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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Fred Juan DIAZ <fr...@yahoo.fr> on 2011/09/03 23:04:48 UTC
Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
________________________________
De : Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>
À : ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; dennis.hamilton@acm.org
Envoyé le : Samedi 3 Septembre 2011 22h53
Objet : Re: [Discuss] Lost in translation
On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> Hello Cyril,
>
> We do not know about translation in native language yet. We do not know here about the pootle server.
>
Speak for yourself, Dennis. We have several list participants here
who know about Pootle. And we have several OOo translators active on
this list. Why would you suggest otherwise?
> A question for you:
> Do you also take care of fr.ooo mailing lists? Do you know who does?
>
You should read a thread before responding. I already asked Cyril
this question and he already responded. That was yesterday. He said
he was not involved with the fr.ooo mailing lists and suggested
talking to Eric Bachard.
> - Dennis
==========================
Hi
Turning around, we're going to reach the starting point :-)
Neither Eric Bachard nor me nor Yves Dutrieux (still moderator on this list)
know who is really admin of this
users@fr.openoffice.org list which was the most active before.
We all thought it was someone from Oracle
All the others ex-moderators and the ex-fr project lead went to LO,
so we'll never know.
I guess that the answer is somewhere in Oracle... but not even sure.
Best regards
Fred Juan DIAZ
Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Posted by Raphael Bircher <r....@gmx.ch>.
Am 05.09.11 07:39, schrieb eric b:
> Hi Jean,
>
> Le 5 sept. 11 à 07:32, Jean Weber a écrit :
>
>> On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 15:19, eric b <er...@free.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>> Now, I see TDF proposes a "Board of Director". This means TDF has a
>>> pyramidal structure (read : The Cathedral and the Bazaar), will be
>>> controled
>>> by several Companies, who will decide.
>>> The simple contributor will decide nothing, but is welcome to work
>>> on what
>>> TDF owns.
>>
>> Eric,
>> Apache has a Board of Directors, too.
>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/
>>
>
> Thanks a lot for the information, I completely missed :/
>
>
>> That is a legal requirement for a Foundation.
>
>
> This is a very bad news for me (personal statement), and I'll probably
> stop there.
Yeah, and where is the problem. Your NGO for EducOOo has a bord too. If
you are agentist bords then tell my why you setup a NGO for EducOOo.
>
>
> Regards,
> Eric
>
--
My private Homepage: http://www.raphaelbircher.ch/
Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Posted by eric b <er...@free.fr>.
Hi Jean,
Le 5 sept. 11 à 07:32, Jean Weber a écrit :
> On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 15:19, eric b <er...@free.fr> wrote:
>>
>> Now, I see TDF proposes a "Board of Director". This means TDF has a
>> pyramidal structure (read : The Cathedral and the Bazaar), will be
>> controled
>> by several Companies, who will decide.
>> The simple contributor will decide nothing, but is welcome to work
>> on what
>> TDF owns.
>
> Eric,
> Apache has a Board of Directors, too.
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/
>
Thanks a lot for the information, I completely missed :/
> That is a legal requirement for a Foundation.
This is a very bad news for me (personal statement), and I'll
probably stop there.
Regards,
Eric
--
qɔᴉɹə
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Posted by Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 15:19, eric b <er...@free.fr> wrote:
>
> Now, I see TDF proposes a "Board of Director". This means TDF has a
> pyramidal structure (read : The Cathedral and the Bazaar), will be controled
> by several Companies, who will decide.
> The simple contributor will decide nothing, but is welcome to work on what
> TDF owns.
Eric,
Apache has a Board of Directors, too.
http://www.apache.org/foundation/
That is a legal requirement for a Foundation.
--Jean
[OT] TDF Board of Directors (was: [Discuss] Lost in translation)
Posted by eric b <er...@free.fr>.
Le 5 sept. 11 à 15:20, Eike Rathke a écrit :
> Hi eric,
Hi Eike,
> On Monday, 2011-09-05 07:19:35 +0200, eric b wrote:
>
>> Now, I see TDF proposes a "Board of Director". This means TDF has
>> a pyramidal structure (read : The Cathedral and the Bazaar), will be
>> controled by several Companies, who will decide.
>>
> This is just not true.
I simply disagree.
> Please read
>
I'm not here to talk about TDF, but I remember what happened : it was
created without inform the Community, but after.
The first step is always the most important.
> and http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/CommunityBylaws#Governance
>
I can't understand it completely, because the english is too
complicated for my poor level. Has this document being translated in
french ?
I'm not sure everybody will understand it.
> And please stop bashing TDF/LibO here.
First, here is not TDF nor LibreOffice.
