You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Jules Gosnell <ju...@mortbay.com> on 2006/01/03 15:40:00 UTC
Re: [policy] bring in full code history on incubated project?
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> Sorry to change the subject...
>
> Can someone make a definitive statement on whether or not code history
> is brought into our repo from elsewhere when a podling brings code over?
>
>
I don't see how the incubator can hold a single position on this one.
There are good reasons both for and against, depending on your project.
Rather than making a decision which is bound to fly in the face of some
potential incubatees, why can it not simply be left to individual
projects to decide for themselves?
My understanding of the incubator's role, was that issues like this did
not have to be resolved until a project sought promotion up out of the
incubator.
At this point, I might reasonably expect to have to shed a project
history - if its acceptance into a first-level ASF repo caused problems
- and live with a history divided between two repos.
Why, though, a passage to this point, via the incubator, should further
fragment a project, and leave me with my history in three places, I do
not understand.
Isn't the incubator meant to lower the bar for projects wishing to
migrate into ASF ?
Jules (WADI)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [policy] bring in full code history on incubated project?
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 03 January 2006 22:40, Jules Gosnell wrote:
> Isn't the incubator meant to lower the bar for projects wishing to
> migrate into ASF ?
Not directly. Incubator is the buffer that is here to ensure that the ASF, its
members and to some degree its committers are given a low legal risk. That
means that the Incubator's primary job is to make sure that we expose
ourselves to possible legal attack, or for that matter, ignorance resulting
in troublesome conversions later, for instance a project named by a trademark
which we later have to change, which causes both confusion for users and
additional workload for the project.
The second main objective of the Incubator is to "educate" incubatees in "The
Apache Way" and bring the project community up to par with the other
projects. The "daily job" for that falls upon the mentor, but the Incubator
PMC has an oversight duty, and should not graduate projects that doesn't show
that they operate according to the general practice of the foundation.
_I_ have not seen any specific directives from the Board that the Incubator
should "lower the bar". In a way the Incubator is lowering the bar, by the
fact that it exist, and one didn't need to go through the Board to create new
projects or import external ones, but that is more a "work load issue" than
anything to do with requirements for becoming an Apache project.
"Making it easier" in terms of providing better tools, support, infrastructure
to achieve the objectives mentioned above are on the Incubators "work list"
on a continuous basis. Perhaps that is what you meant.
Cheers
Niclas
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [policy] bring in full code history on incubated project?
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk>.
Jules Gosnell wrote:
> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Jules Gosnell wrote:
>>
>>> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sorry to change the subject...
>>>>
>>>> Can someone make a definitive statement on whether or not code
>>>> history is brought into our repo from elsewhere when a podling
>>>> brings code over?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't see how the incubator can hold a single position on this one.
>>>
>>> There are good reasons both for and against, depending on your project.
>>>
>>
>> We certainly can have a position, and then deal with exceptions.
>>
>>
>>> Rather than making a decision which is bound to fly in the face of
>>> some potential incubatees, why can it not simply be left to
>>> individual projects to decide for themselves?
>>
>>
>>
>> Because IMO the primary purpose of the incubator is to protect and
>> promote the ASFs interests, not of the candidate individual projects.
>> That's SourceForge.
>>
>>>
>>> My understanding of the incubator's role, was that issues like this
>>> did not have to be resolved until a project sought promotion up out
>>> of the incubator.
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, things have to be complete by then, but this is a case of where
>> if you don't do it from the beginning, you can't fix it later, unless
>> you've made no changes to the code.
>
>
> if you didn't bring your history to the incubator, then you obviously
> didn't intend to bring it to ASF - case closed.
>
> if you did, then you are saying that you want at least one less
> fragmentation of your project's history, but this does not stop you from
> leaving your history behind when you are promoted from the incubator if
> this is requirement.
>
>>
>>>
>>> At this point, I might reasonably expect to have to shed a project
>>> history - if its acceptance into a first-level ASF repo caused
>>> problems - and live with a history divided between two repos.
>>>
>>> Why, though, a passage to this point, via the incubator, should
>>> further fragment a project, and leave me with my history in three
>>> places, I do not understand.
>>>
>>> Isn't the incubator meant to lower the bar for projects wishing to
>>> migrate into ASF ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Where would the three places be? I can see two if we don't take
>> history and only one if we do - here, at the ASF.
>
>
> 1. codehaus (history before move to incubator)
> 2. incubator (history after move and before promotion - many changes
> will occur to the project which it is in the incubator)
> 3. geronimo (history after promotion).
>
> History is an integral part of any project, an important technical
> reference, a record of contributions made to the project and much more.
>
> I don't understand why any constraints (legal, resource-based etc...)
> should be applied to a project on entry into the incubator, although I
> would expect them to be applied strenuously before any promotion could
> occur.
