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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com> on 2009/05/12 17:14:38 UTC
This problem of mine
So, those of you may be aware that the JSecurity/Ki podling currently
is "administratively stuck" on a debate about its name. First some
history then a brief explanation of my position.
After a long and arduous debate the podling voted to change its name
from JSecurity to Ki. After the vote a company named FixFlyer sent us
a notice that it is their position that the name overlaps with their
java based security product. See
http://www.jsecurity.org/node/1081#comment-289
Now, it's my opinion based on my experience in the financial industry
that their claim has great merit. I think the confusion comes from
the dual meaning of the word security in finance. People compare the
meaning as in financial instrument with that of computer security and
come to the erroneous conclusion that there is no overlap.
What FixFlyer has built in Java is a financial routing engine, not
unlike ServiceMix, that wires together all the disparate endpoints
that one needs to support the trading of financial securities. Some
of the critical and hard bits are the authentication and authorization
of counterparties and the management of sessions when coordinating the
execution of a trade; this is where there is overlap w/ JSecurity.
Now, FixFlyer has a product named Ki that exercises these counterparty
networks to make sure they they conform to standards and are secure.
I have deep and wide experience in building such systems and can say
that I can see where executives who are shopping around for such a
product can easily become confused with ASF Ki and think that it's the
open source arm of the FixFlyer, much like Novel's OpenSUSE.
I'd like someone to come up with a concise argument that would allow
me to let this go other than "nope, it's not the same". Otherwise, I
feel that I need to bring up a vote to put the issue to bed once and
for all.
Regards,
Alan
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Re: This problem of mine
Posted by Les Hazlewood <lh...@apache.org>.
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com>wrote:
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 5:14 PM, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ...I'd like someone to come up with a concise argument that would allow
>>>>> me to
>>>>> let this go other than "nope, it's not the same". Otherwise, I feel
>>>>> that I
>>>>> need to bring up a vote to put the issue to bed once and for all....
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The only thing that I can say is that from the ASF's point of view
>>>> your project's name is "Apache Ki", no just "Ki".
>>>>
>>>
>>> So, this is an interesting point. Can we change Apache Geronimo's name
>>> to Apache WebSphere and get a way with it?
>>>
>>
>> The main point is that you and I disagree on whether FixFlyer Ki and
>> Apache Ki are in the same domain.
>>
>> I have neither broad nor deep experience with securities trading systems,
>> but I do know what financial securities are. And I claim that someone
>> knowledgeable enough about computer systems to be in a position to evaluate
>> software for securities trading systems, should know the difference between
>> Java security and Securities Trading.
>>
>
> I think you missed my point and that is that they are comparing their Java
> security system, not the financial instruments, against JSecurity's. Both
> provide the same functionality where their vertical application overlaps
> with our horizontal application, that is, Java security.
Really? Where do they make that comparison? This is the first I've heard of
such a thing.
They were asking us to reconsider the name 'Ki' explicitly because it might
cause confusion to and end-user community (e.g. if I was googling for
FixFlyer's 'Ki' and found instead Apache's Ki, I might be confused). They
made no such claim of functionality overlap that I'm aware of.
Cheers,
Les
Re: This problem of mine
Posted by Brian Fox <br...@infinity.nu>.
>
>
> What I don't get is why would anyone want to keep the name if there
> are potential overlaps or troubles ahead?
My thoughts exactly.
>
> I mean, there are probably better (coding) and harder (releasing,
> graduating) things to do than getting stuck about the name.
> Why don't you (as a podling) simply move on with another cool name,
> for example, just brainstorming here... "JSecurity"... or something
> similar?
>
+1
Re: This problem of mine
Posted by Santiago Gala <sa...@gmail.com>.
El mié, 13-05-2009 a las 00:33 +0200, Emmanuel Lecharny escribió:
> Bernd Fondermann wrote:
> >> JSecurity was deemed as a potential naming conflict risk (much in the same
> >> way Ki is now), so we dropped it, and finally came to a vote to change the
> >> name to Ki. But this resolution took over 4 or 5 months to finally come to
> >> a favorable vote, so we didn't want to go through that painful process all
> >> over again, since it seemed like no one was willing to come to consensus on
> >> other names. It is very difficult to find an even remotely-correlated name
> >> in the security space that might not infringe on another
> >> site/company/product/trademark/patent.
