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Posted to community@apache.org by Glenn Nielsen <gl...@apache.org> on 2002/12/02 15:01:54 UTC
ASF Member/Committer AUP
I have been following the discussion about publicizing ASF Member/Committer
home pages. The contentious issue seems to be what is appropriate use of
a home page hosted on apache, or even if there should be home pages at all.
A major concern of those against the proposal is that pages hosted at
apache.org will be seen as represensting the ASF. They are concerned
about protecting the Apache brand.
Throughout the discussion no one pointed to any ASF documentation on
what acceptable use is. With the ASF developer community growing to over
500 committers perhaps what is needed is an AUP which addresses appropriate
use of their email account, home page, and commit privs. Nothing draconian,
but something that can set expectations of what is acceptable use and give
the ASF Board/PMC a foundation for making decisions when someone crosses
the line.
Regards,
Glenn
RE: ASF Member/Committer AUP
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Andrew,
I spoke with Dion last night and he was unaware of your page or request.
[Is this list archived yet? Nothing on eyebrowse]
> reorg is closed down. Community doesn't seem to appear here. But here
> is the http://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html meta mail
> lists AFAIK.
Isn't there an infrastructure@ list, too?
> This document that I'm writing is more of a technical guide for those
> special "ide developers" --
> Its not intended as the all encompasing "apache guide"
Yes, I know. I think that your page should linked with /dev when ready,
although parts of it might be refactored since it is appropriate to others,
too.
> however I think you're right.. some "meta" information should probably
> be linked.
Right. And we're talking about guidelines, best practices and factual
information about what does exist, not about The One True Way. As I said, I
just want one place to go as a starting point for all of the information
that a Committer would want to participate.
> > Having one central starting point to collate all of the
> > myriad bits of information for Committers is what I was
> > getting at.
> Patches my friend, patches. Do you have access to jakarta-site?
Nope. And not to the general site where /dev lives, either.
> Send a couple patches to general@ and I'm sure it will happen very
> quickly.
Good to know. :-) I had sent the CVS/ssh info to Brian, who had forwarded
it on to whomever affected the change.
--- Noel
Re: ASF Member/Committer AUP
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>Ask Dion Gillard specifically. He's doing a lot on documenting Maven.
>
>
I think he was of the opinion that this documentation belonged on
Maven's site. I said I'd link to
whatever page he suggested. I got no reply. (I'm mostly sure it was him)
>>No they are linked quite clearly from the page that says "mailing lists"
>>
>>
>
>Really? Where is the reorg mailing list, for example? :-) I was refering
>to the fact that some are missing from the lists, not that all of them are.
>And the non-project specific ones that are ASF related were what I had in
>mind for your document.
>
>
reorg is closed down. Community doesn't seem to appear here. But here
is the
http://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html meta mail lists AFAIK.
This document that I'm writing is more of a technical guide for those
special "ide developers" --
In Java, these are people who don't know what a classpath is. In C++ it
would be
Visual C++ developers who live in the classwizards and have never
touched a makefile. I'm not
sure there is a C equivilent. My knowledge is outdated... What
replaced Quick C?
Its not intended as the all encompasing "apache guide" -- Several
attempts have been made at this,
and I've not quite got the patience for arguing out TheOneTrueWay, etc.
that such efforts generally
devolve into (sad comment on my character, but true).
however I think you're right.. some "meta" information should probably
be linked.
>
>
>>http://jakarta.apache.org/site/guidelines.html
>>
>>
>
>Been there, read that, own the t-shirt. ;-) That isn't linked with
>www.apache.org/dev, for example. Having one central starting point to
>collate all of the myriad bits of information for Committers is what I was
>getting at.
>
Patches my friend, patches. Do you have access to jakarta-site? Send a
couple patches to
general@ and I'm sure it will happen very quickly. (Heck if you just
ask it will probably happen).
I'm pretty sure Ted Husted was working on that...
note: this "ide developers' guide" is still in beta so its not clearly
linked.. (As soon as I'm sure it does
more good then harm...I'll spring it more visibly on the helpless ;-) )
-Andy
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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RE: ASF Member/Committer AUP
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > you might want to include Maven/Jelly in the section on
> > bulding, which currently has only Ant.