Surely this is simple. Are there legal issues in the history that aren't
present in the current codebase? If the answer is no, then we can take
in the entire history?
Regards, Upayavira
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [policy] bring in full code history on incubated project?
Posted by Jules Gosnell <ju...@mortbay.com>.
Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
>
> Jules Gosnell wrote:
>
>> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry to change the subject...
>>>
>>> Can someone make a definitive statement on whether or not code
>>> history is brought into our repo from elsewhere when a podling
>>> brings code over?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I don't see how the incubator can hold a single position on this one.
>>
>> There are good reasons both for and against, depending on your project.
>>
>
> We certainly can have a position, and then deal with exceptions.
>
>
>> Rather than making a decision which is bound to fly in the face of
>> some potential incubatees, why can it not simply be left to individual
>> projects to decide for themselves?
>
>
> Because IMO the primary purpose of the incubator is to protect and
> promote the ASFs interests, not of the candidate individual projects.
> That's SourceForge.
>
>>
>> My understanding of the incubator's role, was that issues like this
>> did not have to be resolved until a project sought promotion up out of
>> the incubator.
>
>
> Well, things have to be complete by then, but this is a case of where if
> you don't do it from the beginning, you can't fix it later, unless
> you've made no changes to the code.
if you didn't bring your history to the incubator, then you obviously
didn't intend to bring it to ASF - case closed.
if you did, then you are saying that you want at least one less
fragmentation of your project's history, but this does not stop you from
leaving your history behind when you are promoted from the incubator if
this is requirement.
>
>>
>> At this point, I might reasonably expect to have to shed a project
>> history - if its acceptance into a first-level ASF repo caused
>> problems - and live with a history divided between two repos.
>>
>> Why, though, a passage to this point, via the incubator, should
>> further fragment a project, and leave me with my history in three
>> places, I do not understand.
>>
>> Isn't the incubator meant to lower the bar for projects wishing to
>> migrate into ASF ?
>
>
> Where would the three places be? I can see two if we don't take history
> and only one if we do - here, at the ASF.
1. codehaus (history before move to incubator)
2. incubator (history after move and before promotion - many changes
will occur to the project which it is in the incubator)
3. geronimo (history after promotion).
History is an integral part of any project, an important technical
reference, a record of contributions made to the project and much more.
I don't understand why any constraints (legal, resource-based etc...)
should be applied to a project on entry into the incubator, although I
would expect them to be applied strenuously before any promotion could
occur.
respectfully,
Jules
>
> geir
>
>>
>>
>> Jules (WADI)
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [policy] bring in full code history on incubated project?
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Jules Gosnell wrote:
> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Jules Gosnell wrote:
>>
>>> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sorry to change the subject...
>>>>
>>>> Can someone make a definitive statement on whether or not code
>>>> history is brought into our repo from elsewhere when a podling
>>>> brings code over?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't see how the incubator can hold a single position on this one.
>>>
>>> There are good reasons both for and against, depending on your project.
>>>
>>
>> We certainly can have a position, and then deal with exceptions.
>>
>>
>>> Rather than making a decision which is bound to fly in the face of
>>> some potential incubatees, why can it not simply be left to
>>> individual projects to decide for themselves?
>>
>>
>>
>> Because IMO the primary purpose of the incubator is to protect and
>> promote the ASFs interests, not of the candidate individual projects.
>> That's SourceForge.
>>
>>>
>>> My understanding of the incubator's role, was that issues like this
>>> did not have to be resolved until a project sought promotion up out
>>> of the incubator.
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, things have to be complete by then, but this is a case of where
>> if you don't do it from the beginning, you can't fix it later, unless
>> you've made no changes to the code.
>
>
> if you didn't bring your history to the incubator, then you obviously
> didn't intend to bring it to ASF - case closed.
That's true. I would assume that an OSS project moving here would
indeed want to keep it though....
>
> if you did, then you are saying that you want at least one less
> fragmentation of your project's history, but this does not stop you from
> leaving your history behind when you are promoted from the incubator.
I can't imagine why you'd want to do that.
>
>>
>>>
>>> At this point, I might reasonably expect to have to shed a project
>>> history - if its acceptance into a first-level ASF repo caused
>>> problems - and live with a history divided between two repos.
>>>
>>> Why, though, a passage to this point, via the incubator, should
>>> further fragment a project, and leave me with my history in three
>>> places, I do not understand.
>>>
>>> Isn't the incubator meant to lower the bar for projects wishing to
>>> migrate into ASF ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Where would the three places be? I can see two if we don't take
>> history and only one if we do - here, at the ASF.
>
>
> 1. codehaus (history before move to incubator)
> 2. incubator (history after move and before promotion - many changes
> will occur to the project which it is in the incubator)
> 3. geronimo (history after promotion).
