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Posted to user@velocity.apache.org by Nick Bauman <ni...@cortexity.com> on 2002/02/16 22:38:36 UTC
[OT] Re: Article ... JSP: The Emporer Has No Clothes
I'd like to once again underscore the impedence-mismatch of a strongly-
typed language like Java bumping into the loosely typed world of the Web
via JSP.
Velocity addresses this issue directly with its introspective capability,
being a loosely-typed language where Turing-completeness is considered a
bad thing.
Also, Jon Stevens' article (I think it's called YMTD, as in "You Make The
Decision") talks about systems-programming artifacts that appear in every
JSP page. (The page directive sets up output _cacheing_ for heavens sake!
That's just plain wrong, like seeing someone in their underwear in the
workplace!)
JSP: The Emporer Has No Clothes.
> On 2/14/02 1:35 PM, "Xuan Han" <xh...@inktomi.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree on all the good things about velocity. We should not let the
>> article prevent more people to accept velocity. We should have
>> someone write an article on the same website praising velocity :-)
>>
>
> Well, I guess what I think is warranted is an article responding to the
> things that I think are FUD, and assuming I can find a moment, will try
> to do that.
>
> The positive thing about this is that JSP alternatives such as
> Velocity, Cocoon, WebMacro, FreeMarker, etc are gaining enough
> credibility that proponents of JSP are starting to address those
> alternatives head-on.
>
> The best part is that as Java developers, we have a choice.
>
> Just if Sun would recognize the value of that...
>
> geir
>
>>
>> Xuan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Guillaume Mathe [mailto:gmathe@smartinnov.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 10:06 AM
>> To: velocity-user@jakarta.apache.org
>> Subject: Re:Article that mentions Velocity
>>
>>
>> That article is not fair about VTL. To speed up development on our
>> current project we put a new programmer dedicated 100% to presentation
>> (ie Velocity and CSS).
>> Time for him to learn CSS: 3 days
>> Time to master CSS: maybe 3 weeks, he's still learning
>> Time to learn VTL: 15mn
>> Time to master VTL: 4 days (thats when he totally rewrote my
>> VM_global_library)
>> So what ? VTL aint so difficult compared to the intricacies of XHTML
>> and CSS... The overhead of learning VTL was negligible, instead the
>> guy is now enthusiastic about it !!
>>
>> Now about 'standard' or 'ad hoc'.
>> I think we cannot compare JSP to Velocity. He says in the article 'JSP
>> is not a tool, its a platform' and i agree.
>> Velocity is a tool, so why compare ?
>> What *good* tools do we find about JSP ? Who makes them, with which
>> support level, etc...? How do those tools compare with Velocity ?
>> Before the beginning of out current project we reviewed a few
>> frameworks. As a tool Velocity wins hands down, for its task. And
>> Turbine was quite interesting (given the heavy weight
>> of our project) - it employs Velocity.
>> I think many JSP tools qualify as 'ad hoc'...
>>
>> It was a biased article in my opinion as he's working on GNUJSP.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Guillaume Mathe
>>
>> Original message from: "Geir Magnusson Jr."
>>> This was brought to my attention by Brian...
>>>
>>> http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-jsptags.html?
dwzone=ja
>> v
>>> a
>>>
>>> The interesting thing I found was that in the premise and motivation
>>> for
>> the
>>> article, the complaint about Velocity is that it's an "ad hoc"
>>> solution to the view problem, and JSP is superior because it's
>>> standard.
>>>
>>> Ok, lets pretend we agree.
>>>
>>> The article then goes on to define a set of custom tag libraries.
>>>
>>> How isn't that ad hoc?
>>>
>>> Two definitions of 'ad hoc' are
>>>
>>> 1. Formed for or concerned with one specific purpose
>>> 2. Improvised and often impromptu
>>>
>>> Don't both of those apply to a custom taglib? If the argument is
>>> that the custom taglib can be resused, and therefore isn't ad hoc...
>>> Isn't VTL reused?
>>>
>>> I'm pretty confused - I am pretty bushed right now, so I will re-read
>>> tomorrow....
>>>
>>> geir
>>>
>>> --
>>> Geir Magnusson Jr.
>>> geirm@optonline.net System and Software Consulting
>>> Java : the speed of Smalltalk with the simple elegance of C++...
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
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>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr.
> geirm@optonline.net System and Software Consulting
> The question is : What is a Mahnamahna?
>
>
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--
Nick Bauman
"It Is The Fate Of All Operating
Systems To Become Free" -- Neal Stephenson
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[OT] Re: Article ... JSP: The Emporer Has No Clothes
Posted by Brad Cox <bc...@virtualschool.edu>.
At 3:38 PM -0600 2/16/02, Nick Bauman wrote:
>I'd like to once again underscore the impedence-mismatch of a strongly-
>typed language like Java bumping into the loosely typed world of the Web
>via JSP.
I think of this in terms of the tradeoff between flexibility and
stiffness. JSP was infinitely flexible, but getting work done was
just like pushing a rope.
The project I was concentrating on then was an all-programmer
environment that needed stiffness, the ability to spot problems at
compile time, not run time. So I converted from JSP to the entirely
compile-time approach documented at http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa. I
still find the compile-time approach more productive for code-heavy,
html-light applications.
My latest project requires a combination; a stiff end for the
programmers and a flexible end for teachers, so I'm using a
velocity-based approach to interface them. See
http://virtualschool.edu/jile.
In other words I agree. I've even gone as far as to say JSP is just
bone-headed. I really wish Sun would back off of that.
--
Brad Cox, PhD; bcox@virtualschool.edu 703 361 4751
o For industrial age goods there were checks and credit cards.
For everything else there is http://virtualschool.edu/mybank
o Java Interactive Learning Environment http://virtualschool.edu/jile
o Java Web Application Architecture: http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa
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