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Posted to dev@tomcat.apache.org by Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org> on 2003/09/30 20:27:33 UTC
[5.0] Schedule change
Hi,
The signals I'm getting from Sun about the schedule of the
specifications is highly confusing. Since I'm tired of having Tomcat
depend on these, I propose taking advantage of the backwards
compatibility of the spec, and replacing the TC 5 statement phrase with:
The 5.x releases implement the Servlet 2.3 and JSP 1.2 specifications,
and will add support for the Servlet 2.4 and JSP 2.0 as soon as they are
officially available.
That would allow making a timely 5.0 release, rather than expecting
stuff for an indefinite amount of time ...
If I don't get yelled at too much, I'll call for a vote on this.
Comments ?
Remy
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Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Tim Funk <fu...@joedog.org>.
+1 It may be better to get an official release out sooner than later. In a
worst case where the spec is "changed" from what is expected, tomcat 5.2
could address that.
-Tim
Remy Maucherat wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The signals I'm getting from Sun about the schedule of the
> specifications is highly confusing. Since I'm tired of having Tomcat
> depend on these, I propose taking advantage of the backwards
> compatibility of the spec, and replacing the TC 5 statement phrase with:
>
> The 5.x releases implement the Servlet 2.3 and JSP 1.2 specifications,
> and will add support for the Servlet 2.4 and JSP 2.0 as soon as they are
> officially available.
>
> That would allow making a timely 5.0 release, rather than expecting
> stuff for an indefinite amount of time ...
>
> If I don't get yelled at too much, I'll call for a vote on this.
>
> Comments ?
Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Tim Funk <fu...@joedog.org>.
+1 It may be better to get an official release out sooner than later. In a
worst case where the spec is "changed" from what is expected, tomcat 5.2
could address that.
-Tim
Remy Maucherat wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The signals I'm getting from Sun about the schedule of the
> specifications is highly confusing. Since I'm tired of having Tomcat
> depend on these, I propose taking advantage of the backwards
> compatibility of the spec, and replacing the TC 5 statement phrase with:
>
> The 5.x releases implement the Servlet 2.3 and JSP 1.2 specifications,
> and will add support for the Servlet 2.4 and JSP 2.0 as soon as they are
> officially available.
>
> That would allow making a timely 5.0 release, rather than expecting
> stuff for an indefinite amount of time ...
>
> If I don't get yelled at too much, I'll call for a vote on this.
>
> Comments ?
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Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org>.
Glenn Nielsen wrote:
> How much work is it to revert Tomcat 5 back to Sevlet 2.3/JSP 1.2?
If you want to really remove the features, I think it's significant.
Remy
Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org>.
Glenn Nielsen wrote:
> How much work is it to revert Tomcat 5 back to Sevlet 2.3/JSP 1.2?
If you want to really remove the features, I think it's significant.
Remy
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Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Glenn Nielsen <gl...@mail.more.net>.
Remy Maucherat wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The signals I'm getting from Sun about the schedule of the
> specifications is highly confusing. Since I'm tired of having Tomcat
> depend on these, I propose taking advantage of the backwards
> compatibility of the spec, and replacing the TC 5 statement phrase with:
>
> The 5.x releases implement the Servlet 2.3 and JSP 1.2 specifications,
> and will add support for the Servlet 2.4 and JSP 2.0 as soon as they are
> officially available.
>
> That would allow making a timely 5.0 release, rather than expecting
> stuff for an indefinite amount of time ...
>
> If I don't get yelled at too much, I'll call for a vote on this.
>
> Comments ?
>
How much work is it to revert Tomcat 5 back to Sevlet 2.3/JSP 1.2?
And I agree with Costin that we should keep the major revision tied
to the versions of the Servlet/JSP spec.
Glenn
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Nielsen glenn@more.net | /* Spelin donut madder |
MOREnet System Programming | * if iz ina coment. |
Missouri Research and Education Network | */ |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org>.
Bill Barker wrote:
>>Bill Barker wrote:
> Great. You give just about the only person on the project that's not in the
> PMC the job ;-). I'll do my best.
Come on, don't let small details stop you (and it's easy to do a vote on
the PMC list anyway) ;-)
BTW, small glitch: can you actually get the test suite before the spec
is released ?