> I've invited Mavenites to contribute, I've not recieved anything.
Ask Dion Gillard specifically. He's doing a lot on documenting Maven.
>Other topics for your list: What is GUMP (just an example, I know what it
>is)?
>
>
Yes links to GUMP (http://jakarta.apache.org/gump) is a good idea.
Though I hear its not very good (J/K) ;-)
> > I've heard of some that don't appear to be linked from any page
> > that I've noticed (probably one for thie discussion, for example :-)).
> No they are linked quite clearly from the page that says "mailing lists"
Really? Where is the reorg mailing list, for example? :-) I was refering
to the fact that some are missing from the lists, not that all of them are.
And the non-project specific ones that are ASF related were what I had in
mind for your document.
> > In general, I'd want a document that explained the existing policies,
> > mechanisms, and best practices, including where to go for more detail.
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/guidelines.html
Been there, read that, own the t-shirt. ;-) That isn't linked with
www.apache.org/dev, for example. Having one central starting point to
collate all of the myriad bits of information for Committers is what I was
getting at.
--- Noel
Re: ASF Member/Committer AUP
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>I've been working on this for those "windows users":
>>http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idedevelopers.html
>>
>>
Thanks for the feedback!
>Looks good so far. The sections on Ant and CVS apply to non-Windows users,
>as well. And you might want to include Maven/Jelly in the section on
>bulding, which currently has only Ant.
>
>
I've invited Mavenites to contribute, I've not recieved anything. Since
I do not use Maven, I feel unqualified to
write that section. I'll probably add one on Centipede and wait for the
"enthusiastic" response that I'm sure will
follow when I mention it and not the other. Since most projects still
use Ant, I covered it first. In my opinion everyone
needs to learn ant before they move on to the ant-based-tools. (Those
help you later)...
>Other topics for your list: What is GUMP (just an example, I know what it
>is)?
>
>
Yes links to GUMP (http://jakarta.apache.org/gump) is a good idea.
Though I hear its not very good (J/K) ;-)
>The use of logged IRC channels for ASF projects (that appears to be
>done on some projects -- is it generally available?). What are each of the
>"internal" mailing lists, and what topics are they intended to host? I've
>heard of some that don't appear to be linked from any page that I've noticed
>(probably one for thie discussion, for example :-)).
>
>
No they are linked quite clearly from the page that says "mailing lists"
(http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html).
however one must read the guidelines to get to the "click here" (or just
have a keen eye ;-) )... Noting the location
in the text is probably a good thing to do. I'll do that.
>In general, I'd want a document that explained the existing policies,
>mechanisms, and best practices, including where to go for more detail.
>
>
That is for another page.. . Its pretty clear here:
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/guidelines.html
My goal is to explain what things are and how to use them Jon & others
have explained policy pretty well in my
opinion. However, I've been informed that all of my opinions are ill
informed... Including that one. ;-)
-Andy
> --- Noel
>
>
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RE: ASF Member/Committer AUP
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> I've been working on this for those "windows users":
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idedevelopers.html
Looks good so far. The sections on Ant and CVS apply to non-Windows users,
as well. And you might want to include Maven/Jelly in the section on
bulding, which currently has only Ant.
Other topics for your list: What is GUMP (just an example, I know what it
is)? The use of logged IRC channels for ASF projects (that appears to be
done on some projects -- is it generally available?). What are each of the
"internal" mailing lists, and what topics are they intended to host? I've
heard of some that don't appear to be linked from any page that I've noticed
(probably one for thie discussion, for example :-)).
In general, I'd want a document that explained the existing policies,
mechanisms, and best practices, including where to go for more detail.
--- Noel
Re: ASF Member/Committer AUP
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>
>I took a guess regarding .forward and public_html (but I wonder if Windows
>users would know about them), and played with CVS and ssh to get it all
>working with public keys. Sent e-mail to Brian detailing my experience,
>which appears to have been incorporated into the Committers FAQ by someone
>with a more clever hand at perl than I.
>
>
Alternatively I've been working on this for those "windows users":
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idedevelopers.html
Its java specific at the moment, but it doesn't *have* to be. The goal
is to educate the
"new breed" whom were weened on Windows Explorer, how to get things done.
