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Posted to dev@commons.apache.org by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> on 2006/03/07 18:38:13 UTC
Commons Metadata?
I believe I brought this up before, but I really think there's a need for
this. We need a metadata framework which abstracts away the details of
exactly how the metadata is found/provided. For example, some applications
use only JDK5 annotations to add metadata to their classes. Others might
use Jakarta Commons Attributes. Others might want to use XML files (if they
don't want to have to touch the source). So, what we could provide is a
MetadataFactory (or whatever you want to call it) which can have "metadata
decorators" added to it. The decorators are added to a pipeline and are
given a chance to append metadata information to the metadata object. We
created something like this for the Trails (www.trailsframework.org) project
so that we could use "off-the-shelf" domain models (how many times have you
seen those at Best Buy?) within the framework by providing metadata via XML
files as opposed to using JDK5 annotations. We could start this off in the
sandbox, of course. Anyone interested in helping out? I could start off
developing the core classes (the metatdata "holder" classes).
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Re: Commons Metadata?
Posted by Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com>.
On 3/8/06, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> Ba
?
cheers,
Tom
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RE: Commons Metadata?
Posted by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>.
Sorry, don't know what happened there. When I typed "Ba", Outlook just sent
my email! I'll bet that doesn't happen in Thunderbird! Anyway, what I was
trying to type was:
Basically, it'd be an abstraction of the JDK5 annotations API. So, if
you're not using JDK5 or you don't want to have to modify the source code,
you could still provide metadata information for your classes. I can
imagine having "providers" for JDK5 annotations, Jakarta Commons Attributes,
some XML file format, maybe Groovy, etc. I don't know about using it like
XDoclet, but you'd be able to use it the same way you would JDK5
annotations.
-----Original Message-----
From: James Carman [mailto:james@carmanconsulting.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 1:07 PM
To: 'Jakarta Commons Developers List'
Subject: RE: Commons Metadata?
Ba
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Dudziak [mailto:tomdzk@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 1:05 PM
To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
Subject: Re: Commons Metadata?
On 3/8/06, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> If I write it, I can have the Trails project use it probably (I'm a
> committer). Do we just have to have clients who are interested in the
> project or do we also need more than one developer to work on it?
If it can be used like XDoclet, and also at runtime, then I would
guess that there are potentially a lot of users. And if you need
developers, I could help.
Tom
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RE: Commons Metadata?
Posted by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>.
Ba
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Dudziak [mailto:tomdzk@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 1:05 PM
To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
Subject: Re: Commons Metadata?
On 3/8/06, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> If I write it, I can have the Trails project use it probably (I'm a
> committer). Do we just have to have clients who are interested in the
> project or do we also need more than one developer to work on it?
If it can be used like XDoclet, and also at runtime, then I would
guess that there are potentially a lot of users. And if you need
developers, I could help.
Tom
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RE: Commons Metadata?
Posted by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>.
Ba
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Dudziak [mailto:tomdzk@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 1:05 PM
To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
Subject: Re: Commons Metadata?
On 3/8/06, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> If I write it, I can have the Trails project use it probably (I'm a
> committer). Do we just have to have clients who are interested in the
> project or do we also need more than one developer to work on it?
If it can be used like XDoclet, and also at runtime, then I would
guess that there are potentially a lot of users. And if you need
developers, I could help.
Tom
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Re: Commons Metadata?
Posted by Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com>.
On 3/8/06, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> If I write it, I can have the Trails project use it probably (I'm a
> committer). Do we just have to have clients who are interested in the
> project or do we also need more than one developer to work on it?
If it can be used like XDoclet, and also at runtime, then I would
guess that there are potentially a lot of users. And if you need
developers, I could help.
Tom
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Re: Commons Metadata?
Posted by Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com>.
On 3/8/06, Sandy McArthur <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't see such a library being useful except to a very small audience.
Wouldn't every project that wants to use both annotations for Java 5
and XML for older Java be a potential user ? E.g. consider Geronimo
with EJB 3 defining both annotations and a XML schema.
Tom
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Re: Commons Metadata?
Posted by Sandy McArthur <sa...@gmail.com>.
I don't see such a library being useful except to a very small audience.
I'd say keep the code with the project that is using it, solicit other
similar frameworks and see if they'd want to use the same code and
then once you've got a group of customers for the lib find a neutral
place to host it. Jakarata already has more code than people to
maintain that code and realistically it may not make sense for it to
live here.
On 3/8/06, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> If I write it, I can have the Trails project use it probably (I'm a
> committer). Do we just have to have clients who are interested in the
> project or do we also need more than one developer to work on it?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mfncooper@gmail.com [mailto:mfncooper@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Martin
> Cooper
> Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 12:42 PM
> To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
> Subject: Re: Commons Metadata?