> >>
> >
> > ok, I see. At least, for JSecurity, these conflicts never came up, did they?
> >
> http://www.juniper.net/security/
>
> > That's why so many project go with names from biona or mythology.
> >
> >
> >> Given the difficulty and the enormous amount of time spent already, we just
> >> wanted to move on to focus exactly on the things you mention, and only worry
> >> about changing the name yet again if it was absolutely required by the
> >> Incubator to do so. That being said, if the Incubator says "the Ki podling
> >> must change its name", then fine, we'll be happy to do so, but most of us
> >> didn't want to spend the effort worrying about it unless necessary.
> >>
> >
> > To me, it seems neccessary, but this is just my 2 eurocent.
> >
> It took 4 months to move from JSecurity to Ki, just because, very like
> this thread, people are *discussing* for ever something which would be
> immediately solved if common sense was applied : avoid as much as
> possible any risk, and change the name if the risk is becoming a reality.
>
This is the answer you will most likely get from legal. Lawyers know
that their business is about managing risk, and risking a conflict with
a new name is typically not worth it. It is different when the name has
been in use before and has built up some brand power.
The ASF is typically not about deciding for the projects/podlings, but
about letting them decide. If something so small (though with biksheding
potential) is dragging the community, I'd see it more as a symptom of
another, hidden conflict, than as a real problem.
That said, and if a vote on this issue would come to the PRC I would
vote against having a *new* name that has a conflict, versus a well
known one in the same situation. And I bet the lawyers would do the
same.
> It will take another 4 months to decide to switch from Ki to something
> more appropriate if we follow the same pattern. That's a waste of time
> and energy.
>
Don't follow the same pattern, then. I don't have much better ideas than
this obvious one, though.
> Bernd, I'm totally on the same page with you.
>
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Re: This problem of mine
Posted by Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@apache.org>.
Bernd Fondermann wrote:
>> JSecurity was deemed as a potential naming conflict risk (much in the same
>> way Ki is now), so we dropped it, and finally came to a vote to change the
>> name to Ki. But this resolution took over 4 or 5 months to finally come to
>> a favorable vote, so we didn't want to go through that painful process all
>> over again, since it seemed like no one was willing to come to consensus on
>> other names. It is very difficult to find an even remotely-correlated name
>> in the security space that might not infringe on another
>> site/company/product/trademark/patent.
>>
>
> ok, I see. At least, for JSecurity, these conflicts never came up, did they?
>
http://www.juniper.net/security/
> That's why so many project go with names from biona or mythology.
>
>
>> Given the difficulty and the enormous amount of time spent already, we just
>> wanted to move on to focus exactly on the things you mention, and only worry
>> about changing the name yet again if it was absolutely required by the
>> Incubator to do so. That being said, if the Incubator says "the Ki podling
>> must change its name", then fine, we'll be happy to do so, but most of us
>> didn't want to spend the effort worrying about it unless necessary.
>>
>
> To me, it seems neccessary, but this is just my 2 eurocent.
>
It took 4 months to move from JSecurity to Ki, just because, very like
this thread, people are *discussing* for ever something which would be
immediately solved if common sense was applied : avoid as much as
possible any risk, and change the name if the risk is becoming a reality.
It will take another 4 months to decide to switch from Ki to something
more appropriate if we follow the same pattern. That's a waste of time
and energy.
Bernd, I'm totally on the same page with you.
--
--
cordialement, regards,
Emmanuel Lécharny
www.iktek.com
directory.apache.org
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Re: This problem of mine
Posted by Bernd Fondermann <be...@googlemail.com>.
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 22:58, Les Hazlewood <lh...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 3:55 PM, Bernd Fondermann <
> bernd.fondermann@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> What I don't get is why would anyone want to keep the name if there
>> are potential overlaps or troubles ahead?
>> I mean, there are probably better (coding) and harder (releasing,
>> graduating) things to do than getting stuck about the name.
>> Why don't you (as a podling) simply move on with another cool name,
>> for example, just brainstorming here... "JSecurity"... or something
>> similar?