Re: ASF Member/Committer AUP
Posted by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>.
> we're considered to be trusted until proven otherwise,
yeah
> ... AFAIK
> no-one has (yet) caused any major grief."
Oh plenty of grief, but broadcasting embarrassing examples of people's
mistakes isn't the style of the nice people running those servers. Of
course that no compute intensive rule didn't come out of thin air.
I, to confess, once left - for oh a year - a couple of complete copies
of the entire CVS repository as a side effect of a set of tools I built
to reconstruct and validate the repository from the CVS mail logs (we
got hacked). I ought to have deleted them, I just moved on. Silly me.
- ben
RE: ASF Member/Committer AUP
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> the incubator will need to be able to tell incubatees the apache resources
> at their disposal and the limits beyond which use of these resources
> becomes abuse.
> i'd like to this kind of information provided to all new committers and
> also be made available for existing committers.
When I got my account, one of the first things I did was ask the long time
Committers on the project about AUP. What came back was "AFAIK you can do
pretty much anything relevant with the acc on "icarus" (cvs server) I don't
know whether there are quotas or what. In particular its OK to read pretty
much anything, like /home/cvs/avail for instance. Best to avoid heavy
processing, just be considerate. The principle is that if we've been
elected we're considered to be trusted until proven otherwise, and AFAIK
no-one has (yet) caused any major grief."
I took a guess regarding .forward and public_html (but I wonder if Windows
users would know about them), and played with CVS and ssh to get it all
working with public keys. Sent e-mail to Brian detailing my experience,
which appears to have been incorporated into the Committers FAQ by someone
with a more clever hand at perl than I.
I think that getting guidelines to use shared systems is at least good
manners. And providing them just makes sense.
--- Noel
Re: ASF Member/Committer AUP
Posted by robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org>.
communities can only grow so fast and so large by using osmosis to
transfer ideas.
the incubator will need to be able to tell incubatees the apache resources
at their disposal and the limits beyond which use of these resources
becomes abuse.
i'd like to this kind of information provided to all new committers and
also be made available for existing committers.
for example, given the recent community anti-Beanie Babies hatefest, then
the incubatees need to be told that under no circumstances should they
post up web pages detailing their oh-so-interesting collections in their
apache home directories ;)
- robert
On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 02:30 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Personally I prefer late-refactoring. Has it been a problem yet?
>
> Glenn Nielsen wrote:
>
>> I have been following the discussion about publicizing ASF
>> Member/Committer
>> home pages. The contentious issue seems to be what is appropriate use of
>> a home page hosted on apache, or even if there should be home pages at
>> all.
>>
>> A major concern of those against the proposal is that pages hosted at
>> apache.org will be seen as represensting the ASF. They are concerned
>> about protecting the Apache brand.
>>
>> Throughout the discussion no one pointed to any ASF documentation on
>> what acceptable use is. With the ASF developer community growing to over
>> 500 committers perhaps what is needed is an AUP which addresses
>> appropriate
>> use of their email account, home page, and commit privs. Nothing
>> draconian,
>> but something that can set expectations of what is acceptable use and
>> give
>> the ASF Board/PMC a foundation for making decisions when someone crosses
>> the line.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Glenn
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
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Re: ASF Member/Committer AUP
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Personally I prefer late-refactoring. Has it been a problem yet?
Glenn Nielsen wrote:
>I have been following the discussion about publicizing ASF Member/Committer
>home pages. The contentious issue seems to be what is appropriate use of
>a home page hosted on apache, or even if there should be home pages at all.
>
>A major concern of those against the proposal is that pages hosted at
>apache.org will be seen as represensting the ASF. They are concerned
>about protecting the Apache brand.
>
>Throughout the discussion no one pointed to any ASF documentation on
>what acceptable use is. With the ASF developer community growing to over
>500 committers perhaps what is needed is an AUP which addresses appropriate
>use of their email account, home page, and commit privs. Nothing draconian,
>but something that can set expectations of what is acceptable use and give
>the ASF Board/PMC a foundation for making decisions when someone crosses
>the line.
>
>Regards,
>
>Glenn
>
>
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>For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
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>
>