>
> On 3/8/06, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> >
> > So, what's the next step here? Do I need more votes? Do I need to have a
> > formal [PROPOSAL] prior to adding the starting the project in the sandbox?
>
>
> Technically, you don't need any votes. What you do need to consider, though,
> is whether or not there is, or will be, enough interest that you'll be able
> to form a community around the code. If that doesn't happen, then the
> component won't get out of the sandbox, and therefore won't be able to
> release.
>
> So far, I see only one person expressing interest. If it were me, I don't
> think I'd proceed with code at this point. But then it's not me, it's you,
> so it's really your call. ;-)
>
> --
> Martin Cooper
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> > From: James Carman [mailto:james@carmanconsulting.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 1:02 PM
> > To: 'Jakarta Commons Developers List'
> > Subject: RE: Commons Metadata?
> >
> > Well, that's the thing. That's up to the "decorator" to decide how it
> > gets
> > the metadata information. Jakarta Commons Attributes does a
> > pre-compilation
> > step to set up the .class files so that their attributes can be read from
> > them (from what I can glean from the docs).
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Thomas Dudziak [mailto:tomdzk@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 12:57 PM
> > To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
> > Subject: Re: Commons Metadata?
> >
> > On 3/7/06, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I believe I brought this up before, but I really think there's a need
> > for
> > > this. We need a metadata framework which abstracts away the details of
> > > exactly how the metadata is found/provided. For example, some
> > applications
> > > use only JDK5 annotations to add metadata to their classes. Others
> > might
> > > use Jakarta Commons Attributes. Others might want to use XML files (if
> > they
> > > don't want to have to touch the source). So, what we could provide is a
> > > MetadataFactory (or whatever you want to call it) which can have
> > "metadata
> > > decorators" added to it. The decorators are added to a pipeline and are
> > > given a chance to append metadata information to the metadata
> > object. We
> > > created something like this for the Trails (www.trailsframework.org)
> > project
> > > so that we could use "off-the-shelf" domain models (how many times have
> > you
> > > seen those at Best Buy?) within the framework by providing metadata via
> > XML
> > > files as opposed to using JDK5 annotations. We could start this off in
> > the
> > > sandbox, of course. Anyone interested in helping out? I could start
> > off
> > > developing the core classes (the metatdata "holder" classes).
> >
> > +1
> >
> > That sounds useful, especially if it also can be used at compile time,
> > and if it can work with XDoclet-style Javadoc tags (e.g. using qdox or
> > similar).
> >
> > cheers,
> > Tom
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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> >
> >
>
>
>
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>
>
--
Sandy McArthur
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest."
- Thomas Paine
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RE: Commons Metadata?
Posted by Simon Kitching <sk...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 2006-03-08 at 12:46 -0500, James Carman wrote:
> If I write it, I can have the Trails project use it probably (I'm a
> committer). Do we just have to have clients who are interested in the
> project or do we also need more than one developer to work on it?
The sandbox is open to anyone; you can just get stuck in. However you
have to consider whether it is more *productive* to host your project
elsewhere (eg sourceforge).
Benefits of sandbox:
* Existing commons developers are watching.
If you think this project would be of interest to a number of existing
commons developers then it's beneficial to use sandbox as it will make
them aware of the project
* Easy for other apache projects to depend on it.
Apache projects are generally happier depending on apache-hosted
projects than external projects (though that's not an absolute rule).
In particular, for code factored out of an existing apache project
it makes sense to use sandbox.
* Easy promotion to proper
When the project has been developed in the sandbox, it's simply a vote
to move it to proper. When developed externally, contributor agreements
etc are probably needed before moving the project *to* apache.
Disadvantages of sandbox:
* It's very difficult getting non-apache developers committership.
If Sue Smith notices the project and wants to get involved she basically
can't. Only apache committers can have sandbox access, and apache
committership is not something granted lightly. In sourceforge, of
course, the project administrator just adds any user they want.
* Very low visibility
People can find sourceforge projects much easier than they can find
sandbox projects.
* Releases
You can't make official releases of a sandbox project before it's
promoted to proper. And it cannot be promoted to proper unless you can
attract at least a couple of other commons committers to work on the
project. This needs very serious thought; if you're not going to get
that support in commons then sandbox is a permanent dead end.
Cheers,
Simon
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RE: Commons Metadata?
Posted by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>.
If I write it, I can have the Trails project use it probably (I'm a
committer). Do we just have to have clients who are interested in the
project or do we also need more than one developer to work on it?
