Sorry men

[FEITO Nazareno <fe...@obsequie.com.ar>]

Sorry I´m just trying to make your life more easy...
Oh, almost forget it... ASP is a loose of time on developer time... and the
module is to heavy, sorry but betwen oracle and ASP our server is down in
performance, we run unix on a SGI and with 256mb ram...
If you are trying to put ASP cause you don´t want to break the designer
work, you are loosing your time (that was the intention here, but it doesn´t
work), the design is all broke.
Is more estructured and I vote for put HTML into Perl and not Perl into HTML
or the same with ASP.

Sorry again men... bye

Nazareno
Perl Programmer www.obsequie.com

Re: Apache::ASP rules [was: Sorry men]

[Joshua Chamas <jo...@chamas.com>]

Ime Smits wrote:
> 
> | Oh, almost forget it... ASP is a loose of time on developer time... and
> the
> | module is to heavy, sorry but betwen oracle and ASP our server is down in
> | performance, we run unix on a SGI and with 256mb ram...
> | If you are trying to put ASP cause you don´t want to break the designer
> | work, you are loosing your time (that was the intention here, but it
> doesn´t
> | work), the design is all broke.
> | Is more estructured and I vote for put HTML into Perl and not Perl into
> HTML
> | or the same with ASP.
> 
> I think you have a point if you're writing stuff which is going to get a
> million or so pageviews a day. In that case, you'll probably have a pretty
> good insight in how things are going to be in advance and you can spent some
> valuable time into thinking out every aspect of your application before you
> actually start coding.
> 

A million page views a day will be nothing to an Apache::ASP modperl 
application that is properly tuned for both the modperl & Oracle components.
This is especially true if you are running Linux, which is a very fast OS.
Check out:

  http://www.nodeworks.com/asp/tuning.html
  http://www.perlmonth.com/features/apacheasp/apacheasp.html?issue=7

Note that for extreme memory savings, see the two server setup
in the modperl guide, my favorite is the proxy in front using ProxyPass.

Oh, & Ime, you rock.

-- Joshua

Re: Apache::ASP rules [was: Sorry men]

[Tom Peer <to...@virgin.net>]

Horror stories?

On a live site when a static page is being accessed NT can lock the page
and not unlock it even when you've stopped the internet service - handy
when you've got someone shouting at you to change a mistake.

If you change the default (eg index.htm) page in a directory to a dynamic
one eg index.asp, IIS will show an older cached version of the page if you
view the page using just the directory name in the URL and th new version
if you call it explicitly.

Oh - and try looking for the error log on IIS.

Also take a look at the IIS version of W3C logs - they're full of corrupt
chunks of HTML (?? - this makes them near impossible to process with PERL
on NT - I had a site once where we zipped up the logs and sent them to a
Linux machine for processing)

Much touted as an advantage of IIS is the Site Server add-on. This is even
worse than IIS.

Index Server is the worst piece of software I have ever worked with. If you
search for two words and have a document that contains 14 occurences of one
word and 1 of another it will rank higher than one with 7 of each. If you
try to catalogue a collection with over about 20,000 pages it can't push
the collection to other servers so you have to set up indexing on all your
servers which is something Microsoft tell you not to do because Indexing
brings your server to a halt.

The LDAP service is a joke. It stops and starts for a hobby and relies on
you first setting NT group permissions on all the folders you want to apply
it to (??). Try ringing MS for LDAP support and you will get to speak to a
lot of very confused people. The last time I tried I waited a week and then
got back a list of people offering IIS training in my area.

And have you ever tried sending mail from an NT server? I tried to use the
Membership stuff to send a weekly newsletter from a $40,000 Compaq server
and worked out it was going to run into next week's letter. Roll on Linux
running on an old Pentium II.

And have you ever tried dialling in remotely?

And my favourite - MS make a great dea about how much of the Linux stuff is
freeware or open source. If you get a runaway process on NT and you can't
kill it - ring up MS Support and they'll recommend installing a shareware
utility called kill. Sure I use shareware to do lots of stuff - but to kill
a process on a mission critical server??

Still it's not all bad...I like the Unix compatibility pack and the GUI
gets more like the Mac every release.

I feel better now.

Tom
 :(

Francesc Guasch wrote:

> Ime Smits wrote:
> >
> > Bottomline: Apache::ASP made me really happy because now don't have to
> > develop for IIS anymore and I can stick to my Linux environment. I can
>
> I'm also being told every once in a while by management
> about why we aren't using IIS, you know, when they receive
> marketing information.
>
> I have a list of lack of features in mind but I'll like
> to hear horror stories and so from somone who really used it.
>
> --
>  - frankie -

Re: Apache::ASP rules [was: Sorry men]

[Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, Francesc Guasch wrote:

> Ime Smits wrote:
> > 
> > Bottomline: Apache::ASP made me really happy because now don't have to
> > develop for IIS anymore and I can stick to my Linux environment. I can
> 
> I'm also being told every once in a while by management
> about why we aren't using IIS, you know, when they receive
> marketing information.
> 
> I have a list of lack of features in mind but I'll like
> to hear horror stories and so from somone who really used it.