>
>
> JSecurity was deemed as a potential naming conflict risk (much in the same
> way Ki is now), so we dropped it, and finally came to a vote to change the
> name to Ki. But this resolution took over 4 or 5 months to finally come to
> a favorable vote, so we didn't want to go through that painful process all
> over again, since it seemed like no one was willing to come to consensus on
> other names. It is very difficult to find an even remotely-correlated name
> in the security space that might not infringe on another
> site/company/product/trademark/patent.
ok, I see. At least, for JSecurity, these conflicts never came up, did they?
That's why so many project go with names from biona or mythology.
> Given the difficulty and the enormous amount of time spent already, we just
> wanted to move on to focus exactly on the things you mention, and only worry
> about changing the name yet again if it was absolutely required by the
> Incubator to do so. That being said, if the Incubator says "the Ki podling
> must change its name", then fine, we'll be happy to do so, but most of us
> didn't want to spend the effort worrying about it unless necessary.
To me, it seems neccessary, but this is just my 2 eurocent.
Bernd
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Re: This problem of mine
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:58 PM, Les Hazlewood <lh...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...if the Incubator says "the Ki podling
> must change its name", then fine, we'll be happy to do so, but most of us
> didn't want to spend the effort worrying about it unless necessary....
If that can help, I'm happy to start a vote here so that Incubator PMC
members can decide if a name change is needed. There's no perfect
solution, so having an "external instance" make the decision might
help the project.
-Bertrand
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Re: This problem of mine
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:10 PM, Les Hazlewood <lh...@apache.org> wrote:
> How do you check to ensure that the name is actually usable? We did a lot
> of due diligence on Ki, checked USPTO searches for patents/trademarks on Ki
> and found not a single result, and performed lots of google searching and
> still we're in the current predicament. How does one ever rest assured the
> name is 'safe' unless you just pick complete gibberish?
It never is "safe". If you have zero hits on Google it is 'more safe'
than there is 300 millions, since you would not have a clue what all
those hits are. But, even zero presence on the Net doesn't exclude
people owning some trademarks. If I am not mistaken, Google is
apparently settling "Android" at the moment. Only time will tell... It
is largely a matter of reducing the risks. The fact that "Apache Ki"
is challenged (at least softly) now is not a sign of failure for the
last round of name change, more like "bad luck".
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
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Re: This problem of mine
Posted by Les Hazlewood <lh...@apache.org>.
How do you check to ensure that the name is actually usable? We did a lot
of due diligence on Ki, checked USPTO searches for patents/trademarks on Ki
and found not a single result, and performed lots of google searching and
still we're in the current predicament. How does one ever rest assured the
name is 'safe' unless you just pick complete gibberish?
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:58 PM, Les Hazlewood <lh...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > But this resolution took over 4 or 5 months to finally come to
> > a favorable vote, so we didn't want to go through that painful process
> all
> > over again,
>
> Suggestion; Allow people to submit suggestions for 1 week, then vote
> for 72 hours on the names received. If more than one name in the Top 1
> position, then vote again on those names only. Rinse-repeat. You
> should be done in less than 2 weeks.
>
>
> Cheers
> --
> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
>
> I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
> I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
> I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
>
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> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: This problem of mine
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:58 PM, Les Hazlewood <lh...@apache.org> wrote:
> But this resolution took over 4 or 5 months to finally come to
> a favorable vote, so we didn't want to go through that painful process all
> over again,
Suggestion; Allow people to submit suggestions for 1 week, then vote
for 72 hours on the names received. If more than one name in the Top 1
position, then vote again on those names only. Rinse-repeat. You
should be done in less than 2 weeks.
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
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Re: This problem of mine
Posted by Les Hazlewood <lh...@apache.org>.
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 3:55 PM, Bernd Fondermann <
bernd.fondermann@googlemail.com> wrote:
What I don't get is why would anyone want to keep the name if there
> are potential overlaps or troubles ahead?
> I mean, there are probably better (coding) and harder (releasing,
> graduating) things to do than getting stuck about the name.
> Why don't you (as a podling) simply move on with another cool name,
> for example, just brainstorming here... "JSecurity"... or something
> similar?
JSecurity was deemed as a potential naming conflict risk (much in the same
way Ki is now), so we dropped it, and finally came to a vote to change the
name to Ki. But this resolution took over 4 or 5 months to finally come to
a favorable vote, so we didn't want to go through that painful process all
over again, since it seemed like no one was willing to come to consensus on
other names. It is very difficult to find an even remotely-correlated name
in the security space that might not infringe on another
site/company/product/trademark/patent.