-----Original Message-----
From: mfncooper@gmail.com [mailto:mfncooper@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Martin
Cooper
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 12:42 PM
To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
Subject: Re: Commons Metadata?
On 3/8/06, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
>
> So, what's the next step here? Do I need more votes? Do I need to have a
> formal [PROPOSAL] prior to adding the starting the project in the sandbox?
Technically, you don't need any votes. What you do need to consider, though,
is whether or not there is, or will be, enough interest that you'll be able
to form a community around the code. If that doesn't happen, then the
component won't get out of the sandbox, and therefore won't be able to
release.
So far, I see only one person expressing interest. If it were me, I don't
think I'd proceed with code at this point. But then it's not me, it's you,
so it's really your call. ;-)
--
Martin Cooper
-----Original Message-----
> From: James Carman [mailto:james@carmanconsulting.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 1:02 PM
> To: 'Jakarta Commons Developers List'
> Subject: RE: Commons Metadata?
>
> Well, that's the thing. That's up to the "decorator" to decide how it
> gets
> the metadata information. Jakarta Commons Attributes does a
> pre-compilation
> step to set up the .class files so that their attributes can be read from
> them (from what I can glean from the docs).
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Dudziak [mailto:tomdzk@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 12:57 PM
> To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
> Subject: Re: Commons Metadata?
>
> On 3/7/06, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
>
> > I believe I brought this up before, but I really think there's a need
> for
> > this. We need a metadata framework which abstracts away the details of
> > exactly how the metadata is found/provided. For example, some
> applications
> > use only JDK5 annotations to add metadata to their classes. Others
> might
> > use Jakarta Commons Attributes. Others might want to use XML files (if
> they
> > don't want to have to touch the source). So, what we could provide is a
> > MetadataFactory (or whatever you want to call it) which can have
> "metadata
> > decorators" added to it. The decorators are added to a pipeline and are
> > given a chance to append metadata information to the metadata
> object. We
> > created something like this for the Trails (www.trailsframework.org)
> project
> > so that we could use "off-the-shelf" domain models (how many times have
> you
> > seen those at Best Buy?) within the framework by providing metadata via
> XML
> > files as opposed to using JDK5 annotations. We could start this off in
> the
> > sandbox, of course. Anyone interested in helping out? I could start
> off
> > developing the core classes (the metatdata "holder" classes).
>
> +1
>
> That sounds useful, especially if it also can be used at compile time,
> and if it can work with XDoclet-style Javadoc tags (e.g. using qdox or
> similar).
>
> cheers,
> Tom
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
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>
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Re: Commons Metadata?
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 3/8/06, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
>
> So, what's the next step here? Do I need more votes? Do I need to have a
> formal [PROPOSAL] prior to adding the starting the project in the sandbox?
Technically, you don't need any votes. What you do need to consider, though,
is whether or not there is, or will be, enough interest that you'll be able
to form a community around the code. If that doesn't happen, then the
component won't get out of the sandbox, and therefore won't be able to
release.
So far, I see only one person expressing interest. If it were me, I don't
think I'd proceed with code at this point. But then it's not me, it's you,
so it's really your call. ;-)
--
Martin Cooper
-----Original Message-----
> From: James Carman [mailto:james@carmanconsulting.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 1:02 PM
> To: 'Jakarta Commons Developers List'
> Subject: RE: Commons Metadata?
>
> Well, that's the thing. That's up to the "decorator" to decide how it
> gets
> the metadata information. Jakarta Commons Attributes does a
> pre-compilation
> step to set up the .class files so that their attributes can be read from
> them (from what I can glean from the docs).
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Dudziak [mailto:tomdzk@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 12:57 PM
> To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
> Subject: Re: Commons Metadata?
>
> On 3/7/06, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
>
> > I believe I brought this up before, but I really think there's a need
> for
> > this. We need a metadata framework which abstracts away the details of
> > exactly how the metadata is found/provided. For example, some
> applications
> > use only JDK5 annotations to add metadata to their classes. Others
> might
> > use Jakarta Commons Attributes. Others might want to use XML files (if
> they
> > don't want to have to touch the source). So, what we could provide is a
> > MetadataFactory (or whatever you want to call it) which can have
> "metadata
> > decorators" added to it. The decorators are added to a pipeline and are
> > given a chance to append metadata information to the metadata
> object. We
> > created something like this for the Trails (www.trailsframework.org)
> project
> > so that we could use "off-the-shelf" domain models (how many times have
> you
> > seen those at Best Buy?) within the framework by providing metadata via
> XML
> > files as opposed to using JDK5 annotations. We could start this off in
> the
> > sandbox, of course. Anyone interested in helping out? I could start
> off
> > developing the core classes (the metatdata "holder" classes).