Remy
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Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Bill Barker <wb...@wilshire.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Remy Maucherat" <re...@apache.org>
To: "Tomcat Developers List" <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: [5.0] Schedule change
> Bill Barker wrote:
> > By the way, is there any plan to certify Tomcat 5? As everyone knows,
Sun
> > controls the RI now. While it's rumored to be based on Tomcat code,
that's
> > not the same thing. Also, as everyone knows, Geronimo is planning to
test
> > the Sun/Apache agreement by getting the test-suite under the Sun/Apache
> > agreement to certify them as a JSEE container once they've gotten up and
> > running.
> >
> > I really think that Tomcat should request the test-suite for Servlet
2.4/JSP
> > 2.0. At the very least, it might give Remy something to do while
waiting
> > for the specs to go final ;-).
>
> It sounds like a good idea.
> Thanks for volunteering ! :-D
>
Great. You give just about the only person on the project that's not in the
PMC the job ;-). I'll do my best.
> Remy
>
>
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>
>
Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org>.
Bill Barker wrote:
> By the way, is there any plan to certify Tomcat 5? As everyone knows, Sun
> controls the RI now. While it's rumored to be based on Tomcat code, that's
> not the same thing. Also, as everyone knows, Geronimo is planning to test
> the Sun/Apache agreement by getting the test-suite under the Sun/Apache
> agreement to certify them as a JSEE container once they've gotten up and
> running.
>
> I really think that Tomcat should request the test-suite for Servlet 2.4/JSP
> 2.0. At the very least, it might give Remy something to do while waiting
> for the specs to go final ;-).
It sounds like a good idea.
Thanks for volunteering ! :-D
Remy
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Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Jean-Francois Arcand <jf...@apache.org>.
Bill Barker wrote:
>By the way, is there any plan to certify Tomcat 5? As everyone knows, Sun
>controls the RI now. While it's rumored to be based on Tomcat code, that's
>not the same thing. Also, as everyone knows, Geronimo is planning to test
>the Sun/Apache agreement by getting the test-suite under the Sun/Apache
>agreement to certify them as a JSEE container once they've gotten up and
>running.
>
>I really think that Tomcat should request the test-suite for Servlet 2.4/JSP
>2.0. At the very least, it might give Remy something to do while waiting
>for the specs to go final ;-).
>
BTW, we are running the TCKs (JSP/Servlet/JSTL) on Tomcat nightly build
every day. Currently all tcks are passing...
We can certainly help getting/setting the tcks if required. The Axis
team is currently running the tcks by their own right now.
-- Jeanfrancois
>
>"Remy Maucherat" <re...@apache.org> wrote in message
>news:3F79CB15.5060401@apache.org...
>
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>The signals I'm getting from Sun about the schedule of the
>>specifications is highly confusing. Since I'm tired of having Tomcat
>>depend on these, I propose taking advantage of the backwards
>>compatibility of the spec, and replacing the TC 5 statement phrase with:
>>
>>The 5.x releases implement the Servlet 2.3 and JSP 1.2 specifications,
>>and will add support for the Servlet 2.4 and JSP 2.0 as soon as they are
>>officially available.
>>
>>That would allow making a timely 5.0 release, rather than expecting
>>stuff for an indefinite amount of time ...
>>
>>If I don't get yelled at too much, I'll call for a vote on this.
>>
>>Comments ?
>>
>>Remy
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
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Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Bill Barker <wb...@wilshire.com>.
By the way, is there any plan to certify Tomcat 5? As everyone knows, Sun
controls the RI now. While it's rumored to be based on Tomcat code, that's
not the same thing. Also, as everyone knows, Geronimo is planning to test
the Sun/Apache agreement by getting the test-suite under the Sun/Apache
agreement to certify them as a JSEE container once they've gotten up and
running.
I really think that Tomcat should request the test-suite for Servlet 2.4/JSP
2.0. At the very least, it might give Remy something to do while waiting
for the specs to go final ;-).
"Remy Maucherat" <re...@apache.org> wrote in message
news:3F79CB15.5060401@apache.org...
> Hi,
>
> The signals I'm getting from Sun about the schedule of the
> specifications is highly confusing. Since I'm tired of having Tomcat
> depend on these, I propose taking advantage of the backwards
> compatibility of the spec, and replacing the TC 5 statement phrase with:
>
> The 5.x releases implement the Servlet 2.3 and JSP 1.2 specifications,
> and will add support for the Servlet 2.4 and JSP 2.0 as soon as they are
> officially available.
>
> That would allow making a timely 5.0 release, rather than expecting
> stuff for an indefinite amount of time ...
>
> If I don't get yelled at too much, I'll call for a vote on this.
>
> Comments ?
>
> Remy
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Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Glenn Nielsen <gl...@mail.more.net>.