>
> History is an integral part of any project, an important technical
> reference, a record of contributions made to the project and much more.
Right - so why would you want to abandon the history when going to
Geronimo? I can see it happening going from codehaus to incubator if
you chose to do that (although I wouldn't), but we should be able to
keep it when going to G, right?
>
> The incubator is a grey area between outside and inside ASF.
No - it's inside the ASF.
>
> I don't understand why any constraints (legal, resource-based etc...)
> should be applied to a project on entry into the incubator, although I
> would expect them to be applied strenuously before any promotion could
> occur.
Because the incubator is a project of the ASF, and therefore responsible
for what happens here. It's not a "no-man's land".
geir
>
>
> respectfully,
>
>
> Jules
>
>
>
>>
>> geir
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jules (WADI)
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [policy] bring in full code history on incubated project?
Posted by Jules Gosnell <ju...@mortbay.com>.
Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
>
> Jules Gosnell wrote:
>
>> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry to change the subject...
>>>
>>> Can someone make a definitive statement on whether or not code
>>> history is brought into our repo from elsewhere when a podling
>>> brings code over?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I don't see how the incubator can hold a single position on this one.
>>
>> There are good reasons both for and against, depending on your project.
>>
>
> We certainly can have a position, and then deal with exceptions.
>
>
>> Rather than making a decision which is bound to fly in the face of
>> some potential incubatees, why can it not simply be left to individual
>> projects to decide for themselves?
>
>
> Because IMO the primary purpose of the incubator is to protect and
> promote the ASFs interests, not of the candidate individual projects.
> That's SourceForge.
>
>>
>> My understanding of the incubator's role, was that issues like this
>> did not have to be resolved until a project sought promotion up out of
>> the incubator.
>
>
> Well, things have to be complete by then, but this is a case of where if
> you don't do it from the beginning, you can't fix it later, unless
> you've made no changes to the code.
if you didn't bring your history to the incubator, then you obviously
didn't intend to bring it to ASF - case closed.
if you did, then you are saying that you want at least one less
fragmentation of your project's history, but this does not stop you from
leaving your history behind when you are promoted from the incubator.
>
>>
>> At this point, I might reasonably expect to have to shed a project
>> history - if its acceptance into a first-level ASF repo caused
>> problems - and live with a history divided between two repos.
>>
>> Why, though, a passage to this point, via the incubator, should
>> further fragment a project, and leave me with my history in three
>> places, I do not understand.
>>
>> Isn't the incubator meant to lower the bar for projects wishing to
>> migrate into ASF ?
>
>
> Where would the three places be? I can see two if we don't take history
> and only one if we do - here, at the ASF.
1. codehaus (history before move to incubator)
2. incubator (history after move and before promotion - many changes
will occur to the project which it is in the incubator)
3. geronimo (history after promotion).
History is an integral part of any project, an important technical
reference, a record of contributions made to the project and much more.
The incubator is a grey area between outside and inside ASF.
I don't understand why any constraints (legal, resource-based etc...)
should be applied to a project on entry into the incubator, although I
would expect them to be applied strenuously before any promotion could
occur.
respectfully,
Jules
>
> geir
>
>>
>>
>> Jules (WADI)
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [policy] bring in full code history on incubated project?
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Jules Gosnell wrote:
> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>> Sorry to change the subject...
>>
>> Can someone make a definitive statement on whether or not code
>> history is brought into our repo from elsewhere when a podling brings
>> code over?
>>
>>
>
> I don't see how the incubator can hold a single position on this one.
>
> There are good reasons both for and against, depending on your project.
>
We certainly can have a position, and then deal with exceptions.
> Rather than making a decision which is bound to fly in the face of some
> potential incubatees, why can it not simply be left to individual
> projects to decide for themselves?
Because IMO the primary purpose of the incubator is to protect and
promote the ASFs interests, not of the candidate individual projects.
That's SourceForge.
>
> My understanding of the incubator's role, was that issues like this did
> not have to be resolved until a project sought promotion up out of the
> incubator.
Well, things have to be complete by then, but this is a case of where if
you don't do it from the beginning, you can't fix it later, unless
you've made no changes to the code.
>
> At this point, I might reasonably expect to have to shed a project
> history - if its acceptance into a first-level ASF repo caused problems
> - and live with a history divided between two repos.
>
> Why, though, a passage to this point, via the incubator, should further
> fragment a project, and leave me with my history in three places, I do
> not understand.
>
> Isn't the incubator meant to lower the bar for projects wishing to
> migrate into ASF ?
Where would the three places be? I can see two if we don't take history
and only one if we do - here, at the ASF.
geir
>
>
> Jules (WADI)
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org