Given the difficulty and the enormous amount of time spent already, we just
wanted to move on to focus exactly on the things you mention, and only worry
about changing the name yet again if it was absolutely required by the
Incubator to do so. That being said, if the Incubator says "the Ki podling
must change its name", then fine, we'll be happy to do so, but most of us
didn't want to spend the effort worrying about it unless necessary.
Regards,
Les
Re: This problem of mine
Posted by Bernd Fondermann <be...@googlemail.com>.
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 21:46, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
>
> On May 12, 2009, at 11:22 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
>>
>> On May 12, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On May 12, 2009, at 10:56 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 12, 2009, at 9:06 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 5:14 PM, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...I'd like someone to come up with a concise argument that would
>>>>>> allow me to
>>>>>> let this go other than "nope, it's not the same". Otherwise, I feel
>>>>>> that I
>>>>>> need to bring up a vote to put the issue to bed once and for all....
>>>>>
>>>>> The only thing that I can say is that from the ASF's point of view
>>>>> your project's name is "Apache Ki", no just "Ki".
>>>>
>>>> So, this is an interesting point. Can we change Apache Geronimo's name
>>>> to Apache WebSphere and get a way with it?
>>>
>>> The main point is that you and I disagree on whether FixFlyer Ki and
>>> Apache Ki are in the same domain.
>>>
>>> I have neither broad nor deep experience with securities trading systems,
>>> but I do know what financial securities are. And I claim that someone
>>> knowledgeable enough about computer systems to be in a position to evaluate
>>> software for securities trading systems, should know the difference between
>>> Java security and Securities Trading.
>>
>> I think you missed my point and that is that they are comparing their Java
>> security system, not the financial instruments, against JSecurity's.
>
> Not what I said.
>
>> Both provide the same functionality where their vertical application
>> overlaps with our horizontal application, that is, Java security.
>
> There's no evidence of this that I can see. Maybe we're looking at different
> source documents?
>>
>> It is not unusual to see companies break out pieces a product line and
>> open source them.
>
> So I went to the FixFlyer web site yet again, and can't find any evidence
> that they are in the same application domain.
>
> Neither the Ki Certification web page
> http://www.fixflyer.com/html-files/KiCertification.html nor their pdf
> http://www.fixflyer.com/materials/software/Ki/FlyerKiCertification.pdf mentions
> the word security.
>
> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>>
>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> About the actual risks associated with FixFlyer's considering that
>>>>> Apache Ki infringes on their trademarks, the best might be to ask
>>>>> legal-discuss@apache.org.
>>>>
>>>> Do we want to get into this kind of tussle straight out of the gate w/ a
>>>> podling that's been "using" this name for such short while?
What I don't get is why would anyone want to keep the name if there
are potential overlaps or troubles ahead?
I mean, there are probably better (coding) and harder (releasing,
graduating) things to do than getting stuck about the name.
Why don't you (as a podling) simply move on with another cool name,
for example, just brainstorming here... "JSecurity"... or something
similar?
Have fun,
Bernd
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Re: This problem of mine
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
On May 12, 2009, at 11:22 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
> On May 12, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>
>>
>> On May 12, 2009, at 10:56 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On May 12, 2009, at 9:06 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 5:14 PM, Alan D. Cabrera <list@toolazydogs.com
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> ...I'd like someone to come up with a concise argument that
>>>>> would allow me to
>>>>> let this go other than "nope, it's not the same". Otherwise, I
>>>>> feel that I
>>>>> need to bring up a vote to put the issue to bed once and for
>>>>> all....
>>>>
>>>> The only thing that I can say is that from the ASF's point of view
>>>> your project's name is "Apache Ki", no just "Ki".
>>>
>>> So, this is an interesting point. Can we change Apache Geronimo's
>>> name to Apache WebSphere and get a way with it?
>>
>> The main point is that you and I disagree on whether FixFlyer Ki
>> and Apache Ki are in the same domain.
>>
>> I have neither broad nor deep experience with securities trading
>> systems, but I do know what financial securities are. And I claim
>> that someone knowledgeable enough about computer systems to be in a
>> position to evaluate software for securities trading systems,
>> should know the difference between Java security and Securities
>> Trading.