Remy Maucherat wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The signals I'm getting from Sun about the schedule of the
> specifications is highly confusing. Since I'm tired of having Tomcat
> depend on these, I propose taking advantage of the backwards
> compatibility of the spec, and replacing the TC 5 statement phrase with:
>
> The 5.x releases implement the Servlet 2.3 and JSP 1.2 specifications,
> and will add support for the Servlet 2.4 and JSP 2.0 as soon as they are
> officially available.
>
> That would allow making a timely 5.0 release, rather than expecting
> stuff for an indefinite amount of time ...
>
> If I don't get yelled at too much, I'll call for a vote on this.
>
> Comments ?
>
How much work is it to revert Tomcat 5 back to Sevlet 2.3/JSP 1.2?
And I agree with Costin that we should keep the major revision tied
to the versions of the Servlet/JSP spec.
Glenn
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Nielsen glenn@more.net | /* Spelin donut madder |
MOREnet System Programming | * if iz ina coment. |
Missouri Research and Education Network | */ |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Costin Manolache <cm...@yahoo.com>.
Remy Maucherat wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The signals I'm getting from Sun about the schedule of the
> specifications is highly confusing. Since I'm tired of having Tomcat
> depend on these, I propose taking advantage of the backwards
> compatibility of the spec, and replacing the TC 5 statement phrase with:
>
> The 5.x releases implement the Servlet 2.3 and JSP 1.2 specifications,
> and will add support for the Servlet 2.4 and JSP 2.0 as soon as they are
> officially available.
>
> That would allow making a timely 5.0 release, rather than expecting
> stuff for an indefinite amount of time ...
>
> If I don't get yelled at too much, I'll call for a vote on this.
>
> Comments ?
What about releasing it as tomcat4.2 ( since many people assume 4.x is the
implementation series for servlet 2.3 ) ?
Costin
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Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org>.
Hans Bergsten wrote:
> Remy Maucherat wrote:
>> If the first option is chosen, I will go work on other stuff (at
>> JBoss) while the project stays idle (chômage technique, as we say in
>> French).
>> As you all know: no stable release = no testers = no bugs = nothing to
>> fix :-(
>
> I'm pretty sure that if you release a TC 5 Beta, you will get quite a
> few people to test it, and unless it's already perfect, they will find
> bugs.
Hehe, we've been in beta for some time. The amount of bugs reported
hasn't been staggering (similar to when we were in alpha, I think).
Anyway, I think it was the same for TC 4.0: the testing while in beta
was an order of magnitude lower. Esp since there's a release which is
perceived as "good enough" out there (4.1).
> I don't know more than you do about when J2EE 1.4 will be released, but
> the specs are starting to move through final approval now, so I'm pretty
> sure it will happen in a month or two. Three months for running a few
> Beta releases instead of releasing it as something it's not doesn't seem
> to bad to me ...
More than a month in beta already. I think the beta time depends on the
situation. We have less new code than in TC 4.0 or 4.1, that's for sure.
I think it can be compared to TC 3.2 -> TC 3.3 maybe.
>> I don't have any time to dedicate to either of the other two options,
>> as I have neither motivation nor need for such a product. Sorry :-(
>
> Sure, I understand how you feel and no one can force you to work on it,
> of course, but I hope you do even if it's just Beta for another few
> months.
Well, here's what I do in the "waiting" scenario:
- tags once in a while (probably once per month on average)
- commit reviews
- occasional bugfix as issues come in
Anyway, I'll be carefully considering all my options.
Remy
Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org>.
Hans Bergsten wrote:
> Remy Maucherat wrote:
>> If the first option is chosen, I will go work on other stuff (at
>> JBoss) while the project stays idle (chômage technique, as we say in
>> French).
>> As you all know: no stable release = no testers = no bugs = nothing to
>> fix :-(
>
> I'm pretty sure that if you release a TC 5 Beta, you will get quite a
> few people to test it, and unless it's already perfect, they will find
> bugs.
Hehe, we've been in beta for some time. The amount of bugs reported
hasn't been staggering (similar to when we were in alpha, I think).
Anyway, I think it was the same for TC 4.0: the testing while in beta
was an order of magnitude lower. Esp since there's a release which is
perceived as "good enough" out there (4.1).
> I don't know more than you do about when J2EE 1.4 will be released, but
> the specs are starting to move through final approval now, so I'm pretty
> sure it will happen in a month or two. Three months for running a few
> Beta releases instead of releasing it as something it's not doesn't seem
> to bad to me ...