>
> +1
>
> That sounds useful, especially if it also can be used at compile time,
> and if it can work with XDoclet-style Javadoc tags (e.g. using qdox or
> similar).
>
> cheers,
> Tom
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
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>
>
RE: Commons Metadata?
Posted by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>.
So, what's the next step here? Do I need more votes? Do I need to have a
formal [PROPOSAL] prior to adding the starting the project in the sandbox?
-----Original Message-----
From: James Carman [mailto:james@carmanconsulting.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 1:02 PM
To: 'Jakarta Commons Developers List'
Subject: RE: Commons Metadata?
Well, that's the thing. That's up to the "decorator" to decide how it gets
the metadata information. Jakarta Commons Attributes does a pre-compilation
step to set up the .class files so that their attributes can be read from
them (from what I can glean from the docs).
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Dudziak [mailto:tomdzk@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 12:57 PM
To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
Subject: Re: Commons Metadata?
On 3/7/06, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> I believe I brought this up before, but I really think there's a need for
> this. We need a metadata framework which abstracts away the details of
> exactly how the metadata is found/provided. For example, some
applications
> use only JDK5 annotations to add metadata to their classes. Others might
> use Jakarta Commons Attributes. Others might want to use XML files (if
they
> don't want to have to touch the source). So, what we could provide is a
> MetadataFactory (or whatever you want to call it) which can have "metadata
> decorators" added to it. The decorators are added to a pipeline and are
> given a chance to append metadata information to the metadata object. We
> created something like this for the Trails (www.trailsframework.org)
project
> so that we could use "off-the-shelf" domain models (how many times have
you
> seen those at Best Buy?) within the framework by providing metadata via
XML
> files as opposed to using JDK5 annotations. We could start this off in
the
> sandbox, of course. Anyone interested in helping out? I could start off
> developing the core classes (the metatdata "holder" classes).
+1
That sounds useful, especially if it also can be used at compile time,
and if it can work with XDoclet-style Javadoc tags (e.g. using qdox or
similar).
cheers,
Tom
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RE: Commons Metadata?
Posted by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>.
Well, that's the thing. That's up to the "decorator" to decide how it gets
the metadata information. Jakarta Commons Attributes does a pre-compilation
step to set up the .class files so that their attributes can be read from
them (from what I can glean from the docs).
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Dudziak [mailto:tomdzk@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 12:57 PM
To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
Subject: Re: Commons Metadata?
On 3/7/06, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> I believe I brought this up before, but I really think there's a need for
> this. We need a metadata framework which abstracts away the details of
> exactly how the metadata is found/provided. For example, some
applications
> use only JDK5 annotations to add metadata to their classes. Others might
> use Jakarta Commons Attributes. Others might want to use XML files (if
they
> don't want to have to touch the source). So, what we could provide is a
> MetadataFactory (or whatever you want to call it) which can have "metadata
> decorators" added to it. The decorators are added to a pipeline and are
> given a chance to append metadata information to the metadata object. We
> created something like this for the Trails (www.trailsframework.org)
project
> so that we could use "off-the-shelf" domain models (how many times have
you
> seen those at Best Buy?) within the framework by providing metadata via
XML
> files as opposed to using JDK5 annotations. We could start this off in
the
> sandbox, of course. Anyone interested in helping out? I could start off
> developing the core classes (the metatdata "holder" classes).
+1
That sounds useful, especially if it also can be used at compile time,
and if it can work with XDoclet-style Javadoc tags (e.g. using qdox or
similar).
cheers,
Tom
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Re: Commons Metadata?
Posted by Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com>.
On 3/7/06, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> I believe I brought this up before, but I really think there's a need for
> this. We need a metadata framework which abstracts away the details of
> exactly how the metadata is found/provided. For example, some applications
> use only JDK5 annotations to add metadata to their classes. Others might
> use Jakarta Commons Attributes. Others might want to use XML files (if they
> don't want to have to touch the source). So, what we could provide is a
> MetadataFactory (or whatever you want to call it) which can have "metadata
> decorators" added to it. The decorators are added to a pipeline and are
> given a chance to append metadata information to the metadata object. We
> created something like this for the Trails (www.trailsframework.org) project
> so that we could use "off-the-shelf" domain models (how many times have you
> seen those at Best Buy?) within the framework by providing metadata via XML
> files as opposed to using JDK5 annotations. We could start this off in the
> sandbox, of course. Anyone interested in helping out? I could start off
> developing the core classes (the metatdata "holder" classes).
+1
That sounds useful, especially if it also can be used at compile time,
and if it can work with XDoclet-style Javadoc tags (e.g. using qdox or
similar).
cheers,
Tom
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