and not a
whole new technology or science - IMO :). Don't get me wrong
again: I don't want to leave the "Simplicity-Paradigm" and implement
every "please come into my mind"-feature in the core!
The above proposal of working on a "Road Map" (really not the
right word - found no other) is basicly a thing I wanted to throw
in for a long period of time since I think it is really time to
move things forward (and thus not only maintaining what's there).
Note to JR (who's still reading the list I guess): I *know*
what you're thinking! :)
And as always: No personal assult.
Peter
[One sentence: I like Velocity and I *really* want to help to improve
it further, but I will *leave* disappointed if we cannot manage to
bring back life to it.]
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Re: The most friendly PITA (long)
Posted by James Taylor <ja...@jamestaylor.org>.
> LOL
>
> No, my thought was to do the 1.4-rc1 at the same time as 1.3, and move
> HEAD to 1.5-dev.
>
> Would that work?
Sounds good =]
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Re: The most friendly PITA (long)
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 08:17 AM, James Taylor wrote:
> On Mon, 2002-12-09 at 08:16, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>> On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 08:09 AM, James Taylor wrote:
>>
>>>> I think we have some nice things in 1.4 already, and I thought that
>>>> once 1.3 out, then 1.4 goes into rc and just move it.
>>>>
>>>> Then we start on 1.5 with the experiment with the map and floating
>>>> point stuff we've been talking about.
>>>
>>> Any reason not to toss maps in 1.4? It should be completely
>>> compatible
>>> with existing templates and not change any behavior (only add).
>>>
>>
>> Because it's new - we don't want to release a new feature before we
>> beat on it for a while and get some feedback how people use it
>> (including improvements to syntax.)
>
> I suppose it depends on how soon you want to see 1.4 released -- if it
> is going to be another year long RC cycle (which is fine!) it might be
> better to put it in. If you want to see it beat on and tested, I expect
> that will only happen for an RC (nobody uses betas =).
LOL
No, my thought was to do the 1.4-rc1 at the same time as 1.3, and move
HEAD to 1.5-dev.
Would that work?
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-355-2219(w)
Adeptra, Inc. 203-247-1713(m)
geirm@adeptra.com
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Re: The most friendly PITA (long)
Posted by James Taylor <ja...@jamestaylor.org>.
On Mon, 2002-12-09 at 08:16, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 08:09 AM, James Taylor wrote:
>
> >> I think we have some nice things in 1.4 already, and I thought that
> >> once 1.3 out, then 1.4 goes into rc and just move it.
> >>
> >> Then we start on 1.5 with the experiment with the map and floating
> >> point stuff we've been talking about.
> >
> > Any reason not to toss maps in 1.4? It should be completely compatible
> > with existing templates and not change any behavior (only add).
> >
>
> Because it's new - we don't want to release a new feature before we
> beat on it for a while and get some feedback how people use it
> (including improvements to syntax.)
I suppose it depends on how soon you want to see 1.4 released -- if it
is going to be another year long RC cycle (which is fine!) it might be
better to put it in. If you want to see it beat on and tested, I expect
that will only happen for an RC (nobody uses betas =).
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Re: The most friendly PITA (long)
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 08:09 AM, James Taylor wrote:
>> I think we have some nice things in 1.4 already, and I thought that
>> once 1.3 out, then 1.4 goes into rc and just move it.
>>
>> Then we start on 1.5 with the experiment with the map and floating
>> point stuff we've been talking about.
>
> Any reason not to toss maps in 1.4? It should be completely compatible
> with existing templates and not change any behavior (only add).
>
Because it's new - we don't want to release a new feature before we
beat on it for a while and get some feedback how people use it
(including improvements to syntax.)
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-355-2219(w)
Adeptra, Inc. 203-247-1713(m)
geirm@adeptra.com
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Re: The most friendly PITA (long)
Posted by James Taylor <ja...@jamestaylor.org>.