Second, and without say more, you won't change my opinion about TDF.
Regards,
Eric
--
qɔᴉɹə
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
[OT] TDF Board of Directors (was: [Discuss] Lost in translation)
Posted by Eike Rathke <oo...@erack.de>.
Hi eric,
On Monday, 2011-09-05 07:19:35 +0200, eric b wrote:
> Now, I see TDF proposes a "Board of Director". This means TDF has a
> pyramidal structure (read : The Cathedral and the Bazaar), will be
> controled by several Companies, who will decide.
> The simple contributor will decide nothing, but is welcome to work
> on what TDF owns.
This is just not true. Please read
http://www.mail-archive.com/announce@documentfoundation.org/msg00063.html
and http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/CommunityBylaws#Governance
And please stop bashing TDF/LibO here.
Thanks
Eike
--
PGP/OpenPGP/GnuPG encrypted mail preferred in all private communication.
Key ID: 0x293C05FD - 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD
Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
On Sep 5, 2011 6:20 AM, "eric b" <er...@free.fr> wrote:
> I'll add further information : you represent TDF.
I do not represent TDF, Eric; never have.
I do speak freely though, in both communities, and try to say things how I
see them. In this place that's included exploring solutions to community
problems via co-operation with TDF/LibreOffice a few times.
I am merely a volunteer in both projects; a moderator of the ooo-users
mailing list here and the administrator of the Board elections there. I
volunteered for the latter role so that everyone involved could stand for
election if they wanted - since I am not a leader there, I do not intend to
do so.
My focus is and remains a desire to ensure that the wider software freedom
meta-community is well served. My comments about how Apache should act as
steward of the OOo trademarks reflect only that and not a desire to
appropriate them for anyone else (as far as I know TDF don't want them).
I remain convinced that in this project we need to dial up the
community-serving pragmatism and dial down the dogma. In the end what
matters is the use of a fine and free productivity suite by hundreds of
millions of people, and I remain sad that we've not together worked out a
way to protect that usage during the demise of Sun and the departure of
Oracle.
S.
Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Posted by eric b <er...@free.fr>.
Le 4 sept. 11 à 17:58, Simon Phipps a écrit :
> On Sep 4, 2011 7:04 AM, "eric b" <er...@free.fr> wrote:
>
>> Stefan is Simon Phipps friend in the background.
>> Sophie belongs to Louis's friends list.
>> What I don't know is about Louis and TDF in the background.
>>
>> Maybe you see better why everything is blocked now ?
>
> No, I'm not clear on your accusation.
That's no problem for me to explain again : a lot of people are
completely lost, and confused in this mailing list. And people who
mostly prefer code, would like to see more code :)
So I added simple information: Mr X is in Team A, and Mr Y one is
in Team B. C is friend of D, and so on.
I tried to limit what I wrote to facts, say to a "Mathematical"
description, but no statement, really. I know I'm not native
speaker, and I'm sorry if I was not enough precise for your taste.
I'll add further information : you represent TDF. Another fact is
that TDF has been created without inform the OpenOffice.org
Community, including Project Leads. More precisely, some people
suddenly declared they created it. This divided the Project Leads,
created a lot of confusion, and a lot of people no longer understand
what happens.
Now, I see TDF proposes a "Board of Director". This means TDF has a
pyramidal structure (read : The Cathedral and the Bazaar), will be
controled by several Companies, who will decide.
The simple contributor will decide nothing, but is welcome to work on
what TDF owns.
As you can see, there are no personal statement, just facts.
> But since you're including me in it,
Yes, but is was a simple description, a reminder for people who no
longer understand why you are there. You are there mostly for
lobbying (OpenOffice.org trademark), to defend a group of Companies
who aims to control Free Software, in a "Governance" or some close
word sense.
Here, are skilled people, who would like to share the knowledge, but
without being controled by any company, and driven by meritocraty :
they are there just because they want to share, including with
LibreOffice, obviously.
Those people are Apache OpenOffice.org
Regards,
Eric Bachard
--
qɔᴉɹə
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
On Sep 4, 2011 7:04 AM, "eric b" <er...@free.fr> wrote:
> Stefan is Simon Phipps friend in the background.
> Sophie belongs to Louis's friends list.
> What I don't know is about Louis and TDF in the background.
>
> Maybe you see better why everything is blocked now ?
No, I'm not clear on your accusation. But since you're including me in it, I
think I would like to understand, perhaps you could clarify, as I have quite
a few people in my address book and I would be surprised if they are all
part of the same conspiracy.
S.
Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Posted by eric b <er...@free.fr>.