>
> I think you missed my point and that is that they are comparing
> their Java security system, not the financial instruments, against
> JSecurity's.
Not what I said.
> Both provide the same functionality where their vertical application
> overlaps with our horizontal application, that is, Java security.
There's no evidence of this that I can see. Maybe we're looking at
different source documents?
>
> It is not unusual to see companies break out pieces a product line
> and open source them.
So I went to the FixFlyer web site yet again, and can't find any
evidence that they are in the same application domain.
Neither the Ki Certification web page http://www.fixflyer.com/html-files/KiCertification.html
nor their pdf http://www.fixflyer.com/materials/software/Ki/FlyerKiCertification.pdf
mentions the word security.
Craig
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> About the actual risks associated with FixFlyer's considering that
>>>> Apache Ki infringes on their trademarks, the best might be to ask
>>>> legal-discuss@apache.org.
>>>
>>> Do we want to get into this kind of tussle straight out of the
>>> gate w/ a podling that's been "using" this name for such short
>>> while?
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>> Craig L Russell
>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>
Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: This problem of mine
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On May 12, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>
> On May 12, 2009, at 10:56 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
>>
>> On May 12, 2009, at 9:06 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 5:14 PM, Alan D. Cabrera <list@toolazydogs.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>> ...I'd like someone to come up with a concise argument that would
>>>> allow me to
>>>> let this go other than "nope, it's not the same". Otherwise, I
>>>> feel that I
>>>> need to bring up a vote to put the issue to bed once and for
>>>> all....
>>>
>>> The only thing that I can say is that from the ASF's point of view
>>> your project's name is "Apache Ki", no just "Ki".
>>
>> So, this is an interesting point. Can we change Apache Geronimo's
>> name to Apache WebSphere and get a way with it?
>
> The main point is that you and I disagree on whether FixFlyer Ki and
> Apache Ki are in the same domain.
>
> I have neither broad nor deep experience with securities trading
> systems, but I do know what financial securities are. And I claim
> that someone knowledgeable enough about computer systems to be in a
> position to evaluate software for securities trading systems, should
> know the difference between Java security and Securities Trading.
I think you missed my point and that is that they are comparing their
Java security system, not the financial instruments, against
JSecurity's. Both provide the same functionality where their vertical
application overlaps with our horizontal application, that is, Java
security.
It is not unusual to see companies break out pieces a product line and
open source them.
> But to answer your question, if Apache WebSphere were a loose-knit
> pajama bottom, I doubt that anyone would complain about the name
> conflict. As it is, Geronimo and WebSphere are in the same domain.
Not a valid analogy.
Regards,
Alan
> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>> About the actual risks associated with FixFlyer's considering that
>>> Apache Ki infringes on their trademarks, the best might be to ask
>>> legal-discuss@apache.org.
>>
>> Do we want to get into this kind of tussle straight out of the gate
>> w/ a podling that's been "using" this name for such short while?
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
> Craig L Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
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Re: This problem of mine
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
> The main point is that you and I disagree on whether FixFlyer Ki and Apache
> Ki are in the same domain.
>
> I have neither broad nor deep experience with securities trading systems,
> but I do know what financial securities are. And I claim that someone
> knowledgeable enough about computer systems to be in a position to evaluate
> software for securities trading systems, should know the difference between
> Java security and Securities Trading.
The ASF position has in the past been to not challenge industry for a
decision in court. If FixFlyer says that they think this is a problem
for them (and/or us) we should take that seriously and try to avoid
confrontation. It is too likely that they can toss a few 100k on
legal, whereas we shouldn't. The fact that they reacted within a few
months from the selection of the Apache Ki name, suggest that there is
indeed an industry overlap. AFAIUI, the overlap is not "per
functionality" but "per industry", we would probably get away with a
"Apache Focus" (Ford Focus) but maybe not a "Apache Windows" even if
it was a mechanical gadget, we are in the same industry as Microsoft.
So, Craig, I think your position in this case is weak, and Alan's
argument is convincing and I would not like to hear that in court. My
position is that the project should find another name. I know that the
community has been through a painful such experience before, and I
hope it can be made less stressful this time.