More than a month in beta already. I think the beta time depends on the
situation. We have less new code than in TC 4.0 or 4.1, that's for sure.
I think it can be compared to TC 3.2 -> TC 3.3 maybe.
>> I don't have any time to dedicate to either of the other two options,
>> as I have neither motivation nor need for such a product. Sorry :-(
>
> Sure, I understand how you feel and no one can force you to work on it,
> of course, but I hope you do even if it's just Beta for another few
> months.
Well, here's what I do in the "waiting" scenario:
- tags once in a while (probably once per month on average)
- commit reviews
- occasional bugfix as issues come in
Anyway, I'll be carefully considering all my options.
Remy
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Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Jan Luehe <Ja...@Sun.COM>.
Hans/Remy,
> I don't know more than you do about when J2EE 1.4 will be released, but
> the specs are starting to move through final approval now, so I'm pretty
> sure it will happen in a month or two. Three months for running a few
> Beta releases instead of releasing it as something it's not doesn't seem
> to bad to me ...
Sun expects to ship J2EE 1.4 FCS sometime around the last week of November.
Hope this helps.
Jan
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Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Hans Bergsten <ha...@gefionsoftware.com>.
Remy Maucherat wrote:
> Bill Barker wrote:
> [...]
>> people want most from Tomcat 5 is a Servlet 2.4/JSP 2.0 container.
>
>
> There are only bad solutions here:
> - wait for an unspecified, and possibly long, amount of time, sitting on
> a finished product
> - backport patches (we probably don't have the resources, and
> destabilizing 4.1 would be bad; we'd have to use a new 4.2 branch)
> - branch a new 4.2 based on the current 5.0, and remove features (IMO it
> doesn't make any sense, plus that would destabilize the codebase - a bit
> less than the previous option, however -, and run into a similar
> resources issues)
>
> If the first option is chosen, I will go work on other stuff (at JBoss)
> while the project stays idle (chômage technique, as we say in French).
> As you all know: no stable release = no testers = no bugs = nothing to
> fix :-(
I'm pretty sure that if you release a TC 5 Beta, you will get quite a
few people to test it, and unless it's already perfect, they will find
bugs.
I don't know more than you do about when J2EE 1.4 will be released, but
the specs are starting to move through final approval now, so I'm pretty
sure it will happen in a month or two. Three months for running a few
Beta releases instead of releasing it as something it's not doesn't seem
to bad to me ...
> I don't have any time to dedicate to either of the other two options, as
> I have neither motivation nor need for such a product. Sorry :-(
Sure, I understand how you feel and no one can force you to work on it,
of course, but I hope you do even if it's just Beta for another few
months.
> So I think we're stuck :-(
I hope not.
Hans
--
Hans Bergsten <ha...@gefionsoftware.com>
Gefion Software <http://www.gefionsoftware.com/>
Author of O'Reilly's "JavaServer Pages", covering JSP 1.2 and JSTL 1.0
Details at <http://TheJSPBook.com/>
Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Hans Bergsten <ha...@gefionsoftware.com>.
Remy Maucherat wrote:
> Bill Barker wrote:
> [...]
>> people want most from Tomcat 5 is a Servlet 2.4/JSP 2.0 container.
>
>
> There are only bad solutions here:
> - wait for an unspecified, and possibly long, amount of time, sitting on
> a finished product
> - backport patches (we probably don't have the resources, and
> destabilizing 4.1 would be bad; we'd have to use a new 4.2 branch)
> - branch a new 4.2 based on the current 5.0, and remove features (IMO it
> doesn't make any sense, plus that would destabilize the codebase - a bit
> less than the previous option, however -, and run into a similar
> resources issues)
>
> If the first option is chosen, I will go work on other stuff (at JBoss)
> while the project stays idle (chômage technique, as we say in French).
> As you all know: no stable release = no testers = no bugs = nothing to
> fix :-(
I'm pretty sure that if you release a TC 5 Beta, you will get quite a
few people to test it, and unless it's already perfect, they will find
bugs.
I don't know more than you do about when J2EE 1.4 will be released, but
the specs are starting to move through final approval now, so I'm pretty
sure it will happen in a month or two. Three months for running a few
Beta releases instead of releasing it as something it's not doesn't seem
to bad to me ...
> I don't have any time to dedicate to either of the other two options, as
> I have neither motivation nor need for such a product. Sorry :-(
Sure, I understand how you feel and no one can force you to work on it,
of course, but I hope you do even if it's just Beta for another few
months.
> So I think we're stuck :-(
I hope not.