Hi Rob,
Le 4 sept. 11 à 00:10, Rob Weir a écrit :
> On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 5:48 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>> We didn't know to contact JB or Sophie.
>>
>
> Please stop saying "we don't know".
The right people to contact are Louis, and Stefan Taxhet. They got
the admin rights, in a lot of projects.
> It is really annoying to those who do. I'm sure that you have no
> firm basis for believing that no one on the list knows how to
> contact Sophie.
> How could you possibly?
Please do not expect anything from those people : they used the fr
project to make LibreOffice and TDF propaganda (the de project did
the same), and their goal is only to derivate the OpenOffice.org
trademark. At the end, to avoid forwarding the leadership, they
removed the possibility to manage the project, I'd say poisoning it.
That's simply why I was searching reliable and trustable volunteers,
to continue / reset the fr project a "sunstainable" way.
Lot of NLC projects are in the same situation, and Apache
OpenOffice.org mentors should consider as extremely urgent to take
care about them.
> Of course, you could just say "I don't know", but in that case,
> what's the point?
Stefan is Simon Phipps friend in the background.
Sophie belongs to Louis's friends list.
What I don't know is about Louis and TDF in the background.
Maybe you see better why everything is blocked now ?
Reminder : the main goal of LibreOffice people is to derivate the
OpenOffice.org trademark. That's the reason why I'd like to read more
often " LibreOffice is NOT OpenOffice.org"
Back to my concern, the Education Project received a lot of bad
knocks Sophie Gautier and her Friends. Because it was one of the most
promising project (and one of the most active) in OpenOffice.org.
Control it belongs to a long time strategic plan. Please have a look
at : http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/US-Marketing/
Projects/LibOEducation
And you'll see everything is ready since a long time, and what the
real objective is. I just hope you understand why continue the
OpenOffice.org Education Project, and maintain seriously the NLC
project inside Apache OpenOffice.org is essential...
Now you got the keys, and I'll stay silencious. Promised :-)
Regards,
Eric
--
qɔᴉɹə
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
The royal we is often presumptuous, so take it under
advisement not to speak on behalf of the group unless
granted such permission more or less explicitly.
----- Original Message -----
> From: Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Cc:
> Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2011 6:42 PM
> Subject: RE: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
>
> I think you are miss-reading me and certainly making too big of a deal about
> this. Please get off my back. Or practice diplomacy, perhaps?
>
> No one here, in the past two weeks, has suggested that either JB or Sophie had
> been administrating that portion of fr.OO.o and might still be able to help.
> Why someone who knew that had nothing to offer since Eric described the problem
> on this list on August 19, I cannot say. I consider it quite generous of me to
> say that "we didn't know"
>
> Did you know it? Do you know who knew it?
>
> Also, until Raphael just explained the deal with kenaiadmin as the
> "project" leader, was that knowledge "we" had?
>
> - Dennis
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 15:11
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
>
> On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 5:48 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>> We didn't know to contact JB or Sophie.
>>
>
> Please stop saying "we don't know". It is really annoying to
> those
> who do. I'm sure that you have no firm basis for believing that no one
> on the list knows how to contact Sophie. How could you possibly?
>
> Of course, you could just say "I don't know", but in that case,
> what's
> the point? It is not really useful for everyone who doesn't know an
> answer to a question to jump in to share that fact. What if we all
> did that? So maybe don't try to be the first one to post a response
> to a question if you don't know the answer. Wait a little while and
> give someone who does know a chance to post a response. For example,
> in this case, the two people who did post informative answers within
> minutes of your "we don't know".
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Rob
>
>> We can contact them.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: FR web forum [mailto:OOo@athena.apache.org]
>> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 14:36
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
>>
>> Bonjour Fred ;-)
>>
>>> I guess that the answer is somewhere in Oracle... but not even sure.
>> Maybe ask to the ex french community members.
>> Did you contact JB Faure or Sophie Gautier about that?
>>
>>
>
RE: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
I think you are miss-reading me and certainly making too big of a deal about this. Please get off my back. Or practice diplomacy, perhaps?
No one here, in the past two weeks, has suggested that either JB or Sophie had been administrating that portion of fr.OO.o and might still be able to help. Why someone who knew that had nothing to offer since Eric described the problem on this list on August 19, I cannot say. I consider it quite generous of me to say that "we didn't know"
Did you know it? Do you know who knew it?
Also, until Raphael just explained the deal with kenaiadmin as the "project" leader, was that knowledge "we" had?
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 15:11
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 5:48 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> We didn't know to contact JB or Sophie.
>
Please stop saying "we don't know". It is really annoying to those
who do. I'm sure that you have no firm basis for believing that no one
on the list knows how to contact Sophie. How could you possibly?