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
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Re: This problem of mine
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
On May 12, 2009, at 10:56 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
> On May 12, 2009, at 9:06 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>
>> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 5:14 PM, Alan D. Cabrera <list@toolazydogs.com
>> > wrote:
>>> ...I'd like someone to come up with a concise argument that would
>>> allow me to
>>> let this go other than "nope, it's not the same". Otherwise, I
>>> feel that I
>>> need to bring up a vote to put the issue to bed once and for all....
>>
>> The only thing that I can say is that from the ASF's point of view
>> your project's name is "Apache Ki", no just "Ki".
>
> So, this is an interesting point. Can we change Apache Geronimo's
> name to Apache WebSphere and get a way with it?
The main point is that you and I disagree on whether FixFlyer Ki and
Apache Ki are in the same domain.
I have neither broad nor deep experience with securities trading
systems, but I do know what financial securities are. And I claim that
someone knowledgeable enough about computer systems to be in a
position to evaluate software for securities trading systems, should
know the difference between Java security and Securities Trading.
But to answer your question, if Apache WebSphere were a loose-knit
pajama bottom, I doubt that anyone would complain about the name
conflict. As it is, Geronimo and WebSphere are in the same domain.
Craig
>
>
>
>> About the actual risks associated with FixFlyer's considering that
>> Apache Ki infringes on their trademarks, the best might be to ask
>> legal-discuss@apache.org.
>
> Do we want to get into this kind of tussle straight out of the gate
> w/ a podling that's been "using" this name for such short while?
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>
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>
Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: This problem of mine
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On May 12, 2009, at 9:06 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 5:14 PM, Alan D. Cabrera
> <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
>> ...I'd like someone to come up with a concise argument that would
>> allow me to
>> let this go other than "nope, it's not the same". Otherwise, I
>> feel that I
>> need to bring up a vote to put the issue to bed once and for all....
>
> The only thing that I can say is that from the ASF's point of view
> your project's name is "Apache Ki", no just "Ki".
So, this is an interesting point. Can we change Apache Geronimo's
name to Apache WebSphere and get a way with it?
> About the actual risks associated with FixFlyer's considering that
> Apache Ki infringes on their trademarks, the best might be to ask
> legal-discuss@apache.org.
Do we want to get into this kind of tussle straight out of the gate w/
a podling that's been "using" this name for such short while?
Regards,
Alan
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Re: This problem of mine
Posted by Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@apache.org>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 5:14 PM, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
>
>> ...I'd like someone to come up with a concise argument that would allow me to
>> let this go other than "nope, it's not the same". Otherwise, I feel that I
>> need to bring up a vote to put the issue to bed once and for all....
>>
>
> The only thing that I can say is that from the ASF's point of view
> your project's name is "Apache Ki", no just "Ki".
>
> About the actual risks associated with FixFlyer's considering that
> Apache Ki infringes on their trademarks, the best might be to ask
> legal-discuss@apache.org.
>
I won't jump into the project again, but in this case, I have a bit more
info to provide.
The problem has been postponed to legal@a.o months ago, not with a big
success. I mentioned the case during ACEU to at least 3 persons, two of
them being from the board. All of them told me to send the problem to
PRC (so far, no answer), mentioning that it was not worth the risk to
fight Juniper or any other company if the name was already used.
This is something I don't get, and I see at least two problems here :
1) there is no clear process to solve such issues. Should it be
processed by legal or PRC ? Plus those two entities are not responsive,
and if we receive answer, they may be contradictory. Again, we don't
need opinion, we need a clear and legal position. Opinions don't pay the
bill when it comes to pay a lawyer.
2) I *think* than instead bothering everyone in all those instances, the
easiest way to solve this issue was to change the name. But it seems
that some people don't like simple solutions... As a consequence, it
lasts forever (around one year, so far).
Otherwise, I totally agree with what Alan has written.
--
--
cordialement, regards,
Emmanuel Lécharny
www.iktek.com
directory.apache.org
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Re: This problem of mine
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 5:14 PM, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
> ...I'd like someone to come up with a concise argument that would allow me to
> let this go other than "nope, it's not the same". Otherwise, I feel that I
> need to bring up a vote to put the issue to bed once and for all....
The only thing that I can say is that from the ASF's point of view
your project's name is "Apache Ki", no just "Ki".
About the actual risks associated with FixFlyer's considering that
Apache Ki infringes on their trademarks, the best might be to ask
legal-discuss@apache.org.
-Bertrand
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