My boss has lots of lovely (NOT!) things to say about it. But then he is
biased - he's the product manager for O'Reilly's WebSite.

IIS does lots wrong, but it's not terrible. The API is a bit pants, and
while it's very quick at static files, it cheats. See
http://www.wgg.com/rants/benchmark.html for some details on that. It's
also a bloated pig - and you thought Apache+mod_perl used up lots of RAM,
wait till you get IIS+MTS+Index Server running....

-- 
<Matt/>

Fastnet Software Ltd. High Performance Web Specialists
Providing mod_perl, XML, Sybase and Oracle solutions
Email for training and consultancy availability.
http://sergeant.org http://xml.sergeant.org

Re: Apache::ASP rules [was: Sorry men]

[Francesc Guasch <fr...@etsetb.upc.es>]

Ime Smits wrote:
> 
> Bottomline: Apache::ASP made me really happy because now don't have to
> develop for IIS anymore and I can stick to my Linux environment. I can

I'm also being told every once in a while by management
about why we aren't using IIS, you know, when they receive
marketing information.

I have a list of lack of features in mind but I'll like
to hear horror stories and so from somone who really used it.


-- 
 - frankie -

Apache::ASP rules [was: Sorry men]

[Ime Smits <im...@iae.nl>]

| Oh, almost forget it... ASP is a loose of time on developer time... and
the
| module is to heavy, sorry but betwen oracle and ASP our server is down in
| performance, we run unix on a SGI and with 256mb ram...
| If you are trying to put ASP cause you don´t want to break the designer
| work, you are loosing your time (that was the intention here, but it
doesn´t
| work), the design is all broke.
| Is more estructured and I vote for put HTML into Perl and not Perl into
HTML
| or the same with ASP.

I think you have a point if you're writing stuff which is going to get a
million or so pageviews a day. In that case, you'll probably have a pretty
good insight in how things are going to be in advance and you can spent some
valuable time into thinking out every aspect of your application before you
actually start coding.

I think the big bonus of Apache::ASP (or one of the other embedded perl
implemententations) is that one can start working on a project with a very
ugly looking functional implementation of what you want and later add (or
let other people add) layout to it with their very nice HTML design tools
out there, like DreamWeaver and other kick-ass Macromedia products even I
like to work with. With Apache::ASP, I can work together with people who
have great skills in using visual HTML editors but think they see line-noise
when they actually see perl - as long as they leave the asp tags alone.
Before this, we had to develop the complete design of a website and then in
the end wrap the HTML in perl scripts. In case of any change in design or
restyle, everything had to be done all over and there I was cut/copy/pasting
everything all over.

In my opinion, using Apache::ASP instead of doing old fashioned scripts,
greatly reduces the time taken to complete a project, especially in those
cases where you have to work on something with a lot of people and you don't
know exactly what the finished project is going to be like until it's
actually finished. This indeed has some drawbacks in performance. But hey,
processor time is getting cheaper each day. If you're really aiming for
speed and performance, there's always the option of rewriting and optimizing
when your product is finished using non-embedded perl, C or, if you're a
real die hard, even ASM. I would prefer buying another Pentium box, though.
Except for some very busy sites, you'll probably don't care about a few
extra milliseconds. Selects on databases which have grown out of proportion
or have a bad structure were a far bigger slowdown than the use of
Apache::ASP in most things I've seen so far.

Now for the non rational part, consider this: just because Apache::ASP was
out there I was able to convince some of the most nasty M$ IIS-addicted
people I work with that Apache+Perl is a very good alternative for IIS. It
isn't that much of a change if people won't have to change their way of
thinking and can continue using their existing skills and tools to develop a
website. For most website developers switching from VBScript ASP to
PerlScript ASP is just a matter of learning some basic rules and grammar.

Consider this - rather unethical - issue too: The main problem I had with
people who are more into marketing then into technical stuff (say: managers)
is that every time I tried to convince them in using someting non-M$ for a
new project, I would have a terrible hard time. Thanks to Apache::ASP, I can
make them dream on while they see *.asp floating around all over the place,
but don't know what's really going on. Until the complete product has
proofed to work - and then suddenly they don't care anymore if they find out
there is no M$ box at the other end of the wire ;P

Bottomline: Apache::ASP made me really happy because now don't have to
develop for IIS anymore and I can stick to my Linux environment. I can
concentrate on real scripting and let other people without any scripting
knowledge focus on creating the HTML and layout.

Ime