Of course, you could just say "I don't know", but in that case, what's
the point? It is not really useful for everyone who doesn't know an
answer to a question to jump in to share that fact. What if we all
did that? So maybe don't try to be the first one to post a response
to a question if you don't know the answer. Wait a little while and
give someone who does know a chance to post a response. For example,
in this case, the two people who did post informative answers within
minutes of your "we don't know".
Thanks,
-Rob
> We can contact them.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FR web forum [mailto:OOo@athena.apache.org]
> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 14:36
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
>
> Bonjour Fred ;-)
>
>>I guess that the answer is somewhere in Oracle... but not even sure.
> Maybe ask to the ex french community members.
> Did you contact JB Faure or Sophie Gautier about that?
>
>
Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 5:48 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> We didn't know to contact JB or Sophie.
>
Please stop saying "we don't know". It is really annoying to those
who do. I'm sure that you have no firm basis for believing that no one
on the list knows how to contact Sophie. How could you possibly?
Of course, you could just say "I don't know", but in that case, what's
the point? It is not really useful for everyone who doesn't know an
answer to a question to jump in to share that fact. What if we all
did that? So maybe don't try to be the first one to post a response
to a question if you don't know the answer. Wait a little while and
give someone who does know a chance to post a response. For example,
in this case, the two people who did post informative answers within
minutes of your "we don't know".
Thanks,
-Rob
> We can contact them.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FR web forum [mailto:OOo@athena.apache.org]
> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 14:36
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
>
> Bonjour Fred ;-)
>
>>I guess that the answer is somewhere in Oracle... but not even sure.
> Maybe ask to the ex french community members.
> Did you contact JB Faure or Sophie Gautier about that?
>
>
Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Posted by eric b <er...@free.fr>.
Hi Dennis,
Le 4 sept. 11 à 20:23, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :
> For the record, I have ceased my effort to track down someone to
> administer those lists.
>
I'd like to thank you for your efforts, and your time, to help us.
> I have learned that the specific problem of the annoying echo has
> been solved and discussion on the effected lists is continuing
> normally.
>
Solved, is imho not the right word : it was Yves Dutrieux, who
simulated (don't ask me the exact process he used), say
"unsubscribed" the auto-respoonder email. But this is only a hack,
and we still cannot fix true spam. While I'm at it, Yves told me the
"blacklist" filter from Sympa seems to be not working.
This is my last infomation about the fr mailing lists situation.
To be continued,
Eric
--
qɔᴉɹə
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
RE: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
For the record, I have ceased my effort to track down someone to administer those lists.
I have learned that the specific problem of the annoying echo has been solved and discussion on the effected lists is continuing normally.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org]
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 14:48
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; oooforum@free.fr
Subject: RE: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
We didn't know to contact JB or Sophie.
We can contact them.
Thank you.
-----Original Message-----
From: FR web forum [mailto:OOo@athena.apache.org]
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 14:36
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Bonjour Fred ;-)
>I guess that the answer is somewhere in Oracle... but not even sure.
Maybe ask to the ex french community members.
Did you contact JB Faure or Sophie Gautier about that?
Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Posted by FR web forum <OO...@athena.apache.org>.
>We didn't know to contact JB or Sophie.
You must go to LibO :-/
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=user_nodes&user=229947
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=user_nodes&user=227507
RE: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
We didn't know to contact JB or Sophie.
We can contact them.
Thank you.
-----Original Message-----
From: FR web forum [mailto:OOo@athena.apache.org]
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 14:36
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Bonjour Fred ;-)
>I guess that the answer is somewhere in Oracle... but not even sure.
Maybe ask to the ex french community members.
Did you contact JB Faure or Sophie Gautier about that?
Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Posted by Raphael Bircher <r....@gmx.ch>.
Am 03.09.11 23:36, schrieb FR web forum:
> Bonjour Fred ;-)
>
>> I guess that the answer is somewhere in Oracle... but not even sure.
> Maybe ask to the ex french community members.
> Did you contact JB Faure or Sophie Gautier about that?
>
fr.openoffice.org tells: owned by kenaiadmin. This is because you have
no project Lead, or no one get the Rouls. Kenaiadmin was same month ago
Stefan Taxhed, but I'm not sure if he has still this roul. Else the
right contact will be Andrew Rist from Oracle.
--
My private Homepage: http://www.raphaelbircher.ch/
Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Posted by FR web forum <OO...@athena.apache.org>.
Bonjour Fred ;-)
>I guess that the answer is somewhere in Oracle... but not even sure.
Maybe ask to the ex french community members.
Did you contact JB Faure or Sophie Gautier about that?