Hans
--
Hans Bergsten <ha...@gefionsoftware.com>
Gefion Software <http://www.gefionsoftware.com/>
Author of O'Reilly's "JavaServer Pages", covering JSP 1.2 and JSTL 1.0
Details at <http://TheJSPBook.com/>
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Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org>.
Bill Barker wrote:
> You can be a Servlet 2.3 container, or you can be a Servlet 2.4 container,
> but not both (see for example, BZ #23525). I agree with Yoav that what
Well, Sun is claiming full compatibility, so I'm assuming it's fully
compatible :)
> people want most from Tomcat 5 is a Servlet 2.4/JSP 2.0 container.
There are only bad solutions here:
- wait for an unspecified, and possibly long, amount of time, sitting on
a finished product
- backport patches (we probably don't have the resources, and
destabilizing 4.1 would be bad; we'd have to use a new 4.2 branch)
- branch a new 4.2 based on the current 5.0, and remove features (IMO it
doesn't make any sense, plus that would destabilize the codebase - a bit
less than the previous option, however -, and run into a similar
resources issues)
If the first option is chosen, I will go work on other stuff (at JBoss)
while the project stays idle (chômage technique, as we say in French).
As you all know: no stable release = no testers = no bugs = nothing to
fix :-(
I don't have any time to dedicate to either of the other two options, as
I have neither motivation nor need for such a product. Sorry :-(
So I think we're stuck :-(
Remy
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Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org>.
Bill Barker wrote:
> You can be a Servlet 2.3 container, or you can be a Servlet 2.4 container,
> but not both (see for example, BZ #23525). I agree with Yoav that what
Well, Sun is claiming full compatibility, so I'm assuming it's fully
compatible :)
> people want most from Tomcat 5 is a Servlet 2.4/JSP 2.0 container.
There are only bad solutions here:
- wait for an unspecified, and possibly long, amount of time, sitting on
a finished product
- backport patches (we probably don't have the resources, and
destabilizing 4.1 would be bad; we'd have to use a new 4.2 branch)
- branch a new 4.2 based on the current 5.0, and remove features (IMO it
doesn't make any sense, plus that would destabilize the codebase - a bit
less than the previous option, however -, and run into a similar
resources issues)
If the first option is chosen, I will go work on other stuff (at JBoss)
while the project stays idle (chômage technique, as we say in French).
As you all know: no stable release = no testers = no bugs = nothing to
fix :-(
I don't have any time to dedicate to either of the other two options, as
I have neither motivation nor need for such a product. Sorry :-(
So I think we're stuck :-(
Remy
Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Bill Barker <wb...@wilshire.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Remy Maucherat" <re...@apache.org>
To: "Tomcat Developers List" <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:27 AM
Subject: [5.0] Schedule change
> Hi,
>
> The signals I'm getting from Sun about the schedule of the
> specifications is highly confusing. Since I'm tired of having Tomcat
> depend on these, I propose taking advantage of the backwards
> compatibility of the spec, and replacing the TC 5 statement phrase with:
>
> The 5.x releases implement the Servlet 2.3 and JSP 1.2 specifications,
> and will add support for the Servlet 2.4 and JSP 2.0 as soon as they are
> officially available.
>
> That would allow making a timely 5.0 release, rather than expecting
> stuff for an indefinite amount of time ...
>
> If I don't get yelled at too much, I'll call for a vote on this.
>
> Comments ?
You can be a Servlet 2.3 container, or you can be a Servlet 2.4 container,
but not both (see for example, BZ #23525). I agree with Yoav that what
people want most from Tomcat 5 is a Servlet 2.4/JSP 2.0 container.
>
> Remy
>
>
>
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>
Re: [5.0] Schedule change
Posted by Costin Manolache <cm...@yahoo.com>.
Remy Maucherat wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The signals I'm getting from Sun about the schedule of the
> specifications is highly confusing. Since I'm tired of having Tomcat
> depend on these, I propose taking advantage of the backwards
> compatibility of the spec, and replacing the TC 5 statement phrase with:
>
> The 5.x releases implement the Servlet 2.3 and JSP 1.2 specifications,
> and will add support for the Servlet 2.4 and JSP 2.0 as soon as they are
> officially available.
>
> That would allow making a timely 5.0 release, rather than expecting
> stuff for an indefinite amount of time ...
>
> If I don't get yelled at too much, I'll call for a vote on this.
>
> Comments ?
What about releasing it as tomcat4.2 ( since many people assume 4.x is the
implementation series for servlet 2.3 ) ?
Costin