> I think we have some nice things in 1.4 already, and I thought that
> once 1.3 out, then 1.4 goes into rc and just move it.
>
> Then we start on 1.5 with the experiment with the map and floating
> point stuff we've been talking about.
Any reason not to toss maps in 1.4? It should be completely compatible
with existing templates and not change any behavior (only add).
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RE: The most friendly PITA (long)
Posted by Peter Romianowski <me...@gmx.de>.
> > is *totally* missing here for way too long now! From time to time
> > there are people discussing things - most times without any result.
> > Why isn't there anything like "Vote for #local" or "Vote for number
> > support proposal"? With rules like "X +1 means - go for it"
> and "any
> > -1 from the core team means: no go - more discussion needed" (As I
> > think that was the main reason Geir dislikes votes).
>
> I don't understand that.
This was my interpretation of your reaction when I asked for voting
for the first time. I just wanted to point out the power of votes.
> > 1. What to do with 1.3.1?
>
> Get it out there. This is my failing and I will get it done
> this week.
> I was going to do yesterday, but just fell asleep and ignored the
> world for a day.
Please don't take it all on yourself!
> > 2. What to implement for 1.4?
>
> I think we have some nice things in 1.4 already, and I thought that
> once 1.3 out, then 1.4 goes into rc and just move it.
>
> Then we start on 1.5 with the experiment with the map and floating
> point stuff we've been talking about.
That sounds so straightforward and clear - but (and that's the reason
why I started all this) - I did not see anything that would have gave
me the impression on things moving forward. I just see dying discussions,
release candidates, no commits, proposals / patches with no further action
and a single person (you) who feels responsable (good!) but insists that
the weight of the world lasts on his shoulders (bad).
So, Geir, are you actually denying any conflicts / lack of commiters
/ lack of development? Again, I really think that a project like
velocity cannot rely on a single person. And so I feel sorry for all
the trouble you have, but I think there should be others (reactivated?).
And again, for sure: I am *NOT* trying to push myself into the role of
being one of them!
But perhaps I totally misunderstand my role here. As I don't want
to push someone somewhere and don't want to raise PITAs I think the
correct role might be: wait, contribute, see, wait, contribute ...
Sorry if this sounds a bit p***ed off. That is actually *not* the
way I feel - I am so confused and a bit - ehm - disappointed of how
things turn out. :(
So then I'll think I can go asleep until 1.4 is final and then I
might dare to say / contribute something again?
Peter
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Re: The most friendly PITA (long)
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 10:15 PM, Peter Romianowski wrote:
>
> I could live with a paradigm that says: "Well, please
> propose your patch 3 times - we're too busy" as it is on tomcat-dev
> for instance. But *there's* a living discussion and development
> going on! And that is *totally* missing here for way too long
> now! From time to time there are people discussing things -
> most times without any result. Why isn't there anything like
> "Vote for #local" or "Vote for number support proposal"? With
> rules like "X +1 means - go for it" and "any -1 from the core
> team means: no go - more discussion needed" (As I think that
> was the main reason Geir dislikes votes).
I don't understand that.
> That way we (you)
> could step out of this "we're talking about things for a while
> but if the thread's over..."-thing. This list is starting to
> become some kind of "academical discussion list" (more details
> later on).
>
> A proposal for further development
> ----------------------------------
>
> So maybe someone could work out something like a "Road Map"
> with things like:
>
> 1. What to do with 1.3.1?
Get it out there. This is my failing and I will get it done this week.
I was going to do yesterday, but just fell asleep and ignored the
world for a day.
> 2. What to implement for 1.4?
I think we have some nice things in 1.4 already, and I thought that
once 1.3 out, then 1.4 goes into rc and just move it.
Then we start on 1.5 with the experiment with the map and floating
point stuff we've been talking about.
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-355-2219(w)
Adeptra, Inc. 203-247-1713(m)
geirm@adeptra.com
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